The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: We’re Living in a World Created by the Iraq War
Date: March 18, 2023
Host: Evan Osnos
Guests: Jane Mayer, Susan Glasser

Overview

Marking the twentieth anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq, this episode explores the deep and lingering legacy of the Iraq War on American politics, society, global perception, and the personal lives of those who covered it. Evan Osnos, Jane Mayer, and Susan Glasser reflect on their firsthand experiences, analyze the profound changes wrought by the war, and discuss the lessons—both learned and unlearned—that continue to shape U.S. foreign policy and domestic trust in institutions.

Key Discussion Points

The Personal Stakes: Where Were You When It Started?

• [01:16–06:54]
  • Osnos opens by noting the war’s “profound and in many ways overlooked effects” on everything from Trump’s rise to distrust in experts.
  • Susan Glasser recalls “the death of innocence” and her early reporting from Kuwait, sharing a surreal breakfast where a Vietnam veteran spells "quagmire" to foreshadow what was to come. She notes, “the Iraq war was many things, but it also was sort of a death of innocence and a sort of naiveté that...the US Government can't possibly be this wrong.” (02:15)
  • Evan Osnos recounts embedding with Marines, sharing a raw moment of a young Marine remarking, “I guess you can litter in war,” revealing the unplanned chaos of the conflict. (04:05)
  • Jane Mayer describes the “rah rah” spirit in pre-war Washington and the certainty at the top of the Washington Post that Iraqis would welcome Americans, contrasting it with the tragic death of journalist Michael Kelly. (05:30)

Crushing Expectations: Disconnect Between DC and Reality

• [06:54–10:20]
  • Glasser explains the failed expectation of Iraqi celebrations, recounting how “children [were] stoning the military vehicles, crowds of anxious, unhappy people screaming...for water and electricity.” (08:06)
  • Osnos recalls the Marines arriving in Baghdad: “from now on, we're going to be like policemen,” highlighting how ill-prepared the military was for nation-building. (09:18)
  • Jane Mayer references Colin Powell’s infamous warning: “The Pottery Barn theory. You break it, you own it.” (10:20)

The Torture Regime & American Values

• [10:30–12:37]
  • Mayer discusses how Vice President Cheney and others “pushed the American government outside the law, outside of international law, outside of the Constitution, and instituted a basically medieval torture regime...” She describes the lasting damage to America’s image from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. (10:59)
  • Osnos notes the immediate, irreversible blow to U.S. credibility among Iraqis after the release of the Abu Ghraib photos.

The Human Cost & Iraq's Struggles

• [12:37–15:23]
  • Mayer cites Brown University’s estimate: between 275,000 and 306,000 Iraqi deaths, and nearly 1 million deaths from the broader “war on terror.” (12:37)
  • Glasser describes Iraq as a “very tenuous emerging democracy," forced to cope with Iranian influence, ISIS’s rise, and ongoing instability: “it hasn't returned to a Saddam style dictatorship...its legacy has been here in the US as well as in the Middle East.” (13:29)
  • Mayer adds, “This is not a success story...it has cast a huge shadow that we're still living in in terms of foreign policy and in terms of trust in our government.” (15:23)

Shattered Trust: The Establishment and Iraq’s WMDs

• [15:45–20:31]
  • Osnos explores how the propaganda campaign about weapons of mass destruction (WMDs), led by the administration and echoed by the media, destroyed public faith in the establishment. He recalls:

    “There is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.” (17:01)

  • Glasser describes the lack of proper process—no definitive security meeting or decision point—just “stumbled into” war, underpinning a syndrome of skepticism that affected even the U.S. warning about Russia invading Ukraine in 2022: "You better make sure that you have both the personnel around you who are willing to say tough things to you..." (18:39)
  • Mayer notes that “the Biden administration took a step that hadn’t been taken before” by releasing intelligence more transparently before the Ukraine war. (20:06)
  • The group reflects on “confirmation bias” and the dangers it poses to intelligence, government, and journalism.

Societal Fallout: Who Bears the Burden, Who Benefits?

