Podcast Summary: "The Brothers Trump" — The Political Scene | The New Yorker (July 14, 2017)

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This episode, hosted by Dorothy Wickenden with guest John Cassidy, centers on breaking revelations about Donald Trump Jr.'s 2016 meeting with a Russian lawyer who offered "dirt" on Hillary Clinton, the subsequent implications for the Trump administration, and the mounting Russia investigation. The discussion explores the fallout for Trump’s inner circle, especially Donald Trump Jr. and Jared Kushner, the administration’s attempts at damage control, and the broader political and Republican response.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Background: The Russia Meeting Emerges

• Context: Donald Trump Jr. released emails confirming his willingness to meet a Russian lawyer who claimed to have compromising information about Hillary Clinton “as part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.” Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort also attended.

  • Dorothy Wickenden [01:21]: "This week, Donald Trump Jr released email correspondence... just after Trump secured the Republican nomination that shows him eagerly agreeing to meet with a Russian lawyer who promised dirt from the Russian government on Hillary Clinton."

• Significance: This is positioned as the most explosive revelation so far in the Russia investigation, showing direct intent by key campaign figures to collude or at least hear what the Russians had to offer.

  • John Cassidy [04:17]: "That’s the sensational news of the week and the most sensational news which has come out so far in the entire Russian investigation."

2. Collusion and Evidence of Intent

• The Emails: The intermediary, Rob Goldstone, described the information as “very high level and sensitive,” and Donald Jr. responded, "I love it."

  • Wickenden [04:29]: "That is collusion, is it not?"
  • Cassidy [04:46]: "Well, it’s certainly willingness to talk about collusion and see what the Russians have got... The question of intent to collude has now been settled, at least for Trump Jr."

• Trump Camp’s Defense: The administration has repeatedly denied interference and collusion, but now the facts are less ambiguous.

  • Wickenden [05:57]: "They denied that there was interference in the election, then they denied collusion. Now, thanks to Donald Jr. it’s clear that... there was in effect collusion."

• Shifting Stories: The White House's fallback is now that the meeting didn’t result in actionable collusion, minimizing intent.

  • Cassidy [06:43]: "They’ve admitted the meeting took place... The fallback position seems to be okay. We attempted to collude, but it didn’t come to anything. So it didn’t mean anything."

3. Trump’s Style of Politics

• Business as Usual: Trump’s New York tabloid and reality TV background shapes his unorthodox, open approach—even to secretive dealings.
  • Cassidy [08:07]: "It sort of shows how the two sides of the Trump world continue to intersect... most presidential candidates... would at the very least look twice at [such a meeting]... Whereas here they say, come right into Trump Tower..."

4. Why This Benefits the Kremlin

• Having high-level Trump campaign figures eager to coordinate openly gave the Russian government leverage and plausible deniability.
  • Cassidy [09:42]: "It’s the campaign manager... It’s the President’s trusted adviser... Apparently, we learned today that the meeting was conducted in Russia. Now it seems pretty hard to me to forget a meeting that was conducted in Russia..."

5. Trump Sr.’s Response and Timeline

• Defending the Meeting: Trump Sr. publicly claimed many people would have taken the meeting.

  • Wickenden [10:56]: "Donald Trump Sr... told Reuters, 'I think many people would have held that meeting.'"

• Circumstantial Evidence: Cassidy links public Trump statements to the timeline of the meeting, suggesting foreknowledge.

  • Cassidy [11:09]: "Seems sort of beggar belief that the President’s son would take a meeting with Russians and not inform his father... There’s also some circumstantial evidence in the timeline."

6. Internal Fallout and Blame-Shifting

• The Fall Guy Theory: Discussion of whether Trump Jr. is being positioned as the scapegoat to protect Kushner and others closer to official power.
  • Wickenden [12:56]: "You wrote right after the leak of the Donald Jr. emails, speculating it might be part of a White House strategy to make him the fall guy."
  • Cassidy [13:06]: "One theory is that Kushner... is an attempt to protect Kushner and put the blame onto Donald Jr., who isn’t a member of the administration..."

