The PoliticsGirl Podcast
Episode: Are the Bad Guys Winning? A Conversation with Michael McFaul
Host: Leigh McGowan (PoliticsGirl)
Guest: Michael McFaul (Former Ambassador to Russia, Stanford professor, author)
Date: October 28, 2025
Episode Overview
In this high-stakes episode, Leigh McGowan sits down with Michael McFaul—one of the world’s foremost experts on autocracy, democracy, and U.S. foreign policy—to tackle the pressing question: Are the bad guys winning? With Donald Trump’s return to the White House and rising global authoritarianism, McFaul and McGowan probe the alarming threats to democracy in America and beyond. They discuss McFaul’s new book Autocrats vs. China, Russia, America and the New Global Disorder, dissect the tactics of autocrats, examine America’s vulnerabilities, and—importantly—chart a path for resistance and hope.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. America in the Age of Autocracy (03:04–04:40)
- McFaul’s book was written amidst rising global autocracy, but Trump’s reelection has put America’s role firmly in question.
- “What side of that divide we're on here in America is up for grabs… I think you have to go back to the Civil War to remember a time when the challenge to democratic institutions has been so acute.” —Michael McFaul (03:21)
- The conflict is no longer just among states—divides between autocrats and democrats are deeper and now play out within individual countries, including the United States.
2. The New Autocratic Alliance (04:40–07:06)
- Unlike the original Cold War, today’s autocrats—Russia, China, Iran, North Korea—support each other militarily, economically, and technologically.
- The democratic world is fragmented, made worse by “America First” policies and antagonism toward allies.
- Memorable: McFaul’s analogy of “red” and “blue” countries—now, the fight is within societies as much as between them.
3. Networks of Corruption and Propaganda (07:06–10:08)
- Cites Anne Applebaum’s research on autocratic networks cooperating across borders: “not just run by one bad guy, but by a network of bad guys.”
- Propaganda, oligarchs, and security services shore up power, using hypocrisy to mask self-serving policies as populism.
- “The richest people in the world are claiming to be populists in defense of working people. Sound familiar, right? And that's exactly what President Trump is doing here…” —Michael McFaul (09:17)
- The intertwining of American and Russian oligarchs sustains the system.
4. The Autocratic Playbook: Parallels Between Putin and Trump (10:08–14:48)
- Leigh traces Trump’s tactics—coercing corporations, punishing independent media, leveraging political prosecutions—directly to Putin’s strategies in Russia and those exported to other countries.
- McFaul confirms the chilling similarities, especially in targeting media, rewarding compliant oligarchs, and state ownership/deals with private business.
- “Owning pieces of companies by the state, that’s called communism... State owned enterprises, SOEs… That’s a phrase we talk about when referring to China and other communist countries, not the United States of America.” —Michael McFaul (14:05, 14:48)
5. Why America Is Not (Yet) Russia (14:48–17:37)
- Citing the depth of U.S. democratic tradition, McFaul highlights the key differences:
- America’s centuries-old “no kings” ethos and values
- Stronger independent institutions: media, NGOs, opposition parties, federalist state governors
- But warns these very institutions are under assault.
6. International Fallout and the Erosion of U.S. Global Leadership (23:53–27:47)
- Trump’s foreign policy—shuttering agencies, illegal military actions, antagonizing allies—undermines U.S. security and world order.
- The move towards isolationism and unilateralism alienates allies and emboldens adversaries.
- Dismantling tools of soft power (like USAID, the CDC) creates openings for China and Russia globally.
- “If we act... unilateralism... makes us look powerful—but I think in the long term it puts us in a much weaker [position].” —Michael McFaul (27:34)
7. The Authoritarian Narrative: When America Proves the Point (27:47–32:45)
- U.S. democratic backsliding is a boon to autocrats; it validates their claim that democracy is a sham everywhere.
- “There is nothing better than to see us tearing down our democratic institutions... There is nothing that delights them more than to see us fighting amongst ourselves.” —Michael McFaul (31:44)
8. The Power and Limits of Protest & the Dangers of 'Othering' (39:36–42:40)
- Comparisons between resistance movements in Russia (Navalny) and the U.S. “No Kings” protest.
- Autocrats use “othering”—calling protesters traitors/terrorists—to delegitimize dissent.
