The Generation Game

Summary

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The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: The Generation Game
Date: November 12, 2015
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guests: Hendrik Hertzberg, Evan Osnos

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dorothy Wickenden is joined by New Yorker staff writers Hendrik Hertzberg and Evan Osnos to dissect how the concept of generational change is influencing the 2016 presidential race, particularly focusing on Marco Rubio’s positioning as the “next generation” candidate versus Hillary Clinton’s embrace of identity politics and experience. The conversation delves into the strategic use of age and generational rhetoric, the evolving role of the “gender card,” the complex politics of immigration, and the responses of college-age voters.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Generational Choice” in 2016 ([01:42] – [03:17])

• Rubio's Core Message: Rubio is consistently framing the 2016 election as a generational choice, asserting that Republicans must adapt to 21st-century challenges, especially in the economy.

  • “He is trying to make the case that in order for there to be a Republican president, they need to talk about the economy in new ways...facing a fundamentally structurally different economy than their parents’ generation faced.” – Evan Osnos [02:34]

• Threat to Clinton: Rubio is perceived as a unique threat to Clinton—not because of experience, but because he embodies a “youthful” alternative with a claim to the future.

  • Hendrik Hertzberg: While Rubio’s youth is an asset, it also raises questions of credibility, as he "looks even younger than he actually is" [03:17].
  • Dorothy Wickenden: “But youth can look callow. Won’t Hillary use that against him?” [03:53]

2. Identity Politics: Gender vs. Generation ([03:57] – [05:36])

• Clinton’s Strategy Evolution: Unlike 2008, Clinton is now “embracing the gender card,” highlighting her role as a woman, mother, and grandmother, resonating with voters seeking historic change.

  • “She talks about being a grandmother...what Rubio is trying to do...is, as Rubio puts it, 'yesterday is over.'” – Evan Osnos [04:38]

• Dueling Excitement: While Rubio’s youth represents newness, Clinton’s campaign leverages her potential as a historic first female president.

  • "The very fact that she’s female is an exciting thing...I think as election day approaches, it’s going to become more and more of a factor." – Hendrik Hertzberg [03:57]

3. Immigration as a Party Dividing Line ([05:36] – [08:01])

• Rubio’s Challenge: Rubio is depicted as walking a tightrope—once for comprehensive reform, now straddling hardline policies pressed by Trump’s influence.

  • “Immigration is going to turn out to be...a kind of MRI issue that peers into the soul of the party.” – Evan Osnos [06:04]

• Republican Stance: The discussion notes the “hysteria” in the primary—no candidate downplaying the issue, despite data illustrating declining undocumented immigration.

  • “No Republican is saying, look, this isn’t that big a deal. Our real problem is economic, and then just kind of pivot to something else instead. Everyone has sort of signed onto the idea that this is an occasion for hysteria.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [07:24]

4. Historical Precedents: Experience vs. Hope ([08:46] – [10:21])

• Classic Lines Compared:

  • Ronald Reagan’s 1984 zinger about Mondale’s “youth and inexperience” [08:57]
  • The subsequent victories of younger candidates (Bill Clinton in 1992, Obama in 2008) show “experience” isn’t always a winning card.

• Shifting Roles: Clinton is repackaging herself (from “mother” in 2008 to “grandmother” in 2016), presenting a warmer, more relatable persona.

  • “If you think of her as a grandmother, you think of a cute little baby bouncing on grandma’s knee, and it’s a much warmer thing.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [09:28]
  • "One can almost imagine Hillary being able to get away with patting Marco Rubio on the head and saying, 'That’s a good boy.'" – Hendrik Hertzberg [10:16]

5. Campus Perspectives & The Enthusiasm Gap ([10:21] – [12:06])

• Student Detachment: At Dartmouth, students from both left and right display tepid interest in the field. There’s “quiet satisfaction” for Clinton among liberals, but nowhere near the excitement that surrounded Obama.

  • “Neither the Dartmouth Review kids nor their equivalent on the left are excited about this election...nobody has caught their imagination.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [11:18]

• Support for Clinton: Even Bernie Sanders’ supporters expect to back Clinton eventually, but without fervor.

6. Rubio as “GOP Obama” ([12:06] – [13:58])

• Media & Party Comparisons: Rubio’s profile—first-term senator, lawyer, rapid presidential run—draws parallels to Obama, leading critics to call him a “GOP Obama.”

  • “One of the biggest knocks on Rubio among his fellow Republicans is that they say he is a, quote, GOP Obama.” – Evan Osnos [12:22]
  • Osnos notes that while Rubio attempts to generate “inspiration,” he hasn’t yet achieved Obama’s level of grassroots enthusiasm.

