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- [00:00]
John Pavlovitz
The truth is we're going to be getting bad news all the time. So we have to fortify ourselves. And part of the way we do that is by staying connected to our source, whether that is our faith or whether it's our families or our morality or the connections around us. I always tell people, don't sacrifice yourself on the altar of your empathy. So as much as you care, that's a beautiful thing, but it can really tear you up. And so you have to protect yourself in all of this.
- [00:40]
Lee McGowan
Hello and welcome to the Politics Girl Podcast. I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it. Well, it's Christmas Eve and the beginning of Hanukkah, and whether you're listening to this now or later, there is no getting around the fact that we are in the season of hope and goodwill and looking out for your fellow man at a time where many people are feeling the opposite. As today's guest pastor and writer John Pavlovit says, these are dark days in America and it's hard to square that with the season of light that as John writes in his substack, the Beautiful Mess. Outside of a select few, many of us aren't feeling particularly festive right now. We're struggling to ignore the tension we're dealing with or our feelings about the people that are around us and the pain in our own souls. It doesn't matter what religion you practice or if you practice anything at all. There are a lot of conflicting feelings around the holidays this year, particularly around American Christians and Christmas and probably the destructive nature of capitalism itself and how that all plays into this season. So I've invited John to join us today as I did for the holidays last year, because while he has spent 28 years in ministry, he's kind of a unicorn in today's Christian communities with his deep commitment to equality and diversity and justice inside and outside of his faith. As a writer and a pastor and an activist, John is one of those people who reminds you there's still good in the world. And at a time where cruelty has become the point, finding people who still lead with love and kindness feels brave. So without further ado, please welcome my guest, author, pastor and modern day philosopher, John Pavlovitz. Welcome back, John.
- [02:11]
John Pavlovitz
Hey my friend. So good to be with you today.
- [02:13]
Lee McGowan
Oh, thank you for coming. You know I love you, I love your perspective, I love your substack. And a lot of what you've written recently has made me feel kind of sane post election as I kind of struggled with how to See my fellow Americans after they chose this horrible man to be our leader again. So thank you for joining me for another holiday season, because I think this is kind of a. A tough time for some people.
- [02:35]
John Pavlovitz
It is. It would have been a tough time even if we didn't have these national crises and constitutional ills to deal with. So there's just a lot happening, whether it's the big and distant or the small and the close, and we're dealing with all of it.
- [02:50]
Lee McGowan
It's so true. Now, this episode is going to be airing on Christmas Eve Day, which is also the first night of Hanukkah and two days before the start of Kwanzaa. So I think it's safe to say the height of the season and a holiday season that's really supposed to be about light and love. And I think that's why so many of us are feeling conflicted about this season. You wrote an article at the beginning of December called the Cost of Knowing, which reminded me of what I believe is an old New Yorker cartoon where a woman and man are walking down the street and the woman says to the man, my desire to stay informed directly conflicts with my desire to stay sane. And I think a lot of us are feeling that right now. I mean, as you wrote, we've always been taught that knowledge is power, but right now, knowing feels like a problem. And I thought you put it well when you said responsible people with empathy are suffering right now with information poisoning. So what do you think we do with all that we know and all that we know is coming?
- [03:47]
John Pavlovitz
Well, I think part of it, Lee, is to stick with what we know because we can be so overwhelmed with what we think is on the horizon and go into all these scenarios that are brains are really not equipped for. And so there's enough that we have to deal with in the present. And so it's to try to remain in that place so that we can deal with the what is and not the what might be, because that's. There's enough there that we. That requires our attention. And I think it's trying to find the balance between knowing enough so that we can accurately respond, but not so much that we don't right size the bad news because that can. All social media can leave us so overwhelmed because we see the same stories over and over again. And so we need to kind of recalibrate. And so I think many people need to give themselves a little bit of a break during the holidays so that they can really be present for the small world that's in front of them for their families and their partnerships and their marriages and their friends. Because we can't afford to lose those critical connections while we're trying to resist these, these societal problems.
