← The Political Scene | The New Yorker
The Political Scene | The New Yorker
The Mood Inside the Courtroom Where Trump Was Arraigned
00:27:09
The Mood Inside the Courtroom Where Trump Was Arraigned
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- [00:00]
A
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- [01:15]
B
Also, no Melania, you know, no family. You know, he's in a courtroom. What's the stock American political move? When you're on trial, you bring your family, you bring, make yourself a human being. And he walked in by himself and just shuffled up the aisle and sat down among his lawyers.
- [01:38]
C
It is really. I didn't even think about that. But she wasn't there.
- [01:41]
B
Come on, your wife doesn't go to your arraignment. That's like basic human. That's like basic human behavior.
- [01:46]
C
Yeah. Baron. Yeah. You're listening to the political Scene. I'm Tyler Foggatt, a senior editor at the New Yorker. Donald Trump made history yesterday as the first former US President to be arraigned. According to the indictment, he repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal criminal conduct that hid damaging information from the voting public. During the 2016 presidential election, Trump was charged with 34 felony counts, a shocking number to which he has pleaded not guilty. And with that, the first presidential campaign criminal prosecution begins. Eric Latch, who writes about New York City politics for the New Yorker spent hours waiting outside the courthouse in lower Manhattan and covering the chaos of the entire day. When we spoke on Tuesday evening, he had just returned from the historic arraignment. So clearly you've had a marathon reporting day, probably a very weird reporting day. Days. This has been a days long effort to get into this courthouse.
- [02:50]
B
Right. Two days.
- [02:52]
C
And so, gosh, I guess we should just start with the big news. So Trump was charged with 34 felonies. That's clearly a lot of felonies.
- [03:00]
B
Yes.
- [03:01]
C
So what exactly are they?
- [03:04]
B
Well, the District Attorney's office in Manhattan says that he falsified business records as part of a scheme to, quote, catch and kill, basically embarrassing personal episodes, like with women, as part of his effort to become president in the 2016 cycle.
- [03:22]
C
So the one we've all heard about is Stormy Daniels. But there's more than that, it sounds like. Right?
- [03:26]
B
Yeah. So there's a couple of other ones, to be honest. Basically, I started lining up on Monday, 2pm outside the courthouse and then got into the courthouse around 1 o' clock this afternoon and they unsealed the indictment sort of around the time of the arraignment, which is scheduled for 2:15. So I haven't actually, actually gotten a chance to look through all the details of the indictment, which I think is why you're asking me this, to troll me a little bit that I haven't been able to sit down with the paper yet. But yeah, it's broader than just the Stormy Daniels case, which I think sort of was the operating assumption of lots of people sort of going into today, that there's a kind of a broader argument that the DA's office wants to make. Whether you buy it or not, that Stormy Daniels situation was one instance in a sort of broader campaign that Trump engaged in to basically protect his reputation with money while running for president.
- [04:25]
C
And because he was protecting his reputation while running for president. Is the idea that this is election interference?
- [04:32]
B
Yeah, I mean, that's what one of the prosecutors on the case got up in court today and said that this was an illegal effort, an illegal conspiracy to undermine the integrity of the 2016 election. So they're very much seeing it, or they want to make the case that it's an election integrity issue, which makes.
- [04:49]
C
Sense because as someone who has read the indictment, there is a point.
- [04:53]
B
Enlightenment, please.
- [04:54]
C
It's like point 19. But basically there's a place in the indictment where it says at one point the defendant, Trump directed a lawyer to delay making a payment to a second woman who he was trying to.
- [05:06]
B
That's Karen McDougal.
- [05:07]
C
Karen McDougal, who he was trying to hush up. And he told that lawyer that if they could delay the payment until after the election, then they might just be able to avoid paying it altogether. Because at that point, it wouldn't matter if the story were public.
- [05:18]
B
Right.
- [05:18]
C
So that I think everyone. Everyone's been sort of talking about how the obvious argument from the defense here is paying hush money to an adult film star when you're married to someone else. That sounds like a personal expense. There are a lot of reasons why you would pay hush money aside from wanting to win an election.
