The Injustice of COVID-19

Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: The Injustice of COVID-19

Date: April 13, 2020
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor, Assistant Professor of African American Studies at Princeton, author of Race for Profit

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Overview

This episode explores the stark racial and class disparities revealed by the COVID-19 pandemic in America. David Remnick interviews Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor about why African Americans and other minorities are experiencing disproportionate rates of illness and death from COVID-19, connecting these outcomes to longstanding systemic inequalities in housing, employment, and healthcare. The conversation delves deeply into the root causes and considers whether the current crisis might prompt a reckoning with American inequality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. COVID-19 Exposes Inequality (01:16–02:42)

• Main Point: Although COVID-19 appears indiscriminate, data shows it devastating communities of color—especially African Americans—at much higher rates.
• Data Highlight: In Louisiana, African Americans make up 33% of the population but account for 70% of COVID-19 deaths ([01:50]).
• Remnick’s Framing: “We see the inequality that's part of the American healthcare system.” ([01:26])

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2. Underlying Causes: Health and Social Determinants (02:42–04:32)

• Pre-Existing Conditions: Taylor emphasizes the "long term diseases of disinvestment, underemployment, and ... poverty" affecting African Americans, like hypertension and asthma. ([02:44])
• Workplace Exposure: Only 19% of Black people can work from home, largely due to overrepresentation in low-wage, now “essential,” jobs. ([03:27])
  • Quote: "Jobs that are typically low waged and degraded, which now ironically, are seen as essential work like magnets to pull people away from the safety of social distancing." — Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor ([03:31])
• Barriers to Social Distancing: Safe housing, access to internet and computers, and adequate income are prerequisites that many lack. ([03:47])

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3. Structural Racism in Healthcare (04:32–05:41)

• Insurance Disparity: 10% of African Americans are uninsured, compounding vulnerability. ([04:43])
• Treatment Inequality: Even insured Black women have reported being repeatedly turned away from hospitals despite classic COVID-19 symptoms. ([04:54])
  • Quote: "There is a legacy within healthcare practice of not believing black patients when they talk about pain, not really taking seriously the complaints from black patients." — Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor ([05:00])

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4. Testing Disparities & Accessibility (05:41–06:44)

• Income and Testing: High-income zip codes get tested at six times the rate of low-income, low-insurance areas. ([05:49])
  • Practical Barriers: "Drive up" testing sites presuppose car ownership, excluding the poorest. ([06:02])
• Disconnected Populations: The poorest and most disconnected people are likely tested at even lower rates than the already underserved. ([06:32])

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5. Housing Inequality and Its Legacy (06:44–08:42)

• Impact of Redlining: Residential segregation not only restricts economic opportunity but also exposes Black Americans to substandard housing. ([07:04])
• Unsafe Living Conditions: Thousands of apartments in Philadelphia are “legally designated unfit for human habitation”—problems compounded by COVID-19. ([07:30])
  • Critical Irony: Lack of plumbing and potable water is a crisis as advice to wash hands constantly is emphasized. ([07:52])
  • Quote: "We think about people in Flint, Michigan, ... thousands of black people whose water, access to potable water has been shut off at a time when we are being told to wash our hands as much as humanly possible." — Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor ([08:03])

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6. Possibility for Change and Grounds for Hope (08:42–11:18)

• Historical Perspective: Prior crises (Hurricane Katrina, 2008 financial crash) briefly exposed inequality but didn’t necessarily lead to lasting change. ([09:12])
  • Quote: “So just knowing about it is not enough. And I think social crises almost always provoke a social response.” — Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor ([09:40])
• Organizing Challenges: Social distancing complicates traditional forms of activism and protest. ([09:52])
• Grounded Hope: Taylor sees hope in “the basic decency of regular people,” highlighting mutual aid and solidarity efforts, especially among healthcare workers and community volunteers. ([10:42])
  • Quote: “I have hope not based in some kind of cheap religiosity, but hope that is rooted in an understanding of history and the history of ordinary people, really leading the way to find solutions to the social dilemmas” — Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor ([10:09])

