The Notre-Dame Fire Could Be a Turning Point for the Macron Presidency

Summary

---

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: The Notre-Dame Fire Could Be a Turning Point for the Macron Presidency

Date: April 18, 2019
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Lauren Collins (Staff Writer, The New Yorker)

---

Episode Overview

This episode centers on the devastating Notre-Dame Cathedral fire in Paris and its broader implications for French politics, particularly for President Emmanuel Macron. Host Dorothy Wickenden and Paris-based New Yorker writer Lauren Collins discuss the immediate aftermath of the fire, the history and symbolism of the cathedral, the debates around its restoration, and how the tragedy intersects with France’s ongoing political unrest, especially the Yellow Vest (Gilets Jaunes) crisis. The conversation also explores whether this moment could serve as an instrument for national renewal and political advantage for Macron.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. First-Hand Account of Notre-Dame Before the Fire (02:45-04:29)

• Lauren Collins describes her recent visit inside Notre-Dame’s “forest” (the ancient woodwork beneath the roof), providing vivid details of the fragile state of the building and foreshadowing the tragedy:
  • “I was there, and I was kind of looking out over all of Paris, and it's this incredible experience... after Monday, it seems like historical luck more than just a nice thing to have seen.” (03:31)
• The renovation, though desperately needed, was underfunded and organized in an ad hoc way.

2. Responsibility & The Building as a Living Structure (04:02-05:33)

• Collins reflects on the complexity of caring for a centuries-old historical artifact, quoting a technician:
  • “In wanting to give her a second youth, we have perhaps destroyed her.” (Olivier Baumgartner, 04:22)
• She emphasizes the impossibility of “stasis” for such a building, which is both perpetually evolving and in need of repair.

3. Heroic Rescue and Preparedness (05:33-06:41)

• The efficient and well-drilled response of the Paris Fire Department, who saved irreplaceable relics, with 100 firefighters trained for such rescues.
• Collins describes the atmospheric testimony of Father Fournier:
  • “He said that he was inside Notre Dame and that there was an orange and red rain falling down around him.” (05:56)

4. Historical Perspective & Public Reaction (06:41-09:23)

• Notre-Dame’s centuries-old resilience: looted in the Revolution, targeted by Nazis.

• Multiple debates arise instantly in the wake of the fire, including how to restore the spire and which architectural approach to take.

  • Quoting Edouard Philippe, France’s Prime Minister: Should it reflect modern issues, or be an identical rebuild?

• Collins links the restoration debate to the 19th-century renovation by Viollet-le-Duc, arguing:

  • “Viollet Le Duc's philosophy was very much when you're doing a renovation, you're not trying to just restore a building to exactly what it was before. You know, you're trying to make something that resembles the time.” (08:20)
  • The upcoming competition could yield something “exciting or thrilling or reflective of our era” but is sure to provoke controversy.

5. Money, Philanthropy, and Politics (09:23-11:18)

• Massive donations from France’s richest families (850 million euros pledged) spark controversy amid the Yellow Vest crisis.
  • The generosity contrasts with complaints about neglecting social needs, as the same elites benefited from Macron’s removal of the wealth tax.
  • “Wouldn't it be better if you paid your taxes and then the state had more money and could actually decide how to deploy that money in the service of Notre Dame and other things.” (Lauren Collins, 10:55)

6. The Yellow Vest Movement & Macron’s Political Response (12:03-13:46)

• Wickenden asks about the “Yellow Vests,” a protest movement against inequality and austerity.
• Collins details the movement’s root causes and how Macron postponed a crucial speech to address French grievances because of the fire.

7. Macron’s ‘Grand Débat’ and Public Perception (13:46-15:24)

• “Grand Débat”: Macron’s country-wide listening tour as an attempt to reconnect with the public.
  • “He stood up there for six hours and just absorbed questions, suggestions and resentment... I think people appreciated his willingness to put himself in front of the people, rather than managing the crisis from behind the gates of the Elysee.” (Lauren Collins, 14:39)
• Despite skepticism about concrete outcomes, Macron earned a measure of public respect for engagement.