- [05:34]
B
Yeah. I mean, the other part of the case that, again, that the prosecution hinted at today and that it will probably be unpacked further in the media and then the courtroom, as this sort of plays out, is just this falsifying records as a part of this scheme.
- [05:50]
C
Can you talk a little bit? Because I was under the impression that the falsification of business records in New York, that that could be. That's sometimes a misdemeanor unless it's connected with a larger crime.
- [05:59]
B
You'd have to, you know, I advise you to consult a lawyer, basically.
- [06:03]
C
You know, I was wondering if they explained in court why this is. These are felonies and not misdemeanors.
- [06:07]
B
You know, they said at one point, one of the prosecutors said that this office, as in the district Attorney's office, has a long standing interest in the integrity of business records in Manhattan. You know, it's like, I think that they're kind of like, well, this is in our backyard and we're allowed to sort of police our backyard. I mean, that's the extent of the argument right now, like, whether you want to, you know, how persuaded you are by that. I don't know. It struck me as a kind of funny thing to say that we've got a longstanding interest in the integrity of these records. But that's, you know, but I think it does.
- [06:40]
C
Do you think it could be read as, like a way of emphasizing that this isn't a politically motivated or personally motivated prosecution that the Manhattan DA does?
- [06:51]
B
Exactly. I think that that is. They're saying, right, that it's like, yep, this happened here. That's why we're bringing the case here. You know, that came to our attention and we have an interest in it. It sounded a little lame in the courtroom, but it's pretty straightforward.
- [07:03]
C
And to not prosecute that, if you are aware of it, would be political. I mean, it's political either Way, kind of, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, just walk us through what happened in the courts. I mean, there was so much speculation about whether Trump would be put in handcuffs, this question of a mug shot, whether the judge would issue a gag order. I was personally wondering whether you would be something in question. Although apparently bail was never even. That's not even a thing for cases.
- [07:30]
B
Of this kind, as the judge pointed out. It's interesting because all of this is happening against a backdrop where in New York, as in other states, there's this very intense political debate about bail, pre trial detention. And the judge today pointed out that these offenses are not bail eligible under New York's current rules. And so basically, yeah, so just to back up, an arraignment is a defendant's first appearance before a judge in a criminal case. In New York City, criminal defendants in Manhattan specifically are typically arraigned on a sort of special courtroom that's just an arraignment courtroom on the first floor of Manhattan Criminal Court. If you've ever seen Law and Order, they kind of recreate the feeling of this where it's like, you know, it's almost like it's an assembly line, you know, it's like, next, next, next.
- [08:22]
C
I don't watch Law and Order, but I watch Better Call Saul, and that's very much the vibe.
- [08:25]
B
Yeah. Pick your legal procedure in and out, few minutes. Yeah. And it's basically like they really take, you know, even serious assault cases, murder cases, like arraignments don't take very long. You know, they take 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and basically, you know, it's like, what are the charges? Who's the defendant? Does he have a record, open warrants, and then kind of a discussion of bail and whether this person is gonna be locked up before trial. And in Trump's case, in white collar cases, in cases where unlike if you get in a fight at a bar and they arrest you and then you're brought before a judge that night or the next day or whatever, when there's a big grand jury investigation, like in the Trump case, often the arraignments work a little bit different because the facts of the case are just better known to the DA's office. And everything's kind of been in slower motion. The DA's office and the lawyers of the person being investigated have been in contact and things like that. And so, yeah, there was this question of how will the arraignment of Trump, how will the arraignment of a former president work? Just because of so many factors getting Trump from Florida to New York, the Secret Service and security, and then the question of just how he's gonna be treated. The. The balance of the privileges extended to a former president versus the kind of, we want to treat everyone equally. So he was not handcuffed. He walked in and walked out of the courtroom on his own. And then the bail was not even sort of part of the discussion. But then, interestingly, the arraignment took, like, an hour, in part, because I think the District Attorney's office just wanted to get on the record their concerns about Trump's public comments about this case. And I think they wanted to basically sort of start the process of just that. They wanted to tell the judge, get on the record, that they were concerned about Trump's recent post, sort of warning that there'd be violence if he was indicted. Trump posted a picture of him and the Manhattan District Attorney where he's like, holding a baseball bat next to the District Attorney's head. And. And there's this whole back and forth. And the judge was sort of trying to navigate this today of just what to tell Trump about his tweeting. It's like the question that has consumed American politics for the last eight years and counting consumed Manhattan Criminal Court today, which is like, what do you tell Trump about the social media posts? Do you treat them literally or seriously, and what do you do with them and what can be done about them?
