The Libyan Migrant Disaster

Summary

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The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: The Libyan Migrant Disaster
Date: April 24, 2015
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guests: Mattathias Schwartz, John Lee Anderson

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Overview

This episode tackles the catastrophic migrant crisis off Libya, focusing on a recent shipwreck that claimed over 800 lives. New Yorker writers Mattathias Schwartz and John Lee Anderson analyze the factors driving migrants to risk their lives, the role of smuggling networks, Europe's policy response, and the broader humanitarian and political implications. The discussion draws connections between the Mediterranean crisis and global migration challenges, like those at the U.S.–Mexico border.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The 2015 Libyan Shipwreck and Its Context

• [01:14-02:23]
  • A boat carrying nearly 1,000 migrants capsized off Libya; over 800 people drowned.
  • Majority were sub-Saharan Africans being smuggled toward Europe.
  • Similar tragedies have become routine: Europe hasn’t found effective deterrents.

Quote:

“The reason this is becoming routine is Europe hasn't found a way to stop these boats from coming. ...too many people want to make the trip, and Europe hasn't found a way to stop them.”
– Mattathias Schwartz [02:10]

2. The Human Trafficking Racket

• [02:23-03:29]
  • Smugglers receive up to a billion dollars yearly.
  • The business runs like drug trafficking, with kingpins using modern communications for ransom and logistics.
  • Migrants are exploited at every stage, with up to a 1 in 10 chance of dying.

Quote:

“They’re taking advantage of cell phones and modern communication networks...and put them onto boats that may have as high of a 1 in 10 chance of capsizing.”
– Mattathias Schwartz [03:29]

3. Fate of Survivors and Policy Failures

• [04:00-04:52]
  • Survivors enter a “murky system” varying by country:
    • Spain: almost certain deportation.
    • Italy: leaky detention centers, turning a blind eye as most move north.
  • Italy’s "Mare Nostrum" rescue program ended due to cost and lack of EU support.
  • There’s tension between humanitarian rescue and possibly incentivizing more dangerous journeys.

Quote:

“Some have even said that the more boats you send out to rescue people, you're just encouraging smugglers and immigrants to continue to come...”
– Mattathias Schwartz [04:53]

4. Libya’s Anarchy and Smuggling Networks

• [05:25-08:54]
  • Post-Gaddafi Libya is chaotic, with over 1,600 militias and no functional state.
  • City-states, criminal gangs, and ISIS all vie for power.
  • Migrants are smuggled via “rat lines” from sub-Saharan Africa, paying at every handoff.
  • ISIS presence increases risks for refugees and causes Western security fears.

Quote:

“Libya always had ancient historical lines between east and West...You have city states that are dueling for territorial reasons...and you now have the ISIS factor as well.” – John Lee Anderson [05:44-06:46]

5. Security Concerns: Migrants and Potential Terrorists

• [08:54-10:48]
  • Western governments are worried about terrorist infiltration via migrant routes.
  • No documented cases of ISIS using migrant boats to enter Europe, though politicians raise the specter often.
  • Incidents of violence among migrants have occurred, e.g., Christians thrown overboard.

Quote:

“Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm yet to hear one case of a single person from ISIS using one of these boats to make it to Europe. I don't think that's ever been documented.” – Mattathias Schwartz [09:13]

“If you're killing people, it kind of doesn't really make much of a difference, does it?” – John Lee Anderson [10:38]

6. The Economic Debate and Xenophobia

• [11:35-12:32]
  • Immigrants are often scapegoated as economic threats; consensus among economists suggests they bolster economies, not harm them.
  • Anti-immigration rhetoric is seen as nationalistic or even racist at its core.

Quote:

“Underneath that argument is maybe a legitimate fear that a more equitable sharing of the world's resources could lead in the long run to a somewhat lower standard of living in the north or the west...”
– Mattathias Schwartz [12:14]

7. Global Parallels: U.S.–Mexico Border

• [12:32-13:42]
  • Militarized borders and harsh deterrents have not solved the U.S. migration crisis.
  • The EU is repeating the U.S. ‘war on drugs’ approach by targeting smugglers, which doesn’t work when demand persists.
  • Root causes and safe alternatives must be addressed.