8. Macron’s Emotional Resonance and Missteps (15:24-16:19)

• Collins discusses Macron's sometimes tone-deaf remarks, notably about an injured elderly protester:
  • “He couldn't resist saying, I hope she gets better and maybe she'll next time learn a little bit of sages wisdom... a lot of people did not take too kindly to that comment on an emotional level.” (Lauren Collins, 15:52)

9. Symbolism, Rebirth and the Future of Macron’s Presidency (16:19-17:28)

• While the cover art for The New Yorker expresses hope for "rebirth," French press remains skeptical:
  • Le Monde: describes the Yellow Vest unrest as "one of the most serious social crises the country has known for 30 years." (16:31)
• Lauren Collins concludes:
  • “If nothing else, the fire has bought him time… The only thing that is going to matter... are the reforms that he announces, and whether they are sufficiently extensive to satisfy and to heal the social fracture that the Gilets Jaunes have both identified and in ways amplified.” (16:54)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Lauren Collins on the immediacy of crisis:
  “When anything like this happens, various debates around it break out very fast.” (07:20)

• On Notre-Dame’s spire and architectural authenticity:
  “The spire is to Notre Dame as the pyramid is in front of the Louvre to the Louvre, practically.” (Lauren Collins, 09:38)

• On philanthropy and inequality:
  “There's a controversy... how come all this money is sitting around to give to Notre Dame at the same time, when nobody can find any money to give to the people who are clearly struggling?” (Collins, 09:55)

---

Timeline & Timestamps

• [01:16] Introduction & recap of Notre-Dame fire
• [02:40] Lauren Collins describes her visit to Notre-Dame pre-fire
• [04:02] Discussion of restoration efforts and building’s frailty
• [05:33] Accounts of the urgent rescue of relics
• [06:41] Public debates: how to rebuild, what to symbolize
• [09:23] Spire history and philanthropy controversy
• [12:03] Yellow Vest movement background and context
• [13:46] Analysis of Macron’s Grand Débat
• [15:24] Macron’s difficulties connecting emotionally
• [16:19] National symbolism, the road ahead, and political implications

---

Episode Tone & Style

• Conversational, reflective, and incisive.
• Balanced between historical background, deep reporting, and analysis of ongoing political events.
• Mix of vivid, almost literary reportage with sharp political analysis and a touch of wry humor.

---

Summary Prepared For: Listeners seeking in-depth understanding of Notre-Dame’s fire, its symbolism in French life, and its potential as a catalyst for political change in contemporary France.

Transcript

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

As summer draws to a close and the kids go back to school, I know I'm going to want to keep in touch with my kids at a price I can afford. Back to school Shopping can be a hassle, but your phone plan shouldn't be. That's why I made the switch to Mint Mobile. For a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while other parents are sweating overage charges, I have a little bit more room in my budget for cool back to school threads. Say bye bye to your overpriced wireless plan's jaw dropping monthly bills and unexpected overages, Mint Mobile is here to rescue you. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Dish overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. This year, skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. Get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a [e-mail] New Yorker that's that's mintmobile.com New Yorker upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

This is the Political Scene, a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about Politics. It's Thursday, April 18th. I'm Dorothy Wickenden, executive editor of the New Yorker. On Monday evening, a fire ravaged Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, destroying its spire and its roof. But much of the medieval structure and its historical treasures were spared. The conflagration came at a moment of political reckoning for France's President Emmanuel Macron. That night he was due to give a speech outlining his response to the yellow vest crisis which has been agitating the country since last November. Instead, Macron rushed to Notre Dame, which he described as the epicenter of Parisian life. He toured the sc, then delivered a televised address the next day, vowing to rebuild the cathedral as soon as possible. I'm telling you this tonight with force. We are a people of builders. We have so much to rebuild. So yes, we will rebuild the Notre Dame Cathedral even more beautifully. And I want this to be done within five years. We can do it. And here again we will mobilize. Lauren Collins joins me from Paris to discuss the mood in the city and why this tragedy may offer a possible moment of political renewal for President Macron and France. Lauren, welcome.

