The Hypocrisies of the TikTok Hearings

Summary

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The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: The Hypocrisies of the TikTok Hearings

Date: March 30, 2023

Host: Tyler Foggatt
Guest: Kyle Chayka

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Overview

This episode analyzes the recent congressional hearings on TikTok, exploring concerns over the app’s addictive design, its influence on young Americans, and—most pressingly—its ties to the Chinese government. Tyler Foggatt interviews New Yorker technology columnist Kyle Chayka to unpack the political theatrics, underlying hypocrisies, and complex realities behind efforts to ban or regulate the wildly popular social media platform.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Context and Motivations Behind the Hearings

• The hearings featured a dramatic confrontation between U.S. lawmakers and TikTok CEO Shou Zi Chew, marked by emotional questioning and "maneuvering" for political advantage ([02:26], [02:56]).
• Foggatt frames the primary legislative concern: "What sets TikTok apart...is not only its content but its ties to the Chinese government" ([01:16]).
• Three main areas of concern emerged:
  1. Chinese government influence via ByteDance ([03:41])
  2. Addictiveness of social media (not unique to TikTok)
  3. Impact on American children and societal manipulation

"You can't say that only TikTok creates dangerous memes or that only TikTok is addictive. So all of the concerns...could be just as easily said of Instagram and Twitter and Facebook..."
— Kyle Chayka [04:50]

2. What Makes TikTok Distinctive?

• Chayka acknowledges TikTok’s particularly addictive algorithm and viral capabilities, though he notes Instagram Reels attempts to emulate this ([05:32]).
• The Chinese ownership of TikTok is seen as a unique concern, especially regarding data surveillance and algorithm manipulation ([06:15], [07:27]).
• Foggatt points out the generational divide: younger users are "used to this idea, if not comfortable, that everything they're doing is being tracked" ([09:48]).

"For the vast majority of the users, any trade off for data security or this involvement with China is completely worth it for social media's best algorithmic feed..."
— Kyle Chayka [09:02]

3. The Hypocrisy and Hysteria of Regulation

• The episode highlights Congressional misunderstanding of basic tech concepts ("Does TikTok connect to WiFi?") ([12:13]).
• Lawmakers' concerns about addictiveness and harmful content are not unique to TikTok but apply to broader social media.

"If TikTok is such a concern with surveillance, why isn't that kind of uncanny targeted advertising a concern with American companies? I think that kind of hypocrisy was really on display at the TikTok hearing."
— Kyle Chayka [10:20]

• Chayka suggests TikTok’s Chinese ownership makes it an easy scapegoat compared to American tech firms ([11:11]).

4. Congressional Performance and Public Perception

• The hearings, according to Chayka, "inspired little faith in social media or in Congress" ([11:56]).
• Users and some politicians, like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC), push back, advocating for TikTok as a space for free speech ([13:27]).

"Do I believe TikTok should be banned? No. Why...the United States has never before banned a social media company from existence, from operating in our borders. And this is an app that has over 150 million Americans on it."
— Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez [13:27]

• The hearings inadvertently bolstered support for TikTok and its CEO among users, with Chew becoming something of a TikTok folk hero ([13:53]-[15:03]).

5. Algorithmic Design and User Attraction

• TikTok’s success lies in decoupling popularity from followership; anyone’s video can go viral through the recommendation algorithm ([15:14]).
• The platform’s tailored "For You" feed is described as uniquely compelling ([15:39]).

"The feed is super addictive...it conforms to your desires and acts on this almost subconscious level to show you what you're thinking about."
— Kyle Chayka [15:46]

6. Congressional Knowledge Gap

• Lawmakers struggle to differentiate TikTok-specific cultural memes from internet-wide phenomena (e.g., the "NyQuil Chicken Challenge") ([17:39]-[18:19]).
• Chayka argues that political focus on TikTok's content overrepresents negative aspects, downplaying the app’s positive communities and educational uses ([18:26]).

7. U.S.-China Politics, Double Standards, and Solutions

• Foggatt and Chayka discuss:
  • The performative nature of China-focused fear-mongering ("China Hawk noise making") ([21:45])
  • Irony in the U.S. emulating aspects of China’s stricter digital regulation ([23:43], [24:59])
• Attempts to force a TikTok sale or ban are complicated, with unclear effectiveness in addressing lawmakers' stated concerns ([25:34]).

