Episode Overview

Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: The Koch Brothers Say No to Tariffs
Date: June 18, 2018
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Jane Mayer

In this episode, David Remnick interviews New Yorker staff writer Jane Mayer about the political activities and influence of Charles and David Koch—famously known as the Koch brothers. Despite being staunch Republican donors and free-market advocates, the Kochs are opposing the Trump administration's recent turn toward trade protectionism, specifically tariffs on imported goods, and are launching a $30 million campaign against these policies ahead of the 2018 midterm elections. The conversation illuminates the paradoxes of the Kochs’ relationship with the Trump presidency, their vast political machine, and their lasting impact on Washington.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Koch Brothers vs. Trump’s Tariffs

• Core Disagreement with Trump:
  The Koch brothers oppose any kind of tariffs, believing they harm both their businesses and the wider U.S. economy.

  • Jane Mayer: “They're against any kind of tariffs. They think that it's deleterious to their business and to the country's economy.” [02:41]

• $30 Million Anti-Tariff Campaign:
  The Kochs are planning to spend up to $30 million to oppose the Trump administration’s tariff policies.

  • Jane Mayer: “They've talked about spending millions, as much as $30 million.” [03:07]

• Messaging Strategy:
  The campaign will appear in ads from Koch-backed groups such as Americans for Prosperity, a Hispanic group, and a veterans’ group, focusing the messaging on the impact of tariffs on consumers and lower-income Americans—not on Koch Industries.

  • Jane Mayer: “You will see ads that will say that these tariffs are going to hurt poor people and consumers. They don’t go out there and say these tariffs are going to hurt Koch Industries...they talk about how the tariffs are going to hurt the little people.” [03:19]

2. Koch Influence in the Midterm Elections

• Maintaining Power in Congress:
  The main objective is to support Republican candidates to control Congress and stave off any legislation that would regulate carbon pollution or address global warming, closely tied to Koch business interests.

  • Jane Mayer: “The most important for them is to keep the country from doing anything that would put a tax on carbon pollution and take action against global warming because their whole business is tied up in carbon, in fossil fuels.” [04:05]

• Political 'Machine':
  The Koch network acts like a powerful political apparatus, often as influential—or more so—than the Republican Party itself, using its resources to “primary” politicians who don’t align with their agenda.

  • Jane Mayer: “…they use this political muscle...to scare Republicans into following their agenda. And they threaten those that might not by saying, 'we'll run somebody against you in a primary.'” [04:33]

• Strategic Bipartisanship:
  While supporting mostly Republicans, the Kochs occasionally back Democrats aligned with their business interests.

  • Notably, they have supported Democrats in Arkansas and those aiding in deregulatory initiatives like the rollback of Dodd-Frank. [04:33]

3. The Koch-Trump Relationship: An Uneasy Alliance

• Reluctant Non-Support in 2016:
  The Kochs viewed the Trump/Clinton election as choosing “between a heart attack and cancer.”

  • David Remnick: “If I remember, they described the campaign of Clinton vs. Trump as having to decide between a heart attack and cancer...” [05:50]

• Lack of 2016 Presidential Support:
  Though they had a massive war chest ($889 million), they did not support Trump’s candidacy directly, allocating funds elsewhere.

  • Jane Mayer: “...they didn’t put money behind Trump.” [07:45]

• Disagreements Beyond Tariffs:
  Major policy divides with Trump exist on trade and immigration, both critical to the Koch worldview.

  • Jane Mayer: “They have differences with him on trade and on immigration. Those are two major areas.” [07:45]

4. Areas of Alignment: Taxes, Deregulation, and Anti-Regulatory Agendas

• Support for Tax Reform:
  The Kochs played a significant role in supporting Trump’s 2017 tax cuts, spending $20 million to push it through.

  • Jane Mayer: “They are huge supporters of his one achievement in office legislatively, which is the tax bill...This is their idea of heaven.” [08:24]

• Blocking the Border Adjustment Tax:
  The Kochs successfully stopped a proposed border adjustment tax that would have offset tax cuts by raising new revenue.

