Loading summary
Transcript42 lines
- [00:00]
Deborah Archer
We are seeing a weaponization of our government against its own citizens, against immigrants who are parts of our communities in ways that should trouble all of us. Because it's a slippery slope, right? It's one step at a time towards more and more people's rights being violated, more and more rights being violated.
- [00:30]
Lee McGowan
Hello, and welcome to the Politics Girl PO podcast. I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it. Well, this podcast was scheduled for last week after the no Kings protests were a wild success, but before Donald Trump and his administration of incompetence had bombed Iran. Our wannabe king is making terrible decisions, and people don't like it. From the ICE raids to the lack of due process to the hideous and harmful budget bill, and now to the disruption of the world order. We saw Trump's poorly attended birthday parade, but the administration tried to tell us it was a rousing success, just like they are trying to tell us they completely obliterated Iran's nuclear power when the experts are pretty sure Iran moved all of their stuff. The point is, the Trump administration is doing great damage, but their story they're trying to sell us is that they're not. That they are wildly successful, wildly popular, and everything is going well, but everything is not going well. People are unhappy, and we have to keep fighting back. At the end of the day, it's going to come down to the will and work of the people to stop this man before he becomes unstoppable, to do what we need to do in groups with collaborators, with the teams and organizations working together to defeat this rising tide of authoritarianism. Today, we are going to talk with the president of one of the most effective groups doing this work, Deborah Archer of the aclu. I had the pleasure of meeting Deborah this spring while she was on her book tour for her new book, Dividing Lines. And I was so impressed with her passion for change, her knowledge of history, and her ability to spot the patterns that cause our problems. The aclu, of course, stands for the American Civil Liberties Union, who have been standing up for civil rights and freedoms for over a century. From free speech to racial justice, reproductive freedom to LGBTQ rights, the ACLU have been on the front lines fighting for fairness and equality. Since Inauguration Day, the ACLU have launched 123 legal actions targeting some of this administration's most aggressive attacks on our rights, including challenging Trump's misuse of the Alien Enemies act, his threats to birthright citizenship, and the heinous policies targeting the transgender community. So, without further ado, please welcome my guest NYU law professor, author, and president of the aclu, Deborah Archer. Welcome, Deborah.
- [02:42]
Deborah Archer
Thank you for having me.
- [02:44]
Lee McGowan
Well, thank you for coming. I was so impressed when I met you at one of your book parties here in la. Not just by your book, which of course really speaks to the underlying infrastructure, both literally and figuratively, that keep us divided, but kind of your calm presence in this face of injustice, I kind of thought, wow, is the ACLU ever lucky to have you as the President at this moment.
- [03:05]
Deborah Archer
Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm honored to be the President at this moment.
- [03:09]
Lee McGowan
Well, that's good, because a lot of us want to run screaming from this moment. So I'm glad to hear that you're there. Listen, so people understand. The ACLU was created in the years following World War I, when America was just terrified that the communist revolution that had taken over Russia was going to come over here. And they started making some pretty bad choices. Historically, we had what were called the Palmer Raids that took place from 1919 to 1920, when America's Attorney General, A.G. palmer, began rounding up and deporting people that he deemed as radicals. And this is thousands of people who were arrested without warrants or constitutional protections. And they were treated terribly, and they were held in these horrible conditions. And as the ACLU points out on their literature, they, as is often the case when fear outweighs rational debate, it is civil liberties that pay the price. And yet here we are again, right, like all these years later, and we are essentially watching the same thing happen. Do you see history repeating itself or at least rhyming with these ICE roundups that we're seeing around the country today?
- [04:13]
Deborah Archer
The trajectory that you point out is something that does repeat throughout history. The Palmer Raids that you speak about, we saw this happen after 9, 11. We have a government that often will play into fear to scapegoat certain groups and then sacrifice that group's civil rights and civil liberties in the name of safety? We see it in policing over and over again, and certainly seeing it play out in the current immigration raids that we're seeing. Donald Trump, when he was running, had made promises about engaging in mass deportations and what he was going to do around immigration. And we knew from the very beginning that the promises that he was making would be difficult or impossible to do without violating the Constitution or violating federal laws. And so that is the predicament that we see ourselves in, as this pattern of fear mongering and then violation of constitutional rights plays out again.
- [05:06]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, I was reading the ACLU websites, many of them And I got to myself, to the Texas one, and it said on the top of the page, trump's expanded domestic military use should worry us all. And I. I was like, yeah, of course it should. You know, like, we have masked men on the streets without IDs, without Warran, just essentially kidnapping people. And it is completely against any type of free society that America is supposed to be. I just think that, like, that on its own, we should just sit with that and appreciate where we are with that, because it really should be unacceptable to everybody.