"A sale just doesn't solve so many of the problems...It doesn’t change the feed. It doesn’t change targeted advertising. It doesn’t change NyQuil Chicken memes.”
— Kyle Chayka [25:34]

8. Consequences of a Ban and Political Fallout

• Banning TikTok could alienate a large, young voter base and become a significant political liability ([26:33]-[28:02]).
• For creators and influencers, migration to other platforms (Instagram, YouTube) is seen as feasible, but it’s average users who are likely to be most affected ([27:56]-[28:02]).

9. Partisan Divides and Bipartisan Panic

• While Republicans are most vocal about national security and Chinese surveillance, both parties participated in the hearings, united in concern but divided on emphasis ([28:25]-[30:28]).
  • Democrats focus on mental health and user experience.
  • Republicans push national security threats and cyber warfare narratives.

"It was an easy thing to dislike. It was an easy thing to make comments on and have a show of force... That guy had a lot on his shoulders that day."
— Kyle Chayka [29:56]

• A minority, like AOC, stress the broader context: concerns about TikTok apply to American tech firms too ([30:48]).

10. Data Protection and U.S. Legislation

• Proposals for wider data protection laws in the U.S. have historically failed, raising doubts about sincere Congressional intent ([31:28]-[31:52]).
• There’s irony in Congress being motivated by China fears, rather than a comprehensive desire for privacy reform ([31:52]).

"It seems very ironic...that they could be so concerned and yet not be bothered to pass any of the even incremental laws that would help people have more control over social media."
— Kyle Chayka [32:19]

• Chayka suggests real reform would involve broader tech regulation, not a TikTok scapegoating ([33:07]).

11. Platform Comparisons and Content Moderation Critique

• TikTok, despite accusations, is relatively effective in content moderation compared to Discord or Twitter under Elon Musk, which have reduced protective measures ([33:47]).
• Chayka advocates for a more pluralistic tech ecosystem and sees competition, not bans, as the healthiest way forward ([35:04]).

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Memorable Quotes

• "If TikTok is such a concern with surveillance, why isn't that kind of uncanny targeted advertising a concern with American companies? I think that kind of hypocrisy was really on display at the TikTok hearing." — Kyle Chayka [10:20]

• "Do I believe TikTok should be banned? No... The United States has never before banned a social media company from existence, from operating in our borders. And this is an app that has over 150 million Americans on it." — Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez [13:27]

• "The feed is super addictive...it conforms to your desires and acts on this almost subconscious level to show you what you're thinking about." — Kyle Chayka [15:46]

• "A sale just doesn't solve so many of the problems that they're bringing up with TikTok. It doesn't change the feed. It doesn't change targeted advertising. It doesn't change NyQuil Chicken memes." — Kyle Chayka [25:34]

• "The concern over TikTok was really bipartisan, and it united a lot of people to the point that many of the representatives made jokes about it. That this was the only bipartisan hearing in the government right now." — Kyle Chayka [29:25]

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Key Timestamps

• 01:16 — Episode framing & Congress’ obsession with TikTok’s Chinese ties
• 02:26–04:30 — Three main Congressional concerns: China ties, addictiveness, harm to children
• 05:20–06:56 — TikTok’s algorithm and viral power; comparison to U.S. platforms
• 08:18–10:20 — Generational privacy attitudes; hypocrisy of U.S. tech surveillance
• 11:56–13:48 — Lack of faith in Congress; Ocasio-Cortez defends TikTok
• 15:14–16:56 — Explaining TikTok’s addictive algorithm and creator appeal
• 17:39–18:26 — Congress’ misunderstanding of internet memes (“NyQuil Chicken Challenge”)
• 21:45–22:45 — Congressional inaction on meaningful tech regulation
• 23:43–24:59 — Ironies and contradictions in U.S. and Chinese social media policies
• 25:34–26:52 — Limitations of banning TikTok; impact on American politics
• 28:25–30:28 — Partisan lines and bipartisan panic
• 31:28–33:07 — Data protection law failures; the real stakes of the TikTok panic
• 33:47–35:04 — Platform moderation contrasts; real reforms needed

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Final Thoughts

This episode exposes the performative, sometimes incoherent nature of Congressional tech hearings—where fear of China, technological illiteracy, and unaddressed American tech issues collide. The panel raises critical questions about the actual dangers of TikTok, the effectiveness and motivations of proposed policies, and the need for broad, consistent data privacy regulation—rather than headline-grabbing bans.