- “Calling them traitors, calling them terrorists, that's exactly what Putin did… arresting your critics like Putin did with Alexei Navalny.” —Michael McFaul (41:37)
9. How to Fight Back: Resistance, Resilience, and the Monopoly Analogy (44:03–49:07)
- Fight is essential and fatigue is dangerous. McFaul draws from Ukrainian resilience, reminding listeners: persistence is key.
- “If I quit fighting, the consequences are going to be worse than continuing to fight.” —Michael McFaul quoting a Ukrainian friend (44:25)
- American resistance—from boycotts to legal battles—shows promise.
- The Monopoly analogy: the only way to win is to “pool your money on the other side of the table”—collective action and solidarity.
10. Hope, Agency, and the Responsibility to Bend History (49:07–52:11)
- The arc of history bends toward justice only if people fight for it.
- “It doesn't bend unless small D Democrats bend it... Without agents there's no democracy. Without agents there's no justice. It is not just going to happen.” —Michael McFaul (49:43, 49:51)
- American interest in democracy is deeper than the pundits claim; recent crises have awakened civic engagement.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “I think you have to go back to the Civil War to remember a time when the challenge to democratic institutions has been so acute.”
—Michael McFaul (03:18) - “The autocrats are united. They're helping each other... and we're not doing the same.”
—Michael McFaul (04:40) - “The richest people in the world are claiming to be populists in defense of working people. Sound familiar, right?”
—Michael McFaul (09:17) - “Owning pieces of companies by the state, that's called communism… That’s a phrase we talk about when referring to China and other communist countries, not the United States of America.”
—Michael McFaul (14:05, 14:48) - “These are values that are deep and not just as shallow as they were in Russia in the early 2000s... But second, the institutions that were checks on executive power when Putin came to power... were a lot weaker in Russia than they are today.”
—Michael McFaul (15:01) - “Might makes right without any rule of law. That is a dangerous, slippery slope.”
—Michael McFaul (25:48) - “You are absolutely right. To autocrats like Putin, there is nothing better than to see us tearing down our democratic institutions.”
—Michael McFaul (31:44) - “Calling them traitors, calling them terrorists, that's exactly what Putin did... arresting your critics like Putin did with Alexei Navalny...”
—Michael McFaul (41:37) - “If I quit fighting, the consequences are going to be worse than continuing to fight.”
—Michael McFaul quoting a Ukrainian friend (44:25) - “We should not be having fights about the rules of the game. We should. All Americans should be on the same side of our democratic institutions.”
—Michael McFaul (45:44) - “It doesn't bend unless small D Democrats bend it... Without agents there's no democracy. Without agents there's no justice. It is not just going to happen.”
—Michael McFaul (49:43, 49:51) - “Forget Big D, Democrat, forget Republican. Like, do you want a free America or a captured America?”
—Leigh McGowan (53:37)
Important Timestamps
- 03:04 — McFaul discusses the acute threat to U.S. democracy.
- 04:40 — The new global autocratic alliance and U.S. disunity.
- 07:06 — Anne Applebaum’s “bad guys network” and global autocratic cooperation.
- 09:17 — The hypocrisy of populist autocrats, in Russia and America.
- 14:05–14:48 — “Owning pieces… that’s called communism,” state capture parallels.
- 23:53 — Checks and balances failings in foreign policy.
- 31:44 — How U.S. democratic erosion helps autocrats abroad.
- 41:37 — The Russian tactic of “othering” and Navalny’s fate.
- 44:25 — The necessity of relentless resistance—“If I quit fighting…”
- 49:43 — The arc of justice bends only with concerted effort.
- 53:37 — The “free America vs. captured America” choice for voters.
Conclusion: Where Do We Go From Here?
Both McFaul and McGowan stress that while the hour is late and the threats are real, the fate of American democracy is not yet sealed. The key takeaways:
- Constant Vigilance: Autocracy advances when good people give up.
- Collective Action: Pool resources, protect institutions, and support resistance.
- Engagement: Every person must act—democracy’s future demands citizen involvement at every level.
- Hope and Agency: American civic identity, strong institutions, and the will of its people remain powerful, provided we choose to fight—as partners, not bystanders.
Buy Michael McFaul’s book: “Autocrats vs. Democrats” (HarperCollins) — available everywhere.
“I'm optimistic that we're gonna be okay.” —Michael McFaul (53:37)