Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Trump’s Enablers, Part 2: How Mike Pompeo’s Loyalty to the President Has Affected Diplomacy in Ukraine
Date: October 3, 2019
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: Susan B. Glasser, Staff Writer at The New Yorker

Episode Overview

This episode investigates Secretary of State Mike Pompeo’s involvement in the Ukraine scandal, focusing on how his steadfast loyalty to President Trump has shaped U.S. diplomacy. Host Dorothy Wickenden and writer Susan B. Glasser discuss Pompeo’s role on the infamous July 2019 Trump-Zelensky call, his evolution from Trump critic to close ally, and how his choices have contributed to a dual-track foreign policy—one serving the country’s interests, and another serving the president’s personal political agenda. The episode also draws parallels to historical scandals and scrutinizes Pompeo’s relationships with other administration figures amid the unfolding impeachment inquiry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pompeo’s Direct Role in the Ukraine Call ([01:16]–[03:14])

• Mike Pompeo was confirmed to have listened in on President Trump’s July 25 call with Ukrainian President Zelensky, during which Trump pressed for investigations into Joe Biden.
• Pompeo initially evaded questions about his involvement and later publicly defended U.S. policy in Ukraine, emphasizing consistency and anti-corruption efforts.
  • Quote (Pompeo):
    "I know precisely what the American policy is with respect to Ukraine. It's been remarkably consistent... It's what the State Department officials that I had the privilege to lead have been engaged in, and it's what we will continue to do even while all this noise is going on." ([02:27])

2. Pompeo’s Loyalty to Trump – A Transformative Journey ([03:29]–[05:44])

• Pompeo was originally a Trump skeptic, warning in 2016 that Trump would be an authoritarian president.
• Appointed CIA Director with little personal connection to Trump, his transition to a "slavishly loyal" member of the administration surprised many in Washington.
  • Quote (Glasser):
    "To see him emerge as the most slavishly loyal Trump soldier has been one of the more remarkable and in some ways undercovered stories of this administration." ([04:23])

3. Navigating Trump: Pompeo’s Tactics ([05:44]–[06:59])

• Pompeo is adept at aligning himself with Trump, often waiting out meetings to match the president’s opinions and avoiding direct disagreement.
• Contrasted with former officials like Rex Tillerson and Jim Mattis, who were more willing to openly oppose Trump.

4. The Shadow Foreign Policy & Internal Rivalries ([06:59]–[08:59])

• Rudy Giuliani acted as a freelance envoy—outside formal government channels—heavily influencing Ukraine policy.
• Pompeo reportedly resented Giuliani’s interference but did not act to rein him in.
• He also had a strategic relationship with Bill Barr, having included him in a secret advisory group at CIA.
  • Quote (Glasser):
    "[Pompeo] was not very happy at the notion that Rudy Giuliani was running essentially a second, shadow foreign policy at the personal behest of the president." ([07:38])

5. Trump’s “Deep State” Theories & 2016 Fixation ([08:59]–[10:36])

• The Trump administration’s pursuit of investigation into 2016 election origins (CrowdStrike theory) is rooted in conspiracy and has become central to the Ukraine pressure campaign.
• Glasser notes that Pompeo does not originate these theories but is expected to facilitate or at least tolerate the president’s agenda.
  • Quote (Glasser):
    "Like all of those who serve Trump, they are forced to carry out the agenda, whether they agree with it or not." ([10:36])

6. Pompeo and Conspiracy Theories Legacy ([11:56]–[13:57])

• Pompeo originally drew attention as a hardline congressional interrogator during the Benghazi investigation, leaning into conspiracy theories about Hillary Clinton.
• There’s an irony in how the current Ukraine controversy mirrors the tactics and issues Pompeo once decried.
  • Quote (Wickenden):
    "It's one of those incredible ironies... essentially, in the last few days, you've had this sort of weird echo of Benghazi, except with Mike Pompeo on the other side." ([12:47])

7. The Fate of State Department and Diplomats ([13:57]–[15:56])

• The episode raises critical questions about Pompeo’s management of the State Department and the ouster of the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine at Giuliani's and Trump’s behest.
• Focus on Kurt Volker, the special envoy who testified the day of recording, and his struggles navigating the crosscurrents of Trump’s Ukraine policy.
  • Glasser reports Volker tried to help Ukrainians manage the pressure from Giuliani and Trump, rather than enable it.

8. Two Foreign Policies? The Disconnect ([17:06]–[18:22])

• Discussion of how Trump’s personal ambitions and official U.S. foreign policy often diverge—particularly on Russia and Ukraine.
• Pompeo continues to claim the administration is marked by "realism, restraint, and respect," but actual events often contradict this narrative.

9. Impeachment Pressure and Global Impact ([18:22]–[20:20])

• The Trump administration’s handling of Ukraine unsettles allies and is pulling foreign leaders into U.S. domestic controversies.
• The bizarre Oval Office meeting with Finland’s president highlighted growing international discomfort with the Trump administration.

10. Parallels with Watergate and Legal Jeopardy ([20:20]–[21:53])

• Glasser points out the difficulty in nailing down specific offenses or legal vulnerabilities, but frames the Ukraine scandal as fundamentally an "abuse of power."
  • Quote (Glasser):
    "...it's, in effect, an abuse of power scandal, that Trump is, in a variety of different ways, seen to be abusing the power of his office for fundamentally personal political ends." ([21:02])
• Potential for resignations or legal consequences exists, but the real-time nature of the scandal adds uncertainty.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mike Pompeo (on Trump-Zelensky call):
  "It's what the State Department officials that I had the privilege to lead have been engaged in, and it's what we will continue to do even while all this noise is going on." ([02:27])

• Susan B. Glasser (on Pompeo's transformation):
  “To see him emerge as the most slavishly loyal Trump soldier has been one of the more remarkable and in some ways undercovered stories of this administration.” ([04:23])

• Dorothy Wickenden (on Benghazi-Ukraine parallels):
  "...you've had this sort of weird echo of Benghazi, except with Mike Pompeo on the other side." ([12:47])

• Susan B. Glasser (on the nature of the scandal):
  "...it's, in effect, an abuse of power scandal, that Trump is, in a variety of different ways, seen to be abusing the power of his office for fundamentally personal political ends." ([21:02])

• On the international optics:
  "There’s the question of if you’re another world leader, you used to really want an Oval Office meeting and a photo op. I can’t imagine that there are a lot... who are eager to come and visit Trump... Except for the kind of authoritarians and dictators..." ([19:33])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:16] Pompeo confirmed as participant on Trump-Zelensky call
• [02:27] Pompeo's public justification of U.S. Ukraine policy
• [05:44] Inside White House dynamics: Pompeo’s methods of staying in favor
• [07:38] How Pompeo views Giuliani's role and relationship with Barr
• [10:36] Pompeo’s relationship to Trump’s conspiracy theories
• [12:47] Benghazi vs. Ukraine: the irony of Pompeo’s position
• [15:01] Kurt Volker’s testimony and State Department struggles
• [17:06] Trump's dual foreign policy tracks
• [19:33] The global perception of Trump’s presidency
• [21:02] Abuse of power as the core mechanism in the scandal

Tone & Style

• The conversation is analytical, pointed, and somewhat incredulous, with a sense of urgency and gravity surrounding the implications for U.S. diplomacy and governance.
• Both speakers remain focused on facts, historical context, and the evolving nature of the scandal, often referencing parallels to past controversies.

This summary provides a comprehensive guide for listeners seeking to understand Mike Pompeo’s role in the Ukraine scandal, the nature of Trump’s “shadow foreign policy,” and how both may figure into broader investigations of executive power and accountability.