Podcast Summary: "Trumpism and Conservatives' Identity Crisis"
The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: September 12, 2019
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Ben Wallace-Wells
Overview
This episode explores the deepening rift within American conservatism in the age of Trump, focusing on the intellectual and cultural divide as exemplified by the debate between David French (a traditionalist Never Trumper) and Sohrab Amari (a pro-Trump social conservative). Through this lens, The New Yorker’s Dorothy Wickenden and staff writer Ben Wallace-Wells examine the evolving identity of the Republican Party, the angst among movement conservatives, and visions for the post-Trump political future.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The French-Amari Debate and Its Symbolism
- Drag Queen Story Hour as “Cultural Crisis”:
The episode opens with Amari criticizing French for not labeling drag queen story hour events at libraries a significant cultural threat. French replies with a defense of pluralism and constitutional freedoms:“I do not recognize Drag Queen Story Hour as a cultural crisis of great import in the United States of America. ... It is a byproduct of a free nation.”
— David French (02:34) - This exchange is framed as emblematic of deeper, existential arguments about the future and soul of conservatism.
2. Who is David French?
- Background: Constitutional lawyer, Iraq war veteran, evangelical, and leading Never Trump intellectual.
- Role in 2016: French was courted as a potential anti-Trump third-party candidate, representing conservative ideals like racial reconciliation and pluralism.
“[French] became the embodiment of the conservative intellectual establishment that would never get on board with the president.”
— Ben Wallace-Wells (04:15) - French has personally faced attacks for his multiracial family, highlighting the cultural divides around race within the right.
3. The Impact and Limits of Never Trump Conservatism
- Wickenden points to Republicans like Senator Ben Sasse who have capitulated to Trump, illustrating Trump’s dominance in the party, despite anti-Trump intellectual circles.
-
“I just continue to be astonished by Trump's near total takeover of the Republican party.”
— Dorothy Wickenden (07:14) - Wallace-Wells notes the old coalition of “fusionism”—social and economic conservatism—has fractured, leaving establishment Republicans bewildered.
4. The Rise of Social Conservative Populism
- Sohrab Amari’s Transformation:
Iranian immigrant, recent Catholic convert, and now advocate for aggressive social conservatism. - Amari’s faction believes social conservatives have been betrayed by the party’s libertarian economic wing and seeks a more reactionary, combative posture.
“What Amari represents is the faction of social conservatives who feel like they and the voters who... have not gotten anything like their fair share out of that union.”
— Ben Wallace-Wells (09:35)
5. Generational and Intellectual Tensions
- Amari claims a generational conservative split, though Wallace-Wells is skeptical of the scale, suggesting it’s more about an energized intellectual minority than masses of young voters.
“There is a significant cadre of young conservative intellectuals like him... who looked at Romneyism and Ryanism... and said, this isn't working.”
— Ben Wallace-Wells (11:50)
6. The New Faces of Conservative Populism – Josh Hawley
- Missouri Senator Josh Hawley is identified as a torchbearer for this new conservative style: elite credentials, yet critical of big tech and cultural “cosmopolitanism.”
“His major policy initiative has been to go after Silicon Valley and rhetorically to suggest that what the Republican Party needs to do is kind of break itself off from the billionaires...”
— Ben Wallace-Wells (14:00) - Hawley’s approach signals a willingness for government intervention at odds with long-standing economic libertarianism.
7. Cultural Fears Amid Political Power
- Amari views cultural liberalism (depicted in diverse urban America) as ascendant and threatening, even as the courts and state governments move right.
- French counters that conservative power is ascendant—judicial appointments, anti-abortion laws—but the sense of loss comes from cultural, not electoral, trends.
“Though Fox News and though Donald Trump have built their politics and their audience... on a sense of cultural persecution, it's also true that they have been able to use that sense of marginalization to win an incredible accumulation of power.”
— Ben Wallace-Wells (16:31)
8. Visions for Post-Trump Conservatism
- Both French and Amari focus on shaping conservatism after Trump, with contrasting visions:
- French: Limited government, pluralism, defending minority rights.
- Amari: Cultural emergency, assertive government intervention to uphold traditional values.
“Whether it can still be, you know, as David French would like, a kind of ideology that is deferential... or whether it becomes something like Soramari would prefer, that is more attentive to the possibility of cultural emergency and uses a more forceful form of government...”
— Ben Wallace-Wells (18:20)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- French’s Defense of Pluralism:
“It is a byproduct of a free nation. These are choices people make in a free nation.” (02:34) - Wickenden on the Party’s Rightward Shift:
“In some ways, it feels as though French has already lost the battle.” (07:35) - Wallace-Wells on Fusionism:
“For decades... what the Republican Party has mostly cared about is returning money to the wealthy.” (09:25) - Ben Wallace-Wells on Culture vs. Power:
“This is a conservative era in politics... conservatives have not lost clout in this country.” (16:31) - Outlook on Trump 2020 and Beyond:
“I don’t think either of them has a great deal of hope that they can influence what form Trumpism takes... what the fight is about is what form conservatism will take in the future.” (18:01)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- French vs. Amari – Cultural Crisis? (02:34)
- Profile of David French (03:41)
- Trump's Takeover of the GOP / Fusionism’s Decline (07:14 – 08:42)
- Sohrab Amari’s Background / Conversion (10:25)
- Young Conservatives and Generational Rifts (11:38)
- Senator Josh Hawley as New Conservative Model (13:20 – 14:40)
- Conservative Angst: Culture vs. Political Power (15:21 – 16:31)
- The Debate over Post-Trump Conservatism (18:01 – 19:22)
Tone & Style
The discussion is thoughtful, analytic, and measured, with a mix of intellectual curiosity and cautious concern for the party’s future. Wickenden and Wallace-Wells engage in respectful, nuanced debate, capturing the earnest, often cerebral tone of The New Yorker’s political coverage.
For listeners and readers, this episode provides a rich portrait of the soul-searching and fracture within the conservative movement—a debate playing out not just in policy but in the very language and outlook of America’s right.