Podcast Summary:

The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: What It Takes to Be White House Chief of Staff
Date: July 7, 2023
Host & Panel: Evan Osnos, Jane Mayer, Susan Glasser

Main Theme

This episode unpacks the essential, behind-the-scenes role of the White House Chief of Staff—often dubbed the "second most powerful job in Washington." The hosts examine the unique pressures of the job, profile legendary chiefs like Jim Baker, and discuss the recent transition from Ron Klain to Jeffrey Zients in the Biden administration. Drawing from history, they analyze what makes an effective chief of staff, the consequences when the job is mishandled, and the implications of Biden’s choice for the role as he heads toward reelection.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Grind and Turnover of the Job

[03:30] Jane Mayer:

• Ron Klain’s departure as Biden’s Chief of Staff is unsurprising due to the job’s immense pressures and his own exhaustion.
• Klain stayed through notable legislative victories and a strong midterm for Democrats, leaving on a high note.
• "It is a job that really wears you out. And he in some ways had hoped that maybe he would get out even earlier."
• The average tenure is about 18 months—Klain’s was somewhat longer.

2. Klain’s Legacy: Power and Political Fusion

[05:03] Susan Glasser:

• Klain unified political strategy and legislative management, a rare and powerful combination in the modern White House.
• His micromanagement made him a central figure, the “indispensable man.”
• The transition to Jeffrey Zients signals a shift—Zients is a technocrat lauded for managerial skills rather than political instincts.

Quote [06:52] Susan Glasser:
"Klain had his hand in everything and everyone looked to him. That's why he was an extraordinarily powerful chief of staff."

3. Can the Job Be Split? Historical Lessons from Jim Baker

[08:12] Susan Glasser:

• Jim Baker's "laws of power":
  1. Real Estate: Proximity to the President (corner office) equates to power.
  2. Paper: Control of information flow to the President.
  3. Personnel: Authority to hire key staff ensures loyalty and control.
• Baker’s ability to blend power, politics, and policy set the gold standard.
• Memorable anecdote [10:42]: Baker outmaneuvered Ed Meese for real decision-making authority, even if Meese got the flashier title.

4. The Role as Presidential Protector

[11:29] Jane Mayer:

• Baker’s skill was in guarding the Oval Office from dangerous influences—a role his successor Donald Regan failed at, leading to the Iran-Contra scandal.
• Chiefs of staff "are supposed to have this passion for anonymity," but when ego takes over (as with Regan), dysfunction follows.

Quote [14:08] Susan Glasser (on Baker and power):
"The problem is with some chiefs of staff, they think they're more chief than staff."

5. Historical Parallels: Dysfunction Is Not New

[16:27] Susan Glasser:

• White House chaos, infighting, and scandal predate Trump.
• Reagan’s presidency, often mythologized, was rife with internal intrigue—a crucible that made Baker’s competence even more impressive.

6. The Chief of Staff and First Ladies’ Influence

[14:29] Jane Mayer:

• Nancy Reagan played a decisive behind-the-scenes personnel role, highlighting the importance (and sometimes opacity) of spouse influence.
• In Biden's White House, Jill Biden is "the keeper of the faith," and her views are central to personnel decisions.

[17:35] Evan Osnos:
"Jill Biden is one of the people who is the keeper of the faith. And she remembers when people are loyal and not loyal."

7. Trump’s Chiefs: Enablers and Facilitators

[19:37] Evan Osnos:

• Trump’s chiefs of staff were a "tragic, comic parade," marked by short tenures and dysfunction.
• Mark Meadows in particular allowed Trump unchecked freedom, culminating in complicity with the January 6 events.

Quote [19:57] Jane Mayer:
"Mark Meadows, the last chief of staff, becomes the chief who lets the president do whatever he wants instead of trying to protect him from himself... They basically stage an attempted coup to overthrow the 2020 election, and Mark Meadows goes right along with it."

8. The Uncomfortable Job of Telling the President “No”

[22:38] Jane Mayer:

• A key role is to "tell the President what he doesn't want to hear," something almost all of Trump's chiefs failed to do.
• Chiefs' gatherings emphasized this: confidence and independence are essential.

Quote [23:16] Evan Osnos quoting Baker:
"You have to be a shit detector. You have to be willing to prevent the President from getting into trouble."

9. Biden’s Choice of Zients: Technocrat vs. Political Operator

[24:58] Evan Osnos:

• Biden may overestimate his own political instincts, often surrounding himself with long-trusted aides.
• By picking Zients (a "Mr. Fix-it" known for managerial acumen and wealth), Biden gambles that efficiency and government performance will trump pure political prowess.
• Zients’ wealth could translate into a rare degree of independence, possibly making him more willing to offer tough counsel.

[26:01] Jane Mayer:

• The risk: there’s rarely a true divide between policy and politics in D.C., and managing both is key to success.

10. The Coming Test: 2024 and the Stakes

[27:03] Susan Glasser:

• Biden’s reelection bid, age, and a restive Democratic coalition make the chief’s portfolio even more critical.
• Zients must not only manage paper but principles—meaning, manage Biden himself.

Quote [30:26] Susan Glasser:
"It's not managing a paper flow, which is clearly something that Jeff Zients is expert at, it's managing the principles. And Joe Biden is not necessarily the easiest principle to manage. And that's his client and his customer and his portfolio all wrapped up in one."

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• [06:52] Susan Glasser:
  "Klain had his hand in everything and everyone looked to him. That's why he was an extraordinarily powerful chief of staff."
• [14:08] Susan Glasser (on Baker and power):
  "The problem is with some chiefs of staff, they think they're more chief than staff."
• [19:57] Jane Mayer (on Mark Meadows):
  "Mark Meadows, the last chief of staff, becomes the chief who lets the president do whatever he wants instead of trying to protect him from himself..."
• [23:16] Evan Osnos quoting Baker:
  "You have to be a shit detector. You have to be willing to prevent the President from getting into trouble."
• [30:26] Susan Glasser (on Zients’ challenge):
  "It's not managing a paper flow, which is clearly something that Jeff Zients is expert at, it's managing the principles. And Joe Biden is not necessarily the easiest principle to manage..."
• [30:47] Evan Osnos (on the job's toll):
  "I think the old joke is that if you come in at 6 foot 4, you leave 5 foot 9."

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:38] — The role and challenges of the chief of staff introduced
• [03:30] — Reflecting on Ron Klain's tenure
• [05:06] — Transition to Zients and the risk of bifurcating the job
• [08:12] — Jim Baker’s power strategies
• [11:29] — How the chief of staff protects the president
• [14:29] — Behind-the-scenes influence of First Ladies
• [19:37] — The Trump-era revolving door and enabling culture
• [22:38] — The necessity of delivering hard truths
• [24:58] — Why Biden chose Zients and what it means
• [29:32] — Managing presidential temperament
• [30:19] — Advice for Zients; the real challenge ahead

Final Insights

• The job of White House Chief of Staff is an unparalleled mix of power, stress, and responsibility—equal parts politics, management, and gatekeeping.
• History shows the dangers of a chief who is either too weak, too self-important, or not brutally honest with the president.
• Biden’s shift from political operator (Klain) to technocrat (Zients) could redefine the last phase of his presidency and shape his reelection campaign—testing whether government efficiency or political acumen best equips a president for the battles ahead.

This summary captures the full breadth and insights of the discussion for listeners seeking an in-depth understanding of the White House Chief of Staff’s stakes and evolving role.