- [11:04]
C
But they didn't issue a gag order, which seems like the obvious. You know, you're worried about his social media posts, you're worried about him potentially inciting violence.
- [11:13]
B
But they. Tyler, how would they. You know, it's like. Because it's like, you know, I think the position.
- [11:18]
C
I know he got kicked off Twitter.
- [11:19]
B
But the position the judge is in is just like, how do you restrict the speech of somebody running for president? You know, the First Amendment issues that. That raises. I think it's a horrible problem to have to deal with because this judge was just reduced to literally saying to Trump in the courtroom, please do not subvert the rule of law. That was the request from the bench. And Trump was.
- [11:44]
C
What did Trump say? What did his lawyers say?
- [11:47]
B
It's interesting because they're not gonna. They can't get in a fight with the judge in a courtroom. The judge rules, the judge is in charge. So it doesn't matter if your former president, to that extent. They didn't really argue with him the way that if he was on the debate stage and a moderator said, can you stop inciting violence? Trump would probably Just tear a guy's head off for saying something like that. Or just try to push back the full on, no retreat, no surrender, just attack kind of Trump mode. But that was just. You can't do that when you're a criminal defendant in a courtroom. I mean, Trump said maybe eight words I counted in total in an hour today. I mean, he couldn't say anything. And the lawyers played relatively nice because this is the beginning of a long process and you can't antagonize a judge in a courtroom in this country.
- [12:43]
C
Soon, I'm gonna ask you about the extremely colorful details of what went down. But first, I mean, you've said a couple of things that are just so interesting. So the exceptional treatment of Trump. I mean, everyone agrees that this isn't an unusual arraignment. I mean, how much of that was something that Trump himself sort of set in motion versus stuff that had to be done in order to keep things peaceful versus stuff that's just kind of like standard form in New York City?
- [13:13]
B
Yeah, all of the above, I think, is probably the answer. There have been high profile prosecutions in this courtroom in the recent history. Harvey Weinstein, dsk, Ghislaine Maxwell. It's Manhattan Criminal Court. There's high profile proceedings in this building all the time. That said, the judge today said, one of the lawyers said that the hearing today required weeks of security planning. The streets were shut down outside the courtroom. There was crowds that were fine, you know, but also kind of crazy out there.
- [13:56]
C
You know, what were they?
- [13:57]
B
You know, it was just like you.
- [13:59]
C
Were in the heart of it.
- [14:00]
B
It was just, you know, there's a little pond outside the courthouse called Collect Pond Park. It's actually sort of the memorial to the pond that was like the freshwater source for Manhattan from the 1600s to like the early 1800s. And then they, you know, it's what remains, basically. And nice little metaphor. And the cops had set up barricades. So there was a sort of pro Trump side and an anti Trump side of the park. And they did their best to kind of keep people in their respective halves of the park. And the pro Trump side was a bunch of. I mean, there's a group called the New York Young Republicans Club, and they are an old organization that was recently sort of taken over by a bunch of young kind of maga ites, sort of Trump disciples. And they had helped organize the sort of the pro Trump side of the event. And it was sort of a mix of kind of Trump diehards with like 2020 gear out and then Trump weirdos kind of ranting and raving and Marjorie Taylor Greene. And then sort of some politicians came by. So first George Santos came through, and I actually thought somebody was gonna get hurt. I mean, there was a crush of reporters that sort of surrounded Santos. And then Santos kind of never stopped walking. Cause he was just trying to find somewhere to stand, and people just wouldn't let him stand. And so he kind of did a circle through the park, and it was just, you know, it was like being at a packed concert where you're just like, no one is in control of the crowd. And people were just kind of heckling Santos. And Santos was just. I don't know what he was doing, but he did kind of a lap through the park, and then he, like, walked out. And then Marjorie Taylor Greene, who had been invited by the New York Young Republicans to speak, came and gave a speech through a bullhorn that was being sort of drowned out first by a bunch of yellow, and then by a contingent led by Jamaal Bowman, the congressman from Westchester and the Bronx. He and a bunch of other local New York elected officials had all got whistles, and they just kind of came in blowing whistles. I mean, it was just.
