Podcast Summary

Podcast: The Political Scene | The New Yorker
Episode: What Would an Effective, Humane Border Policy Look Like?
Date: June 28, 2019
Host: Dorothy Wickenden, Executive Editor, The New Yorker
Guest: Sarah Stillman, Staff Writer, The New Yorker; Director, Global Migration Program, Columbia University

Episode Overview

In this urgent and sobering episode, Dorothy Wickenden discusses with Sarah Stillman the current humanitarian crisis at the U.S.-Mexico border. Using recent news, data, and lived stories, they probe the legacy of U.S. border policy, the failures and abuses revealed at detention facilities, and what a truly humane, effective border policy might require. The episode centers on how the legal framework of asylum is struggling to protect today’s migrants, and it critiques the longstanding American approach of deterrence through hardship. The conversation highlights the ongoing consequences of broken policies—and offers insight into how politicians and the public can better respond.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Crisis at the Southern Border (01:17–03:21)

• Recent Outrage:

  • A Border Patrol station in Clint, Texas, intended for 100 adults, housed 350 children (at times up to 700), leading to overcrowding, unsanitary, and dire conditions.
  • Lawyers discovered ongoing family separations, with some children separated well beyond the legal 72-hour limit and many experiencing neglect (“dirty and hungry, with many covered in lice or suffering from the flu”; 01:17).
  • Public anger peaked with a widely shared photo of a father and toddler daughter who drowned trying to cross the Rio Grande.

• Political Response:

  • During the Democratic debates, Kamala Harris outlined what she would do differently (02:33):

    "I will immediately, by executive action, reinstate DACA status and DACA protection to those young people... release children from cages... get rid of the private detention centers..." — Kamala Harris (02:33)

2. How Family Separations Continue (03:35–05:19)

• Post-Executive Order Realities:
  • Despite Trump’s executive order ostensibly ending family separations, they persist in less systematic ways:

    "They're a lot less systematic and streamlined... it's happening essentially one by one on a case by case basis." — Sarah Stillman (03:53)

  • Stillman recounts a harrowing example:
    • A five-year-old, Helen, separated from her grandmother (primary caretaker) after fleeing Honduras; Border Patrol separated them and “essentially lost her in the system” (03:53).

3. The Flores Settlement and Legal Oversight (05:19–06:28)

• Flores Settlement:
  • Allows lawyers and medical professionals to inspect detention conditions, which “should not be allowed to be held in situations that are not safe or sanitary” (05:32).
  • Stillman details how lawyers broke protocol due to the egregious abuse they witnessed:

    "I think we can all agree that kids being held in squalor in massively overcrowded cells... that's not safe or sanitary." — Sarah Stillman (05:32)

4. The Failures of Government Response (06:28–09:06)

• Aftermath and Legislative Struggles:
  • Despite exposure, some children returned to troubled facilities.
  • House/Senate divided over stipulations on a $4.6 billion aid bill (08:03): should aid be conditional on improved child protections, or simply a lump sum?
    • Ultimately, the less conditional Senate version passed, to the disappointment of more progressive Democrats.

5. Historical Context: Obama vs. Trump (09:06–10:42)

• Continuity and Escalation:

  • Family separations weren’t “systematic” under Obama but did happen in rare cases.
  • Obama-era abuses: Children held in frigid, overcrowded “icebox” facilities; viral images and mass deportations.

    "We were much more terrified when we were in the hands of the government." (Paraphrased recollection from a Guatemalan boy, 2014–2015; 09:33)

• Key Quote:

  "It's also important to recognize how contiguous this is with the longstanding American policy of trying to make things incredibly, incredibly difficult for asylum seekers." — Sarah Stillman (10:55)

6. “Prevention Through Deterrence”: The Policy of Hardship (10:55–12:07)

• Origins and Flaws:
  • Policy began in the 1990s (Clinton era): Make crossings so lethal and difficult that people are deterred.
  • Stillman argues this no longer works, as migrants are often fleeing for their lives and will risk everything, even knowing the dangers.

