The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode Summary: "The Pandemic Is Wreaking Havoc in America’s Prisons and Jails"

Date: May 4, 2020
Host: David Remnick
Featured Guests:

• Kai Wright (Host, United States of Anxiety, WNYC)
• Udi Ofer (Deputy National Political Director and Director, Justice Division, ACLU)
• Governor Phil Murphy (New Jersey)

Overview

This episode takes a deep dive into the devastating impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the U.S. prison and jail system. Through conversations with advocates and policymakers, David Remnick and Kai Wright explore how the virus has exposed longstanding issues within mass incarceration, the limited decarceration measures taken in response, and the challenges and politics of releasing inmates. Particular attention is paid to the health vulnerabilities of incarcerated populations, the responses by different states (including New Jersey’s approach), and the uncertain road ahead for both decarceration efforts and returning citizens.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Threat of COVID-19 in Prisons and Jails

[02:31]

• The pandemic poses acute dangers inside correctional facilities, where social distancing is impractical.
• As of the episode’s recording, at least 150 documented deaths in prisons and jails, with numbers likely underestimated and growing.
• Facilities are “impossible to social distance in” (Kai Wright).

2. Limited Scope of Decarceration

[03:32]

• Over 2.3 million incarcerated in the U.S., with only about 38,000 released in response to the pandemic (less than 2%).
• Wright and Ofer both emphasize this scale is insufficient to make a significant difference in viral transmission.

3. Health Vulnerabilities in Correctional Populations

[04:52]

• According to Udi Ofer (ACLU), “about 40% of people in prison before COVID-19 have at least one chronic health condition... HIV is four to five times higher... people are older.”
• The most at-risk groups targeted by CDC are disproportionately represented behind bars.

4. State-Level Responses and Bipartisan Efforts

[06:12]

• Ofer highlights positive but limited actions in several states:
  • Colorado: 40% jail population reduction via executive orders.
  • Wisconsin, Kentucky, Washington, New Jersey: Each have initiated population reductions, sometimes through bipartisan cooperation.
• “I think everyone needs to do a lot more, but I also want to give credit where credit is due.” (Ofer, [06:12])

5. Hope—and Limits—for Decarceration Momentum

[08:20]

• Ofer is cautiously optimistic that public support for releases during COVID-19 could be a “tipping point” in challenging mass incarceration.
• Emphasis on recognizing incarcerated people as “our families, our neighbors, our human beings.”

6. The Challenge of Releasing ‘Violent Offenders’

[09:23]

• Most releases have excluded those convicted of violent crimes—many of whom are elderly and statistically less likely to reoffend.
• “The recidivism rate for elderly people is at the single digits, if not lower. People age out of crime.” (Ofer, [10:37])

7. Correctional Staff Concerns and Shifting Empathy

[11:04]

• Correctional officer unions have been quieter than expected, as staff are also at risk; Ofer notes developing increased empathy toward staff:
  • “Maybe we, even as the decarcerators, are developing more empathy for the people who not only live inside prisons and jails, but also work inside.” (Ofer, [12:52])

New Jersey’s Approach: Governor Phil Murphy Speaks

8. Decision-Making, Criticisms, and Constraints

[13:57]

• Murphy aware of risks in correctional settings early on, but emphasizes caution and responsibility in release decisions:
  • Priority given to releasing by age, health, proximity to release/parole.
  • Ensuring released have “something to be released to… a place to go, a home, some sort of a safety net.” ([14:34])
• Responds to criticism of a slow process:
  • “I've got to do this responsibly... No state... has been more aggressive [than New Jersey], but we've also made sure that we've done it as right as we can.” ([16:00])

9. Tensions with Unions and Political Spectrum

[17:12]

• Murphy has not personally faced union pushback but acknowledges their concern for their own members’ health.
• Stresses that violent offenders will not be released:
  • “There's no scenario where we can let all prisoners out. I've got to draw the line between violent and nonviolent.” ([18:17])
• Emphasizes making decisions based on data and science, not politics.

Reentry and Long-Term Implications

10. The Complexity of Reentry During COVID-19

[20:07]

• Many of the released go to home detention; the challenge is compounded by the fact that prisons have become de facto social service providers.
• Wright: “It may [make reentry] a much easier process when this is over as well.”

11. Potential Lasting Effects on the Criminal Justice System

[21:27]

• Wright is skeptical pandemic will shift America’s punitive views:
  • “Our faith… that punishment and incarceration is the way to deal with social ills—I don't see how this changes that in any way. That’s rooted in 150 years’ worth of racist ideas...”
• Concern that the crisis could further disenfranchise groups most affected by incarceration, especially in an election year.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Udi Ofer (ACLU), on public perception:
  • “We've always struggled to make the public and politicians realize that people who are living in jails and prisons are our families, our neighbors, our human beings.” ([08:34])
• Governor Phil Murphy, on release priorities:
  • “We've got to be very careful... not just the right people are being released, but that there's something for them to be released to.” ([14:42])
• Kai Wright, on the limits of reform:
  • “The only thing that would upend that is a change in political power. And indeed, I'm probably most concerned about the ways in which this crisis will decrease the political power of the communities that are most affected by mass incarceration.” ([21:55])

Important Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------|---------------| | Acute dangers in prisons | [02:56] | | Decarceration numbers | [03:32] | | Chronic health in prisons | [04:52] | | State-level reforms | [06:12] | | Hope for lasting reform | [08:20] | | 'Violent' vs. 'nonviolent' | [09:23] | | Staff response | [11:04] | | Governor Murphy interview | [13:40] | | Release criteria | [14:34] | | Reentry challenges | [20:07] |

Tone

The episode is sober, urgent, and deeply empathetic, reflecting the high stakes for incarcerated people, correctional staff, and wider communities in the face of the pandemic. While offering cautious hope about some reforms, the speakers keep a realist’s gaze on the complexity—and the enduring challenges—of changing criminal justice in America.

For listeners:
This episode provides a layered, human look at the intersection of a public health crisis, criminal justice, and policy; a vital resource for understanding how the pandemic is exposing—and occasionally accelerating—needed change in the American prison system.