• A Quote on Perception: “He might fall victim to that great quip of Michael Kinsley’s about Al Gore. He’s an old person’s idea of a young person.” – Hendrik Hertzberg [13:31]

• Audience Effect: Rubio resonates more with older voters at rallies than with younger or diverse crowds.

7. Rubio’s Foreign Policy Positioning ([13:58] – [15:05])

• More Hawkish than Most: Rubio calls for a strong military and maintaining America’s unique global role, differentiating himself from less interventionist voices like Rand Paul.
  • “He talks...about the need to maintain America’s exclusive and unique role in the world and to ‘rebuild the military.’” – Evan Osnos [14:00]
• Generational Irony: Although Rubio promotes generational change domestically, his foreign policy vision is cast as more traditional, aligning with older Republican ideals.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This election is actually a generational choice, a choice about what kind of nation we will be in the 21st century.”
  – Marco Rubio (quoted by Dorothy Wickenden) [01:42]

• “It’s a silk purse sow’s ear argument in a sense. I mean, the problem with Rubio is that he’s inexperienced and young and wet behind the ears. And in fact, he looks even younger than he actually is.”
  – Hendrik Hertzberg [03:17]

• “Immigration is going to turn out to be, in its own way, a kind of MRI issue that peers into the soul of the party.”
  – Evan Osnos [06:04]

• “No Republican is saying, look, this isn’t that big a deal. Our real problem is economic...Everyone has sort of signed onto the idea that this is an occasion for hysteria.”
  – Hendrik Hertzberg [07:24]

• “He’s an old person’s idea of a young person.”
  – Hendrik Hertzberg, via Michael Kinsley on Al Gore (applied to Rubio) [13:31]

• “What Obama managed to achieve in 2008...was this almost kind of celestial sense of possibility and expectation. That’s clearly what the Rubio campaign is trying to do...but there really isn’t that electric feeling of inspiration that comes around so rarely in politics.”
  – Evan Osnos [12:31]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:42 – 03:17: Rubio’s “generational choice” narrative introduced and dissected
• 03:53 – 05:36: Gender vs. generational excitement in campaign strategy
• 05:36 – 08:01: Immigration’s role in the GOP race and party identity
• 08:46 – 10:21: Historical precedents—how age and “hope” have played in past elections
• 10:21 – 12:06: Dartmouth student perspectives on the enthusiasm gap
• 12:06 – 13:58: Rubio as “GOP Obama”—strengths and skepticism
• 13:58 – 15:05: Rubio’s foreign policy stances and generational messaging

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Tone and Style

• The conversation is informed, analytical, and laced with characteristic New Yorker wit.
• Each speaker is candid and occasionally wry, employing lightly sardonic humor (Hertzberg) and observational detail (Osnos) to enrich the political analysis.
• The mood is engaged but not breathlessly excited, paralleling the nonchalance described among student voters.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

This is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about politics. It's Thursday, November 12th. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker. On Tuesday night's Republican presidential debate in Milwaukee, one of the moderators asked Florida Senator Marco Rubio about Hillary Clinton. Why should the American people trust you to lead this country, even though she has been so much closer to the office?

[C]

Well, that's a great question. This election is actually a generational choice, a choice about what kind of nation we will be in the 21st century. And the Democratic Party and the political left has no ideas about the future future.

[B]

Hendrick Hertzberg and Evan Osnos join me to discuss how the generation gap can affect presidential elections. Evan Rubio likes to make this point. Actually, he makes it again and again, and apparently the Clinton campaign fears him more than any of the other candidates. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[C]

Yeah. This is really at the core of his message. Partly, this is about his own fellow Republicans. He is, after all, second youngest candidate in the race after Bobby Jindal, who's Not really getting any traction. And he's also talking, of course, about Hillary Clinton. If she is nominated, she would be the oldest nominee the Democrats have ever put forward for a general election. And he's trying to stake out some territory now. But there's also a substantive element to this, and this is really about a difference between him and some of his fellow Republicans. He is trying to make the case that in order for there to be a Republican president, they need to talk about the economy in new ways. They need to be talking about the poor and the middle class facing a fundamentally structurally different economy than their parents generation faced. He laces through his speeches the sense that, you know, we're not facing the same challenges we were a generation ago. This is the 21st century. And he mentions that over and over again.

[B]

So what about that, Rick? How much of a threat could he pose to Hillary Clinton?

[D]

I certainly agree with Evan and with the Republicans generally who believe that Rubio is the strongest candidate they could nominate. It's a silk purse sow's ear argument in a sense. I mean, the problem with Rubio is that he's inexperienced and young and wet behind the ears. And in fact, he looks even younger than he actually is.

[B]

He looks like a choir boy.

