This Is William Cohen’s Third Impeachment

Summary

The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: This Is William Cohen’s Third Impeachment
Date: December 9, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Guests: William Cohen (former Senator, Secretary of Defense), Michael Luo (editor, newyorker.com)

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Episode Overview

This episode offers a rare political perspective from William Cohen, a former congressman and Secretary of Defense who has witnessed three presidential impeachments: Nixon, Clinton, and Trump. Through a detailed conversation with Michael Luo, Cohen reflects on the political, personal, and ethical complexities of impeachment, the transformation of the Republican Party, and what these pivotal moments say about American democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cohen’s Unique Perspective: Three Impeachments

• Cohen participated directly in two impeachments (Nixon as a congressman, Clinton as Secretary of Defense) and commented extensively on the Trump impeachment as a Republican statesman.
• His experience provides a longitudinal view of the changing political climate and the increasing polarization over impeachment.

2. The Nixon Impeachment (1974): Personal Sacrifice and Party Tension

• Cohen describes how being on the House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate era was not a privileged spot, but rather a practical, unglamorous job for a young congressman.

  "The Judiciary Committee was not a plum assignment.... After all, I was just a freshman congressman in the Longworth Building." (03:39)

• Emphasizes how quiet, bipartisan meetings—like the one organized by Tom Railsback—lay behind key decisions.

  "I was surprised to see Caldwell... Ray Thornton, conservative, from Arkansas, a Democrat." (05:50)

• The group of moderate Republicans and Democrats agreed informally to support articles of impeachment based on abuse of power and obstruction of justice.

  "We said, well, abuse of power and obstruction of justice. And we more or less informally agreed that we would support those two articles." (06:36)

• Voting for impeachment placed Cohen and others at odds with their party and constituents, resulting in intense backlash, threats, and strained political futures.

  "The party said, we'll never support you again. You've betrayed our trust. The money was drying up... it looked pretty grim for me." (10:18)

3. The Emotional Toll and Personal Calculus

• Cohen discusses how the decision was profoundly individual, and not everyone—even close colleagues—knew one another's positions.

  "Each of us had our own conscience to adhere to." (04:14)

• He recalls the historic gravity of voting on impeachment:

  "It was a sense of overwhelming gravity and responsibility... Not one of us were eager to vote for impeachment." (07:40)

• His family dealt with the pressure too, including threats and needing protection.

  "My wife was getting phone calls at home... There was a bomb threat." (09:24)

• Ultimately, Nixon’s resignation and the infamous tapes changed the outlook—and Cohen’s reelection chances.

  "Until Nixon resigned, until that tape came forward, I don't think I would have been back." (10:53)

4. Party Pressure and Moral Dilemmas

• Cohen recalls being called to the White House where Nixon tried to rally Republicans:

  "He said, 'I may be a son of a bitch, but I'm your son of a bitch.' And applause erupted. At that point, that was not my sentiment at all." (12:13)

• He notes the immense physical and psychological strain on members, including himself and others:

  "Walter Flowers developed a bleeding ulcer... I know that I came down with severe head colds... just because I was preparing over and over and over again what the evidence was." (12:57)

5. Clinton Impeachment (1998) and the Evolution of Partisanship

• As Secretary of Defense during Clinton’s impeachment, Cohen describes the drama of managing national security crises amidst hyperpartisanship.

  "We had just ordered the bombing of Saddam Hussein, and the mission was underway. And I got a call from the Republicans... saying the top is blowing off the Capitol because... there's an impeachment resolution up here even though there's a bombing campaign underway." (16:25)

• He observes that this period marked the beginning of impeachment as a political weapon.

6. The Trump Impeachment and the Transformation of the GOP

• Cohen asserts that today’s Republican Party is dominated by Trump’s influence, making independent action rare.

  "It has become the Trump Party. It's not the Republican Party, it's the Trump Party. They either act out of fear or with complicity." (15:33)

• Expresses skepticism that a 'tipping point' of bipartisan action can occur today, contrasting with Watergate.

7. Safeguards and the Rule of Law

• Cohen compares responses to Nixon and Trump regarding cabinet willingness to defy or restrain the president if necessary.

