Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode Title: The Lessons of Watergate
Date: March 2, 2017
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Thomas Mallon, author, historian, and former Republican
Episode Overview
This episode explores the mounting parallels between the unfolding Trump administration controversies and the Watergate scandal of the Nixon era. Host Dorothy Wickenden and her guest, Thomas Mallon—an expert on political history and the author of a bestselling novel on Watergate—discuss the significance of recent revelations about contacts between Trump campaign officials and Russian representatives, the concept of the political cover-up, and the lessons history might offer for understanding present-day events.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Trump Administration Scandal and Watergate Parallels
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Sessions-Russia Revelations: The episode opens in the wake of Justice Department confirmation that Attorney General Jeff Sessions twice contacted the Russian ambassador during the campaign, contradicting his own Senate testimony.
- [01:16] Framing news context and its historic resonance.
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On Analogies to Nixon: Thomas Mallon notes that as scandals unfold, Trump is compared to both Nixon and, in tone, to Reagan depending on the political climate.
- [03:10] “You started to hear a lot of that two weeks ago when Flynn resigned. And then, so Trump and Nixon were being equated... I think that the most crucial bit of fact that needs to be known is just what these contacts were with the Russian—almost said Soviet, which dates me...” (Thomas Mallon)
2. The Progression and Mechanics of Watergate
- Timeline Recap: Mallon recounts that Watergate was a “protracted scandal,” taking over two years to reach Nixon’s resignation and only truly exploding when direct links to higher-ups became public.
- [04:13] “Watergate doesn't really explode until March of 1973... and you still, from that point on, you still have about a year and a half to go... atmosphere of desperation, hostility to the press—all of this does make for reminiscence...” (Thomas Mallon)
- Key Question: The central Watergate question—“What did the President know and when did he know it?”—is identified as relevant once again in the Trump context.
3. The Crime vs. the Cover-Up
- Nixon’s Downfall:
- [05:23] “It's not the crime, it's the cover-up.” (Dorothy Wickenden)
- Mallon agrees: “Absolutely. That's what really did Nixon in. If Nixon had made a clean breast of things early on, he might well have survived.”
- Advice to Reagan: Nixon’s advice to Reagan during Iran-Contra illustrates that scandal management hinges on transparency and apology—a lesson often unheeded.
4. John Dean’s Historical Perspective
- Dean's Diagnosis: Mallon references John Dean’s characterization of Watergate as “an inevitable outgrowth of... excessive concern over political impact of demonstrators... leaks... an insatiable appetite for political intelligence... all coupled with a do-it-yourself White House staff, regardless of the law.” [06:12]
- Dean’s trajectory from orchestrator to whistleblower is contrasted with the slow unraveling of the cover-up: “The scandal had been going on for a year before anybody knew that the Oval Office was, as they used to say, that the President had bugged himself.”
5. The Role of the Press and Political Opponents
- Media Motivation: Mallon asserts that both detestation from the press and “glee” among Democrats fueled the Watergate spectacle, and sees a similar dynamic at play.
- [07:33] “Glee had an enormous role in Watergate... every Democrat in Washington woke up delighted this morning, not appalled.” (Thomas Mallon)
6. When Political Support Vanishes
- Republican Defections: Nixon’s support eroded very late, Mallon recounts—only truly evaporating with the “Saturday Night Massacre” and when “party elders like Barry Goldwater came to him and said, you just don’t have the support.”
- [07:56] "Very late... really a matter of days before his resignation." (Thomas Mallon)
7. Personal Digressions: Nixon vs. Trump’s Character
- On Leaving the GOP: Mallon, once a lifelong Republican, discusses why he became an independent following Trump’s election.
- [09:01] “I became an independent and I devoutly hope to be able to re-register in the Republican Party at some point. That will not happen as long as we have the current incumbent.”
- Nixon’s Complexity vs. Trump’s Flatness:
- [09:28+] “Nixon was extraordinarily complicated... he was not just three dimensional, he was 10 dimensional... serious in most respects, in all ways that Trump is not.” (Thomas Mallon)
- [11:26] “I doubt that Trump has ever even looked at the portraits that are in the White House. He might have looked at the frames... but I don't think he has any interest in history... and I don't see any of that in the present administration.”
8. Steve Bannon’s Role—The Modern “Ehrlichman”
- Bannon Compared to Past Advisors: Mallon sees Bannon as “the supplier... to a great extent of Trump’s vision,” with more real influence than John Ehrlichman (Nixon’s key domestic aide) or even Dick Cheney (under George W. Bush).