[Lauren Collins]

Thanks, Dorothy. I wish it were a happier occasion, but I'm glad to be speaking with you nonetheless.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Me, too. It's been too long. So just a few weeks before the fire, you were actually inside the forest in Notre Dame, that lattice of wooden beams under the cathedral's roof. You were doing some reporting on the renovations that were then underway. Could you tell us a little bit about what you saw in there?

[Lauren Collins]

So I had started thinking about a piece on the renovations in the fall, and I went up kind of in the rafters and around on the balustrades, I guess you would call them, of the Belfry Towers and all that. I had finally decided I was going to write something at the end of March. And so I think on March 27, it was. I took a construction elevator up, you know, 200ft to the top of the roof and was able to poke around in the scaffolding and see everything that was going on up there. And I was there, and I was kind of looking out over all of Paris, and it's this incredible experience, both the kind of panorama, but then up close, you see things like there was a little pigeon that had made a nest right in the neck of one of the gargoyles. And so I was thinking, what luck this is to get to do this. And, you know, after Monday, it seems like historical luck more than just a nice thing to have seen.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

You wrote about it really vividly for the New Yorker website about limestone that was so fragile that you brushed a finger against it. It ran like sand through an hourglass. I wondered whether it is believed that the restoration effort might be partly to blame. You interviewed Olivier Baumgartner, a technician who was working on the restoration, who said very poignantly, in wanting to give her a second youth, we have perhaps destroyed her.

[Lauren Collins]

And just to be clear, I mean, that was no admission of blame on his part. He finished the job on Thursday, last week, before the fire started on Monday. I think it helps to think of a building like Notre Dame as a living building. Kind of like we say, the Constitution is a living document. It's never finished. I mean, there's always something falling apart that has to be replaced. You know, I don't think there you could ever come to a moment of stasis in the life of a building like that that has evolved over centuries and centuries and centuries and has different parts that are kind of living and evolving and falling apart on very different timelines, but yeah, I mean, the renovation desperately needed to happen. It got started later than it should have. The money was not exactly pouring in for it. I mean, I was there under the auspices of a foundation that had been put together in this kind of ad hoc manner, just looking to raise money from Americans for the renovation.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

I love the story in the Times this morning about Father Fournier, the chaplain of the Paris Fire Department who led the effort to rescue the treasures, including the crown of thorns and the nail and piece of wood said to have been part of the cross used in the crucifixion.

[Lauren Collins]

Well, they had an amazing plan in place. I mean, whatever rounds of blame assigning and finger pointing will go on in the wake of the fire. The firefighters had 100 firefighters who were trained to find and rescue relics. And you know, they had all of these protocols. I mean, for instance, they didn't use the water cannons at full force out of concern for the rose windows, which, you know, wonderfully and seemingly miraculously were saved. They were able to go in and get these relics that are of historical and also, you know, deep religious importance. I remember, I mean, the thing that really stuck out to me, you know, from the chaplain's testimony was he said that he was inside Notre Dame and that there was an orange and red rain falling down around him.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Also, Notre Dame has such an extraordinary history. It has survived far worse than what it has just been through. During the French Revolution, as I've been reading, it was looted and partly destroyed and then rededicated as a temple to the goddess reason. And In World War II, of course, Hitler had ordered Nazi troops to reduce all of Paris, Notre Dame in particular, to a pile of rubble. So I'm just curious about what the response has been in Paris by Parisians.

