Podcast Summary: Trump’s “Meddlesome Priest”

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Date: June 9, 2017
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: David Grann

Overview

This episode of The Political Scene centers on the dramatic firing of FBI Director James Comey by President Donald Trump and Comey's subsequent Senate testimony. Host Dorothy Wickenden and New Yorker staff writer David Grann analyze the implications of these events within the storied and controversial history of the FBI. The conversation delves into the persistent tension between the Bureau's need for independence and the inherent political pressures it faces, touching on historic abuses, the nature of institutional norms, and the path forward for America's premier law enforcement agency.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Comey’s Testimony and Its Implications

[01:16 - 03:11]

• Comey delivered a forceful rebuke of Trump's public remarks about the FBI, calling out the president for "lies, plain and simple."
  Quote (Comey, 01:59):

  "Those were lies, plain and simple. And I am so sorry that the FBI workforce had to hear them. And I'm so sorry that the American people were told them."

• Grann highlights the deep concern about the politicization of the FBI, noting that Trump’s private request to end the Flynn investigation crossed a crucial line. Quote (Grann, 03:11):

  “The most striking element is the tension...to have this kind of national police force remain independent...This is a threat to these norms of having a very professionalized, independent law enforcement agency like the Bureau.”

2. The FBI’s Historical Tensions Between Fact-Finding and Politics

[04:04 - 05:43]

• The Bureau has always walked a fine line between being an impartial investigator and being a political tool, especially under J. Edgar Hoover.
• Both the Clinton email investigation and Comey’s actions leading up to the 2016 election are seen as examples where institutional norms about non-interference were potentially breached. Quote (Grann, 04:21):

  "The Bureau has had a very checkered history...One that was a dogged fact finding investigative body, and then a body that also...was politicized and violated civil liberties.”

• Discussion about norms against publicizing investigations near elections to avoid influencing the outcome.

3. Comey’s “Leak” and Concerns About DOJ Independence

[05:43 - 07:17]

• Comey’s decision to leak his Trump memo stemmed from his fear that the Department of Justice, led by Jeff Sessions, lacked the independence to properly investigate. Quote (Grann, 06:07):

  "That gesture can be interpreted two ways. On one level, it shows his savviness...It also shows his lack of faith that the Justice Department would be able to conduct an independent investigation."

4. Historical Parallels: The FBI’s Roots and J. Edgar Hoover

[08:27 - 12:50]

• Grann discusses the early 20th-century origins of the FBI, using his book Killers of the Flower Moon to illustrate the Bureau’s role in major criminal cases and early scandals.
• J. Edgar Hoover’s rise, initial reforms, and eventual abuses are examined; Hoover’s nearly five-decade tenure as director led to immense (and sometimes unchecked) power.
  Quote (Grann, 11:45):

  "It gave him an almost tyrannical power in many ways because he controlled this very powerful law enforcement body. He collected information in his files about various presidents so that he became immune to oversight…"

• Many checks and norms surrounding the FBI today were developed in direct response to Hoover's abuse of power.

5. Comey’s Awareness of Historical Dangers

[12:50 - 14:03]

• Comey himself referenced Hoover's legacy in his testimony, anxious to avoid any appearance of using investigative information as leverage over a sitting president. Quote (Comey, 13:09):

  "I was very much about being in kind of a J. Edgar Hoover type situation. I didn't want him thinking that I was briefing him on this to sort of hang it over him in some way."

• Grann elaborates on Hoover’s notorious secret files—full of dirt and blackmail on politicians—which made presidents wary and ensured Hoover’s job security.

6. Norms, “Infection,” and Institutional Safeguards

[14:03 - 16:00]

• Grann notes Comey’s use of “infection” as a metaphor for political compromise within the FBI; both attribute institutional health to the maintenance of explicit and implicit norms. Quote (Grann, 14:15):

  "In many ways, the good things he does and the mistakes he does are kind of of the same piece, a kind of desire to keep this infection out."

• The discussion turns to recent breaches of these norms, such as Bill Clinton's unwise tarmac meeting with Attorney General Loretta Lynch and Trump’s private conversations with Comey—moments that erode the integrity of institutions even without breaking the law directly.

7. The “Meddlesome Priest” Reference and Technocratic Tensions

[16:00 - 17:53]

• Comey’s Henry II analogy (“Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?”) suggests he viewed Trump’s words as an implicit order.
• Grann reflects on the tradition of technocratic independence, along with its risks of detachment from democratic oversight. Quote (Grann, 16:34):

  "Those were part of the early efforts to reform the bureau...But...one of its failings as a movement was it also sometimes led the technocrats to think that they...were somehow above it."

8. Prospects for the FBI: Christopher Wray’s Nomination

[17:53 - 18:33]

• Trump’s nomination of Christopher Wray, a non-political figure with a law enforcement background, is viewed by Grann as a positive signal—at least compared to possible overtly political nominees.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Lies and Institutional Damage:
  James Comey (01:59):

  “Those were lies, plain and simple. And I am so sorry that the FBI workforce had to hear them.”

• On the Bureau’s Duality:
  David Grann (04:21):

  "The Bureau has had a very checkered history...a dogged fact finding investigative body...and...a body that also, at various stages...was politicized."

• On Hoover’s Power:
  David Grann (11:45):

  "...He collected information...about various presidents so that he became immune to oversight..."

• On Norms vs. Laws:
  David Grann (15:12):

  "Because they're norms and not always laws, it's easy to take them for granted."

• On “Meddlesome Priest”:
  Dorothy Wickenden (16:24):

  "Comey said that he understood it as A directive. And he quoted Henry II, will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?"

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:16] — Show intro and recap of recent events (Comey firing/testimony)
• [01:59] — Comey’s testimony, rebuke of Trump
• [03:11] — Grann on politicization and threats to Bureau independence
• [04:21] — Historical context on FBI’s dual nature
• [05:43] — Comey’s leaking of memos and concerns about Justice Department integrity
• [08:44] — Grann on his book, the Osage murders, and early FBI scandals
• [11:45] — The Hoover era and presidential oversight issues
• [13:09] — Comey’s reference to Hoover in his decision not to use information as leverage
• [14:03] — Norms as protective mechanisms (infection metaphor)
• [16:00] — “Meddlesome priest” analogy, implications for Trump’s directive
• [17:53] — Christopher Wray’s nomination as FBI Director

Tone and Style

The conversation is analytical, reflective, and grounded in historical context. Both speakers bring deep institutional knowledge and a sober concern for the preservation of democratic norms and independent law enforcement. The tone is thoughtful and measured, even as they address the gravity of the ongoing political crisis.

Conclusion

This episode presents a compelling exploration of the collision between politics and law enforcement at the highest levels, viewed through the ongoing Trump-Comey saga and the deep, sometimes troubling, history of the FBI. It underscores the fragility of institutional norms and the essential role of vigilance and oversight in maintaining democratic government.