Quote:

“States just can't erect walls and eliminate trade that way. You have to do something about the demand.” – Mattathias Schwartz [13:28]

8. Policy Responses and Alternatives

• [13:42-14:49]
  • Italian PM Renzi calls for more EU responsibility and more search-and-rescue.
  • Schwartz spotlights a U.S. policy for vulnerable Central American children to safely migrate if they have relatives in the U.S.—a model he suggests for the EU.
  • The need for legal, humane alternatives to dangerous, illegal migration.

Quote:

“You have to give people an alternative to taking these illegal boats. ...Simply wanting to move from one place to another should not under all circumstances be considered a crime.”
– Mattathias Schwartz [14:31]

9. U.S. Immigration Politics and Demographics

• [14:49-15:41]
  • U.S. shifting discourse; some Republicans talk about pathways to citizenship.
  • Demographic trends are making anti-immigration stances less tenable long-term.

Quote:

“As more and more people attach this to their first person experience, the people who are against immigration in the US may face a demographic problem...”
– Mattathias Schwartz [15:20]

10. The Intractability of the Crisis

• [15:41-16:14]
  • Without state stability in Libya and neighboring regions, no legalistic or humanitarian solution alone will end the exodus or its dangers.

Quote:

“As long as there's a lawless state with borders to other effectively lawless states, the story is going to be unfolding before our eyes and it's not always going to have a kind of legalistic or humanitarian solution.”
– John Lee Anderson [15:45]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It's a bit like counting stars. Everyone is armed everywhere."
  John Lee Anderson on Libya’s fractured state [06:40]

• "You can't attack the problem from the supply side. You have to go to the root causes and the sources of demand."
  Mattathias Schwartz on failing policy approaches [04:58]

• "Simply wanting to move from one place to another should not under all circumstances be considered a crime."
  Mattathias Schwartz on migration policy [14:38]

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|-----------------------------------------------| | 01:14 | Dorothy Wickenden’s introduction | | 02:23 | Mattathias Schwartz on the shipwreck details | | 03:29 | Human trafficking “racket” explained | | 04:10 | The fate of survivors and EU responses | | 05:25 | John Lee Anderson on Libya’s collapse | | 08:54 | Security fears and terrorist infiltration | | 11:35 | The economic/xenophobic argument in Europe | | 12:32 | U.S.–Mexico border migration parallels | | 13:49 | Policy alternatives and legal pathways | | 14:49 | Shifting U.S. immigration politics | | 15:41 | The region’s lawlessness and future outlook |

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Summary and Tone

The discussion is clear-eyed, urgent, and unsparing about the complexities and tragedies of migration across the Mediterranean. The dialogue balances empathy for desperate migrants with realism about Europe's and Libya’s limitations, refusing easy answers. The speakers call for policy solutions that address root causes, recognize the limits of deterrence, and elevate the debate above fearmongering and xenophobia.

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Transcript

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[Dorothy Wickenden]

This is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about Politics. It's Thursday, April 23rd. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker. Last Saturday, a heavily overloaded boat capsized off the coast of Libya, killing over 800 passengers. Most were sub Saharan Africans being smuggled into Europe. Prime Minister Matteo Renzi addressed the tragedy before the Italian Parliament on Wednesday.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

He said, when someone is ready to.

[John Lee Anderson]

Risk their own life because they have.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

To flee a situation where people are being beheaded around them, discouraging these people from fleeing is not done with a declaration of principles. It is done through the offices of the UN High Representative of Refugees in Niger and Sudan. It's done by directly intervening in these places.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Last year, 170,000 people were smuggled across the Mediterranean into Italy. John Lee Anderson and Mattathias Schwartz are here to discuss the unfolding crisis in human trafficking around the world. So Matt, what happened on Saturday and how commonplace has this kind of tragedy become?