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Memorable Quotes

• “It is almost too easy to point to the kind of underlying conditions that African Americans are particularly vulnerable to ... really all of the long term diseases of disinvestment, underemployment, and in some cases, poverty.” — Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor ([02:44])
• “Segregation is not just about the relegation of African Americans to a particular city or suburb, it's about the consequences of that.” — Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor ([07:14])
• “We can't all just mobilize and take buses to Washington, D.C. to express our outrage at the sclerotic pace of aid for people on the ground... but I do have hope.” — Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor ([09:54])

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Important Timestamps

• 01:16 — Opening remarks and framing of the episode's topic.
• 02:42 — Investigation into the disparity of COVID-19 impact along racial lines.
• 04:41 — Discussion on class and racial bias in healthcare.
• 05:47 — How COVID-19 testing is distributed across communities.
• 07:01 — Examination of the legacy of redlining and housing.
• 08:42 — Conversation shifts to prospects for hope and potential for change.

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Closing

The episode ends with Remnick thanking Taylor and highlighting her most recent book, Race for Profit. The discussion leaves listeners with a sense of urgency about addressing racial inequality laid bare by the pandemic, while rooting hope in the agency and solidarity of ordinary people.

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Transcript

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[David Remnick / Tristan Redman]

This is the Politics and More podcast. I'm David Remnick. On first glance, COVID 19 seems to be indifferent to who we are. Princes and prime ministers, musicians and Hollywood A listers, NBA players, all sorts of prominent people have made headlines for contracting the virus. But when we look at the numbers of illnesses and fatalities, we see something else distinct emerge. We see the inequality that's part of the American healthcare system. We find the kinds of disparities that cause worse outcomes in many different ways for people who are disadvantaged. Keeanga Yamada Taylor has written for many publications, including the New Yorker, about racial inequality. She's an assistant professor of African American Studies at Princeton and the author of Race for Profit. I reached her last week. Now, Professor Taylor, there are some really alarming numbers coming in from all over the country which show that minorities, particularly African Americans, are succumbing to COVID 19 at absolutely staggering rates. In Louisiana, African Americans are 33% of the population, but account for 70% of the deaths from coronavirus. And this is all over the place. In Chicago, in Mississippi, in New York, what factor or combination of factors contributes to this shocking disparity?

[Keeanga Yamada Taylor]

So I think that there are a few things. The first thing is that it is almost too easy to point to the kind of underlying conditions that African Americans are particularly vulnerable to, whether that is hypertension, whether it's obesity, asthma, really all of the long term diseases of disinvestment, underemployment, and in some cases, poverty. Pre existing conditions don't necessarily make people more vulnerable to the virus, but it means that if you get the virus that it can have deadly effects. And then we can talk about the inability to practice social distancing. I think as a prerequisite for effective social distancing, you need to have safe, sound and comfortable housing. You need access to the Internet, you need access to computers. And so I think because of the ways that black people are overrepresented in professions that don't allow for working at home, only 19% of black people have the ability to work at home because of the types of jobs that they are employed in, jobs that are typically low waged and degraded, which now, ironically, are seen as essential work like magnets to pull people away from the safety of social distancing. And so African Americans in New York City, you still must get on the subway to get to work. And so social distancing is critical, but you have to have a certain kind of income and class position really to be able to fully engage that practice.

[David Remnick / Tristan Redman]

How does this manifest itself in terms of our healthcare system, in terms of institutional racism and our health care system?

[Keeanga Yamada Taylor]

Well, there I think you see both the dynamics of class, but also I think it's important to say that 10% of African Americans are uninsured. And then there have been several reports of black women in particular with health insurance who show up to the hospital with the classic now classic symptoms of COVID and are turned away repeatedly and are only getting tested at the very final hours when it's much too late. So there is a legacy within healthcare practice of not believing black patients when they talk about pain, not really taking seriously the complaints from black patients. So I think that that is a way in which racial issues transcend the obvious class problems in a for profit health care system.