- [04:56]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. I find it hard not to be jealous of people who are ignorant to what's going on right now, who are by nature or by choice, they don't know what's happening or by the nature of their privilege, they've opted out of knowing what's happening. And of course there's the people who actively refuse to believe anything that might upset them. Right. And it's terrible to feel depressed about the news and the world and it's terrible to constantly worry about what's coming. I like to know what things are going on. I like to plan for what's coming ahead so that I can be prepared for it. But I know everything is going to be so different in the new year that I feel like I can't plan. And it's going to be sort of a day to day situation in 2025. And it's about learning to live with the uncertainty while you sort of prepare for contingencies. And that's a lot for people to manage. So I think it is really important to kind of stay in the moment. We're taught that all the time that we should be in the present. You know, it's a very actually Buddhist way of thinking.
- [05:53]
John Pavlovitz
Yeah.
- [05:54]
Lee McGowan
But it's hard, it's hard to do that. Especially when you are filled with knowledge. The more you learn, the more it feels a bit like an attack.
- [06:02]
John Pavlovitz
Yeah. And I think you hit on something when you mentioned the idea of control. Because when things are smooth on the surface, we have the illusion of control. And when moments like this happen, we realize how much is outside of our area of influence. And so we have to stay in the smaller spaces. So I've always talked to people about proximity and agency. So you always have proximity to pain and to struggle. And you have agency. You have an ability to meet those needs right there. And so if we stay in that place, it gives us a sense of hope because we can find attainable ways to be positive and to help people. And so that's where we have to, I think, stay right now is in what we have our control over. That's going to be the constant battle. Because the truth is we're going to be getting bad news all, all the time. So we have to fortify ourselves. And part of the way we do that is by staying connected to our source, whether that is our faith or whether it's our families or our morality or the. The connections around us. I always tell people, don't sacrifice yourself on the altar of your empathy. So as much as you care, that's a beautiful thing, but it can really tear you up, and so you have to protect yourself in all of this.
- [07:24]
Lee McGowan
Hmm. That's interesting. I think we know we need to know things, but often knowing things makes us feel awful, and telling people what we know makes them feel awful, so they tune us out. Right. Which is why, moving forward, I think you're right, we have to be careful with how much we take in and also how much we put out. I mean, I know that I have been limiting my rants in my kitchen lately, not because there isn't so much to know, but because I don't want to add too much to the depressing noise right now. Like you said, social media can give us the same story over and over and over and over again until the story itself, which could be terrible, feels insurmountable. Right. And I don't want to weigh people down until they can actually do something to change things. We recently had David Rothkob on the show, and he was saying, we need to see the big picture, and then we need to pick our battles, because, yes, everything. You know, it feels like almost everything is bad, but if we get outraged by everything, we will burn out. And you smartly pointed out in your own writing that if there is a way forward through this, it isn't about knowing less, but absorbing the information in a way that doesn't hurt us, where we can still be productive. You wrote that we need to selectively expose ourselves to media and have the discipline to know the difference between making ourselves aware and self harm. And I think that's really important.
- [08:51]
John Pavlovitz
Yeah. And I think part of that, Lee, is going to be about saying, what are the two or three things that really burden me? So we can look at something like LGBTQ equality or health care or immigration, and we're, again, going to be getting bad news on all those fronts. So it's sort of deciding in advance, what are the two or three things that really boil my blood? What are the things that keep me up at night and lean into those particular burdens and figure out how we can alleviate the pain that's close to us in those areas and realize that there are other people who are going to be filling the needs elsewhere. So. And one of the most powerful parts of that is getting into communities. Community is medicinal because it helps us realize that we're not alone and that's one of the biggest sort of drains on our emotional systems, is feeling like we're alone in this, but it also. We find people who are attending to things that we can't attend to, and that gives us a sense of peace as well.
- [09:50]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, we had one of the heads of indivisible on the show sort of soon after the election. And a lot of that is about joining indivisible groups in your local area or starting one of your own and focusing on what it is that you're most passionate about. You know, like you said, if you're really passionate about making sure we hold on to LGBTQ rights, like, focus on that. Don't feel like you also have to be focusing on the environment and focusing on the economy and focusing on. There's going to be different groups of people that. That's their major passion. And then we have to support each other as we all fight our little battles as a collective unit. What we can't do is check out, because the truth is, if we're going to fight back against what's coming, if we're going to make a difference, we have to amplify the bad news. We can' ignore it. We're going to need to tell people what's happening. But more importantly, if we want to make change, we really need to keep harping on who's to blame, because I think often we. We blame the wrong person. And the challenge, as you've pointed out in your writing, will be to convince those people who are happily unaware that they need to allow real life to inconvenience them, that we need to get them to care enough to let the truth disrupt their ignorance, because they're happy there. They're happy not knowing. And you wrote that knowledge may be pain, but it is still one of the most powerful weapons we have to stay in this fight and to stay human in what could be inhumane times.