[Mattathias Schwartz]

A boat carrying nearly 1,000 migrants set off from Libya. As is normal, it was incredibly crowded. People were locked in the hold and sitting on laps and packed shoulder to shoulder all the way up on the bridge. And at some point, I think about 200 km off the coast of Libya, the boat capsized and almost everyone on board drowned. The estimate of the number of dead is between 8 or 900. And, you know, we saw something like this happen. And October 2013, off the coast of Lampedusa, there was another widely publicized shipwreck where more than 300 people drowned. And there were similar outcries from European leaders about how awful this is, and it has to stop when we have to do something. And the reason this is becoming routine is Europe hasn't found a way to stop these boats from coming. And the disparities between the standard of living and the political situation in Africa and Europe have become too extreme, and just too many people want to make the trip, and Europe hasn't found a way to stop them.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

It's become a huge racket for smugglers. So in 2014, about a billion dollars was paid to smugglers working along the Mediterranean Sea route. Who are they and how does this work?

[Mattathias Schwartz]

It's not unlike drug trafficking. There are kingpins who've set up shop in Libya, and Italian prosecutors even saidand there may be some exaggeration there, that they've had profits in the hundreds of millions of euros, but they're taking advantage of cell phones and modern communication networks to extract ransoms from people who've come to Libya from other countries and don't feel secure there. And so they're able to use that fear to exploit and take advantage of them and put them onto boats that may have as high of a 1 in 10 chance of capsizing.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Last year you wrote in the magazine about Lampedusa, a small Italian island in the Mediterranean where many survivors are detained. What happens to those who survive they.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

Enter this murky system? It depends which country they enter in. If they enter Spain, they're almost certain to be sent back. If they enter enter Italy, they are put into detention camps that are extraordinarily leaky. Italy turns a blind eye towards people who escape these detention camps because most of them won't stay in Italy. Most of them won't go further north into Scandinavia or Switzerland or other northern European countries that have stronger social services and are generally considered better places as final destinations by the immigrants.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Italy had a search and rescue program which was very effective and offered legal aid to asylum seekers, but then it was shut down after a year. Was it too expensive? What was wrong?

[Mattathias Schwartz]

It was very expensive. And Italy Said they weren't getting enough help from the rest of Europe. It was called the Mare Nostrum RC program and it just ended a few months ago. But I think there's a question as to whether this problem can be solved just by sending boats out. And some have even said that the more boats you send out to rescue people, you're just encouraging smugglers and immigrants to continue to come on more boats. If you're saying that you'll meet them halfway and bring them the rest of the way. In my mind, it's a little bit like drug trafficking. You can't attack the problem from the supply side. You have to go to the root causes and the sources of demand.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

John Lee, because you recently reported from Libya, I want to talk to you a little bit about that. It's become the principal way station for African immigrants and as you wrote very vividly, it's descended into total anarchy with criminal gangs smuggling humans along with drugs and weapons, as Matt has mentioned. Could you describe a little bit more what the scene is there?

[John Lee Anderson]

Yeah. Since the so called Arab Spring in 2011 that drove Muammar Gaddafi power after 42 years, the country has split along numerous lines. It's a kind of one day it will be used as a proof sheet for how you destroy a country effectively. Libya always had ancient historical lines between east and West. So right now you have a duality of everything. You have opposing governments in Tripoli, the capital, as well as in Benghazi in the east, gangs and armed groups that managed to seize a lot of which was extensive throughout the country. There are estimates as many as 1,600 militias, but it's a bit like counting stars. Everyone is armed everywhere. And so you have city states that are dueling for territorial reasons, for reasons of pecuniary reasons, and for reasons of ideology. And you now have the ISIS factor as well, which we've seen across the Middle east because it's effective in terms of creating a presence. So you have some of these poor migrants, Egyptians and most recently Eritreans, who've been spectacularly killed on camera by the new ISIS contingents that are trying to force a presence in various parts of Libya. And on top of all of this, you have the criminal gangs that are providing a rat line from the southern deserts of Libya that are completely unguarded. You can be, you can be driven there if you're a smuggler or you want to be smuggled to Europe. You can arrange to do this in Khartoum, be driven across the Sudanese desert where you're then handed over to another armed group in armed convoys and driven north.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And you pay at each stage, presumably?