  "I don't think there's anybody there that would say that we've got to prevent the president from having access to the football." (17:31)

• Warns that abandoning the rule of law in favor of personal loyalty to the president would endanger democracy:

  "If you don't have the impeachment power, then what you're saying is we don't care about the rule of law... And this is not going to be a democracy that will be recognizable a few years from now." (18:43)

8. John McCain and Questions of Legacy

• Cohen was best man at McCain’s wedding and believes McCain would have opposed Trump’s conduct.

  "I think John McCain would be the one to say, this is not American. This is unpatriotic.... John McCain would never have tolerated that." (18:08)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tom Railsback’s Bi-Partisan Meeting:

  "Let's see what we can agree upon." (06:15)
  A reminder of a time when politicians sought common ground across the aisle.

• Nixon's Rallying Cry:

  "I may be a son of a bitch, but I'm your son of a bitch." (12:13) — Nixon, as recounted by Cohen.

• The Stakes for the Rule of Law:

  "If you don't have the impeachment power... we're giving up on the rule of law." (18:43) — William Cohen

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:20] - Opening remarks, Cohen's statement on impeachment
• [03:13] - Cohen’s recollections from the Nixon impeachment process begin
• [05:50] - Coalition of moderate Republicans and Democrats, Railsback meeting
• [07:33] - Making the decision to support impeachment
• [09:07] - Backlash from Republican Party, public threats to Cohen and family
• [12:04] - Party loyalty pressures, White House rally, Nixon anecdote
• [13:34] - Cohen’s experience during and after voting for Nixon's impeachment
• [15:33] - Contrasting the 1970s with Trump era Republican loyalty
• [16:25] - Recalling partisanship during Clinton impeachment
• [17:31] - Cabinet safeguards and loyalty in the Trump administration
• [18:08] - On what John McCain would do regarding Trump’s impeachment
• [18:43] - Cohen’s warning about the decline of rule of law in American democracy

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Conclusion

This introspective episode provides first-person history and exploration of the moral, political, and institutional strains of impeachment from the viewpoint of someone who’s repeatedly faced its gravity. Cohen’s testimony is both a warning and a call for reflection on the direction of American politics and the importance of principle over party loyalty.

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Transcript

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[David Remnick]

This is the Politics and More podcast. I'm David Remnick.

[William Cohen]

In the course of today's events, it becomes necessary for us to address, among other grievances, the President's failure to faithfully execute the law. Sadly, but with confidence and humility, with allegiance to our founders and a heart full of love for America, today I am asking our chairman to proceed with articles of impeachment.

[David Remnick]

Here we are. Remember the day today the House Judiciary Committee begins drafting articles of impeachment against President Donald Trump. Four American presidents have faced impeachment, and we're going to hear from someone who's had a bird's eye seat for, well, three of them. William Cohen was a Republican on the House Judiciary Committee in 1974 when he helped seal Richard Nixon's fate with his vote for impeachment. He suffered death threats and other attacks.

[William Cohen]

Let me say it's not a happy occasion for me or for any of us here. That must not prevent us from meeting up to our responsibilities to pass judgment upon the conduct of our elected leaders.

[David Remnick]

Then, in 1998, from inside the White House, Cohen saw the impeachment of Bill Clinton. Cohen was serving as Secretary of Defense, and he had to navigate those impeachment hearings while ordering missile strikes on Iraq.

[William Cohen]

And we are achieving good coverage of our targets, and as a result, we are advancing our goal of containing Saddam Hussein.

[David Remnick]

And finally, in 2019, as a Republican power broker in Washington, Cohen has been trying to convince his party of a very unpopular position, that Donald Trump's misdeeds are the worst of those three presidents and fully merit his impeachment. Michael Luo is the editor of newyorker.com and he's been writing about impeachment these past weeks. Here's Mike talking with William Cohen.

[Michael Luo]

I'm here.

[William Cohen]

Hey, Michael, how are you? I'm good, thank you. Hold on one second, Michael. I want to make sure my watch is shut off because if it rings, it'll interrupt it. Hold on.