- [11:17]
John Pavlovitz
Yeah. Lee, I think what happens is when we have this information that you and I are talking about, we've been immersed in the lives of other people. And so people of empathy, they're easily wounded. And there's a grieving that comes when you find out how many people are actually under duress right now in the particular ways they're suffering. And so you have to be willing to do that grieving. And that grieving is the sort of the pathway to then go to say, well, what is my response to what I am seeing? And I think that's really important because sometimes I ask people to think about energy, orientation, and what I mean by that is, if I want to fight for LGBTQ equality, sometimes I'm in a posture of fighting. I'm fighting against legislation, and I'm fighting for things happening in the judicial system. And then the other thing I'm doing is I'm trying to care for people who are LGBTQ and be in relationship with them and live alongside them. So it's. It's fighting the same thing, but there's a very different energy. One is a battle posture, and the one is of a caregiver. So, for example, if you're really burdened by, you know, the struggle for LGBTQ rights, you can fight for legislation, but you can also volunteer for a local pride in your neighborhood, and there you're doing the same work. And that's the kind of thing, the latter, you might be able to invite someone in who's blissfully ignorant. They may not want. Not want to go to a rally or be part of a protest, but they might want to spend some time with people and hear their stories, and that is what might change them.
- [12:49]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. It's two different ways of fighting for the same issue.
- [12:54]
John Pavlovitz
Yeah.
- [12:54]
Lee McGowan
One being sort of like a forward momentum battle position, and the other one is more of a caring, hopeful thing that might actually encourage more people to join in.
- [13:02]
John Pavlovitz
Yeah, maybe.
- [13:03]
Lee McGowan
And speaking of more people, how do you recommend, as we sit down this holiday season with the people in our lives and engage with them without bringing them or ourselves down? You know, how do we exist amongst our relatives that don't share our political views or the ones who do, but with whom we might have a tendency to spiral into depression with? You know, like, how do you recommend we do that we sit down over these holidays and really interact with the people in our lives?
- [13:30]
John Pavlovitz
Well, I think a couple things as you're sharing it, I'm thinking of different family members, and some of them are still receptive to me, and they're open to having conversations, and they're still curious. And with them, I have a much different posture than those who I know are going to come only to incite or to insult. And so it really depends on the people that you have across from you and the stage that you are in your relationship with them. So, for example, I've got an older relative who I know doesn't have a lot of time here, so I'm trying to look at my time with them and say, what is the best use of these last few gatherings that we're going to have that's very different than maybe someone who's younger, who I'm going to assume I'm going to have more time with. But one of the greatest things I ask people to think about is when they're with family, we're always going to be in the tension between our convictions and our relationships, and sometimes those aren't going to match up. And so we have to choose. Who are we going to lean into? What are we going to try to preserve the relationship across the table from us, or are we going to try to stand with and for marginalized people, and we may have to represent them in that conversation with a relative and risk the turbulence and risk the difficult conversations, the awkward moments. So it's a really delicate balance. And you really have to just say, as I enter this gathering with people who I know and love, who am I going to choose to be? How am I going to show up in this moment? I can't control their politics or their religion or how they respond to criticism. I can only say I'm going to be the best version of myself in this particular exchange and live with the fallout that happens.
- [15:10]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. I would also remind people that they don't owe anyone their time. You don't have to go anywhere or be with anyone that makes you unhappy or uncomfortable or who marginalizes you or demeans you.
- [15:23]
John Pavlovitz
That's right.
