Podcast Summary: The Political Scene | The New Yorker

Episode: Who Killed Jean McConville?
Date: February 25, 2019
Host: David Remnick
Guest: Patrick Radden Keefe (Staff Writer, Author of Say Nothing)

Overview

This episode delves into the political and personal mysteries surrounding the 1972 disappearance and murder of Jean McConville during The Troubles in Northern Ireland. David Remnick interviews Patrick Radden Keefe, staff writer for The New Yorker and author of Say Nothing, a book that investigates the killing, the trauma it left behind, and the ongoing shadow of the IRA and its leadership, especially Gerry Adams, decades after the official end of the conflict.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Historical Backdrop of The Troubles

• Belfast became synonymous with violence, including bombings, murders, and guerrilla warfare, for nearly 40 years.
  • [01:35] David Remnick: “For nearly 40 years, the city of Belfast was synonymous with bombings, murders and guerrilla warfare.”
• The political process officially ended in 1998 with the Good Friday Agreement, but the legacy and tensions persist.
  • [01:48] “The conflict in Northern Ireland between the British government and the IRA … ended in 1998. Officially, that is. But the Troubles continued to bubble up in unexpected places.”

The Mystery of Jean McConville

• Jean McConville was a widowed mother of ten, abducted from her home by the IRA in 1972 and “disappeared.” Her children never knew her fate; her body was only found in 2003.
  • [03:02] Patrick Radden Keefe: “There was a woman named Jean McConville, who was a mother of 10 and a widow who was taken away by the IRA and disappeared. She was killed, but her body was buried in an unmarked grave.”
• The IRA justified the killing by labeling her as an informant, a claim her children vehemently deny.
  • [03:44] Patrick Radden Keefe: “This is what her children … vehemently contest … They said, what would she know? She was trying to take care of us.”
• No definitive answer exists regarding her informant status; the book lays out evidence on both sides.
  • [03:56] “There’s not a definitive answer … There are people who today will swear up and down that she was and that she wasn’t. So I don’t know.”

Trauma, Secrets, and the Oral History Project

• Former IRA figures like Dolores Price participated in secret oral history interviews stored at Boston College, meant to be sealed until the interviewee's death.
  • [02:44] David Remnick describes the Boston College tapes.
• In 2013, after Dolores Price’s death, information started to emerge about the McConville killing.
  • [04:55] Patrick Radden Keefe: “It was only more than a decade after that that people like Dolores Price started talking, and some of these secrets began to come out … about this death.”
• Keefe’s narrative approach – treating the true story with the depth and nuance of a novel to portray the impact of violence on both victims and perpetrators.
  • [05:19] “Part of what I was trying to do in this book is take one violent incident and approach it as you would a novel … and you look at the way it affected them, the victims and the perpetrators alike, and how that played out over the decades.”

The Gerry Adams Controversy

• The Boston College tapes pointed to significant political figures, including Gerry Adams, as being implicated in McConville’s murder.
• Adams has always denied ever being in the IRA or ordering any such murders, but Keefe states he is comfortable asserting Adams’ involvement, based on extensive IRA interviews.
  • [07:14] Patrick Radden Keefe: “Adams, who I feel pretty comfortable saying was in fact a commander in the IRA for many years.”
  • [07:22] David Remnick: “How do you know?”
  • [07:24] Patrick Radden Keefe: “Because I’ve interviewed a whole bunch of people who were in the IRA with him ... It’s Adams who maintains today that he was never in the IRA and there’s nobody else.”
• Whether Adams directly ordered the killing, Keefe says more than one person involved claimed he did.
  • [07:38] “Yes. And more than one person who was involved has said this. He denies it…”

Notable Quote:

“This means you could be torturing the man and he wouldn't tell you anything. ... But if you want to go in with your WE notebook, good luck to you.”
— Patrick Radden Keefe [08:25], on Gerry Adams' evasive tactics

Fracturing Among Former IRA Members

• Dolores Price and others felt betrayed by Adams for disavowing their shared history and violence as Sinn Fein moved into politics.
  • [09:58] “What you've done is you’ve changed the means ... Adams would rather blithely say, oh, well, I personally was never in the IRA. … And that drove some of these people mad.”
• The emotional and political legacy: Adams is essential to the peace process, but morally ambiguous.
  • [10:48] Patrick Radden Keefe: “I find him emotionally very unsympathetic. Downright sociopathic in his kind of clinical tendency ... But politically, Adams was the one who realized that you need to end this fight.”

The Reporting and Book

• Keefe describes the intense decision and legal process in naming a living person as a perpetrator in his book.
  • [12:12] “It was certainly the most intense decision I've ever made in my career as a reporter and writer. ... I would never have named the name ... unless I was absolutely sure.”
• The accused responded only with a denial after publication; no legal pushback ensued.
  • [13:18] “The book came out ... this person released a statement saying it wasn't true, but that they wouldn't be saying anything more about it. And I've heard nothing since.”

The Human Cost: Jean McConville’s Children

• The ten McConville children were orphaned and separated into different orphanages, suffering further trauma.
  • [13:57] Patrick Radden Keefe: “...the state split them up and put them in different orphanages. And those orphanages were every bit as bad as you might imagine... So the kids were re-victimized in a whole series of awful ways.”
• They were shocked by the revelations in Keefe’s book, but, upon reflection, the new information “made perfect sense.”
  • [14:40] “They were extremely surprised about the identity of the person who I pointed to. ... But when you thought about it, it made perfect sense.”

The Troubles’ Lingering Shadow

• Despite the peace process, threats and tensions persist, with fears that Brexit may inflame divisions and potentially lead to renewed violence.
  • [15:50] Patrick Radden Keefe: “There definitely is some form of [the IRA] that continues to exist and tensions are high... if you ignore this kind of history, it will come back and have its revenge... Some of the more alarmist coverage ... has suggested that you could get a return to the battle days of 1972. I think that's pretty unlikely.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Decision to Name a Suspect:

  “There was a lot of lawyering, as you’d imagine. And this person is still alive. ... I would never have named ... someone and accused them of carrying out one of the most heinous war crimes of the Troubles ... unless I was absolutely sure.”
  – Patrick Radden Keefe [12:12]

• On Gerry Adams and Political Irony:

  “There’s an enduring irony in the idea that this is a man who was guilty of ordering perhaps the most notorious war crime of the conflict that he then helped to end.”
  – Patrick Radden Keefe [10:48]

• On the Impossible Resolution for the McConville Family:

  “The kids were re-victimized in a whole series of awful ways.”
  – Patrick Radden Keefe [13:57]

• On the Unfinished History and the Threat of the Past Returning:

  “The past will not stay buried, and if you ignore this kind of history, it will come back and have its revenge.”
  – Patrick Radden Keefe [15:50]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Basic history of the Troubles, Dolores Price’s radicalization: [01:35–02:44]
• McConville’s abduction and family trauma: [03:02–04:49]
• Oral history project and the Boston College tapes: [04:55–06:03]
• Controversy around Gerry Adams: [06:51–08:25]
• IRA veteran perspectives and feelings of betrayal: [08:50–10:25]
• Moral, legal challenges in identifying living suspects: [12:12–13:13]
• McConville children’s afterlife and reactions: [13:47–15:21]
• Lingering IRA presence and fears post-Brexit: [15:46–17:10]

Conclusion

Patrick Radden Keefe's reporting in Say Nothing—and in this interview—offers a deeply human portrait of the unsolved trauma and dangerous political legacy of the Troubles. Through the lens of the McConville murder, the episode highlights the devastating personal cost, the corrupt machinations of power, and the suffocating grip of unresolved history on modern Northern Ireland.