[Michael Luo]

Okay. Secretary Cohen, can you take us back to what it was like in your office in early 1974? What was it like to be on the committee in those early days when the investigation just got started?

[William Cohen]

Well, the Judiciary Committee was not a plum assignment. I had a very small staff at that point. After all, I was just a freshman congressman in the Longworth Building. And the office was about two or three rooms, as I recall, so pretty intimate. But it began with the Saturday Night Massacre. And that was the first time, I think, that the committee really felt that it was going to be involved in hearings and an investigation.

[Michael Luo]

Did you talk about this with Republican colleagues in private?

[William Cohen]

No, I hadn't spoken to any of the other members personally. I felt this was so personal. Each of us had our own constituents who represent. Each of us had our own conscience to adhere to. And then I got that call from Tom Railsback when we were about to go to the public hearings to debate the issue, whether articles should be brought. And Tom said, I'm having a little meeting in my office at 8:00 in the morning. Would you care to come by for coffee and donuts or bagels, words to that effect? And I said, yeah, but who's going to be there? He said, I have no idea.

[Michael Luo]

Can you tell me about Tom Railsback for the folks who are listening who don't know who he is?

[William Cohen]

Yeah. Tom Railsback was a moderate Republican from Illinois, and he was well liked by all of the Republicans and many of the Democrats. He was just a good person to be around and had built friendships in the Congress and was quite a good athlete. And that's where I met him on a regular basis down in the gym. I used to play a lot of basketball. He played basketball. And so we would shoot hoops together or play paddleball together. And he became sort of a mentor to me. And yet I'd still never talked to him about what I was going to do or what I was thinking of.

[Michael Luo]

So Railsback calls you. This is just before the hearings begin. And he says, come by my office in the morning. And then you didn't know who was gonna be there. And what happened?

[William Cohen]

Well, I showed up and I was surprised to see Caldwell, Butler Caldwell, very conservative from Virginia. It seemed to me that he was far more supportive of the Republican position. And so I was surprised to see him. I was surprised to see Ray Thornton, conservative, from Arkansas, a Democrat. Yes.

[Michael Luo]

Four Republicans and three Democrats.

[William Cohen]

Right. And that was the so called fragile coalition. I think we were all kind of pleased to see each other, but surprised to see each other. Then I remember Walter Flower said, let's see what we can agree upon. And as a result of that discussion, we said, well, abuse of power and obstruction of justice. And we more or less informally agreed that we would support those two articles. When we went public, did you go.

[Michael Luo]

Around the room and what did you say?

[William Cohen]

Well, I just expressed my own opinion. I was pretty much over at that point. That the President, through his words and deeds, had committed impeachable offenses, suborning perjury, paying hush money to keep witnesses quiet, having enemies list and asking the IRS to start targeting those enemies. The tipping point surely came when he asked the CIA to intervene and stop the FBI investigation. All of those were clearly an abusive process and an obstruction of justice. And so I pretty much made up my mind on those issues.

[Michael Luo]

Did you feel the history, the sense of import that you had the fate of the presidency in your hands?

[William Cohen]

It was a sense of overwhelming gravity and responsibility, the graveness of it all. Not one of us were eager to vote for impeachment. Given the fact that, you know, it is the ultimate power that Congress has to reverse the last election based upon misconduct, none of us were eager to vote for that. I had voted for President Nixon. I thought he had done a tremendous job in foreign policy. Ironically enough, even after I had voted to impeach him, years later, he continued to write to me and exchange views on foreign policy. Oh, wow. And I ended up giving him a copy of a novel I had written over in Bob Dole's office. So there was nothing personal about, really was a question of the President of the United States had failed to faithfully execute the laws of The United States. He had abused his power. He had obstructed justice. This is conduct that was simply antithetical to the position of the President of the United States.

[Michael Luo]

And so at this point, you had made up your mind, and was it known publicly because you mentioned the hate mail? So at some point, it became clear that this is where you were leaning. And when was that? And I'm guessing that's when you really started to hear it from constituents.