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Recommended listeners:
Anyone interested in tech policy, digital privacy, the intersection of politics and pop culture, or the future of social media regulation.

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Transcript

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[Tyler Foggatt]

You're listening to the political scene. I'm Tyler Foggatt, a senior editor at the New Yorker. US Lawmakers have said that they're moving forward with a plan to ban TikTok, one of the most popular apps in the world. When you hear people talk about the dangers of TikTok, a lot of things tend to come up its impact on attention spans, its addictive algorithms and its memes, which incentivize kids to do ridiculous, sometimes dangerous things for Internet popularity. But what sets TikTok apart from other platforms in the eyes of Congress is not only its content but its ties to the Chinese government. As Speaker Kevin McCarthy recently wrote on Twitter, the House will be moving forward with legislation to protect Americans from the technological tentacles of the Chinese Communist Party. Kyle Chayka writes a column about technology and Internet culture for the New Yorker. You'll hear from him today about the challenges of regulating social media and about how a distraction came to be seen as a national security threat. Kyle, you recently wrote about the TikTok hearings on Capitol Hill for newyorker.com and I'm wondering what your sort of, like, what your takeaway was from that experience of following these congressional hearings.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, the hearing was much more dramatic than I thought it would be. It was kind of a confrontation between the representatives and the TikTok CEO, Sho.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Zi Chu, as I previously referenced, TikTok spied on American journalists. Can you say with 100% certainty that neither ByteDance nor TikTok employees can target other Americans with similar surveillance techniques?

[Kyle Chayka]

Chair Rogers, I first of all disagree with the characterization that is spying. It was an internal investigation.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Yes or no, can you do surveillance?

[Kyle Chayka]

And it became kind of a conflict. It was a lot of dramatic language. It was very emotional. I think Chu stayed very cool and collected, but the lawmakers were certainly trying to take a swing at him any way they could. And the whole episode seemed like a kind of maneuvering between the two parties to get an edge on the other side.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Yeah. So what was, like, the main concern that sparked these hearings? Because obviously a number of things came up during the actual hearings about TikTok's algorithm and its addictiveness and whatnot. But there's also this question of it posing these big national security risks. So I'm wondering what was actually the impetus, at least on paper, to have these hearings?

[Kyle Chayka]

I feel like after the hearings happened or after everyone asked their questions, three major concerns came out, the first of which was the most obvious, which is the Chinese Communist party's influence on TikTok, because TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, is a Chinese company. The second was kind of the addictiveness of social media overall and the stranglehold it has on a lot of our lives and our digital existences and our ways of consuming news and entertainment. And then the third was this running concern about American children and how they're being manipulated by TikTok and by proxy, the Chinese government into doing meme stunts and stealing things from their teachers and all sorts of Internet tomfoolery.

[Tyler Foggatt]

So, you know, after watching the hearings, did you emerge feeling as though one of those three concerns was actually the primary concern? Like, does it seem like, you know, number three, just this idea that TikTok is destroying children and their attention spans and, you know, it's killing them and whatnot? Like, is that actually sort of the reason for all of this?

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, I really feel like all those three reasons were in conflict with each other a little bit, because, particularly, numbers two and three kind of apply to social media in general. You can't say that only TikTok creates dangerous memes or that only TikTok is addictive. So all of the concerns they brought up could be just as easily said of Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and YouTube. They all have the same addictive and manipulative qualities.

[Tyler Foggatt]

TikTok doesn't have especially addictive algorithm. I feel like that's one of the things that comes up with it a lot, is that it's particularly good at giving young people content that they didn't even know they wanted, basically.

[Kyle Chayka]

I do think, yeah, it is particularly addictive and particularly good though. I think Instagram Reels is trying as hard as it possibly can to copy TikTok.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Yeah, I mean, it's just a TikTok ripoff, right?

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah. And I think when you use it, you get the same feeling of being dragged through the feed and kind of urged on to consume more and more and more. And TikTok totally does do that in the most successful way. But I think if you're really so concerned about the addictive qualities of social media, you'd also be just as concerned about the American companies. So in the end, I feel like the concern that stood out the most was this fear of Chinese influence and was the kind of data surveillance and privacy concerns.