[Lauren Collins]

That is a multi part question. I think there are a number of responses. Obviously the first immediate and most emotional response was, you know, the same devastation and sadness and, you know, unhappy awe. I think that was felt all over the world. But, you know, when anything like this happens, various debates around it break out very fast. And so there are a few conversations that are going on. One of them is, what do we do now? Edouard Philippe, who's the Prime Minister, announced that there's going to be an international competition for architects. And he tweeted, should we rebuild the spire? Should we rebuild it identically? Should it be adapted to the techniques and issues of our era? And of course, that immediately caused a polemic, as the French say. I mean, something that's interesting, you were talking about the history of Notre Dame and its architecture. So in 1831, when Victor Hugo wrote the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Notre Dame was in abject shape. It was post revolution. It had been neglected, it was completely falling apart. And so much of what was lost in Monday's fire, the spire and that entire area was part of a renovation that happened in the 1850s that was led by Eugene Viollet Le Duc, who also renovated a number of other famous French monuments. Viollet Le Duc's philosophy was very much when you're doing a renovation, you're not trying to just restore a building to exactly what it was before. You know, you're trying to make something that resembles the time. So I feel like this competition and this rebuilding could yield something kind of exciting or thrilling or reflective of our era. I mean, there's a way in which you can think of this as an opportunity for the French and the Parisians of 2019 to erect a monument of their time. But obviously, there are a lot of different opinions about that, and that's going to be a long and contentious conversation to come.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And the spire itself, as Adam Gopnik, our colleague, wrote about this week, the spire itself was not an original part of the structure. It was a Leduc who built it.

[Lauren Collins]

Yeah, this fire was brand new in Notre Dame terms. I mean, in Notre Dame terms, it's practically the spire is to Notre Dame is the pyramid is in front of the Louvre to the Louvre, practically. I mean, when you look at the lifespan of the building. But another conversation that's happening is so very quickly after the extent of the damages became clear, a number of France's richest kind of entrepreneurial families said that they were all going to give money to help with the renovation. There's been a total of 850 million euros raised already. But this is a tricky and a fraught thing, coming as it does in the middle of the Gilets Jaune crisis. There's a controversy that has now arisen around that with people saying, well, how come all this money is sitting around to give to Notre Dame at the same time, when nobody can find any money to give to the people who are clearly struggling? And I know that can, and some people have said that sounds kind of like the unhelpful mixing of two issues. But the reason why the debate is a little bit more trenchant than that is because one of the things that the Gilets Jaune, among other factions of French society, have been upset about is that one of Macron's first acts was to get rid of a wealth tax, to get rid of a tax that applied to the very families that have given so lavishly to this building. So in a way, people are saying, you know, wouldn't it be better if you paid your taxes and then the state had more money and could actually decide how to deploy that money in the service of Notre Dame and other things.

[Katie Drummond]

I'm Katie Drummond. I'm Wired's Global Editorial Director. I'm Michael Coloury, Wired's Director of Consumer, Tech and Culture.

[Lauren Collins]

And I'm Lauren Good.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

I'm a senior correspondent at Wired.

[Katie Drummond]

And our show, Uncanny Valley is about.

[Lauren Collins]

The people, power and influence of Silicon Valley.

[Katie Drummond]

And right now, Silicon Valley and Washington have never been more intertwined. So each week we get together to talk about a big story, often at the intersection of tech and politics. Right. So whether we're talking about Trump, Coin, Doge or Elon Musk, we will always explain how these Silicon Valley forces are affecting Washington and how they affect you. Make sure you're following Uncanny Valley in your podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

The President was due to give this important speech on Monday evening about the yellow Vests, or Gilets Jaunes, as you call them in France, that crisis, which has really come to represent very strong public dissatisfaction with his presidency. Maybe just give us a little bit of background on the movement.

