Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: Trump International
Date: March 10, 2017
Host: Dorothy Wickenden (Executive Editor, The New Yorker)
Guest: Adam Davidson (Staff Writer, The New Yorker; Co-founder, NPR's Planet Money)
Episode Overview
This episode dives into the nature of Donald Trump’s international business ventures with a focus on the Trump Tower deal in Baku, Azerbaijan. Host Dorothy Wickenden and investigative journalist Adam Davidson explore the potential violations of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA), the Trump Organization’s questionable business practices abroad, and the deeper implications for business and governance under Trump. The conversation reveals what the Baku deal tells us about Trump’s approach to risk, due diligence, and law, with a special highlight on new reporting linking the deal to Iran's Revolutionary Guard.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Trump’s Approach to Conflicts of Interest
- Trump's Attitude: Trump boasts immunity from conflicts of interest due to holding the presidency.
"I have a no conflict situation because I'm president, which is... a nice thing to have, but I don't want to take advantage of something."
(Donald Trump, 01:44)
2. The Baku, Azerbaijan Deal and Its Red Flags
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Adam Davidson’s Investigation: Focused on Trump’s partnership with Zia Mammadov, the powerful, notoriously corrupt former transportation minister of Azerbaijan.
- Hundreds of billions in oil wealth flowed into Azerbaijan post-USSR, much of which was handled by Mammadov, whose infrastructure projects were “the most expensive to build” worldwide.
- Trump’s deal was with shell companies allegedly controlled by Mammadov’s family and associates, a setup consistent with corruption hiding mechanisms.
"Nobody's pretending they're not corrupt... it's blatant."
(Adam Davidson, 03:19) -
Why Focus on Baku: Of many questionable Trump deals, Baku stood out as “the one that makes no sense” for any business that did real risk management or due diligence.
"This will reveal a lot about how that organization worked."
(Adam Davidson, 04:29) -
Deal Withdrawal: Trump Organization abruptly pulled out of the Baku deal (and two similar deals in Georgia and Brazil) as reporting intensified, claiming “house cleaning” rather than scrutiny.
"The three deals they killed were coincidentally the three deals I had identified as the most controversial."
(Adam Davidson, 05:41)
3. The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA): Application & Trump's Views
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FCPA Overview:
- Prohibits American firms from participating in foreign bribery schemes in exchange for business.
- Enforcement dramatically increased post-9/11; now seen as a corporate compliance standard.
"To me, it’s something for us to be very proud of—that the US has really led a global effort against corruption and bribery."
(Adam Davidson, 06:23) -
Trump’s Resistance: Trump criticized the law as unnecessary and unreasonably intrusive.
"It's a horrible law… We're like the world's policemen. It's ridiculous."
(Dorothy Wickenden quoting Trump, 07:41) -
Trump Organization’s Legal Rationale:
- Chief legal officer Alan Garten argued that licensing deals (collecting money but not paying it out) couldn’t violate the FCPA—a view not supported by any other legal experts.
“We didn't own it. We had no equity. We didn't control the project... Therefore it could not be a violation.”
(Alan Garten, paraphrased by Adam Davidson, 09:18)- Davidson: "Literally nobody else... agrees with him. That is a dangerous... insularity." (09:37)
4. The Inner Workings of the Trump Organization
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Culture of Insularity: Decision-making was highly centralized, dominated by family, with little regard for legal norms or external standards.
"They define norms for themselves and they believe those norms apply generally."
(Adam Davidson, 09:57) -
“Family Business” Model: Trump’s business resembles a 19th-century family enterprise rather than a modern, institutionalized corporation—eschewing systems and risk management for gut decisions.
"The Trump Organization in so many ways feels like a throwback to the 19th century... This case is such a model of why you don’t want that kind of system in a global business concern."
(Adam Davidson, 15:00)
5. Financial Ties to Iran’s Revolutionary Guard
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Investigative Breakthrough: Davidson uncovered evidence that the Mammadov family's business partners were fronts for Iran’s Revolutionary Guard—the Trump Organization had this information since 2015 but continued with the project.
“We quickly were able to establish fairly solidly that these Darvishee brothers were not just veterans of the Revolutionary Guard... they were active fronts.”
(Adam Davidson, 12:23) -
National Security Risks: The Revolutionary Guard is sanctioned for involvement in drug trafficking, money laundering, and sponsoring terrorism; the Trump administration was seeking to designate it a terrorist entity, raising grave questions about business entanglements.
"It seems at least very possible that Trump directly received money that was originated with the Revolutionary Guard."
(Adam Davidson, 13:56)
6. Motivations & Risk Tolerance
- Possible Motivations:
- Decision-making based on “gut feel and passion” rather than due diligence.
- Organization’s need for cash may have spurred risky deals.
"It's possible that... they just needed $2.5 million, and it was worth taking on dramatic long-term risk."
(Adam Davidson, 14:36)
7. Prospects of Prosecution
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Obstacles:
- The complexity of building a criminal case, requiring cooperation from Azerbaijan and possibly Iran.
- DOJ leadership (Jeff Sessions at the time) unlikely to pursue such a politically charged investigation.
"You can't prosecute with my article... you'd need to do a lot of work."
(Adam Davidson, 16:52)
"The decision to prosecute is made by what they call main justice... controlled by Jeff Sessions, the Attorney General."
(Adam Davidson, 17:30) -
Possibility with Special Counsel: Davidson notes an independent prosecutor could bring scrutiny to the deal.
"I do think there's at least a chance that once there's an independent prosecutor... this will become part of what they look into."
(Adam Davidson, 17:51)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
Trump’s Brazen Attitude Toward Conflicts (01:44):
“I have a no conflict situation because I’m president... but I don’t want to take advantage of something.” — Donald Trump -
Davidson on Baku Corruption (03:19):
"This isn't a subtle thing, it's blatant." -
On the Culture of the Trump Organization (09:57):
“There is this insularity... they define norms for themselves and... believe those norms apply generally.” -
On Legal Denial (09:37):
“We don't have a system in which companies or individuals get to make up their own interpretation of a law and live according to it.” -
On the Revolutionary Guard Link (12:23):
“We quickly were able to establish... these Darvishee brothers were not just veterans... they were active fronts for the Revolutionary Guard.” -
National Security Stakes (13:56):
“It seems at least very possible that Trump directly received money that was originated with the Revolutionary Guard.” -
On the 19th-Century Business Model (15:00):
“The Trump Organization... feels like a throwback to the 19th century... every key decision has to be made by someone whose last name is Trump.”
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 01:44 — Trump’s press conference quote on conflicts of interest
- 02:47 – 04:29 — Background on Azerbaijan and Mammadov
- 05:27 – 06:23 — Trump Organization's withdrawal from Baku, FCPA explanation
- 07:41 — Trump's views on the FCPA
- 09:18 – 10:29 — Alan Garten’s legal rationale, Trump Organization’s insularity
- 11:14 – 13:56 — Discovery of ties to Iran's Revolutionary Guard
- 14:10 – 14:50 — Possible motives for risky business decisions
- 15:00 – 16:44 — How Trump’s business model compares to modern corporate norms
- 16:44 – 18:12 — Barriers to prosecution and the role of the DOJ
Conclusion
This episode presents a meticulously reported account of Trump’s riskiest international deal and the broader corporate culture that enabled it. Adam Davidson’s findings underscore a pattern of disregard for anti-corruption norms, a willingness to do business with highly suspect partners, and a potentially dangerous blending of business and political interests on the world stage. The episode is an essential listen for those concerned with global corruption, presidential ethics, and governance.