- [15:23]
Lee McGowan
But I also think you remind us in your writing that a lot of people don't see themselves as the bad guy. They don't see themselves as racist or bigoted. There are a lot of people who genuinely think this next administration is going to make everything better, that they chose the hero and were being, you know, the assholes. And I think that's a difficult road to walk. I mean, I do think sometimes biting your tongue and waiting and like you're saying, just being the good person you are and living in your own truth is good and sort of holding out for the results. I often say go into things with curiosity, like, where did you hear that? Why do you think that? What did you read that? That kind of curiosity. But also, you know, right now, after this election, it's different. We're not trying to change anyone's mind. It is what it is at this point. And I was listening to the head of a big women's healthcare and abortion care organization recently, and she was talking about how they're taking a break from messaging right now because sadly, their research showed that the best thing their movement could do right now is to wait. To wait and allow people to experience the inevitable consequences of the results of this election. And the idea is to take a step back from trying to teach people what they don't want to learn and let them learn from experience. And sadly, that is a more suffering forward way of doing things. But it might be just where we're at how many transactions do you think you make each month? Honestly, I couldn't even guess. But it turns out the average US consumer makes about 70 payments a month, probably near double in the holidays. And trying to keep track of all of that can feel impossible. But that's exactly why Rocket Money is so helpful. 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- [21:32]
John Pavlovitz
Many of us are waiting to dole out the I told you so's, and that's gonna be very tempting. I've had to fight that probably a thousand times today already. But I think we have to have a little gentleness because as you said, no one ever thinks they're doing it wrong, whether it's politics or religion or raising. And so everyone, the story in our heads is that we're a decent human being. And so we have to operate from that understanding that no one intentionally goes out and does something damaging or very few people. And so if we can understand that the heart of most people is to fix whatever they feel is broken, whatever that looks like to them, and to understand that the fear that is at the center of that really can manipulate us all into acting foolishly. And so when we see a politics of fear as the right has practiced for so long, we have a group of terrified people across from us. And so that's another thing that figures into this. It's helping to understand that everyone wants to feel secure and safe and. And really the instincts are the same. It's just the way those are getting expressed are very different right now.
- [22:38]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. And it's what we get from propaganda. Right. It's what we get from people being inundated every day with fear and lies. And it's what we get from the mainstream media choosing profit over the truth. Right. We might have a whole group of people who don't really know the truth until it literally hits them in the face. And we just have to hope it's not too late by that time to wake people up, to pull people back up and set us on a different path once the wool comes off their eyes. It reminds me of if I tell you not to touch the stove because it's hot and you just refuse to believe me and you fight to get to the stove over and over again, and you belittle me and you push me out of the way only to get burnt. You know, that might be what happens. And we just have to make sure that the same propaganda and the mainstream media machine that did this to People doesn't turn around and blame us for letting them touch the stove. Right. Which I think is, is what happens a lot. And then many of us innocent people get burnt along the way as they make this mistakes. So I think that's what we have to be careful of moving into this next moment, that we need to learn to live in the moment. But that moment needs to be followed up with excellent leadership and quality messaging on our part so that it doesn't get turned around again.
- [23:52]
John Pavlovitz
Yeah. I talked to a group of activists recently about the election, and many of them were saying if Kamala had won but the Congress had still been in Republican control, we could have had such a chaotic experience. And that maybe now because things were so lopsided, at least with the presidency and Congress, that many on the right who are more incendiary might relax a little bit and exhale. But what's going to happen is the results of the election, as you said, they're going to show up in legislation that is passed or that legislation they try to pass. And many people who thought we were adversaries are going to realize that we were allies all along. That's my deep hope. I've been trying to tell Trump, Trump supporters for years, I'm. I'm with you, I'm for you. I'm actually fighting him because I care about you more than he does. And that's my hope, is that in the coming year we're going to all see together that we are not the enemy of one another. It's the disinformation, it's the fear mongering, and it's the people in power who are the people we need to oppose together. And maybe this will offer us a chance to do that in a way we haven't in a while.
- [24:59]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, I think that that is what I'm hoping for, too. It's what I'm holding up my hope for, that it's gonna be absolutely terrible for so many people. And yet maybe because the Democrats have zero power, there won't be a scapegoat in which to point the finger at as readily as they've been able to in the past. You wrote a piece at the beginning of December called America Chose the Monster. And it starts by saying that we all make mistakes. That most of us can remember a time in our life when our judgment was off. Or looking back, we can see that we blew it. Right. And we feel embarrassed about it or we feel ashamed of our choice. And while regret in itself is a universal condition, it often comes down to us wavering with the desire to escape from the feelings of guilt that accompany it. And you point out in your writing that for most people, that comes down to a time where we run out of excuses, right? Where we can't continue to pretend we didn't know what we were doing or we were tricked. And we have to kind of come to terms with our own bad decisions. And if we want to move forward. I think all the anonymous programs are based around that, all the AA programs. Like, at first you have to admit you have a problem, right? And then there's all these steps you have to take to kind of come to terms with what you have done. But you said it really beautifully. You said America was given a choice between a monster and a qualified, intelligent, joyful woman of color. And we chose the monster. So, as a country, we need to collectively reckon with the fallout of that kind of a poor decision.