- [16:29]
C
Who gave them whistles?
- [16:30]
B
It was just. It was just. It was a real circus. But I really thought of it as, in some ways, you know, Trump launched his campaign last year. But I really, you know, and I've been out there. There had been a kind of pre. Event two weeks ago after the indictment, sort of got on everybody's radar. To me, what was out there was the Trump 2024 campaign. That's what it was. It was a campaign rally. The candidate was being arranged, but the rally was the rally. And that's what it was. It's like people just voicing their frustration and anger and confusion and. And obscenities that they want to get off their chest. And making Trump the vehicle for, like, all of those things and catharsis. Catharsis and just having a good time with it.
- [17:21]
C
Is that how being a Trump supporter manifests itself in New York City, which is notoriously liberal and not exactly. I mean, I guess it is. I was gonna say not Trump hq, but it kind of is.
- [17:34]
B
Yeah.
- [17:35]
C
Like, literally for his organization.
- [17:37]
B
You know, the crowd at these events, which were small and yet probably the ratio of Trump supporter to reporter at this event was like, if it was one to one, I'd be a conservative estimate. It's like, there's not a ton of people there, but they're really Intense. I mean, I've been to Trump rallies, and not everyone is like this. This was the total die hard, never surrender Trump contingent out there.
- [18:07]
C
And they were. I mean, on social media, I saw. I mean, there were people wearing. There was a guy wearing a Freddy Krueger costume. There were lots of people who were wearing, like, Trump costumes. Yeah, it wasn't just MAGA shirts. It was really outlandish stuff.
- [18:19]
B
But that's. I mean, I think catharsis, I think, is the.
- [18:21]
C
You know, it's like catharsis means a different thing for different people, but it's.
- [18:24]
B
Like, you know, costumes like, you know, performance, public performance. Like, that's what this is.
- [18:30]
C
I guess that is their candidate, you.
- [18:31]
B
Know, and then that's their guy. Yeah, yeah.
- [18:34]
C
Who was the intended audience? If Trump himself is physically unable to, I guess he maybe can watch the footage afterward. But do you think that they were doing this for him? Were they doing it for the liberals of New York? Were they doing it for you, the media?
- [18:46]
B
I mean, there's so many reporters there, and there's a lot of people there that obviously delight in the fact that you do something crazy outside, and then a bunch of people say, do you have some time for some questions? Take your picture and put you on camera.
- [19:00]
C
It's playing right into their hands.
- [19:03]
B
Totally. But I think also they feed off Trump. Trump feeds off them. I can't imagine that Trump thought anything but that. That was a great scene out there. If he had walked through, I think he would have been delighted, and especially considering how glum he was in the courtroom. Yeah, that was. In some ways, they wanted to buck up their guy, and maybe that was the intent of what they were doing.
- [19:31]
C
You'll hear more from Eric Latch in just a moment.
- [19:41]
D
I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global Editorial director.
- [19:44]
B
I'm Michael Kollory, Wired's Director of Consumer Tech and Culture.
- [19:48]
D
And I'm Lauren Good. I'm a senior correspondent at Wired. And our show, Uncanny Valley is about the people, power and influence of Silicon Valley. And right now, Silicon Valley and Washington have never been more intertwined. So each week we get together to talk about a big story, often at the intersection of tech and politics.
- [20:07]
B
Right. So whether we're talking about Trump, Coin, Doge, or Elon Musk, we will always explain how these Silicon Valley forces are.
- [20:15]
D
Affecting Washington and how they affect you. Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.