7. Deeper Collusion: Digital Operations & Bots

• Allegations (still unproven but under investigation) concern possible coordination between Trump’s digital campaign (overseen by Kushner) and Russian actors using targeted fake news and bots.
  • Cassidy [15:04]: "There may have been some sort of collusion between Trump’s digital campaign... and the Russians in targeting voters with fake news, anti-Hillary stories..."

8. White House Chaos and Factionalism

• Disunity: Reports of lawyer Mark Kasowitz possibly quitting, internal infighting, and family vs. establishment tension.

  • Cassidy [16:39]: "Instead, it seems to be factions, internecine fighting, and really sort of every man for himself..."

• Pence’s Distance: Vice President Pence is quietly safeguarding his own position and cultivating relationships on Capitol Hill.

  • Cassidy [18:26]: "Ever since Trump fired Comey, Pence... seems to have been quietly trying to distance himself from all this..."

9. What’s Next: Manafort Hearings and GOP Reactions

• Upcoming Congressional hearings for Paul Manafort; speculation he’ll invoke the Fifth Amendment to avoid self-incrimination.

  • Cassidy [19:25]: "The big question is whether he’s going to take the Fifth Amendment... If he does, that would be a great embarrassment... But would that persuade Republicans to start deserting Trump en masse? No, I don’t think it would."

• Reluctant GOP: Republican lawmakers remain publicly loyal—the fear of Trump’s base keeps them in line despite mounting scandals.

  • Cassidy [20:46]: "Trump is enabling the Republicans to push through or try to push through their policy agenda... A lot of Republicans are still terrified of Trump’s base and being challenged in their own districts."

10. Broader Political Context

• Public Sentiment: Trump’s overall approval remains around 40%, and the sustained support from his base limits Republican defection.

  • Cassidy [21:44]: "Inside the Republican Party and at the grassroots... those things do still attract a lot of support... If you go against Trump... they’ll come after you."

• Disconnect: The political media and Washington are hyper-focused, but much of the country is less engaged, especially amid summer distractions.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Cassidy [02:36]: "Covering Trump’s a bit like being in the armed forces. You never know when the next air raid’s going to sound. And this was a big, a big air raid this week."
• Cassidy [13:06]: "[The Fall Guy Theory] makes sense for the White House to set up Don Jr. as the fall guy here."
• Cassidy [16:39]: "It seems to be factions, internecine fighting, and really sort of every man for himself."
• Cassidy [18:26]: "Pence, quite sensibly, seems to have been quietly trying to distance himself from all this."
• Cassidy [19:25]: "The President’s former campaign director taking the Fifth Amendment in order to avoid incriminating himself in front of the cameras... would be a great embarrassment."

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:21] — Overview of the newly released Trump Jr. emails
• [04:29] — Collusion and credibility of the Russian meeting
• [08:07] — Trump’s business-to-politics ethos
• [09:42] — High-level campaign involvement and Russian leverage
• [10:56] — Trump Sr. defends the meeting and implications of the timeline
• [13:06] — Discussion of the “fall guy” theory regarding Don Jr.
• [15:04] — Digital campaign collusion, Cambridge Analytica, and bots
• [16:39] — White House internal chaos and legal fallout
• [18:26] — Pence’s positioning and GOP relationships
• [19:25] — Anticipation of Manafort’s testimony, GOP loyalty analysis
• [21:44] — National sentiment, GOP calculus, and the disconnect

Conclusion

This episode offers a sharp, insider look at the Trump-Russia scandal at a critical point, focusing on the human dynamics at the top of Trumpworld, the implications for governance, and the continued uncertainty in political and legal fallout. With a balance of reporting, analysis, and dry wit, Cassidy and Wickenden unpack one of the most consequential political stories of the Trump era, providing context crucial for understanding both the moment and the players involved.