[Tyler Foggatt]

And so how exactly does that work? Like the people who are particularly concerned about TikTok, what are their fears in terms of data from American users being turned over by ByteDance to the Chinese government?

[Kyle Chayka]

It seemed like there were various concerns and there's very little evidence that any of those are actually happening currently. So there's definitely a concern about the Chinese government spying on American citizens by absorbing their data that's being tracked by TikTok. And certainly ByteDance might have access to American users data. And it's been reported that TikTok did track the locations of journalists and it's absorbed personal information from a few people. So on that level that's happening. And there's also this concern that the Chinese government could manipulate American citizens or do something like interfere in an election by changing the TikTok for you algorithm. So influencing the audience of 150 million TikTok users by, say, promoting Chinese content more or promoting anti democratic content more.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Isn't there a law in China that basically says that companies have to turn over data to the Chinese government if. If the government asks? I thought that that was part of.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, I don't think you can say that any Chinese company's data is separate from the Chinese government. I don't think there's any way we could ensure that. I don't Think as Americans, certainly we can't guarantee that or even keep watch over it in any way. And also the Chinese government owns a stake in TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, and there are various board members and staff who are members of the Chinese Communist Party. So I think there's a real concern there and there's facts that can be very worrying, but it is this kind of hypothetical threat that we don't really know how much reality it has or not.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Do you have a sense of how aware average users are of this threat? I believe that the US government, for example, doesn't let employees have TikTok on their work phones, which probably shouldn't be on anyone's work phone.

[Kyle Chayka]

But yeah, there is that law and the US and a number of countries now, a growing number that on government phones you can't download TikTok. I don't think privacy is a huge concern for many of TikTok's users, in part because the, the TikTok promise is that it will deliver you exactly what you want at all times based on your constant engagement or lack of engagement with what's on the screen.

[Tyler Foggatt]

No, I have a friend who said like, yeah, I love that it collects my data. I want it to know everything about me because it'll make the content better.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, you want to optimize. But yeah, I think for the vast majority of the users, any trade off for data security or this involvement with China is completely worth it. For social media's best algorithmic feed and the super addictive short form video content and the creator's ability to reach these huge audiences that are on the platform, that's what has made TikTok so successful, is that you don't need tons of followers to go viral. You can actually have a totally random video reach millions of people more or less instantly. And that's something that no other social network is capable of. So it's really an easy trade off to make for a lot of people to just overlook the security concerns.

[Tyler Foggatt]

I also wonder if there's a generational difference there. I feel like younger people in particular are kind of used to this idea, if not comfortable with the idea that everything they're doing is being tracked. I mean, the number of young people who have like find my friends turned on and just at any given moment they can tell you where every single person in their social circle is. I feel like it's kind of astounding. Whereas, I don't know, like my parents, my grandparents are still really worried about someone figuring out, you know, their Social Security number. Whereas, like, I've been taught that, like, you should just operate as though everyone already has your Social Security number.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah. I think younger generations have come to accept that. Plenty of technology companies know where we are, know we're looking at, know or interested in, can tell when someone's going to get married or get pregnant or have a job change. And there's the fear of Instagram listening to you and targeting you with advertising. If TikTok is such a concern with surveillance, why isn't that kind of uncanny targeted advertising a concern with American companies? I think that kind of hypocrisy was really on display at the TikTok hearing.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Yeah. I mean, did they. Did they have a reason for why. Why TikTok? I mean, is it just because TikTok is the biggest, like, in the sense that it was like, the most downloaded app in 2022 and I think it's the most popular entertainment app, just like, in general in the US like, is it just. Let's go after the. The big one.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah. I think it's in part because TikTok has grown so quickly and become this insurgent force in social media. But that would be less of a threat, I think, if it was owned by an American company, because then it would be the symbol of success for Silicon Valley and American technology.

[Tyler Foggatt]

It's bringing jobs.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's American soft power, just like they're claiming that it's Chinese soft power. So both because of its popularity and its rising control of viewers and because of its Chinese origins, I think that's really what made it a target, because all the critiques that they make and the complaints that they make could easily be applied to all social media. And it's really kind of inseparable.