[John Lee Anderson]

Yes, yes, exactly. And then there are a series of houses or centers, ports that are under the control of militias, where these sort of death ships are sent off. So I was there at the very end of last year, around Christmas time. And Tripoli itself, the capital, has an outward semblance of normality. But already, for instance, I was there. I knew that I shouldn't stay in one of the two hotels where foreigners used to stay at the time I was in Tripoli, by then, pretty much all embassies had pulled out. Western presence was gone. You didn't see any. And I stayed in a private home, trying to stay as discreetly as possible. Whenever I went to the ministries, and these are again ministries now controlled by an Islamist coalition, I would see armed guys. But outwardly the rest of the city, it seemed like a normal town. But I knew that already there was an ISIS contingent in Tripoli. And sure enough, a couple of weeks after I left, they attacked one of the hotels and killed a number of foreigners who were there, very low key, discreetly. But obviously they knew they were there. And since then there have been these decapitation strikes around the country. So the European security services, of course, are extremely frightened about the possibility that amongst these migrants that are coming north and across the med, ISIS or groups like it could also infiltrate.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And that's my question for you, Matt. Obviously there are true legitimate concerns here by Western governments about the influx of terrorists among the migrants.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

There's always an attempt to move this to questions, to say it's an economic issue or it's a security issue, which makes it, you know, easier to talk about than seeing it for what it is, which is a humanitarian issue. But it's something that people have certainly talked about. And I know the Spanish government in particular has used it as an excuse to resist the liberalization of its immigration policies. But correct me if I'm wrong, I'm yet to hear one case of a single person from ISIS using one of these boats to make it to Europe. I don't think that's ever been documented. I think it's just something that politicians talk about to resist calls to do something about this. But I don't know, maybe there's something I've missed.

[John Lee Anderson]

Excuse me, just let me jump in there. I don't think one can be too black or white about this either way. I think there's obviously a very strong humanitarian argument when it comes to these things. We've seen the hundreds and Hundreds and hundreds of desperately poor migrants drowning in. And it's appalling. On the other hand, you do also have, and it can't be denied, this lethal group with a toxic ideology that seeks to create situations wherever it can. The ISIS contingent in Libya has said that it wants to conquer Rome. So at the moment, it's at the level of propaganda rhetoric. They haven't done it, but they could. They might. They can. Last week on one of those migrant boats, Christians were thrown overboard to their deaths by some hard line jihadis that happened to be on the boat.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

Not they were Muslims, but were they jihadis? Were they in fact jihadis?

[John Lee Anderson]

I don't know if they were jihadis. They were described as hardline militants. But if you're killing people, it kind of doesn't really make much of a difference, does it?

[Mattathias Schwartz]

No, that's true. And it is awful. And I'm not denying that ISIS exists or that they're in Libya or that they have the intention to conquer Europe. I guess if I sound a little bit dovish on this, when I visited Lampedusa, everyone off of the October 3rd boat, all they wanted was a cell phone so that they could call people to come and pick them up because they had access to resources. But they were unable to buy cell phones for themselves because of an Italian anti terrorism law that requires someone show a passport in order to obtain a SIM card. So this law that was intended to stop terrorism actually was preventing plenty of immigrants who'd never been accused or convicted of a crime from tapping social resources that they already had so that they wouldn't have to become wards of the state. So these are very wide nets.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Let's get back to the economic argument, because I think that's incredibly important here too. And Matt, you just referred to it. In Europe, as in the United States, xenophobia is fed by the belief that illegal immigrants take jobs that would otherwise go to citizens. But isn't it true that a vast majority of economists agree that that is not so, that immigrants actually help the economy grow, not only over the long term, but they do not have strong deleterious effects over the short term?