[D]

He does. Or freshman. Everything but the beanie. But I guess he's the only one on the Republican side, isn't he, Evan, that really has that card in his hand, the generation card.

[B]

But youth can look callow. Won't Hillary use that against him?

[D]

I don't think directly, no. But she has her own card to play against, the youth card. And that of course is the gender card. So there's an identity based way in which Hillary is an exciting candidate that doesn't require her to be young or of a particular color or anything like that. The very fact that she's female is an exciting thing. It may not look that way so much now, but I think as election day approaches, it's going to become more and more of a factor and it's going to get people more and more excited because it really would be a historic thing.

[B]

It's interesting, Evan, that she did not play the gender card when she ran against Obama, and she's been using it from the beginning in this campaign.

[C]

Yeah, I think she's embraced it in a way that is really connecting with people. If you remember, of course, in 2008, she'd received this advice that she should never present herself from the perspective of a woman. She shouldn't talk about her role as a mother. And so on her advisors encouraged her to be more like Margaret Thatcher. And then this time she's just not doing any of that. She talks about being a grandmother. Yeah. I think what's interesting, and Rick touched on this in such an interesting point, is that what Rubio is trying to do and the message that they'll be using is, as Rubio puts it, quote, yesterday is over, unquote. And the strange thing is that works much better in this Republican primary when you're running against somebody with the last name Bush than it does against what would be an historic breakthrough election. And I think that's really going to be a problem. There's a danger for a Marco Rubio sitting on that stage trying to make the case that a guy in a necktie represents the future compared to somebody who really would represent a completely new period in American political life.

[B]

We've talked a little bit about the issue of immigration, Evan, before, although not exactly in this context. And it seems to me that Donald Trump's most astonishing contribution to this campaign has been the way he has forced virtually all of the Republican candidates to take the most punitive line, despite the fact that there isn't a massive surge of immigrants at the border or that it's really on most voters minds. Rubio seems to be trying to have it both ways. In fact, he is having it both ways at the moment. He's done a complete flip flop on the issue.

[C]

Yeah, I think immigration is going to turn out to be, in its own way, a kind of MRI issue that peers into the soul of the party. And the numbers are clear. Actually, the number of undocumented immigrants coming over the border today is lower than it has been in over a decade. Obviously, as a lot of people know, the people who are coming over the border tend to be coming from Central America and elsewhere. But over the last couple of years, partly because there was this crisis of children coming across the border last summer, it focused media attention and particularly in the conservative press on the issue. And it became, in its own way, a litmus test for candidates who were going to run for president. The party was trying to come into this race by presenting a more open face, by saying we're a more inclusive spirit. They were going to try to, of course, embrace Hispanic voters as much as they could. Then Donald Trump comes in and brings that process to a halt. And he forced all of his fellow candidates to come up with a position on immigration that would potentially allow them to draw in some of these crucial Hispanic voters, while at the same time not alienating conservative voters who have been acculturated over the last couple of years to expect that anything less than a very hard line policy on immigration is a dangerous compromise.

[D]

It surprises me that none of these Republican candidates have taken the view that immigration, as Evan has just been saying, isn't that big a deal. Republicans seem divided between the sky is falling, it's horrible, we're being overrun, the Trump line and the line that it would be Inhuman to deport 11 million people. No Republican is saying, look, this isn't that big a deal. Our real problem is economic, and then just kind of pivot to something else instead. Everyone has sort of signed onto the idea that this is an occasion for hysteria.

[E]

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[C]

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[B]

And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show, Uncanny Valley is all about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[E]

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[C]

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[B]

I want to get back to this idea about experience and hope and change because it comes back periodically. There was the unforgettable line that Reagan used in the 1984 debate with Walter Mondale.

[D]

I want you to know that also, I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience.

[B]

But it often works the other way around. In 1992, the very young Bill Clinton beat the incumbent Bush. Fleetwood Mac, actually, is still ringing in my ears. And then, of course, there was Obama versus McCain in 2008. So it often hasn't turned turned out well for the more experienced candidate.

[D]

No, in fact, it helps if the old guy is not running for reelection. It works a lot better when there's an empty seat there. But about half the elections we've had, I guess, in the last half century or so have had some generational angle to them. And this one, certainly it will. If Marco Rubio is a Republican candidate and Hillary has subtly transformed. Eight years ago she campaigned as a mother, and now she's campaigning as a grandmother. When you think of Hillary as a mother, I'm afraid you think of the somewhat entitled Chelsea. But if you think of her as a grandmother, you think of a cute little baby bouncing on grandma's knee, and it's a much warmer thing. And one can almost imagine Hillary being able to get away with patting Marco Rubio on the head and saying, that's a good boy.