- [26:26]
John Pavlovitz
And that is going to require reaching across the aisles of difference and saying, this is something that we arrived at collectively. And I don't know how we do that other than to say there was an environment far before Trump. There were systems in America that have existed for a couple hundred years and that this is now. They've all come to the surface. And so we're really looking in the mirror of our nation right now, and that includes all of us in different ways, different levels of privilege and what that means. And there has to be a personal inventory of how have I benefited from the systems, how have I been negligent or slow in changing those systems and going forward, who do I want to be and how do I want to shape the future of this nation? Because it's in our control as much as it's ever been. We still have the same avenues that we've always had. And so what are we going to do with the rest of the time we have here? I think the end of the year and the holidays are a good time to say, what do I want my personal legacy to be? I, you know, I. I have given a talk around the country over the past 18 months before the election. And I would say to people, this isn't about someone else's cruelty. This is about your empathy. And this is not about their badness. It's about your goodness. It's not that hatred around you. It's about your capacity to love. And that's what it's always going to be about. We can lament everything around us that we feel is wrong, but ultimately we can look in the mirror and say, what can I do. And that's where we all have to be, I think.
- [28:02]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. But if we're looking in the mirror, we probably also have to acknowledge that as a country, we started this nation on the foundation that the people who counted the most were white, straight men of privilege with property. And we have circled back around almost 250 years later to say, who are we going to favor white, straight men of privilege and property? And it is exactly how we built the nation. So we can't be so shocked that this is where we ended up or that the people who started with the original amounts of power are now saying, well, wait a second, I'd like to be back on top of that pyramid again. And this is where we are. So the question is, what are we gonna do with that? And I think that that's actually a real opportunity for us to perhaps create a nation that actually includes more than those originally were included. And I think what people struggle with, with the Trump election in many ways, is that it feels like Americans chose to abandon decency. You know, we chose to. And equality or honesty or goodness, that we collectively doubled down on bigotry and criminality and chose someone we know to be a criminal and an adjudicated rapist to lead us. And he's surrounding himself with the same type of people, and that is hard for people of empathy to accept. Right. And I think that it's. You. You called it a nonpartisan tragedy that this situation, though the election itself was completely partisan, the fallout, nonpartisan. It's going to affect all of us. And I just hope that enough people can see, no matter how they voted, that ultimately we're going to see that the man they chose ultimately doesn't care about us. He's not going to give us better health care or lower prices. He's not going to help the poor. You can see now everything he's doing. He's going to cut taxes for the wealthy, he's going to pillage the government with his rich pals right in front of our faces. And unless you're the wealthiest person in the nation, no one is going to be healthier or safer or more financially secure in Trump's America. And that is exactly what you said, a tragedy. And hopefully, even though it's a scary time, it's an awakening for a lot of us, even people who might have voted for this. And although people don't make great decisions when they are in fear, you said, well, that we should be holding up the light. Right? That that's the smartest thing to do to hold up the light in the darkness for each other, but also to hold up the light on the worst things that are happening.
- [30:27]
John Pavlovitz
Yeah, if there's anything we. You don't want to stop doing, it's being informed and then, yeah, letting people know what's actually happening and fighting that disinformation is going to be more difficult than ever. But I think part of it happens. It's relational activism. So you talk about the people who voted for Trump, and our street is filled with people who did. And so now I have to realize, okay, I have a responsibility to interact with them as we go through this, you know, the difficulties of the coming months and try to pull them into a collective response and let them know that I'm in it with them, rather than say, okay, see what you've done, and give them a middle finger, figuratively or literally. And I have to figure out, how can I show them who I am and who this, what this movement is, you know, what the moderate and left movement really is about. It really is about the diversity of humanity. And so they represent part of that diversity. If my sense of diversity or the bigger table is only from the center to the left of me, then I'm really not practicing what I've been preaching. And that's the hardest place right now. It's going to be showing empathy toward people who have shown very little empathy.
