The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: This Is William Cohen’s Third Impeachment
Date: December 9, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Guests: William Cohen (former Senator, Secretary of Defense), Michael Luo (editor, newyorker.com)

Episode Overview

This episode offers a rare political perspective from William Cohen, a former congressman and Secretary of Defense who has witnessed three presidential impeachments: Nixon, Clinton, and Trump. Through a detailed conversation with Michael Luo, Cohen reflects on the political, personal, and ethical complexities of impeachment, the transformation of the Republican Party, and what these pivotal moments say about American democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cohen’s Unique Perspective: Three Impeachments

• Cohen participated directly in two impeachments (Nixon as a congressman, Clinton as Secretary of Defense) and commented extensively on the Trump impeachment as a Republican statesman.
• His experience provides a longitudinal view of the changing political climate and the increasing polarization over impeachment.

2. The Nixon Impeachment (1974): Personal Sacrifice and Party Tension

• Cohen describes how being on the House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate era was not a privileged spot, but rather a practical, unglamorous job for a young congressman.

  "The Judiciary Committee was not a plum assignment.... After all, I was just a freshman congressman in the Longworth Building." (03:39)

• Emphasizes how quiet, bipartisan meetings—like the one organized by Tom Railsback—lay behind key decisions.

  "I was surprised to see Caldwell... Ray Thornton, conservative, from Arkansas, a Democrat." (05:50)

• The group of moderate Republicans and Democrats agreed informally to support articles of impeachment based on abuse of power and obstruction of justice.

  "We said, well, abuse of power and obstruction of justice. And we more or less informally agreed that we would support those two articles." (06:36)

• Voting for impeachment placed Cohen and others at odds with their party and constituents, resulting in intense backlash, threats, and strained political futures.

  "The party said, we'll never support you again. You've betrayed our trust. The money was drying up... it looked pretty grim for me." (10:18)

3. The Emotional Toll and Personal Calculus

• Cohen discusses how the decision was profoundly individual, and not everyone—even close colleagues—knew one another's positions.

  "Each of us had our own conscience to adhere to." (04:14)

• He recalls the historic gravity of voting on impeachment:

  "It was a sense of overwhelming gravity and responsibility... Not one of us were eager to vote for impeachment." (07:40)

• His family dealt with the pressure too, including threats and needing protection.

  "My wife was getting phone calls at home... There was a bomb threat." (09:24)

• Ultimately, Nixon’s resignation and the infamous tapes changed the outlook—and Cohen’s reelection chances.

  "Until Nixon resigned, until that tape came forward, I don't think I would have been back." (10:53)

4. Party Pressure and Moral Dilemmas

• Cohen recalls being called to the White House where Nixon tried to rally Republicans:

  "He said, 'I may be a son of a bitch, but I'm your son of a bitch.' And applause erupted. At that point, that was not my sentiment at all." (12:13)

• He notes the immense physical and psychological strain on members, including himself and others:

  "Walter Flowers developed a bleeding ulcer... I know that I came down with severe head colds... just because I was preparing over and over and over again what the evidence was." (12:57)

5. Clinton Impeachment (1998) and the Evolution of Partisanship

• As Secretary of Defense during Clinton’s impeachment, Cohen describes the drama of managing national security crises amidst hyperpartisanship.

  "We had just ordered the bombing of Saddam Hussein, and the mission was underway. And I got a call from the Republicans... saying the top is blowing off the Capitol because... there's an impeachment resolution up here even though there's a bombing campaign underway." (16:25)

• He observes that this period marked the beginning of impeachment as a political weapon.

6. The Trump Impeachment and the Transformation of the GOP

• Cohen asserts that today’s Republican Party is dominated by Trump’s influence, making independent action rare.

  "It has become the Trump Party. It's not the Republican Party, it's the Trump Party. They either act out of fear or with complicity." (15:33)

• Expresses skepticism that a 'tipping point' of bipartisan action can occur today, contrasting with Watergate.

7. Safeguards and the Rule of Law

• Cohen compares responses to Nixon and Trump regarding cabinet willingness to defy or restrain the president if necessary.

  "I don't think there's anybody there that would say that we've got to prevent the president from having access to the football." (17:31)

• Warns that abandoning the rule of law in favor of personal loyalty to the president would endanger democracy:

  "If you don't have the impeachment power, then what you're saying is we don't care about the rule of law... And this is not going to be a democracy that will be recognizable a few years from now." (18:43)

8. John McCain and Questions of Legacy

• Cohen was best man at McCain’s wedding and believes McCain would have opposed Trump’s conduct.

  "I think John McCain would be the one to say, this is not American. This is unpatriotic.... John McCain would never have tolerated that." (18:08)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tom Railsback’s Bi-Partisan Meeting:

  "Let's see what we can agree upon." (06:15)
  A reminder of a time when politicians sought common ground across the aisle.

• Nixon's Rallying Cry:

  "I may be a son of a bitch, but I'm your son of a bitch." (12:13) — Nixon, as recounted by Cohen.

• The Stakes for the Rule of Law:

  "If you don't have the impeachment power... we're giving up on the rule of law." (18:43) — William Cohen

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:20] - Opening remarks, Cohen's statement on impeachment
• [03:13] - Cohen’s recollections from the Nixon impeachment process begin
• [05:50] - Coalition of moderate Republicans and Democrats, Railsback meeting
• [07:33] - Making the decision to support impeachment
• [09:07] - Backlash from Republican Party, public threats to Cohen and family
• [12:04] - Party loyalty pressures, White House rally, Nixon anecdote
• [13:34] - Cohen’s experience during and after voting for Nixon's impeachment
• [15:33] - Contrasting the 1970s with Trump era Republican loyalty
• [16:25] - Recalling partisanship during Clinton impeachment
• [17:31] - Cabinet safeguards and loyalty in the Trump administration
• [18:08] - On what John McCain would do regarding Trump’s impeachment
• [18:43] - Cohen’s warning about the decline of rule of law in American democracy

Conclusion

This introspective episode provides first-person history and exploration of the moral, political, and institutional strains of impeachment from the viewpoint of someone who’s repeatedly faced its gravity. Cohen’s testimony is both a warning and a call for reflection on the direction of American politics and the importance of principle over party loyalty.