- [05:39]
Deborah Archer
It should be unacceptable to everyone. It certainly runs counter to our Constitution and our laws, but it runs counter to who we say we are as a country. It runs counter to the values that we proclaim to hold so dear. And we're focusing in our conversation and a lot of the conversations around the country on immigrants rights, but we're seeing that this administration is tearing at the foundation of our democracy in so many ways, striking at the pillars of a free society, right? Focusing on challenging due process and the rule of law, trampling on rights, trying to bring power centers underneath his thumb, and also really targeting vulnerable communities. And we see all of that in immigration. People don't often recognize that regardless of a person's immigration status, everyone is entitled and granted certain rights and protections. The right to due process, the right to engage legal representation to support you through that due process, the right against unreasonable search and seizure, the right not to be arrested or detained without a valid reason, First Amendment rights. And so in this deportation, this militarization of immigration efforts, we're seeing violations of all those rights, and we are seeing a weaponization of our government against its own citizens, against immigrants who are parts of our communities in ways that should trouble all of us. Because it's a slippery slope, right? It's one step at a time towards more and more people's rights being violated. More and more rights being violated.
- [07:14]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. Because if you can take the due process rights from someone you say is undocumented, you can take the due process rights from anyone. Because who is it to say that you come and you throw me into a van and I say, well, I'm an American citizen. And they're like, prove it. But I can't get my passport. I don't get due process. I can't see a judge. So then what happens to me? I'm gone. Right? Like, if you lose due process from one group, you've taken it from all groups. And I always think that the common argument that you hear all the time for undocumented immigrants is why don't they just come here legally? Right. As if the legal way is easy. I'm an immigrant myself, and I can tell you that finding a legal way to stay in this country after I finish school was very difficult, and it was expensive, and it was, honestly incredibly complicated. And I spoke this language, and I was educated. I had everything going for me. Even after I married an American, there were so many hoops to jump through, and then I had to do it again just to become a citizen. And that's tests and biometrics and lawyers. It is simply not conceivable for everyone to do it that way. And there just aren't that many ways to actually do immigration legally. We need more options. We need to make it easier, we need to make it less expensive. We need these immigrants in our society to keep us running. This concept that anyone can just get a green card or a visa is completely incorrect.
- [08:31]
Deborah Archer
That's right. And if someone with all the privileges that you have that you lay out had a difficult time navigating our system because it is expensive, because it is time consuming, because it is overly complicated, then imagine all those folks who don't enjoy all the privileges that you enjoy. And we are focused often in the public debate on undocumented immigrants. But the Trump administration's policies are. Are challenging the presence of undocumented immigrants, but also those who are documented, those who are following the process. We hear stories of people being arrested and taken into custody at their immigration appointments when they show up to court to do what they're supposed to do as they navigate our process. Our immigration system has been broken for decades, for decades, and is in need of repair. But the fact that it is broken and desperately in need of repairs, desperately in need of more pathways for people to become part of our community and to enjoy all the rights that living in this country brings, it does not mean that we can dispense with all of the rules and requirements that come with it. It cannot mean that we do what we're seeing. Where the president is weaponizing his executive authority, he's willing to go to extremes, really, to strip immigrants of their rights along with any other communities that don't conform to his agenda. And so we should be scared. If government is using immigration enforcement as a censorship tool, know that that is going to bleed into other areas. And we're seeing that. We're seeing other areas where government is using and abusing its executive authority to push censorship, to deny due process, to take away rights and protections.
- [10:15]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. And again, we really need to Remind people that that will only bleed over to everybody else. You start with one group by scapegoating one group, it always ends up in someone else's backyard. So don't think you're free from this. I mean, I always think about, you know, if you want more people to do immigration legally, we need to do things like increase the caps, clear the backlogs of the court, spend money on lawyers and judges and immigration officials, not spend hundreds of billions of dollars on more ICE agents, right, to, like, end up in child daycares and, you know, high schools and this kind of thing. It is not just difficult to immigrate to America legally. Sometimes it's almost impossible. And one of the things you talk about on your website is this idea that people have chosen to be undocumented by choice, that they have just ignored legal pathways because they don't care when the truth is sometimes people are waiting for years for a visa, and that is just not realistic to how their life is going. They come here because they have no other place to go. They often come with plans to fix their status later, only to realize that if they go to try and do it legally, they're going to be deported. So looking at the numbers, it looks like at least one in five undocumented people in this country alone are dreamers, which is that group of Americans brought here as babies or children by no fault of their own. They had no choice. They came with their parents. They've been raised in the US they are often unaware of their own legal status until they're older. And we were supposed to have a pathway to citizenship for them. This is like, you know, at least 11 million people, and they were doing it legally. They did sign the list to be dreamers, and now that pathway is being closed to them, and they're being treated like they're criminals when they never broke any laws. And I just think that's so distasteful and shameful.