- [31:44]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, that is a tough call. I mean, it's a tough thing to do. It's a tough hill to climb. And I think in a lot of ways, I don't think people need to start there. They can start with being a good person themselves. I often say, if you're going to reach, reach out to anyone right now, reach out to the people who didn't think they needed to vote. You know, those are an easier conversation to have. The people that were like, ah, it didn't matter. You can be like, look, it really did, you know, look what's happening now. I do think people love a villain. For a long time, the Democrats were a villain. I think very easily now we can see that we could potentially make the billionaires the villain, because that's what they are. And they're trying to rape and pillage the country as we speak. And most of us are not and never will be billionaires. So it allows us to collectively see them for what they're doing. And, you know, like, Donald Trump casts a wide shadow, Right? He has no shame. He can take the hits and. But he stands with a huge shadow behind him where the rest of those Billionaires are hiding, and they are not used to negative attention or scrutiny. You know, like, we have to make sure that they can't hide from their behavior or the fallout of these terrible decisions behind the shadow of Donald Trump's behavior. Right. So I think we need to give our neighbors and our friends the ability to see that, that to illuminate what's going to be happening in every sort of corner of American society and give them a reason to work with us to stop it, to show a better alternative than this evil American aristocracy.
- [33:05]
John Pavlovitz
Yeah. And I think one of the difficult things we have in front of us, Lee, is that we know what it feels like to be in a gathering where diversity is celebrated and where difference of opinion to a responsible degree is. Is lived with. And we know how beautiful that can be. And so I think the people on the right who have been living under this fear and this constant perpetuation of stereotypes and prejudices, they've sort of lost their imagination on what it can actually look like. Why do they fear difference? Why are they against more people having what they have? And if we could only illustrate that, if we could show them a tangible expression of that, maybe it could wake people up that, hey, this is the better way. And that's going to be the challenge. Because the disinformation network is so organized and so strong. What do you combat that with? How do you have a sort of propaganda of hope that you can let people know? Like, this is actually what it feels like. I remember being at a. At a common rally a few months ago and looking around and saying, this is just the better way to live. Everyone there realized that they were welcomed, and that's what you want to invite people from the right into because they've lost some sight of even wanting that.
- [34:22]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, that's true. It's a lot like the content online. When you see women not complaining about their husbands and being like, oh, I love my husband. He's fantastic, and he supports me doing this, this and that. And, you know, like, here he is doing this, and then it's just endless comments about what a cuck he is and why he's such a beta. And, you know, it's like even showing something more positive often gives people a negative reaction, and we sort of have to keep leading by example. So. So let's bring it back to the holiday, right? The reason for the season you wrote, for most of your life, you have absolutely loved this time of year. And you are not alone, my friend. I feel the same way. But this idea of Everyone being in the holiday spirit. Right. Being a little more friendly to each other, a little kinder, you know, being really, really busy before the holidays, and then slowing down and spending that time with friends and family and maybe looking out for the less fortunate. And things might be feeling a little different to people this year, maybe not so merry and bright. Right. And you wrote that many people might be feeling themselves, their own light dimming these days. And what would you say to the people that are feeling that right now?
- [35:25]
John Pavlovitz
I would tell them that part of the reason they feel that is the goodness within them, the compassion and their humanity that's coming to bear right now. And so for the ways that we feel saddened or disheartened or disenchanted, I would say to almost celebrate that, because that's your soul doing what a soul is supposed to do. It's an alarm that says something is not right. And so that grieving and that sadness shouldn't be unwelcome in the holidays. It should be something where you say, I'm going to take that sadness and that grief and I'm going to transform it into something else. Whether that is a small gathering with a couple of people who I feel really connected to, whether it's me giving a little bit more time to people in need than I might. Might normally do. What are some small ways that I can reaffirm what matters to me, you know, reestablish my why again, because the reasons you're disheartened, they're valid and they're. They're a reminder that you are a good human being. And we need good human beings right now. So that's my story right now. I. I've always grown up realizing that the. The Christian story, my Christian story was about celebration and suffering. It was about joy and grief. It was about this beautiful light in the world, and the dark wanted to snuff it out. And so we can sit with that complexity and just say, what can I offer to move the balance toward light? And we always can do something.