[William Cohen]

The Republican Party had sent delegates down to meet with me in May and June. They asked me to pledge to support the president. And all I would say is, look, I'm gonna listen to the facts, and I'll apply the facts of the law. And what was that?

[Michael Luo]

Who were those people who sent them?

[William Cohen]

There were party regulars, people who were part of the Republican Party in Maine, people who had supported me. And then the mail started to come in saying they were mailing, you know, pennies and dimes and nickels, silver for my betrayal as such. And I think the polls in my own State were running 2 to 1 against impeachment or higher than that, actually. So I started getting a lot of that. I had some death threats. My wife was getting phone calls at home and things like that and got protection for a very short period of time. There was a bomb threat.

[Michael Luo]

What was the protection of your. Was that of your family?

[William Cohen]

Yes, there were threats against them and me. It was pretty intense.

[Michael Luo]

And this is pre Twitter. There was no president tweeting about you?

[William Cohen]

Oh, no. There was no Twitter at that point. And there was no Fox. You had the three networks, and you had the New York Times and Washington Post. It was a very different error. I did not expect to be returning because the party said, we'll never support you again. You've betrayed our trust. The money was drying up in terms of campaign contributions, and so it looked pretty grim for me. But I had just decided that, you know, I had to vote what I thought the evidence established, and that's what I did.

[Michael Luo]

You actually won reelection easily.

[William Cohen]

I did right after what it did. But until Nixon resigned, until that tape came forward, I don't think I would have been back. It was too difficult a challenge at that point. I also knew that as a result of that vote that my prospects in the Republican Party were going to be limited. I had angered a lot of people and in the party itself, with my colleagues. And I knew that any aspirations I might have had for holding leadership positions was finished. But in a way, it was very liberating that I wouldn't have to try to calculate how I could ingratiate myself with colleagues, that I would just be a congressman, I would just be a senator and try to do the best job. But I knew that the prospects of me ever gaining a leadership position were over. I've always been okay with that, that I don't need to be in a leadership position if it's going to cost me what I believe to be right.

[Michael Luo]

Yeah. And tell me about the hearings themselves.

[William Cohen]

Well, there were two sets of conversations going on. There were the conversations going on with the Republican members of the House Judiciary Committee. And that sentiment was, we need to rally around the president. We were called down to the White House at one point, and President Nixon was giving a rally speech in front of the Republican members from the House. And the words I remember most vividly was, he said, I may be a son of a bitch, but I'm your son of a bitch. And applause erupted. At that point, that was not my sentiment at all, but that sentiment was still there. The other Republican members were still trying to hold the line, so to speak, that we all stand together with the President. Ham Fish Sr. Brought Rabbi Korf to sit in the meeting and just stare at us as if to say, don't you dare move away from the president. And so that was difficult to break with that you want to be part of the party. Walter Flowers developed a bleeding ulcer during the course of the hearings. Tom Railsback lost his voice. I know that I came down with severe head colds and whatever just because I was getting by on two to three hours a night, just because I was preparing over and over and over again what the evidence was.

[Michael Luo]

It sounds like the most dramatic moment was when the vote happened on the first article of impeachment. What do you remember of that evening?

[William Cohen]

Well, I think I spent most of the time just trying to decide what was I going to say. When I first announced how I was going to vote, there was a public discussion. Each member had roughly 12 to 15 minutes to express his or her views. And I spent a lot of time on that speaker speech trying to tell my own state, people of Maine, why I was going to vote to impeach Richard Nixon. And so having said that, when it came time for the vote and when they called the roll, it was kind of relief. It's over. In terms of our role, we've done our job.

[Michael Luo]

Do you remember at all what you did afterwards, after the vote?

[William Cohen]

I just went home.

[Michael Luo]

Did you. Had you been talking? I'm very curious when you got home and what your wife said to you, and if you had been talking to your wife throughout this of what was going on in your head.

[William Cohen]

Well, sure, we talked about it. And she knew the pressure I was under. She didn't give me any advice. My sons, I think, had already made up their mind before I did. And then I had my dad back in Bangor one time. I was going home and I was at a place called Miller's Restaurant, and CBS was following me at that point, as I walked out of the restaurant, my dad was behind me. And one of the reporters said, what is Bill gonna do? And he said, oh, I think he's gonna find him guilty. And I walked back. I said, dad, hey, wait a minute. I haven't made any decision yet.

