Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Trump’s Latest Indictment Is Also About the Future of the Country
Date: June 10, 2023
Host: Evan Osnos
Panelists: Susan B. Glasser, Jane Mayer

Overview

This episode examines the unprecedented federal indictment of former President Donald Trump concerning his handling of classified documents after his presidency. The hosts discuss the legal, political, and historical ramifications of the charges, the Republican Party’s reaction, and what it means for the rule of law and the future of American democracy. They also analyze the context surrounding Trump's behavior and the potential impact on the 2024 presidential race.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Incriminating Tape and the Feeling of Impunity

• CNN released a transcript of a tape in which Trump is heard discussing classified documents, explicitly acknowledging their sensitive nature.
  • "[Trump] says, oh, no, wait, okay, this is secret. This is classified. And then he also says, as president, I could have declassified, but now I can't." – Susan Glasser (01:30)
  • "He says that now I can't." – Jane Mayer (01:51)
  • "The best part is where he says this is secret information. Look, look, look at this." – Susan Glasser (01:53)
  • "That's what they call the quiet part out loud, I think." – Evan Osnos (02:03)
• Trump’s apparent casualness is interpreted as him behaving with a sense of impunity—believing he is above the rules.
  • "It's such a casual thing for him to do. Why not show classified documents to Mark Meadows researchers if you never get caught?" – Susan Glasser (02:28)

2. Unprecedented Nature of the Indictment

• The hosts stress the historic aspect: "We now have a president who's been charged with a federal crime for the first time." – Evan Osnos (03:55)
• Unlike Nixon or Clinton, who left public life after their scandals, Trump refuses to step aside.
  • "The difference, what so feels unprecedented here to me is we have in Trump someone who says, this is bull, and I'm running anyway…The law doesn't matter. That's the difference." – Jane Mayer (04:33)
• There are seven felony counts involving the Espionage Act and obstruction of justice; serious charges that carry real prison time.
  • “…these allegations…carry with them the real possibility of prison time. And yet you have a situation where the politics…He has an entire political party basically saying, how dare they do it?" – Susan Glasser (05:27-06:59)

3. Political Dynamics: The Republican Party's Response

• Trump's denial, the rallying of Republicans behind him, and the weaponization of disinformation are cited as ongoing threats to democratic accountability.
  • "It's not just whether this one particularly troublesome man goes to jail. It's whether an entire political party is going to go along with the lies and disinformation." – Susan Glasser (07:00)
• Despite a majority voting against Trump, the crisis persists: a political party's failure to repudiate lies.

4. The Seriousness of the Charges vs. “Boxes Hoax”

• The difference between the Manhattan hush money case and the federal charges is sharply defined; this new case is about national security, not paperwork.
  • "This is a case actually of a federal prosecutor on a matter of national secrets about obstruction of justice." – Evan Osnos (08:00)
• The phrase "boxes hoax" is critiqued as a rhetorical tool by Trump, but the panel underscores the grave nature of the content.
  • "What really matters is the content here. And that elevates it from being about violating some kind of records act to hurting national security under the espionage act of 1917." – Jane Mayer (09:22)
• Specifics are discussed: roughly 13,000 documents, over 300 classified, including sensitive details about foreign nuclear issues and missile programs.

5. Motive, Obstruction, and Legal Strategy

• Motive remains unclear. Was it showing off? Leverage? Or something deeper? Usually, espionage cases involve clear motives, making this more unusual.
  • "Usually when you have an Espionage act violation, you have a motive, you have a spy, you have a leak, you have some sort of reason." – Jane Mayer (14:22)
• Trump’s defense is discussed: likely to claim lack of intention or to minimize the significance of the documents.
• Importance of state of mind (mens rea) in criminal prosecution is emphasized, with suspicion around deliberate concealment of documents.