[Lauren Collins]

Okay, so the Gilets Jean movement has been a series of protests that have been happening every Saturday since November. And kind of the detonator for them, as they say in the French media, was an increase in the tax on gas. But I mean, obviously it's a movement that represents some long festering resentments and inequalities in French society. So anyway, the Gilets Jaunes were, for instance, responsible for the sacking of the Champs Elysees. I mean, probably readers have seen images of that. So Macron's political fate has sort of been hanging in the balance. And Monday night he was due to address the nation to give a speech on live television announcing major measures, major reforms that he was going to undertake as a response to the Gilets Jaune. And then the national conversation that had arisen out of the Gilets Jaunes movement. Macron had initiated something he called Le Grand Abbas, the Great Debate, which was kind of a two month long listening tour of the country. And he was set to deliver his conclusions that he had drawn from that conversation on Monday night. It's been delayed and so far it hasn't been announced when he's going to do that.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Tell us A little bit more about the Grand Debat. How did that listening tour go?

[Lauren Collins]

The Grand Debat, you know, when he announced to people, I don't know, there was a lot of skepticism. Okay, a debate is going to solve the problem of people not having enough money to buy food at the end of the month? Probably not. And of course it hasn't solved it and we don't know yet what concrete reforms are going to come out of it. But it did at the very least buy him both some time and a few points, I think, in public opinion. So what happened is he went around the country, he went to all the regions of France and he just held these marathon meetings and basically stood up in front of groups of mayors, groups of citizens and took flak for hours and hours. I mean, the first one was in front of a group of mayors. And I think he stood up there for six hours and just absorbed questions, suggestions and resentment in his shirt sleeves. There was also one he, he convened one with the intellectuals of France, which was broadcast live on the radio and it went until 2 o' clock in the morning. I mean, people were kind of like people were sneaking out and falling asleep and. But I think people appreciated his willingness to put himself in front of the people, I guess rather than managing the crisis from behind the gates of the Elysee. I went to one of the debates and. And again, it remains to be seen what concrete measures will come of this. But his grasp of the minutiae of the issues was really impressive and I think that if nothing else has made an impression on people.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

And what about the emotional resonance of all of this? Was he able to address that?

[Lauren Collins]

I think the jury's out on that. So the Giles Jeunes protests have continued and there was women in her 70s who was very badly hurt at a protest a few weeks ago. She was protesting in a place where the police had forbidden protesting, but she was there and she got knocked over. There's an investigation that's going ongoing into whether she was knocked over by the police or not. And Macron, in kind of sending his wishes for her recuperation, couldn't resist saying, I hope she gets better and maybe she'll next time learn a little bit of sages wisdom. You know, I think a lot of people did not take too kindly to that comment on an emotional level.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

We have a beautiful cover to commemorate this this week. I don't know if you've seen it yet. It's by Bob Stack and it's called Our Lady. And he rather romantically says, you know, if history teaches us anything, it's that out of the flames can come rebirth. But I wanted to contrast that with some of the more skeptical things that the French press has been saying. Le Monde described the Gilets Jaune as one of the most serious social crises the country has known for 30 years. So do you think that Macron will be able to use this moment to political advantage?

[Lauren Collins]

If nothing else, the fire has bought him time. It'll be interesting to see how the architectural restoration dovetails with this program of national renewal. The only thing that is going to matter, really, are the are the reforms that he announces, and whether they are sufficiently extensive to satisfy and to heal the social fracture that the Gilets Jaunes have both identified and in ways amplified.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Thanks so much, Lauren.

[Lauren Collins]

You're welcome, Dorothy.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

Lauren Collins is a staff writer at the New Yorker and the author of when in Love in a Second Language. This has been the political scene from the New Yorker. You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts by searching for the New Yorker in your podcast app and find more political analysis and commentary on on newyorker.com feel free to rate and review the program on Apple Podcasts. Our theme music is by Russell Gillespie. This program is produced by Alex Barron for newyorker.com with assistance from Kylie Warner. I'm Dorothy Wickenden.

[Lauren Collins]

America is changing, and so is the world. But what's happening in America isn't just a cause of global upheaval. It's also a symptom of disruption that's happening everywhere. I'm Asma Khalid in Washington, D.C. i'm Tristan Redman in London, and this is the Global Story. Every weekday we'll bring you a story from this intersection where the world and America meet. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Dorothy Wickenden]

From.

[Lauren Collins]

PRX.