[Mattathias Schwartz]

I almost want to call that argument a kind of dog whistle. And I think what's behind it is nationalism and even racism. Although I think in the long run, the economic situation between Europe and Africa, and more broadly speaking, the US and the Global south has to equalize somehow. And I think underneath that argument is maybe a legitimate fear that a more equitable sharing of the world's resources could lead in the long run to a somewhat lower standard of living in the north or the west or the U.S. the EU, whatever you want to call it.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Sarah Stillman wrote in this week's magazine about the widespread kidnappings of child migrants, in particular across our border with Mexico, which has been heavily militarized since 9 11. Talk, if you would, Matt, a little bit about fences and the threat of deportation, extortion, death. Those just do not seem to be especially effective in the US or elsewhere.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

It's true. And what was most interesting to me about Sarah's article is that you don't hear much about the experience of quote, unquote, illegal immigrants or undocumented immigrants in the United States after they cross the border. But yeah, the EU seems to be approaching the migration crisis the same way that the US approached the drug crisis in the 80s and 90s, which is, you know, take military action against the people who organize it, criminalize the activity. And when people are engaging in trade, when you have demand for a product that's just not going to do any good, you're going to take out the kingpins and then new people are going to pop up because states just can't erect walls and eliminate trade that way. You have to do something about the demand. And if you don't address the demand, then the profits will be there and someone is going to go out and get them. No matter what the law size.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

There is growing recognition about this. The European Council is meeting today to discuss what can be done. What are some proposals on the table?

[Mattathias Schwartz]

Well, the prime minister of Italy, Renzi, has talked about Europe doing more of its share, which I think he means just, you know, more boats, more search and rescue operations. But personally, I'm not sure that's going to be enough. One thing that President Obama has done in Central America, and it's not a very large program, it's not something that's been heralded too much. But right now, children in Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala who have family members in the U.S. they can apply at U.S. embassies in their host countries and avoid this terrible and very dangerous journey that Sarah writes about and be reunited and travel by plane to the US And I don't think many people have taken advantage of this. It only started, I think it got up and running in April. But I think that's a kind of model for where the policy discussion has to head. You have to give people an alternative to taking these illegal boats. And you have toyou know, simply wanting to move from one place to another should not under all circumstances be considered a crime.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And do you see the politics of immigration changing more broadly in the United States? I mean, the Republican Party had something of a comeuppance in 2008 because of their really rigid anti immigration policies. Obama has not had much luck, if any, with the Republican Congress. And yet you hear Jeb Bush talking about a more open minded approach. There is more discussion among Republicans about a path to citizenship.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

Yeah, I think over the long run you have a higher percentage of the US Population right now and we're talking about, you know, legal US Citizens come from immigrant families. So I think as more and more people attach this to their first person experience, the people who are against immigration in the US may face a demographic problem as the anti immigration stance is likely to become even less and less popular as immigrants continue to be assimilated into society.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

John Lee, any final word?

[John Lee Anderson]

Yeah, it's all very well for the EU and to try to figure out ways in which to ameliorate the dire situation for these migrants seeking to cross. But as long as there's a lawless state with borders to other effectively lawless states, the story is going to be unfolding before our eyes and it's not always going to have a kind of legalistic or humanitarian solution. And that's something we need to be aware of and I think preoccupied with and think of creative solutions as the international community.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Thank you. Both Matthias Schwartz and John Lee Anderson are New Yorker staff writers. This has been the political scene from the New Yorker. I'm Dorothy Wickenden.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts in the itunes store. The weekly audio edition of the New Yorker is [e-mail] this podcast is produced by Jill Duboff and Alex Barron of newyorker.com.

[Katie Drummond]

I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's global editorial director.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

I'm Michael Coloursy, Wired's director of consumer Tech and Culture.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show Uncanny Valley is about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[Katie Drummond]

And right now, Silicon Valley and Washington have never been more intertwined. So each week we get together to talk about a big story, often at the intersection of tech and politics.

[Mattathias Schwartz]

Right. So whether we're talking about Trump, Coin, Doge or Elon Musk, we will always explain how these Silicon Valley forces are.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Affecting Washington and how they affect you.

[Katie Drummond]

Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.

[John Lee Anderson]

From prx.