[Tyler Foggatt]

So your piece that you wrote, I believe that in the headline, it was basically the TikTok hearings inspired little faith in social media or in Congress. And I'm wondering if you could explain that a bit specifically, the Congress part, why you came away feeling uninspired.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, I mean, there are two sides to that. I think the CEO Shou Zi Chu did come off as very closed off and repetitive and kind of bland in his answers. And he repeated the same few solutions for why TikTok is not going to be a problem. But then on the representative side, there were a lot of very silly and inexplicable questions about technology, such as one representative who asked if TikTok connected to the home WI FI network and if that might cause a problem. And any app Connects to WI fi. All of our phones are on WI fi all the time. This is just not a relevant inquiry to make. And the questions didn't seem to display much of an understanding of what TikTok was and how it works and who its audience is and why people are so compelled by it. But I think you do see some of that demonstrated by the response to the hearings, which TikTok users kind of cried out that the representatives were being irrelevant and illogical. And people like Alexandria OCASIO Cortez made TikToks about how she thinks TikTok should be preserved as a space of free speech.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

Do I believe TikTok should be banned? No. Why should TikTok not be banned? First of all, I think it's important to discuss how unprecedented of a move this would be. The United States has never before banned a social media company from existence, from operating in our borders. And this is an app that has over 150 million Americans on it.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah. So it made her get on the platform. Actually, it's the hearings.

[Tyler Foggatt]

They're backfiring.

[Kyle Chayka]

The reaction on TikTok itself to the hearings has been really fascinating to watch. And you could kind of see commentary videos popping up as the hearings were happening and users kind of satirized the dumb questions that the representative asked. And lately, in kind of the ensuing days, Sho Zhu Chew has kind of become the TikTok daddy sexy icon who's protecting all of the TikTok users. So there's all these fan montages of clips of him in the interview being very cool and professional. TikTok will remain a place for free expression and will not be manipulated by any government. So the hearing might have improved relations between TikTok and its users and kind of made people recognize that there was this guy, this businessman out there who is actually fighting for their rights in a way, or fighting for the right to access TikTok. So I really am curious what the long term effect of that will be. I think they kind of gave TikTok some bonus points.

[Tyler Foggatt]

I mean, at the risk of sounding like a member of Congress, why is it so influential? How has it been able to garner so much power in such a short period of time?

[Kyle Chayka]

I think it's because of the structure of its algorithmic feed. I think what really set it apart was making the decision that users don't care who they follow. They don't want to make the decision of who to follow. Instead, the recommendation algorithm should figure out exactly what to show people all the time and show them any kind of content across the app that it thinks might be relevant to them.

[Tyler Foggatt]

So, like, I'm going to show you this video from an absolute rando with two followers, because I can tell that this is the sort of thing that you'll go for.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, yeah. So like a random viral video of a stunt in a high school, it doesn't matter if that person has five followers. It's going to show it to millions of people if it's a really good video. And that the promise of that reach and broadcast power is super, super compelling for creators because they don't need to put in so much work up front to find an audience. They can kind of rely on the algorithmic promotion in TikTok to bring them to a wider audience. And on the consumer level, the feed is super addictive. I mean, anyone who knows it, who has used it, knows that it's quite addictive. It conforms to your desires and acts on this almost subconscious level to show you what you're thinking about. And I also think it broke down video content online into a much shorter, more digestible form. So earlier on TikTok videos were a minute or shorter. It kind of forced everyone to condense their content into a more digestible form. And so the kinds of things that got popular on YouTube were also on TikTok, but more accessible and more quickly consumable than they were before.

[Tyler Foggatt]

So you mentioned that it seemed like a lot of members of Congress just didn't really know what they were talking about when it came to TikTok. They seem to have this kind of ambient awareness that TikTok is important, that it's influential, that it might even be determining who votes for them or not for young users who are getting a lot of their information and news from the app, but at the same time, they don't really seem to get how it works. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit more about the specific things they didn't really seem to understand about TikTok. And in general, I mean, do you think that they're, like, missing the actual risks of the app because they're focusing too much on the NyQuil challenge or whatever it's called?

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Well, the.