[Michael Luo]

It's interesting. Cause you were part of this group of seven moderate lawmakers who really were the tipping point. And when we think about tipping points today, we're mostly probably thinking about what might happen in the Senate. Do you think a tipping point could ever come.

[William Cohen]

At this point? I think not. Republicans in the Senate, in the House, they have to take into account the power of President Trump over the party. It has become the Trump Party. It's not the Republican Party, it's the Trump Party. They either act out of fear or with complicity.

[Michael Luo]

It must be so interesting to see your vantage point on how the Republican Party has changed, because you were inside the Clinton administration, Democratic administration, as Secretary of Defense, when he was impeached by the Republican Congress. And that really was, I think, the beginning of the path of weaponizing impeachment. And you can trace a path from that point to today. What was it like for you inside the Clinton administration, seeing that process?

[William Cohen]

I found that the Republicans, at that point. I'll give you. Let me back up for a second. Give you an example. We had just ordered the bombing of Saddam Hussein, and the mission was underway. And I got a call from the Republicans, Newt Gingrich and Bob Livingston, saying that the top is blowing off the Capitol because of what Clinton is doing, waging war. And I said, well, why? And they said, well, because there's an impeachment resolution up here even though there's a bombing campaign underway and we're at war. They reported out the resolution. So it. It rings a little hollow now when the President complains he's over in London while the hearings are going on. They certainly didn't accord Clinton any grace period.

[Michael Luo]

Darren Watergate, Secretary of Defense Schlesinger had wanted any emergency order coming from President Nixon be routed to him. Do you believe members of the Trump Cabinet are thinking along similar lines today.

[William Cohen]

I don't think there's anyone there now that would exercise that kind of judgment saying that the president can't be trusted. I think there were people initially who were worried about some of the things he was saying behind closed doors. I don't think that story has really been fully told yet, but I don't think there's anybody there that would say that we've got to prevent the president from having access to the football.

[Michael Luo]

Final questions, one on John McCain. You were.

[William Cohen]

I was his best man.

[Michael Luo]

Best man. Best man in his wedding. What would he do on impeachment today, do you think?

[William Cohen]

I think he would have thumbs up instead of the thumbs down when he voted to reject the attempt to take away Obamacare. I think John McCain would be the one to say, this is not American. This is unpatriotic. This is incredible. To do what we did to the Kurds and putting their lives at risk and seeing the Americans run out of town, so to speak. John McCain would never have tolerated that.

[Michael Luo]

You had said in 74, the impeachment of Richard Dixon was, in the end, a positive for the country as far as the Constitution and what it stood for.

[William Cohen]

I think it was a positive force in 1974 because to have not impeached Richard Nixon would have put us on a very dangerous course because the Justice Department has said that the president can't be indicted. The president himself has said, I can't even be investigated. So what does that mean as far as the role of Congress to oversee and make sure you check abuses? If you don't have the impeachment power, then what you're saying is we don't care about the rule of law. We don't care anymore because we like him. We like what he says and how he says it. And if they say that, then we're. Well, then we're giving up on the rule of law. And this is not going to be a democracy that will be recognizable a few years from now.

[Michael Luo]

Thank you, Secretary Cohen. This is fantastic.

[William Cohen]

Okay, well, hope I didn't exhaust you or your audience.

[Michael Luo]

Thank you.

[David Remnick]

That was former Secretary of Defense William Cohen talking with the New Yorker's Michael Luo. Cohen is retired from public office and he's the author of a number of novels. Right now, we are living through some of the most tumultuous political times our country has ever known. I'm David Remnick, and each week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, I'll try to make sense of what's happening alongside politicians and thinkers like Cory Booker, Nancy Pelosi, Liz Cheney, Tim Waltz, Ketanji Brown Jackson, Newt Gingrich, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Charlemagne, tha God, and so many more. That's all in the New Yorker Radio Hour wherever you listen to podcasts.

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[William Cohen]

From PRX.