[B]

You're at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire, which is going to be crucial, of course, where you've been witnessing the generation gap, talking to students. Hillary Clinton did speak on campus this week. How was she received?

[D]

Well, she got a full house. She the biggest auditorium at Dartmouth, 900 people. She gave a talk on the economy. A very straightforward, confident speech. Not exciting, but it held your attention. And during the more informal parts of the program, she was quite charming. And, you know, at the beginning, she said she'd been to Dartmouth. Before that, when she was at Wellesley, she had a blind date up here for her winter carnival, and she said that the date was just okay, but the carnival was excellent.

[B]

You also met yesterday, among others, with members of the Dartmouth Review, the quite conservative student newspaper founded in 1980 by Dinesh D'. Souza. When you chatted with those students, what were their feelings about the election?

[D]

Neither the Dartmouth Review kids nor their equivalent on the left are excited about this election. They're not in any sort of despair. They're just rather detached from it. There's nobody that's caught their imagination. Among the Dartmouth Review kids, there was one leaning to Cruz, surprisingly, and the rest were divided among so Rubio and Bush.

[B]

Was there any excitement among the more liberal crowd about Hillary?

[D]

In a very calm, detached way, yes. But even the ones who are for Bernie don't have any ill feelings toward Hillary and they're expecting to eventually support Hillary. And there's a certain sort of quiet satisfaction about Hillary's candidacy. It's not exciting. There's nothing to compare to the excitement that surrounded Obama.

[B]

For example, speaking of which, Obama really gave Republicans in this election their talking points back in 2008.

[C]

Senator Clinton, I think, equates experience with longevity in Washington. I don't think the American people do.

[D]

And I don't think that if you.

[C]

Look at the judgments that we've made over the last several years, that that's the accurate measure. Yeah. I can tell you that one of the biggest knocks on Rubio among his fellow Republicans is that they say he is a, quote, GOP Obama. And what they mean by that is they're both first term senators. They're Both lawyers who taught at universities and came to Washington and then very promptly ran for president. I will point out that some in Rubio's camp will say, well, look, if you're telling us that we're the Republican Obama, and that means we get to win two terms as president and infuriate the opposing party with our legislative agenda, well, then we're fine with that. What Obama managed to achieve in 2008, which was this almost kind of celestial sense of possibility and expectation, that's clearly what the Rubio campaign is trying to do. And I can tell you from being out on the road, what you see so far is not a level of excitement. There's a sense that, sure, he's talking a little differently, but there really isn't that electric feeling of inspiration that comes around so rarely in politics.

[D]

Yeah. And he might fall victim to that great quip of Michael Kinsley's about Al Gore. He's an old person's idea of a young person.

[C]

Absolutely. What I've noticed, Rick, is that he plays best with older crowds, and he kills it with those crowds. He really does well. And then when he gets into a little bit more of a mixed crowd and he has to do something different, he's not quite as nimble.

[B]

Evan, how's he doing on foreign policy?

[C]

He's taking out a position that is more hawkish than his peers. So he talks, for instance, about the need to maintain America's exclusive and unique role in the world and to quote, unquote, rebuild the military. What's interesting is that this is, and you saw this in the debate the other night, a response to Rand Paul. Rand Paul, who has spent the last few years making the case that the United States overextended itself over the last 10, 12 years and that it needs to fundamentally reimagine its role in the world. And there was a feeling among some of us, I think, a year or two ago that Rand Paul may be tapping into something among young voters that people had been raised in the generation after 9, 11, and were just absolutely sick of it. And actually, he hasn't gained traction with that. I think Rubio has gamed out that really the core Republican message, which is still strong, military. The United States is a special country, as he says over and over. That's the case he's going to make. In some ways, that's not a generational message. That's actually a message that's much more consistent with his forefathers than it is with anything that young voters are talking about now.

[B]

Okay, thank you both very much.

[C]

Thanks, Dorothy.

[D]

Thanks, Dorothy.

[B]

Hendrik Hertzberg and Evan Osnos are New Yorker staff writers. Rick is the author of the Birth of a New Political Era, and Evan is the author of Age of Chasing Fortune, Truth and Faith in the New China. This has been the Political Scene from the New Yorker. I'm Dorothy Wickenden.

[C]

You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts in the iTunes store. You can find past episodes of the New Yorker out loud, the Political Scene, and the New Yorker's fiction and poetry [e-mail] podcast the weekly audio edition of the New Yorker is [e-mail] this podcast is produced by Jill Duboff and Alex Barron. Foreign.

[E]

I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global Editorial director.

[C]

I'm Michael Kollori, Wired's Director of Consumer, Tech and Culture.

[B]

And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show Uncanny Valley is about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[E]

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[C]

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[B]

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[D]

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