The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Trump, Putin, Kim Jong Un, and the Perils of the New Nuclear Proliferation

Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Eric Schlosser
Date: May 18, 2018

Overview

In this episode, Dorothy Wickenden, Executive Editor at The New Yorker, speaks with Eric Schlosser, journalist and author of Command and Control, about the evolving dangers of nuclear proliferation in a world where deterrence doctrine is shifting and leaders such as Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, and Kim Jong Un are reshaping nuclear politics. The discussion revisits the history of nuclear weapons, evaluates current risks, examines public amnesia, and explores prospects for abolition in a new, multi-polar nuclear age.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Nuclear Fears: Past and Present

• The legacy of nuclear anxieties, from Kennedy’s famous “Sword of Damocles” speech to today’s growing nuclear risks ([01:16]–[02:19]).
• The Trump administration’s approval of a $1 trillion, 30-year plan to expand and modernize the U.S. nuclear arsenal.
• Expert consensus that the risk of nuclear conflict may be greater now than at any time since the Cold War.

Leadership and Contradictions

• Kennedy’s Secret Meetings:
  At the same time as calling for abolishing nuclear weapons at the UN in 1961, Kennedy privately discussed the possibility of a surprise nuclear strike on the Soviet Union ([03:05]):

  “What nobody knew is that the same week he was calling for the abolition of nuclear weapons at the United Nations, he was secretly meeting... to discuss the possibility of a surprise nuclear attack on the Soviet Union.” — Eric Schlosser [03:05]

• The psychological burden leaders shouldered—the “slenderest of threads” between peace and annihilation ([03:39]–[04:47]).

Cuban Missile Crisis & Tactical Nuclear Weapons

• Cuban Missile Crisis Lessons: The U.S. was unaware that Soviet troops in Cuba had “tactical” nuclear weapons and authority to use them without Moscow’s direct approval ([05:00]).
• Explains the new push in the Trump era for a new class of low-yield tactical nuclear arms—risking renewed miscalculations.

Doctrine: From MAD to “Tailored Deterrence”

• Euphemisms and Jargon:
  Nuclear language, such as “deterrence,” obscures horrific realities. Its logic is inherently suicidal ([06:46]):

  “If you attack me, I’m going to kill as many of your civilians as I possibly can. And so attacking me will be suicidal.” — Eric Schlosser [06:46]

• The Concept of “Megadeath”:
  The chilling reality hidden behind abstract terms. One "megadeath" equals one million deaths ([08:41]).
• New Strategies:
  “Tailored deterrence”—the concept that nuclear weapons might be used in varying escalatory ways, e.g., Russia’s “escalate to de-escalate” doctrine ([09:23]–[10:47]):

  “Once the first nuclear detonation occurs on the battlefield, nobody has any idea what will happen next.” — Eric Schlosser [10:47]

Multipolar Nuclear World & Shorter Fuses

• More nuclear states: the “bipolar” U.S.–Soviet standoff has given way to nine nuclear nations, with India and Pakistan locked in especially dangerous proximity ([11:10]).
• Missile flight times between India and Pakistan are merely 7-9 minutes—leaving terrifyingly little margin for error ([11:10]):

  “There’s enormous pressure to be the first one to use your weapons or lose them all. And there’s very little time to think about if it’s a false alarm or not.” — Eric Schlosser [11:10]

• Nuclear war between these countries could trigger a “nuclear winter” with a billion casualties and global climatic catastrophe ([11:10]).

Public Amnesia and Apathy

• In the 1980s, nuclear fear was ever-present in culture and politics, but the end of the Cold War bred dangerous complacency ([12:42]):

  “There’s a remarkable amount of historical amnesia and very little attention given to the subject.” — Eric Schlosser [12:55]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On euphemisms:

  “There are all these terms and all this jargon around nuclear weapons that hides what they’re really for and what they really do.” — Eric Schlosser [06:46]

• On Cold War leaders:

  “You had the leader of the Soviet Union, Nikita Khrushchev, and you had President of the United States, John F. Kennedy, desperate to avoid a nuclear war... And they almost got one anyway.” — Eric Schlosser [05:00]

• On new nuclear doctrines:

  “It’s a very 21st century term. It sounds very artisanal. Tailored deterrence means that you can use nuclear weapons theoretically in varying levels of engagement.” — Eric Schlosser [09:30]

• On public amnesia:

  “Right now in the United States, half the population... either was not born or were small children when the Soviet Union collapsed. So there’s no awareness of this risk.” — Eric Schlosser [12:55]

• Survivors’ testimony (Setsuko Thurlow, Hiroshima):

  “Each person had a name. Each person was loved by someone. Let us ensure that their deaths were not in vain.” — Setsuko Thurlow [15:41]

Nuclear Abolition Movement: History and Hope

• The antinuclear movement began almost as soon as nuclear weapons existed; the UN’s first act in 1946 was to call for abolition ([16:31]).
• The 1982 anti-nuclear demonstration in Central Park was one of the largest in U.S. history, galvanized by writing such as Jonathan Schell’s The Fate of the Earth ([16:31]).
• Ronald Reagan’s shift from hawk to abolitionist was influenced by anti-nuke activism and the TV movie “The Day After” ([17:41]):

  “He left office completely committed to abolishing nuclear weapons.” — Eric Schlosser [17:41]

• There is renewed youth activism today, drawing on the success of anti-landmine and chemical weapon treaties ([17:41]).

Prospects & Dangers Ahead

• The Trump-Putin Era:
  Both leaders argue—dangerously—that nuclear weapons make the world more peaceful. Putin’s warning:

  “Why do we need a world if Russia ceases to exist?” [19:30]

• Despite these threats, most of the world’s nations don’t possess nukes—nine nuclear states versus about 191 non-nuclear ones ([19:30]).
• 90% of all nuclear weapons are held by the U.S. and Russia, giving their relationship outsized importance. Disarmament by these two could set a crucial example ([20:38]).

Summit Diplomacy: Trump and Kim Jong Un

• On prospects for success in U.S.–North Korea negotiations ([21:01]):

  “I would love for that high level summit to lead to North Korea getting rid of its nuclear weapons, but I’m not optimistic about it. ...I think that he [Trump] is being completely outmaneuvered by an adversary that is looking long-range, has thought about this for a long time, and is not acting impulsively.” — Eric Schlosser [21:01]

Conclusion

This episode underscores the perilous paradox of nuclear weapons: their catastrophic power is both downplayed by language and revived by new global tensions and doctrines. Schlosser stresses that nuclear catastrophe is not inevitable, but public engagement, pressure, and a renewal of abolitionist activism are urgently needed—as vital to humanity’s future as action on climate change.

Notable Segments & Timestamps:

• Kennedy’s sword of Damocles speech – [01:45]
• The logic and horror of deterrence – [06:46]
• India–Pakistan missile risk – [11:10]
• The “megadeath” concept – [08:41]
• Setsuko Thurlow’s Hiroshima testimony – [15:41]
• Reagan’s nuclear conversion – [17:41]
• Schlosser on diplomacy with North Korea – [21:01]

Tone:
Analytical, urgent, historically aware, determined not to leave listeners in despair—highlighting both the dangers and grounds for hope, and calling for renewed public consciousness and activism.