- [20:27]
C
You mentioned the courtroom. Let's go. Let's go back into the courtroom. So where were you sitting? How close were you to Trump? And you mentioned that he looked glum. I mean, was that the general vibe from him that he was unhappy to be there? Because I thought that this was like, supposed to be, you know, the beginning of a, you know, a beautiful hybrid presidential campaign perp walk thing.
- [20:46]
B
Yeah, he was not happy. This courtroom was on the 15th floor of the courthouse, which is a kind of, it's like an art deco, like courthouse from the 30s. It's beautiful in downtown Manhattan. It looks like, you know, think like Arkham Asylum, like Gotham City kind of courthouse. It's like that courthouse. And they had closed the 15th floor. The press sort of had lined up all night. They'd sort of let us in. You had to go through, like two waves of security. And then the people who had got seats in the courtroom itself, you know, are led into this kind of high ceilinged room with, you know, in God We Trust on the front wall and then two rows of pews with like a center aisle, and it's like seven rows of pews. So it's probably 30 reporters that got in the room. And there's like, at least as many, like, court officers sort of standing. You know, each court officer was assigned one aisle to like, look over and make sure that we weren't using electronics. They really, really, really did not want a photograph or recording of the arraignment to get out. So it's like the court officer's job was to just make sure everybody in there didn't pull out a phone. And, you know, then you had like, court clerks and then you had like, sort of other security personnel. And it was scheduled for like 2:15, like just before 2:30, like the door opens and Trump in, and he's just stone faced, and he just shuffles up the center aisle just not looking at anybody. Slowly, slowly making his way to the defense table and he sits down. Alvin Bragg, the district attorney, had walked in a few minutes earlier and was sitting in the front row behind the prosecutor's table. And then shortly after Trump came in, the judge entered and court officer shouted, all rise. And everybody stood up and everybody sat down. The judge sat down, he said, all right, let's arraign Mr. Trump.
- [22:50]
C
Literally, let's arraign Mr. Trump.
- [22:51]
B
Yeah, I mean, that was not the first thing he said, but he said, let's arraign Mr. Trump.
- [22:56]
C
Not President Trump, Mr. Trump.
- [22:57]
B
Mr. Trump. And then basically there was a bunch of back and forth between the prosecutors and Trump's lawyers about discovery and sort of the concerns that the government has that Trump will leak or post documents or information that he learns from his lawyers through the discovery process. In this case, there was a conversation which we already touched on, on sort of Trump's posting in general and sort of the rhetoric and this question that nobody wants to broach head on, but of how you control the speech of somebody running for president, of a former president, like in the context of a criminal trial. And then the question of the schedul of the trial itself, the prosecution asked for January of 2024. Trump's lawyers want it a little later. They want it in the spring of 2024. And these things take time in the schedule. These things can drag. And I think the presumption is that there's going to be a flurry of motions from Trump's lawyers to try to get this thing tossed or reduced before you get to the trial. But potentially, like, there's going to be a Trump trial in the middle of a, like, presidential nominating process.
- [24:11]
C
There's been a lot of discourse, you know, sort of leading up to this moment about these particular charges, whether this is the right thing to indict Trump on and the fact that it's the first case and that it is, you know, it's incredibly complicated. It is a lot less straightforward than he, you know, incited an insurrection on January 6th. And I'm wondering if, you know, after your experience being in the courtroom today, hearing the details of the charges, you know, seeing the, you know, just getting a sense of the atmosphere inside the court and out, whether, I guess, like, if that changed your opinion at all of, you know, whether this is the right thing to do or whether this is going to be, you know, actually going to be effective in terms of bringing Trump to justice.