[David Remnick / Tristan Redman]

Do we know how testing for coronavirus is being deployed in poor and minority neighborhoods?

[Keeanga Yamada Taylor]

I'm not sure if we have a full picture. There was a scientist at Drexel University in Philadelphia and he found that in zip codes with higher incomes, testing was six times higher than in zip codes with lower incomes and lower rates of insurance. There are these drive up testing facilities that have been created in cities around the country, but it assumes that you have a car to be able to use that. But given the dearth of tests that are available, I can imagine that for the poorest people, those who are most disconnected from the networks, where one might find out about where to go to get tested, how to get tested, that the numbers are even lower than they are for the general public.

[David Remnick / Tristan Redman]

I want to ask a question about housing. I've read your really excellent book on race and housing. In looking at this crisis and the shocking infection and death rates for minorities, do you see the legacy of redlining there and how so?

[Keeanga Yamada Taylor]

Well, I think, I mean, there's so many overlapping issues. I think with redlining, we know that residential segregation cuts people off from good jobs, from high paying jobs, from the opportunities that could actually improve life chances. I think segregation is not just about the relegation of African Americans to a particular city or suburb, it's about the consequences of that. Also, somewhere like Philadelphia, there are literally thousands of apartments in this city, I'm in Philadelphia, that have been legally designated unfit for human habitation by the city of Philadelphia. But the city does nothing to act on that, because to close these apartments would be to exacerbate a crisis of homelessness that already exists. But part of the reason for many of these places, why they are considered unfit for human habitation is because they don't have proper plumbing, they don't have proper access to water. And so that is of even more critical importance right now. We think about people in Flint, Michigan, we think about people in Detroit, thousands of black people whose water, access to potable water has been shut off at a time when we are being told to wash our hands as much as humanly possible and we are being told to practice good hygiene. So all of these issues are intersecting in the most destructive and catastrophic way that we could imagine.

[David Remnick / Tristan Redman]

It's very hard to talk about hope on days when the death count is so, so high in New York and around the country and around the world too, but particularly in the United States. But does the fact that this has laid bare so many inequalities in this country, does it give you any hope that when we get around the corner of this, that the discussion about inequality and about race will change in any profound way?

[Keeanga Yamada Taylor]

First of all, this is not the first time that the horrors of American inequality have been exposed to people. In 2005, the catastrophe of Hurricane Katrina, you know, as Danny Glover said, revealed a third world country in the midst of The United States, I think Even in the 2008 financial crisis and the ways that some people were more devastated than others also created important insights into American poverty, things that under normal circumstances go completely ignored. So just knowing about it is not enough. And I think social crises almost always provoke a social response. It's complicated to imagine what that will look like right now because of social distance. So we can't all just go to City hall and shake our fists. We can't all just mobilize and take buses to Washington, D.C. to express our outrage at the sclerotic pace of aid for people on the ground. And so for me, I mean, I do have hope. I have hope not based in some kind of cheap religiosity, but hope that is rooted in an understanding of history and the history of ordinary people, really leading the way to find solutions to the social dilemmas of whatever period or circumstance that they emerge in. We can see the very basic gestures of solidarity, whether it is the selfless acts of healthcare professionals, people who are trying to procure food and other resources for the elderly. I mean, there are all sorts of examples that we can point to that show the basic decency of regular people in this society. So that that's where I do have hope.

[David Remnick / Tristan Redman]

Professor Taylor, thank you so much. Keeanga Yamada Taylor is a contributor to the New Yorker, and she's an assistant professor of African American Studies at Princeton. Her most recent book is titled Race for Profit. How Banks in the Real Estate Industry Undermine Black Home Ownership.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser / Asma Khalid]

America is changing, and so is the world.

[David Remnick / Tristan Redman]

But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser / Asma Khalid]

I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm.

[David Remnick / Tristan Redman]

Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story.

[Mint Mobile Advertiser / Asma Khalid]

Every weekday, we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet.

[David Remnick / Tristan Redman]

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Keeanga Yamada Taylor]

From. PRX.