[Kyle Chayka]

It seemed like the content was a lot of the misunderstanding or the thought that this content was unique to TikTok. So they cited something like the. The quote unquote, Nyquil Challenge, or possibly the nyquil Chicken Challenge, which was a kind of viral semi fake meme stunt in which you cook chicken in nyquil. And this was not meant to be taken Seriously, it's a joke. It's a kind of vintage Internet content where there's something that looks totally disgusting and someone has made it or recorded themselves eating it. So I don't think the Nyquil Chicken Challenge is harming America's children particularly.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Are you willing to go on the record saying that you think that the Nyquil Chicken Challenge is fine?

[Kyle Chayka]

Yes. No one is dying from the NyQuil Chicken Challenge, I don't think. But I think. I mean, the fact that they couldn't separate Internet content overall from what's on TikTok was kind of the most frustrating part. And I think that's what TikTok users who didn't like the hearing were also responding to. It just didn't display an understanding of the kind of online content ecosystem and the fact that misinformation and disinformation exist across the Internet and aren't native to TikTok necessarily. The CEO did really emphasize that there are educational things on TikTok. You can learn stuff, you can connect with people who are like you. And I think the user loyalty does come from how it has generated a huge digital community. It's allowed a lot of niche connections to form. It's built this new area of Internet culture. And the fact that the politicians didn't really recognize those positive sides or were just relentlessly negative turned off a lot of viewers.

[Tyler Foggatt]

You'll hear more from Kalcheka in just a moment.

[Katie Drummond]

What the hell is going on right now and why is it happening like this? At Wired, we're obsessed with getting to the bottom of those questions on a daily basis, and maybe you are, too. I'm Katie Drummond, the global editorial Director of Wired, and I'm hosting our new podcast series, the Big Interview. Each week I'll sit down with some of the most interesting, provocative and influential people who are shaping our right now. Big Interview conversations are fun.

[Kyle Chayka]

I want a shark that.

[Katie Drummond]

That eats the Internet, that turns it all off, unfiltered and unafraid.

[Kyle Chayka]

So in a lot of ways, I try to be an antidote to the unimaginable faucet of reactionary content that you see online. To the best of my ability, every.

[Katie Drummond]

Week, we're going to offer you the ultimate luxury of our times. Meaning and context. True or false. You, Brian Johnson, the man sitting across from me, one day, at some point, as of yet undefined, in the future, you will die. False.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Tell me more.

[Katie Drummond]

Listen to the Big Interview right now in the same place you find WIRED's Uncanny Valley podcast. Subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts.

[Tyler Foggatt]

The way that you're describing these hearings and the reactions to them, it kind of reminds me of like the Facebook hearings way back when. I mean, it seems like every year or so there are these like big tech hearings that Congress gets involved in that are just kind of demoralizing because they reiterate what we all kind of already knew, which is that it seems like the people who are leading our country have no idea how some of the biggest tech platforms work and therefore probably don't really know how to regulate those platforms. I mean, you've been covering technology for a really long time. Do you think that this is something that has gotten better as some of these apps and websites have become more ubiquitous? Or has it gotten worse as like, the age gap between the users and the politicians seems to widen?

[Kyle Chayka]

I think it's gotten worse, which is kind of shocking. We've had social media for quite a while now. It's been a solid 13, 14 years that mainstream social media has existed. And there's been so little reckoning with the algorithmic feed's effect on people. With data regulation, with user privacy. The problems are not new in any way. They're like a decade plus old. And lawmakers have been through these cycles of proposing bills and considering new ways to protect people, and nothing ever goes through. So the ostentatious concern that they show feels kind of false when they continually refuse to do anything about it. So I think in this case it was really the opportunity to do some China Hawk noise making and anti China agitation. That that was what made the hearings so potent in this case.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Yeah. I mean, a lot of people have brought up the xenophobia and racism aspect of the story, which is definitely part of it. But one thing that I've also been curious about is just, I mean, in China, I'm pretty sure TikTok is banned, right? I mean, I think ByteDance, the company that owns TikTok, has a like Chinese version of the app that has been like whittled down to my understanding. I think that similar to, I think in the U.S. tikTok has like a. You can't use it for more than an hour or something if you're under a certain age. And I think that there's like an even more extreme version of that that the Chinese version of TikTok has implemented. But in general, I mean, in China, like, it seems as though TikTok is something that has been regulated in general, like screen time and video games. I mean, that's something that President Xi has really cracked down on. And so it's like, on one hand it could be xenophobia, on the other hand, it seems like we're doing something closer to what China itself has decided to do.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, it kind of goes in opposite directions at the same time. Like, there was the excuse for the hearing was this fear of China, fear of Chinese intrusion, fear of surveillance from China. And in some ways, the politicians seem to want both more free speech for TikTok or more freedom for its users and more censorship or suppression on the platform. So in China, TikTok's parallel app is called Douyin, and it works a lot like TikTok, but there's less content on it, it's more rigidly controlled, it's more censored, there are stricter limits on screen time and things like that. So in some ways, the American politicians seem to be moving toward a solution like that, where you only allow the perfect, right, correct, good information, positive social impact content on TikTok. And if TikTok was only great stuff like all Sesame street, then no one would have a problem with it. But it's kind of not why people use it, and it's not. It doesn't build to that sense of freedom and community connection that TikTok thrives on. So I think they kind of want to neutralize it in some way. And I think that thread is scaring users a little bit.