6. The Role of the Special Counsel and DOJ

• Jack Smith, the special counsel, is profiled as an aggressive, experienced prosecutor.
  • "With Jack Smith, you've got a prosecutor's prosecutor...He's known, at least according to defense lawyers on the other side, as incredibly aggressive." – Jane Mayer (18:14)
  • Anecdote of Smith turning a “loser of a case” into a conviction (19:30).
• The DOJ, under cautious Attorney General Merrick Garland, is intentionally keeping its distance from political appearances.
  • "There has been a disciplined approach on the part of the White House. Every time this question comes up…Joe Biden doesn't talk about it." – Evan Osnos (22:30)

7. Political Fallout and Ramifications for 2024

• Republicans, even critics like Mike Pence, largely avoid condemning Trump, defaulting instead to talking points about DOJ “politicization.”
  • "Even the critics of Donald Trump are so afraid of saying the obvious, which is, well, if he’s proven to have done it…then he should go to jail just like anyone else. And they won’t and they don’t say that." – Susan Glasser (31:30)
• Chris Christie and Asa Hutchinson are identified as rare exceptions, but their candidacies are marginal at best.
  • “Once again, Trump is sucking the oxygen out of the room. Whether good or bad, everybody is talking about Donald Trump and it makes it very hard for the other candidates.” – Jane Mayer (29:25)
• The election calendar and court schedules present unprecedented logistical and legal challenges.
  • "You could have him on trial, you could have him convicted in the middle of the election season. We're in a situation without a political script here." – Susan Glasser (35:04)

8. What’s at Stake for U.S. Democracy

• The fundamental question is whether the rule of law can prevail or if Trump’s impunity will prevail.
  • "What’s scary to me is if he can get through this, then there’s really nothing holding him back in the future. And that…is a test of our legal system. It’s a test of…the rule of law, democracy, all of these huge things that are the features of our system.” – Jane Mayer (36:26)
• The global implications for American credibility are discussed:
  • "What would that actually do to the reputation and credibility of American democracy?...Think of the message we would send to the rest of the world by not indicting a former president." – Evan Osnos (37:20)
  • "We need to, as reporters, keep our eye not just on what’s unprecedented about the prosecution, but rather what’s unprecedented about the behavior that caused this prosecution." – Jane Mayer (38:08)

Notable Quotes and Moments

• Susan Glasser:
  • “He has an entire political party of enablers, and he’s using this to spread a particularly pernicious form of lies and disinformation.” (06:10)
  • “He denied everything without even being specific about what it is he’s denying.” (15:05)
• Jane Mayer:
  • “Once again, Trump is sucking the oxygen out of the room…makes it very hard for the other candidates.” (29:25)
  • “If he can get through this, then there’s really nothing holding him back in the future.” (36:36)
• Evan Osnos:
  • “This is actually a historic moment. We now have a president who's been charged with a federal crime for the first time.” (03:55)
  • "Think of the message we would send...by not indicting a former president." (37:20)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:16] – Breaking news: Trump’s tape reveals self-incrimination
• [03:55] – Historical precedent: first former president indicted federally
• [06:00-07:52] – Republican Party’s reaction and the crisis of political accountability
• [08:00-11:00] – Distinction between Manhattan and federal cases; contents and scale of sensitive documents
• [12:15-15:05] – Legal defense tactics and the question of motive
• [15:42-18:02] – Trump’s narrative, conspiracy theories, and the power of information
• [18:05-21:03] – The role and character of Jack Smith, special counsel
• [21:34-24:46] – DOJ’s cautious approach, Biden administration, and the politics of charging Trump
• [28:00-33:35] – Political implications: effect on GOP field, Pence, Christie, and the “Trump effect”
• [35:04-38:08] – General election ramifications, unprecedented territory, and the test for American democracy

Conclusion

The episode delivers a sobering, detailed analysis of the Trump indictment’s legal substance, its reverberations through politics and the Republican Party, and its implications for American democracy. The discussion highlights the nation’s entry into uncharted territory, where the outcome will affect not just the former President, but the very idea of rule of law and the future legitimacy of democracy in the United States.