The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: The Power of “No”

Date: December 29, 2016
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Jelani Cobb (Staff Writer, The New Yorker)

Overview

This episode of The Political Scene focuses on the dynamic between resistance and progress in American politics, especially in the wake of Donald Trump's election in 2016. Dorothy Wickenden and Jelani Cobb discuss historical and contemporary protest movements, the implications of Republican obstruction during the Obama years, and the potency of grassroots activism in defending democratic principles. They draw lines between the political turbulence of 1968 and present-day anxieties, unpacking what forms resistance might take under the Trump administration and reflecting on the enduring relevance of saying “no” to threats against hard-won civil liberties.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Parallels Between 1968 and 2016

• Biden’s Analogy to 1968: Wickenden notes Joe Biden’s comparison of the post-2016 climate to the tumult of 1968, arguing that both eras required renewed grassroots activism (03:08).
  • Cobb’s Response: He agrees, highlighting that “1968 was such a flashpoint in terms of how people saw the importance of social organizing and protest.” He mentions Tom Hayden’s concept of “participatory democracy” as especially relevant again (03:38).

2. Young Progressives and Political Shock

• Generational Contrast: Wickenden observes that many liberal young people are stunned by Trump’s victory, having grown up under Obama, assuming continual progress (04:04).
  • Cobb: Emphasizes that “no progress is permanent” (05:03), noting historical cycles where advances (e.g., Voting Rights Act) have later been rolled back:

    “...this is something that young people who have never known any president other than Barack Obama might be shocked by. But certainly a reading of American history would suggest that we could have anticipated this almost from the moment that Barack Obama was inaugurated.” (06:13)

3. Movements Born from Concrete Threats

• “Abstract Principles Become Concrete Concerns”: Movements often coalesce when vague principles are directly threatened, e.g., nuclear weapons or civil rights (06:28).
  • Black Lives Matter and Occupy: Cobb identifies these as products of immediate injustices and violations made viscerally clear to the public (07:00).

    “We might see the Trump era providing a kind of multiplicity of those moments.” (07:53)

4. The Democratic Party’s Path Forward

• Lessons from Republican Obstruction: Wickenden asks whether Bernie Sanders and the Democrats should adopt Republican-style resistance (08:11).
  • Cobb: Suggests that “obstructionism... might actually not be a bad approach," highlighting the efficacy GOP resistance had against Obama (08:45).

    "I think in this instance, it would benefit Democrats to actually take a page from that playbook along issues of principle." (08:48)

  • He warns, however, that cooperating with Trump risks “rewarding bad behavior and thereby make it possibly more entrenched.” (09:49)
• The Moral Logic of Opposition:
  • Cobb doubts direct equivalence with past political opposition, emphasizing the unique hazards Trump presents:

    "Do you work with someone who has flouted the norms... politically mainstreamed white nationalism... spoken in really troublesome and problematic ways about women...?" (10:23)

5. Protest Movements: Standing Rock & Women’s March

• Standing Rock Protests: Seen as an example of resistance yielding success, at least temporarily, through collective action (12:14).
  • Cobb: Points to the significance of people resisting incursions on freedom, highlighting the intersectional force at play:

    “The issue of Standing Rock that made it appealing for people to be involved with was recognizing that not only was this a concern about indigenous lands... but also the fact that this was a pipeline that had been rerouted from other areas at the request of people who live there.” (12:48)

• Women's March: Wickenden frames its value as powerful symbolic action (13:32).
  • Cobb: Notes that symbolism is not wasted—large demonstrations reinforce solidarity and lay groundwork for substantive change:

    “The value of symbolic gestures is that they strengthen people's resolve to work for the substantive changes. And so if you can get a symbolic recognition of your cause, it makes it that much closer to actually getting the real change that you want to affect.” (14:08)

  • He remarks, “There is a great deal to be said for people recognizing that they are not alone in their sentiments, and that is the nucleus that movements can grow out of.” (15:10)

6. Obama’s Legacy and the Optimism Dilemma

• Obama on Progress Not Being Rejected: Obama, in a clip, says he believes Americans didn't reject his vision—he blames strategic backlash by GOP operatives (16:23).
  • Cobb: He’s skeptical, remarking that Obama’s optimism “has, at various points in his presidency, looked like naivete,” especially in misjudging the depth of political opposition:

    “There was a way in which it appeared that Obama's optimism about the best of America blinded him from the realities of the worst of America.” (18:50)

• Uncertainty of Obama’s Legacy: Wickenden and Cobb agree the significance of Obama’s presidency may be determined by the efficacy of post-Trump resistance movements (19:36).

7. Limits to Trump’s Power—even Within the GOP

• Cobb forecasts possible fractures within the Republican Party as Trump tests traditional political norms and as inexperience among Trump’s appointees complicates governance:

  “There’s some question about Trump saying that he would drain the swamp and then appointing all these people who appear to be compromised… These are not people who have a great deal of political experience… that may wind up becoming a source of friction, not just politically in general, but even within the Republican Party.” (20:43)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Martin Luther King Jr. (quoted by Wickenden):

  “We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and the violent actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence and indifference of the good people.” (01:33)

• Jelani Cobb:

  • “No progress is permanent.” (05:03)
  • “Movements are born in the moments when abstract principles become concrete concerns.” (06:28)
  • “Obama is a congenital optimist. In some ways, that's part of the job description… But Obama's optimism… blinded him from the realities of the worst of America.” (18:43)
  • "Symbolic gestures...strengthen people's resolve to work for the substantive changes." (14:08)
  • “There is a great deal to be said for people recognizing that they are not alone in their sentiments, and that is the nucleus that movements can grow out of.” (15:10)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:33 – Martin Luther King Jr. quote
• 03:08 – Biden’s 1968 analogy and Cobb’s response
• 05:03 – Historical perspective on the impermanence of progress
• 06:28 – Concrete threats as catalysts for protest movements
• 08:48 – Should Democrats embrace resistance?
• 12:14 – Discussion of Standing Rock protests
• 13:52 – The Women’s March and the importance of symbolism
• 16:23 – Obama’s defense of his legacy
• 18:43 – Cobb on Obama’s optimism and naivete
• 19:36 – The ambiguity of Obama’s legacy and future movements
• 20:43 – Potential fractures within the GOP and the limits of Trump’s mandate

Conclusion

This episode frames the Trump era as a renewed moment for democratic resistance, much like the late 1960s. Jelani Cobb and Dorothy Wickenden advocate for principled opposition and grassroots activism, drawing lessons from history while interrogating the limits and possibilities of symbolic protest. Their conversation offers both caution and a form of hope—emphasizing that progress is neither linear nor assured, but that collective refusals (“no”) can be transformative when moments demand them.