7. Criminalizing Migrants and Its Consequences (12:07–12:56)

• Trump's Rhetoric:
  • Trump's narrative blurs all migrants with criminals, influencing policy and public perception.
    • Example: The drowned Salvadoran father/daughter sought asylum legally but were blocked from presenting at a port of entry, forcing a deadly alternative.

    "That's not an uncommon story at all. It's just this time we saw the picture already." — Sarah Stillman (12:56)

8. Election Politics and Policy Proposals (12:56–14:28)

• Democratic Candidates:
  • Most favor paths to citizenship and more quota slots; criticized for progressive stances amid a polarized electorate.
  • Wickenden and Stillman discuss public safety framing versus more radical ideas like decriminalizing border crossings.

    "If communities are made to feel so incredibly terrified... they're not going to be able to come forward to law enforcement when they witness a crime..." — Sarah Stillman (13:30)

9. Consequences of Deportation (15:14–16:42)

• Life and Death Stakes:
  • Stillman and her team have documented hundreds of cases where rejected migrants are killed, assaulted, or kidnapped after deportation.
  • Moving personal story:

    "Her last words to Border patrol were, when I'm found dead by my violent husband... my blood will be on your hands. And that's exactly what happened to her." — Sarah Stillman (15:33)

10. Legal Definition of Asylum and Contemporary Realities (16:42–18:16)

• Outdated Criteria:
  • Post-WWII asylum law focuses on political and religious persecution; today, many are fleeing gang violence or economic devastation, which do not always fit current protections.
  • “Climate refugees” and many Central American migrants are left outside this framework.

    “Those were norms... that feel less well suited for this moment... many... fleeing serious gang violence... who certainly are fleeing for their lives.” — Sarah Stillman (17:43)

11. What Would Humane Policy Look Like? (18:16–20:07)

• Sarah Stillman’s Recommendations:

  1. End Profit Incentives:
     • Remove private detention companies; “Taxpayers don’t need to be paying for these folks to be detained.”
  2. Provide Legal Support:
     • Evidence shows 98% of families appear in court when they have legal representation.
     • End the practice of children representing themselves in immigration court:

       "We've actually had judges argue that it's perfectly reasonable for a three year old to represent themselves in immigration court." — Sarah Stillman (19:28)

  • Core message: Focus first on preventing egregious abuse, stop criminalizing asylum seekers, invest in oversight, and close legal and humanitarian gaps.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Kamala Harris on Humane Policy (02:33):
  “I will release children from cages. I will get rid of the private detention centers.”

• Guatemalan Boy on Detention (09:33):
  “It felt better in the hands of our kidnappers than it felt when we were in the cold cells by Border Patrol being fed frozen sandwiches.”

• On Criminalization (10:55):
  “It’s... contiguous with the longstanding American policy of trying to make things incredibly... difficult for asylum seekers.” — Stillman

• On Outdated Asylum Law (17:43):
  “Those were norms... that feel less well suited for this moment.”

• On Court Representation for Children (19:28):
  “We have kids as young as three or four years old who are expected to show up in immigration court to represent themselves by themselves.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Topic/Highlight | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 01:17 | Introduction; Crisis at Clint, TX, facility | | 02:33 | Kamala Harris: Debate quote on humane border policy | | 03:53 | Stillman: Family separations post-EO, Helen’s story | | 05:32 | Flores settlement; conditions oversight | | 07:43 | Congressional battles over humanitarian aid | | 09:33 | Obama-era policies; chilling detention testimony | | 10:55 | Prevention through deterrence; criminalization | | 12:56 | 2020 candidate stances and electoral challenges | | 15:33 | Deadly consequences of deportation | | 16:47 | Defining asylum; inapplicability to current migrants | | 18:34 | Stillman’s advice: humane policy recommendations | | 19:28 | On children representing themselves in court |

Conclusion

This episode lays bare the continuity and escalation of inhumane border policies across administrations, the tragically persistent gap between the law and the lived experiences of migrants, and the political obstacles to reform. Sarah Stillman’s reporting underscores the urgent need to modernize the asylum system, end criminalization and profit-driven detention, and address both immediate abuses and systemic failures. The conversation makes clear: humane border policy is within reach—if there is the will to see migrants as people, not threats.