- [13:01] “Bannon roughly corresponds to John Ehrlichman, but I think his influence is vastly greater than Ehrlichman’s was. I think it’s vastly greater than Cheney’s was... Bannon really is the person who gives Trump, insofar as he has any at all, a certain ideology. He’s not shy about saying that he’s running things.”
- Nontraditional Policy Influence:
- Bannon’s push for infrastructure spending and protectionism is labeled “not Republicanism”:
- [13:47] “The Republican Party has so fallen in line with Trump... I find Bannon a very scary fellow... he certainly adds to the whole sense that this is a White House that is out of time, out of history, and for the most part, beyond the pale.” (Thomas Mallon)
- Bannon’s push for infrastructure spending and protectionism is labeled “not Republicanism”:
9. Trump’s Joint Address and Reagan Parallels
- Performance as Tactic, Not Transformation: Mallon is skeptical of lasting change in tone.
- [15:27] “I think it was mostly a tactical thing. I don’t think it’s in his nature for that to last. I think he did learn some of the Reagan tricks... but he does not have Reagan’s temperament.”
- [16:13] “Reagan was not a hater, and Trump is a hater. He runs on hate. The more personal the hatred is, the more intense it is with him.”
10. Former Presidents on Trump and the Press
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George W. Bush’s Critique:
- [17:47] Bush (audio clip) on the necessity of the independent media:
“I consider the media to be indispensable to democracy, that we need an independent media to hold people like me to account. I mean, power can be very addictive, and it can be corrosive. And it's important for the media to call to account people who abuse their power, whether it be here or elsewhere.”
- [17:47] Bush (audio clip) on the necessity of the independent media:
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Mallon’s Reflection on Bush:
- [18:44] “President Bush is a decent man... He discovered shadows...”
- “What he didn’t know how to do was operate in shadows... I think he was a complicated man. What he didn’t know how to do was operate in shadows. And I think his concern for veterans, whatever one thinks of his war policies, his concern for veterans was tremendous and emotional... I do think that, that he belongs with the other presidents... who had complicated personalities. There’s something... I continue to find. It's not a word that's often used with Trump, but there's something obscene about him... I continue to see him as more of a psychological phenomenon than a political one, and a dangerous one at that.” (Thomas Mallon, 20:11-20:49)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “If there is a cover-up, then you are right in Nixon territory.”
Thomas Mallon, [03:03] - “What did the President know and when did he know it?”
Thomas Mallon referencing Watergate, [04:13] - “If Nixon had made a clean breast of things early on, he might well have survived.”
Thomas Mallon, [05:23] - “Glee had an enormous role in Watergate... always means I was so thrilled.”
Thomas Mallon, [07:33] - “Nixon was... ten dimensional... serious in most respects, in all ways that Trump is not.”
Thomas Mallon, [09:28+] - “I don’t think [Trump] has any interest in history. I don’t think he knows any history.”
Thomas Mallon, [11:32] - “I find Bannon a very scary fellow... he certainly adds to the whole sense that this is a White House that is out of time, out of history, and for the most part, beyond the pale.”
Thomas Mallon, [13:47] - “Reagan was not a hater, and Trump is a hater. He runs on hate. The more personal the hatred is, the more intense it is with him.”
Thomas Mallon, [16:13] - “I consider the media to be indispensable to democracy... power can be very addictive, and it can be corrosive.”
George W. Bush (audio clip), [17:47] - “I continue to see him [Trump] as more of a psychological phenomenon than a political one, and a dangerous one at that.”
Thomas Mallon, [20:49]
Key Timestamps
- 01:16: News context—Sessions' contacts with Russian ambassador
- 03:10: Flynn resignation & Nixon analogies
- 04:13: Watergate timeline and atmosphere comparison
- 05:23: The cover-up’s centrality in both scandals
- 06:12: John Dean’s testimony and insight
- 07:33: The press and political “glee”
- 07:56: When Nixon lost GOP support
- 09:01: Mallon’s personal political realignment
- 09:28+: Nixon vs. Trump: character and legacy
- 13:01: Steve Bannon’s role in Trump’s White House
- 15:27: The Reagan comparison—stylistic vs. substantive
- 17:47: George W. Bush on the indispensable media
- 20:49: Mallon on Trump as “a psychological phenomenon and a dangerous one at that”
Conclusion
Through a rich, historically grounded conversation, Dorothy Wickenden and Thomas Mallon draw out cautionary parallels between the crises of the Nixon era and the Trump administration’s mounting scandals. The episode argues that the deeper dangers often lie not merely in the original political transgressions, but in the culture of secrecy, personal temperament, and the willingness of political parties and institutions to uphold—or abandon—principle for power. The lessons of Watergate, as the discussion reveals, are as relevant as ever.