• [21:13–24:13]
  • Osnos recounts the total disconnect between those in power and those at risk:

    “There was only one senator whose child was enlisted in the military. ... This will be the first war the US has fought in almost a century and a half with a tax cut and without a military draft.” (21:17)

  • He discusses West Virginia as an example: communities that disproportionately send people to war and return to fewer opportunities, resulting in resentment and higher rates of participation in events like January 6th: “one in five of the people arrested at the Capitol...had been military veterans in the post-9/11 wars.” (23:32)
  • Glasser and Osnos link these grievances to the rise in populist discontent and political dysfunction, highlighting “the twin shocks” of the failed war and the 2008 financial crisis, which “revealed a certain hollowness at the core of the American superpower.” (25:16)

The War’s Political Legacy: The GOP and Foreign Policy

• [27:41–33:43]
  • Jane Mayer details the GOP’s growing split between hawks (like Mitch McConnell) and a powerful isolationist wing led by Donald Trump and echoed by Ron DeSantis. The latter’s position— that Ukraine is a “territorial dispute”—shows how far the party has moved. (28:13–33:42)

    “[Trump] called the U.S. involvement in the war in Iraq a ‘big fat mistake.’ ... It was the end of Jeb Bush.” (29:57)

  • Susan Glasser contextualizes: “There would be no Donald Trump had there not been an Iraq war...” and links Obama’s rise to his anti-war stance.

    “Trump was possibly for the war before he was against it...But he actually was speaking out for years.” (30:34)
    “It’s a really long road...from going to war [in Iraq]...to saying we shouldn’t go to the defense of a struggling democracy whose neighbor is literally attacking them.” (32:47)

Lessons and Lingering Uncertainty

• [33:43–35:00]
  • Osnos asks Mayer if Washington has changed. She replies:

    “I think we're still living with the effects of it in so many ways. It's been the source of sort of alienation...a distrust of the intelligence community, but also distrust of the press...particularly when it comes to seeing a sort of war fever which is sweeping Washington at any particular point.” (34:16)

  • Glasser concurs: “Hear, hear.” (35:00)

Notable Quotes

• “The Iraq war was many things, but it also was sort of a death of innocence and a sort of naivete that I think I—and many people—had about, you know, that the US Government can't possibly be this wrong.”
  — Susan Glasser (02:15)

• “He spells out quagmire. And I was like, Ed, you're gonna get us in big trouble...And the truth is...I didn't really see it.”
  — Susan Glasser on Ed Gargan's Vietnam-era skepticism (02:45)

• “They were absolutely certain, absolutely certain this was the right thing to do at the top of the Washington Post.”
  — Jane Mayer (05:30)

• “From now on, we're going to be like policemen.”
  — Evan Osnos on the Marines’ overnight mission shift in Baghdad (09:18)

• “They pushed the American government outside the law...and instituted a basically medieval torture regime in order to try to interrogate them. And it was shameful.”
  — Jane Mayer (10:59)

• “You better make sure that you have both the personnel around you who are willing to say tough things to you, who are willing to make tough choices, who are willing to fight it out.”
  — Susan Glasser (18:39)

• “There was only one senator whose child was enlisted in the military...This will be the first war the US has fought...with a tax cut and without a military draft.”
  — Mark Shields, quoted by Evan Osnos (21:17)

• “There would be no Donald Trump had there not been an Iraq war and a George W. Bush. I think that Trump...used the failures of George W. Bush and his own party's establishment as...the origin myth of his own political Persona.”
  — Susan Glasser (30:34)

Selected Timestamps of Key Segments

• 01:16 — Reflections on 20 years since the invasion
• 02:15 — Glasser recalls the war's onset in Kuwait and her changed perceptions
• 05:30 — Mayer on DC’s certainty and journalist Michael Kelly’s death
• 06:54 — Glasser on immediate unmet expectations in Iraq
• 09:18 — Marines' mission pivots to policing in Baghdad
• 10:59 — Mayer on how torture became official policy
• 12:37 — Civilian casualties and the war’s scale
• 15:23 — The long shadow of failure cast on US policy
• 17:01 — Recitation of the WMD justification script
• 21:17 — The disconnect between policymakers and military service
• 23:32 — War’s impact on places like West Virginia and the link to January 6th
• 25:16 — Iraq, the 2008 financial crisis, and the rise of inward-facing populism
• 28:13 — Division within the GOP and the foreign policy backlash
• 30:34 — The war’s legacy in modern presidential politics
• 34:16 — The need for skepticism and reflection in journalism

Conclusion

This episode delivers a sweeping, deeply personal, and analytical look at how the Iraq war recast American politics and society, eroded trust in government and media, and set the table for everything from Obama’s presidency to Trump-era populism and changing Republican foreign policy orthodoxy. The episode ends with a call for journalists—and the public—to maintain deep skepticism when confronted with the fever for war.