[Tyler Foggatt]

So it seems like there are also people, like, outside of the US Government who actually kind of know a little bit about social media, who are concerned about TikTok and its addictiveness. And it seems like there are a lot of people who are interested in either, you know, banning it or altering it or getting it into American hands. And I'm wondering, what do people who actually, like, understand social media think that, you know, we should do with, with TikTok? And are they just as concerned about the national security issues as, you know, the politicians are?

[Kyle Chayka]

It's a great question that I think we're still figuring out. But one of the weird parts of the hearing was that the politicians did not seem to have an idea of what they actually wanted to happen. Another side of the possible ban is that the Chinese government has actually said that it would block a sale of TikTok. So if the US government tried to force a sale to an American company, then theoretically the Chinese government would step in and say, ByteDance can't sell TikTok to an American company. And so this is the looming ultimate conflict that would possibly lead to a ban, because a sale wouldn't take place. And, you know, a sale just doesn't solve so many of the problems that they're bringing up with TikTok. It doesn't change the feed. It doesn't change targeted advertising. It doesn't change NyQuil Chicken memes. It just wouldn't answer a lot of the things they brought up. And so it would seem to be somewhat unsatisfying as an answer to this.

[Tyler Foggatt]

How do you think that a TikTok ban would affect domestic politics in the sense that so many young people use the app to get political information and to share thoughts and whatnot? I mean, do you. Would it be like the equivalent of millennials losing Twitter?

[Kyle Chayka]

In my mind just now, I was thinking it would be like Bill Clinton trying to ban MTV or something because it was poisoning America's children. Like, TikTok is how over 100 million Americans, probably a lot of them millennial or Gen Z, entertain themselves. They spend 90 minutes a day on average on it. So it's like a huge, huge part of their lives. So the government interfering so directly was something that you use day in, day out and feels like a part of your brain almost. I feel like that's likely to alienate a lot of voters, a lot of young people. Yeah, I don't know that that is enough to swing an election or something, but it would be very easy to make a lot of young people extremely upset if you were to suddenly take away their addictive digital toy.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Especially if you have influencers coming out against certain candidates who are anti TikTok. And I assume that those influencers will continue to have some kind of platform on Instagram or yout YouTube or they'll migrate somewhere.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, I'm not worried about the influencers because they can always bring their audience somewhere else.

[Tyler Foggatt]

They can fend for themselves.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah, yeah, but the users will be alienated, I think no matter what happens. If TikTok changes in any way, I think it could be a little bit politically toxic to do too much about it while not touching Facebook and Google and Twitter. I mean, it just. It seems illogical or something.

[Tyler Foggatt]

I'm wondering how this issue falls along party lines. You mentioned that AOC is pro TikTok, but who is anti? Would it be like, I guess I'm wondering, is it the same sort of conservative voices who are worried about Drag Queen Story Hour, who are also concerned about the sexualization of young girls on TikTok doing dances? Or is it kind of surprising where certain politicians have fallen on this?