- [24:53]
B
I was surprised by how. I was surprised on two levels. I was surprised first by how serious and really dramatic it felt in the courtroom. I mean, we've all. If you live in the United States of America, you've seen Trump everywhere, on tv, in the White House, on the campaign trail. He's omnipresent. You have not seen him in a courtroom. That's just not a venue that he has had to navigate. And it's a very complicated one for him, I think, and for anybody. I mean, I think a courtroom puts strictures on a person, on a defendant. And even for Trump, that is a big problem, and I think pretty scary, the power of the justice system targeting you. And the other thing I was thinking about is, to your point, about complexity. I think that. And I put myself in this category. I think during the Trump administration, there was this idea of sort of political concept of like, will it stick? Will it be. And this is like the Mueller report question is like, how complicated is this? And will people care? Or whatever. And the thing that I was thinking about in the courtroom is like, courts don't care about that. Courts do complexity all the time. And the gears keep turning. It doesn't slow down because something gets complicated. And I think that that is just. It's something that I think is gonna take some time, I think, to settle in. So it's like, I won't even touch the question of whether this case is a good one and the order that these cases are being brought in and the broader politics. I mean, those are so debates that are beyond me. I just think that, like, they probably.
- [26:36]
C
Also don't even matter to brag. I mean, it's just. It's not.
- [26:39]
B
Yeah, exactly. You know, it's not a political problem. This is a legal problem. It's not a political situation. It's not a cultural situation that he has to navigate. It's not a business situation, but like a bankruptcy or something. It's like he's in serious legal trouble.
- [26:56]
C
We've never really seen him navigate something like that before, as you said. It's interesting because even though it's not a political situation or a cultural situation, it still seemingly has been a boon to his actual political situation, which is the fact that he's running for president. I mean, the general feeling, and maybe this is incorrect, is that he has essentially clinched the Republican presidential nomination with this indictment, which is weird. The fact that he is now being criminally charged would help him at least in that regard. I mean, do you agree with that?
- [27:29]
B
You know, it's like, can anybody, even Donald Trump, survive a three week trial where, like, his face is visible to the world, everybody reading, like, the ups and downs of his mood from the defense table? I don't know.
- [27:44]
C
It's a good question because I feel like there's been so much discussion over the potential of a mugshot. And apparently sources have said that he wants to put the mugshot on campaign T shirts and campaign material. But that's like a, you know, a very, like a static image you can pose for a mug shot. You can choose to smile or not smile. Whereas in, you're right. Over the course of a three week trial, you're going to respond in ways that are maybe not.
- [28:06]
B
They're not even saying he didn't you know, it's like the Trump thing is like, never say you didn't do it. Just say it's not a big deal. But, like, think about how different that is in a courtroom.
- [28:14]
C
You know, these distinctions are actually incredibly important.
- [28:17]
B
They matter. They matter, you know, and it's like they're saying these are trumped up charges, you know, like, that they're making more of this than what it is, but they're not saying he didn't do these things.
- [28:29]
C
Well, thank you so much, Eric. I hope that you can get some rest.
- [28:32]
B
Thanks, Tyler.
- [28:38]
C
Eric Latch is a staff writer at the New Yorker. You can read his dispatch from the courtroom@newyorker.com now, this has been the political scene. I'm Tyler Foggatt. The show is produced by Michelle Moses with help from Sidney Cobb. Our executive producer is Steven Valentino. Our theme music is by Alison Layton Brown. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week.
- [29:09]
D
What the hell is going on right now and why is it happening like this? At Wired, we're obsessed with getting to the bottom of those questions on a daily basis. And maybe you are, too, Katie. I'm Katie Drummond, the global editorial director of Wired, and I'm hosting our new podcast series, the Big Interview. Each week I'll sit down with some of the most interesting, provocative and influential people who are shaping our right now. Big Interview conversations are fun.
- [29:36]
B
I want a shark that.
- [29:38]
D
That eats the Internet, that turns it all off, unfiltered and unafraid.
- [29:42]
B
So in a lot of ways, I try to be an antidote to the unimaginable faucet of reactionary content that you see online.
- [29:49]
D
To the best of my ability, every week, we're going to offer you the ultimate luxury of our times. Meaning and context. True or false. You, Brian Johnson, the man sitting across from me, one day, at some point, as of yet undefined in the future, you will die.
- [30:07]
C
False.
- [30:08]
D
Tell me more. Listen to the Big Interview right now in the same place you find Wired's Uncanny Valley podcast. Subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts.
- [30:21]
C
From. Prx.