  • Jane Mayer: “They stopped him from achieving the mechanism that he had originally intended to pay for those tax cuts...But guess what? The Kochs were against it and they killed it.” [08:24]

• Long-term Impact:
  The result is growing deficits, which enables future arguments for cutting government spending—a core Koch aim.

  • Jane Mayer (on the outcome): “And they’re going to create a lot more pressure to keep cutting government spending. And that’s what the Kochs want.” [09:40]

5. Koch Influence on Trump Administration Personnel

• Staff Connections:
  Senior Trump administration officials, such as Betsy DeVos (Secretary of Education), Mike Pompeo (Secretary of State), and Mike Pence (Vice President), have strong Koch ties.

  • David Remnick: “You’ve got Betsy DeVos...Mike Pompeo...Mike Pence...they all have pretty close ties to the Kochs, right?” [09:40]
  • Jane Mayer: “Really close ties.” [09:59]

• Appointees at Key Regulatory Agencies:
  Daniel Jorjani, a Koch insider, is now the top lawyer at the Department of the Interior; Scott Pruitt, backed by Kochs, led the EPA.

  • Jane Mayer: “Daniel Jorjani…right hand man to Charles Koch. And he’s now the top lawyer in the Interior Department…Scott Pruitt…political career was funded from the start by the Kochs.” [10:08]

6. Changes Within the Koch Organization

• David Koch’s Retirement:
  David Koch has stepped down due to failing health, but sources indicate Charles Koch pushed him out.
  • Jane Mayer: “He was given a push out the door by his older brother...David Koch really hadn’t wanted to go, but...Charles has been pushing him out for some time.” [11:06]

7. Kochs’ Overall Success Under Trump

• Summary Assessment:
  Despite policy differences on tariffs and immigration, the Kochs have achieved significant victories under Trump—especially regarding environmental deregulation and tax policies.
  • Jane Mayer: “Tariffs and immigration are not such central questions to them as environmental policy and tax policy and other regulatory policy. And on those areas, Trump for them is a dream come true.” [11:44]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jane Mayer on Koch Messaging:
  “They don’t go out there and say these tariffs are going to hurt Koch Industries and we who are the ninth richest men in America…they talk about how the tariffs are going to hurt the little people.” [03:19]

• On the Koch Political ‘Machine’:
  “They use this political muscle...to scare Republicans into following their agenda...most of the people on the Hill, face it, want to get reelected. So they go along.” [04:33]

• On the 2016 Election:
  David Remnick: “They described the campaign of Clinton vs. Trump as having to decide between a heart attack and cancer, I think is how they put it.” [05:50]

• Kochs’ Ideological Goal:
  “They want to shrink the government down to… the size that it was during Calvin Coolidge’s period. Calvin Coolidge is their favorite president.” [06:15]

• Overall Gain:
  “Trump for them is a dream come true.” [11:44]

Key Timestamps

• 01:16–01:48: Episode theme and introduction
• 02:41: Jane Mayer outlines Koch opposition to tariffs
• 03:07: Scope and methods of anti-tariff campaign
• 04:05: Kochs’ core focus on blocking climate/carbon regulations
• 04:33: The Koch political machine’s tactics explained
• 05:50: Kochs’ view of 2016 election—a choice between "heart attack and cancer"
• 07:45: The Kochs’ allocation of funds in 2016
• 08:24: Koch support of tax reform and regulatory rollback
• 09:40: Koch ties among top officials in the Trump administration
• 10:08: Details on Koch-backed appointees
• 11:06: David Koch’s retirement and family dynamics
• 11:44: Jane Mayer’s summary of the Kochs’ accomplishments under Trump

Conclusion

This episode provides a concise yet penetrating look at the Koch brothers’ ongoing influence over Republican and national politics, shining particular light on their differences with Trump over tariffs—and how, despite these, they have shaped some of the administration's most consequential legislative and regulatory outcomes. The conversation underscores the enduring power of money and coordinated influence in American politics.