- [36:57]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, do something. Remind yourself why we live, why we're here, what we're doing. Often this has a lot to do, I think, with the people that are in our lives, right? The people that we love to spend time with, the people we enjoy. And the holidays give us an opportunity often to spend time with those people. So we should be present, as you said, at the beginning, when we're there, right? Take the time to laugh, you know, give yourself those moments. You know, do the things that bring other people joy. That often brings you joy. I know that. I personally love giving presents way more than I love receiving presents. I get really excited to watch people open things I know that are gonna make them happy, you know, and it gets you out of your own head. Right. And I also think people should be kind to themselves. Right. If they have to cry, cry. If you wanna sleep, sleep. If you hate your Aunt Becky, then, like, don't talk to that bitch. Find ways to sustain your energy, because we're gonna need that energy. Energy moving forward. You wrote, in the days when darkness seems to be winning, do not lose your spark. Protect, nurture and kindle it. And I think that's so important. You remind us to kind of look around carefully and find the things and the people that give us hope. And even if that means looking past all the things that make us feel hopeless, sometimes we have to really seek out the things that we're working for that we care about, that we love, and hone in on that as an anchor in the darkness.
- [38:20]
John Pavlovitz
There is a quote from Viktor Frankl, and he was held prisoner in the Nazi camps, and he said, there's a space between stimulus and response. And in that space is our freedom to choose, and we have freedom to be who we will be between stimulus and response. And the thing is, the present is always that space between stimulus and response. So we're getting all this information, this political information about our nation, about our families, about our churches, and then we have a response. And so that response could be, I'm going to pull out for a little while and rest and recalibrate so that I can care for the greatest resource I have in making a more compassionate world, which is myself. Or I'm going to move into this season intentionally trying to be a person of joy. But for those who are listening right now is to realize that you have this present moment. That's your space between stimulus and response, and you're in control of that. And that can be the best weapon you have against hopelessness.
- [39:22]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us today, John. I know where we are is not where we want to be.
- [39:30]
John Pavlovitz
That's right.
- [39:30]
Lee McGowan
And none of what's coming is going to be easy. But this holiday season, I have to say I'm actually very grateful for my spark. I'm not ready to give it, no matter how many, what seemingly powerful people seem more than willing to snuff it out. Right. You always say seek the beautiful trapped under the bad because it's the beautiful, which is things like our kindness and our goodness that are always worth seeking. So please tell people how they can follow your work going forward, because you don't have to be a person of faith to get hope from you. And I want people to know where to find your work.
- [40:00]
John Pavlovitz
Well, thank you. My name is John Pavlovitz. Pavlov I T Z. There are not a lot of them in the world, so. So you'll find me through that. And I have a substack called the Beautiful Mess. And I would look forward to connecting with so many of your readers and listeners.
- [40:16]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, well, it's absolutely worth it, you guys. I can't say enough about it. It would be a gift to yourself to read John's work. So go off into the day thinking about what your personal legacy is going to be, enjoying the company of those you love and being the best version of yourself and keep that light alive. Happy holidays, my friends, and thank you, John, for being with us.
- [40:34]
John Pavlovitz
Thank you so much.
- [40:37]
Lee McGowan
So that was John Pavlovitz reminding us to stick with what we know. That bad news might be coming at us at 100 miles an hour, but we will fare best if we stay in the present dealing with what is rather than what might be. To find a balance between knowing what's going on and being drowned by what's going on. That we will be most served by staying connected to our source, to the things that give us strength and purpose, whether that's our faith, our family, our jobs, and no matter how much we care about the world, we don't serve anyone if we sacrifice ourselves at the altar of our empathy. Pick the battles you can and fight to make the difference where you can, rather than spreading yourself so thin that you burn out and help no one. At the end of the day, take care of yourself so that you can take care of others. I want to thank John for joining us today and you for caring enough about the country to be here. Now go and tend your collective sparks, because it is our collective light that will ultimately set us on a better path. Happy holidays, my friends. Until next week, peachy. Out. Before you go, I just wanted to thank my premium members for continuing to support my work. I think we can see now, from ABC's $15 million bribe to Trump and MSNBC's apology to Trump and Fox News, that the mainstream media won't be the ones speaking truth to power in the coming years. Which is why it is essential that those of us who are doing independent work are fully supported. Moving forward, it is time for people to invest in those who respect them enough to be honest with them. So if you aren't already a Politics Girl Premium member, please consider going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. I really can't continue this work without your help, but the beauty of signing up to support me is that you will get this podcast ad free, along with my short rant sent directly to your inbox. So even if my work is silenced on social media, you will still have access to the truth. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode, but also@politicsgirl.com as always, thank you for your continued time and support. Happy, Happy Holidays. The Politics Girl Podcast is written and performed by me, Lee McGowan, in partnership with the Midas Media Network, and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.