Podcast Summary:

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: “The Fox News Defamation Lawsuit: ‘Money, Ideology, Truth, Lies—It’s All Right There’”
Date: March 4, 2023
Host: Susan Glasser
Panelists: Jane Mayer, Evan Osnos

Overview

In this episode, Susan Glasser, Jane Mayer, and Evan Osnos examine the stunning revelations emerging from the Dominion Voting Systems defamation lawsuit against Fox News. The panel unpacks never-before-seen depositions, emails, and texts that expose the network’s internal acknowledgment of election misinformation after 2020, the interplay between money, politics, and media, and the larger implications for the conservative movement and American democracy. The tone is sharp, analytical, and occasionally incredulous as the panelists walk listeners through a “real-life episode of Succession” playing out in American media and politics.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. How Did We Get Here? (03:16–04:43)

• Dominion Voting Systems became the focus of Fox News’s post-2020 election coverage, accused falsely of facilitating voter fraud.
• The lawsuit, filed in March 2021, claims Fox’s coverage was not just damaging to Dominion and its employees, but democracy itself.
• Evan Osnos: “What’s really remarkable about this case…is that it gives you the thing we almost never get, which is the conversation among the participants, behind the scenes…” (03:41)

2. What Was Said On Air vs. In Private (05:07–07:14)

• Fox hosts amplified baseless fraud claims from figures like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani.
• Privately, key Fox figures did not believe these claims. Carlson called Powell “lying, a crazy person, an unguided missile” (06:20), and Rupert Murdoch described Giuliani’s statements as “really crazy stuff and damaging” (06:55).
• The gap between public promotion and private skepticism is a central element of the Dominion lawsuit.

3. Discovery Unveils Fox’s Internal Calculus (07:14–10:15)

• Unlike most corporations, Fox didn’t settle the suit, allowing damning internal communications to become public.
• Jane Mayer: “Dominion is not accepting settlement. They actually want this dirty laundry out there. And I think it’s to all of our benefit.” (07:39)
• The result is unprecedented access to Fox’s internal deliberations—“basically like a real-life episode of Succession.” (08:28)

4. Revelatory Details from the Filings (08:44–13:58)

• Evan’s pick: Murdoch’s suggestion that top hosts could “stop the Trump myth” by accepting Biden’s win, but CEO Suzanne Scott warned against “pissing off the viewers”—so no action was taken (09:15).
• Jane’s pick: Murdoch’s statement about “MyPillow man” on Fox: “It’s not red, not blue, it’s green” (10:32) — underscoring that profit, not ideology, is paramount.
• Susan’s pick: Murdoch’s post-Jan 6th email: “We want to make Donald Trump a non-person,” acknowledging his desire to pivot the network away from Trump, but finding it impossible due to audience loyalty (11:19).

5. Who Really Controls Fox and the Republican Party? (12:36–17:38)

• The panel agrees it’s the base, not Trump or Murdoch, driving Fox’s direction.
• Fox’s failed attempt to pivot to Ron DeSantis highlights their struggle—despite network backing, the audience remains pro-Trump.
• Jane Mayer: “You…have spun up [the base] into such an angry mob that they then have to keep catering to them…for fear that they’ll lose the viewers and then start losing money.” (12:36)
• Jane: Describes Fox’s efforts to manufacture enthusiasm for DeSantis, but with little evidence the audience is budging (16:08).

6. Legal Stakes and the Issue of Malice (19:21–22:21)

• Achieving a “actual malice” legal standard is hard, but evidence here is unusually strong.
• Jane Mayer: “If this is not actual malice, it’s hard to say what is…you can see…Fox…understood that what they were saying was false and they decided to say it anyway.” (19:46)
• Evan Osnos: “This is a case in which the emails and the text messages…tell the tale.” (20:57)

7. Is Fox News Actually "News"? (21:55–30:07)

• Debate over whether Fox deserves the label “news,” given documented internal disregard for truth.
• Jane Mayer: “Fair and balanced…was invented to confuse people.” (29:47)
• Panel agrees that the lawsuit helps distinguish serious journalism from organizations prioritizing profit or politics over truth.

8. Broader Implications: Media, Power, and Access (25:44–28:53)

• Republicans increasingly bypass independent media, funneling information through ideological channels like Fox.
• Jane Mayer: “The actual serious, fair-minded news organizations are being shoved out…because the conservative wing of the Republican party won’t deal with them anymore.” (27:15)
• Brief note: Defensive comparison to Democratic presidents, with panel cautioning against false equivalence.

9. Lessons & Likely Aftermath (30:07–33:50)

• Internal Fox documents will serve as a “storehouse of information” for understanding American political history (30:07).
• Expect “someone to be tossed overboard” as Fox seeks to deflect and contain the fallout (30:54).
• Relationship between Fox and Trump remains transactional; if Trump becomes the GOP nominee, Fox may fall “right back in again.”
• Jane Mayer: “If that’s where the viewers are and that’s where the dollars are.” (33:29)
• Susan Glasser closes: “Evan, the color is green.” (33:50)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “What’s really remarkable about this case…is that it gives you the thing we almost never get, which is the conversation among the participants, behind the scenes…”
  —Evan Osnos (03:41)

• “Dominion is not accepting settlement. They actually want this dirty laundry out there. And I think it’s to all of our benefit.”
  —Jane Mayer (07:39)

• “It’s not red, not blue, it’s green.”
  —Rupert Murdoch (as quoted by Jane Mayer) (10:32)

• “We want to make Donald Trump a non-person.”
  —Rupert Murdoch (as quoted by Susan Glasser) (11:19)

• “The people running Fox have no compunction about lying. They are trying to figure out how many lies do they need to tell in order to keep their audience so that they don’t lose the ratings.”
  —Jane Mayer (10:15)

• “Turns out it’s not really either [Murdoch or Trump]. It’s the base. It’s the viewers who they have created…”
  —Jane Mayer (12:36)

• “If this is not actual malice, it’s hard to say what is.”
  —Jane Mayer (19:46)

• “There is a way in which he [McCarthy] knows that by releasing this information, it’s going to be a massive distraction from what is actually the heart of American politics…”
  —Evan Osnos (26:23)

• “Fair and balanced…was invented to confuse people.”
  —Jane Mayer (29:47)

• “We have to lead our viewers, which is not as easy as it might seem.”
  —Rupert Murdoch to Lachlan Murdoch (as quoted by Evan Osnos) (32:08)

• “If Donald Trump takes off again…you will see Fox buy right back in again if that’s where the viewers are and that’s where the dollars are.”
  —Jane Mayer (33:29)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:16–04:43 — Historical background to the lawsuit.
• 05:07–07:14 — What Fox aired vs. what was believed internally.
• 07:14–10:15 — The impact of discovery and why Fox didn’t settle.
• 08:44–13:58 — Panelists’ favorite damning details from the case.
• 15:03–17:38 — Fox’s attempted pivot to DeSantis and the challenge of the pro-Trump base.
• 19:21–22:21 — The legal challenge: actual malice.
• 21:55–30:07 — What counts as “news”; the lawsuit’s media implications.
• 25:44–28:53 — Media bypass and the implications for political communication.
• 30:07–33:50 — Lessons, possible Fox responses, and the ongoing Trump-Fox dynamic.

Conclusion

This episode offers a clear-eyed, often caustic, and thoroughly informed analysis of the Dominion-Fox News suit, the internal machinations exposed by court filings, and what this all means for the future of political media, the Republican Party, and American democracy. The revelations show a network motivated by profits and ratings, not facts—a reality its executives both admit and struggle to navigate as their audience’s priorities reshape right-wing politics in real time.