[Kyle Chayka]

Through the hearing, you could see a division Between Democrats and Republicans, I think the Democratic representatives leans much more on the culture questions, actually, and the mental health questions. So it was more about the addictive nature of the feed, more about possible manipulation of people's beliefs or thoughts by the Chinese government. So it's a lot about user experience, a lot about how is this affecting people, how are they interacting with the technology, which is of course, true for other forms of social media as well. And then the Republicans seem to just be hyper, hyper focused on data surveillance from China and how the Chinese Communist Party could be using this as a weapon against America on a kind of grand geopolitical scale, disrupting elections, using it as a kind of cyber warfare tool. But the concern over TikTok was really bipartisan, and it united a lot of people to the point that many of the representatives made jokes about it, that this was the only bipartisan hearing in the government right now. It was an easy thing to dislike. It was an easy thing to make comments on and have a show of force on, kind of against Sho Zi Chu, the CEO who is standing in for the looming threat of China, the threat of digital surveillance, how social media is bad. Like, that guy had a lot on his shoulders that day.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Did it seem like everyone was generally concerned about TikTok, but there were some people who were in favor of a ban or, you know, just like extremely, like, you know, strictly regulating it, and others who thought that probably wasn't the right way to go about it? Or were there people who were just sort of like, this whole thing is crazy. China doesn't care about your location data?

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah. I think the people who remains pro TikTok, I think were more on this idea that all social media is equally bad. AOC and others were pushing more for data protection in all cases. Let's also have rights in regards to American social media companies and American tech companies. So I think the critique of the hearing was that it just didn't apply broadly to all forms of technology and a kind of unfairly targeted TikTok, when actually these problems are across the board. And we might as well be against Google and Meta as well.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Yeah, I mean, it seems like in the past there have been pushes to pass data protection legislation that would ostensibly help in a situation like this. I would love to hear your thoughts on this, but, I mean, do you think that the specter of Chinese surveillance is going to be the thing that gets the United States to pass decent data protection laws?

[Kyle Chayka]

It really could be. I think TikTok is this perfect storm of things that all Politicians can be against in this moment. And I mean, maybe a forced sale or a ban would make all tech companies act a little differently just because they'd be more aware of the. The threat of the government against them. But I think, I mean, there have been several different bills over a decade plus introduced to give Americans better data protection rights, give us more insight into how algorithmic recommendations work, even just allow academics to study how recommendations work, and none of them have passed. They have not gone anywhere. And it seems very ironic or paradoxical that they could be so concerned and yet not be bothered to pass any of the even incremental laws that would help people have more control over social media. It might just be that it's too early in the life cycle of social media, and we're only just beginning to understand how much it influences us and manipulates us. But you'd think everyone would want some kind of progress on this topic. So maybe now is the time to actually pass something.

[Tyler Foggatt]

If you had to choose an app for Congress to ban or to, like, heavily regulate or to have hearings about just to, like, get everything out in the open, which one would it be? Like? I'm thinking about, like, your piece about discord, for example, after the. After the buffalo shooting. Like, it just seems to me like there are apps that, you know, are oftentimes implicated in just, like, acts of violence or that are sort of known to be, you know, sort of breeding grounds for, you know, different types of dialogue that you would think that Congress would want to discourage. And it's curious to me that TikTok, I mean, it really does probably add to this idea that it's driven by xenophobia or racism, because it's like, why TikTok when you have discord right there.

[Kyle Chayka]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, another funny thing that came out of the hearings and something that you can tell when you use TikTok is TikTok actually is pretty heavily censored, and you are pretty well gated into areas that are nice and positive and good. Unless you do try to seek out, you know, more harmful content or you fall into some kind of rabbit hole, I think. I mean, TikTok is a good actor in those areas in some ways, where other platforms like a Discord or a Twitter under Elon Musk are really bad actors. Like, Twitter got rid of its entire content moderation staff. I mean, my theory with social platforms is, like, the more of them we have, the more options we have, the better. So I would love to see Instagram split off from Facebook. I would love to see more different platforms competing against each other so that they had to offer a better experience and treat their users better. And I think you see a little bit of that with Twitter and Mastodon, for example. And I wish we saw more new platforms, more new ways of connecting with each other that weren't just these massive global corporations.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Kyle Chayka is a contributing writer to the New Yorker. You can read his column infinite scroll on newyorker.com now, this has been the political scenes. I'm Tyler Foggatt. The show is produced by Michelle Moses with help from Sidney Cobb. Our executive producer is Stephen Valentino. Our theme music is by Alison Leighton Brown. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next week. America is changing, and so is the world.

[Kyle Chayka]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Tyler Foggatt]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[Kyle Chayka]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global story.

[Tyler Foggatt]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[Kyle Chayka]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts from. PRX.