Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode Title: Trump's War Room
Date: February 24, 2017
Host: Dorothy Wickenden
Guest: George Packer (New Yorker staff writer)

Episode Overview

This episode of The Political Scene delves into the tumult and uncertainty surrounding Donald Trump's early foreign policy, the internal dynamics of his administration, and the prospects for order under his newly-appointed National Security Advisor, H.R. McMaster. Host Dorothy Wickenden and guest George Packer discuss the lack of a cohesive strategy in Trump’s approach to international relations, the significance of McMaster’s appointment, and whether Trump’s advisers can mitigate the effects of his impulsive leadership style.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Trump’s Chaotic Approach to Foreign Policy

• Lack of Unified Strategy
  • George Packer: “It doesn't seem to be unified by any coherent ideas or strategy. It's unified by a kind of a mood of orneriness and sort of fitful lashing out, which is Trump's style and an indifference to the long term consequences of short term impulses.” [02:49]
• America First as a Pronouncement, Not a Policy
  • Packer explains that 'America First' serves more as a slogan than an actionable strategy, with little regard for consistency or diplomatic norms.

2. Tension and Conflicting Messages

• Contradictory Statements on Major Issues
  • Trump’s comments about expanding the nuclear arsenal and wavering on the two-state solution in Israel conflict with statements from his own cabinet, most notably James Mattis, Secretary of Defense. [03:40]
  • Trump has dismissed NATO as “disposable and transactional,” while Mattis reassures European allies of its importance. [04:00]
  • The administration’s stance towards Muslims is described as suspicion and exclusion—“he has essentially told the world's Muslims that they're all under suspicion and we don't really want them in our country”—while McMaster’s outlook is more nuanced and respectful due to his experience abroad.

3. H.R. McMaster: Background and Prospects

• Role of the National Security Advisor
  • Wickenden and Packer outline the pivotal, often president-defining role of the National Security Advisor, explaining models set by predecessors like Kissinger (power-brokering) and Scowcroft (honest broker). [05:12]
• McMaster’s Strengths and Gaps
  • McMaster is praised as a brilliant field commander—most famous for his success in Tal Afar, Iraq (a pattern-setting counterinsurgency operation)—yet lacks Washington experience and has never functioned at such a high interagency level. [05:12]
• Key Quote:
  • Packer: “Being a good leader, being thoughtful, being able to listen, all of those things will be great benefits... But the way I just outlined it, his military experience doesn't really prepare him for this... He does not know Washington.” [06:39]

4. McMaster’s Views vs. Trump’s Policies

• View on Muslim Ban
  • McMaster, according to a friend cited by Packer, sees the ban on Muslim immigrants as "heinous and self-defeating." His experience in Iraq taught him the vital importance of respect and partnership with locals for successful counterinsurgency. [07:51]
  • Packer: “He trained his troops in the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. You better respect the Iraqis, or you are going to find that they're going to become your enemy.” [08:33]
• Emphasis on Listening
  • McMaster’s approach contrasts starkly with the Trump White House; he has pledged to “come in with your ears open. You can't come in and start talking.” [11:28]

5. Internal Power Dynamics and the Bannon Factor

• Challenges from Steve Bannon
  • Trump has enabled a “shadow National Security Council under Steve Bannon,” posing a challenge for McMaster’s authority and the traditional order. [07:51]
• Restructuring the National Security Council (NSC)
  • McMaster reversed changes that sidelined the Chairman of Joint Chiefs and the Director of National Intelligence, bringing them back into the principal policy discussions. However, Bannon’s influence remains a persistent issue. [14:28]
  • Packer: “If I know McMaster, he's a pretty shrewd reader of the landscape... and I'm sure that's where he sees his biggest battle—inside the White House.” [14:40]

6. Presidential Attitudes and Military Leadership

• Trump’s Respect for the Military
  • Trump appears to be impressed by generals, but may not fully grasp the importance of “fearlessly honest” military advice.
  • Packer: “Trump seems to have a sense that generals are just impressive, you know, that they're all, you know, Pattons in the making. He doesn't seem to have an understanding that part of the code of a really good military officer is to be fearlessly honest.” [15:56]

7. Congressional Oversight and Accountability

• Role of Congress Limited in Foreign Affairs
  • Even with supporters like John McCain and Lindsey Graham, Congress’s checks on presidential foreign policy are weak compared to its oversight of domestic policy.
  • Packer: “So the Senate, you know, other than the individual voices of a few senators, doesn't have a lot to say about foreign policy... the president has a pretty free hand on this stuff. Unless there's scandal. Unless it's something like the Russia affair.” [17:17]
• Emerging Scandals
  • The discussion closes noting the brewing Russia investigation and Michael Flynn’s resignation. Packer notes the danger to McMaster if he gets caught up in a similar scandal.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Foreign Policy:
  • George Packer: “America first is not a strategy, it's just a, it's a pronouncement. And it seems as if for the time being, that's, that's enough for Trump.” [02:49]
• On McMaster’s Leadership Style:
  • George Packer: “This is a guy who does not hold back what he thinks. He stood up to Rumsfeld during the Iraq war.” [12:26]
• On Washington Power Struggles:
  • George Packer: “He has not been able or maybe even hasn’t tried to defang Bannon and his shadow counsel. And that’s where...he sees his biggest battle. Inside the White House.” [14:40]
• On the Limits of Congressional Action:
  • George Packer: “What if they did a hearing on that? Well, that might turn up some serious misdoings or at least a level of chaos that's intolerable. But the president has a pretty free hand on this stuff. Unless there's scandal.” [17:17]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:01:16 — Start of episode/content; context and introduction to the Mexico-US diplomatic situation
• 00:02:49 — Packer discusses the lack of strategy in Trump’s foreign policy
• 00:04:00 — Examples of foreign policy contradictions (nuclear arsenal, NATO, Muslim ban)
• 00:05:12 — Role and significance of the National Security Advisor; McMaster’s background
• 00:07:51 — Discussion of Steve Bannon’s influence and McMaster’s approach to counterinsurgency and the Muslim ban
• 00:11:28 — Wickenden and Packer on McMaster’s listening/leadership style
• 00:12:26 — Story of McMaster standing up to Donald Rumsfeld
• 00:14:28 — McMaster’s moves to restore traditional NSC structure
• 00:15:35 — Trump’s view of military officers, Bannon’s ideological influence
• 00:16:56 — Congressional oversight and accountability questions
• 00:18:26 — Closing discussion: Russia scandal and Flynn’s resignation

Conclusion

This episode provides an incisive look into the early Trump administration’s foreign policy confusion, the pivotal role of General H.R. McMaster as National Security Advisor, and the enormous challenges facing anyone seeking to inject stability into Trump’s war room. George Packer draws from years of reporting experience to illuminate McMaster’s character and the fraught power struggles inside the White House, making for a timely and essential conversation.