- [11:59]
Deborah Archer
Spot on. It is, I think, not realistic to think that so many people desire to live in the shadows. Right? The. The lives of undocumented folks in this country is not easy. They're constantly living in fear, looking around the corner, unable to access economic opportunity to support themselves. And not a lot of people would choose to live in those conditions. And a lot of folks also come here because they are desperate. The conditions in their home countries are so atrocious that they really are willing to take any risks that they can find safety for themselves and for their families. And so we do have to find a way as a country to be more humane to those who are coming out of fear and desperation and to circle it back to the point that you made as you were starting to speak. It's important for us to remember that when we fight, when an organization like the aclu, when individuals stand up and fight for immigrants, for undocumented immigrants, for those who are here legally are still being caught up in our system, our fight for them is really for the. A fight for ourselves as well. Protecting their rights is about protecting our rights because it can be such a slippery slope. But I think we have to challenge all of these false and harmful and dehumanizing narratives that we have around immigrants that's driving so much of our policy and driving actions at the executive and state level right now. It's not just the federal level that we see these harmful immigration policies and practices. We're seeing them start to pop up and proliferate around the country, seeing states kind of step in and say that they can also engage in enforcing federal immigration law. And during the Biden administration, the federal government itself was fighting these attempts at states to kind of jump in and enforce federal immigration law. But with the Trump administration, they've dropped all those challenges. And so in Texas and Florida, in Idaho, we're seeing states come in and try to do some of the harmful things that we see at the federal government level.
- [14:04]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. Now we. People might remember Governor Abbott and Joe Biden's administration going head to head because Texas doesn't have control of their own borders. It's a federal job and they took control of it themselves. I think it's kind of clear that a lot of this anti immigration sentiment is this fear of demographic change, that the country is becoming less white, less Anglo Saxon. Right. Fox News and right wing media have been pushing the idea of the great replacement theory for a long time. And it's this idea that immigration itself is undermining the white political and cultural power in America, which is why we hear terms like invasion or why we describe immigrants themselves in kind of a dehumanizing way, like calling them vermin, jacking up the fear, making immigrants the enemy. Because when you make someone the enemy, then you can justify doing whatever you want to them because they're not really human. Right. You can separate them from their children, you can keep them in these terrible conditions. You can send them to foreign prisons never to be heard from again. And ironically, by dehumanizing immigrants, I feel like Americans are actually turning their own humanity off. And that is something that we should really be Very concerned about. Because, you know, like, it's so much mis and disinformation, this idea that immigrants are taking our resources. That couldn't be further from the truth. Statistics show us that immigrants make up about 18% of our workforce, contribute more than $3 trillion to the GDP, pay more than $500 billion in taxes a year, can't take out of the system that they pay into. It is immigrants that more often than not fill out the industries that have labor shortages, like agriculture or construction or elder care. In health care, it's immigrants who make up a huge share of our doctors, our nurses, our home health aides. It's immigrants that keep our systems running. All of these people that were considered essential workers during the pandemic, so many of them were immigrants. And as the US Population. Population keeps getting older, we're not having as many kids. I mean, realistically, we are going to need to import people if we're going to meet the basic workforce needs, sustain economic growth. Now, of course, there are people that are like, yeah, that's why we're going to force women to have babies. Right. So you have more workers and more soldiers. Right. But really we have the solution without forcing women to have babies against their will. And it's the immigrant populations that are ready and willing to come and work here to do the jobs without stealing women's autonomy, which, of course, is something else the ACLU fights against.
- [16:29]
Deborah Archer
Yeah, I love the way that you're weaving together so many of the narratives and challenges that people have tried to separate to show that what we're seeing in different spheres is connected. It is a part of a common goal. At the end of the day, really, so much of what we're seeing is a response to a country that is more diverse than it has ever been and is increasingly growing in its diversity. We're seeing that in immigration. But it's also a narrative that's driving these challenges to diversity, diversity, equity, and inclusion. Work that clamp down on racial justice initiatives. You can see it reflected in immigration because of who we're focusing on, the countries we were banning immigrants from, the countries where we are targeting folks for deportation. And I think it's important that you've highlighted the language because we need to pay close attention to the language that we're hearing at the federal government. Too many people dismiss it and say, yeah, it's inappropriate, but I'm just going to ignore it and put it aside. But it's all for a purpose. You call people animals for a purpose, to dehumanize them. You say that there is an invasion for a purpose, to get people to be scared and to feel okay. When you bring federal troops into our communities, you want to say that it's chaos in cities and communities, that they're out of control, that it is a hotbed of crime and dysfunction so that people feel comfortable and feel that you're justified when you clamp down on those cities and you suspend their rights and you bring the military into those communities. So we cannot at all ignore the language and just push it aside because it is for a purpose. It's laying a foundation. It is creating the groundwork. And then you said something else. I do want to highlight the crisis that we're seeing in so many industries because of this illegal block on immigration. We are hearing about hospitals that don't have the doctors that they need. We're having crisis in higher education because faculty aren't able to come and teach. So it is not just the fields that people traditionally, and sometimes stereotypically have linked with immigration. It is across the board. Immigrants are an important part of the fabric of our communities. They're important part of our economy, and we are suffering the consequences of administration's targeting of immigrants.
- [19:00]
Lee McGowan
So my dog, Chips, turned 10 this May. He's getting older now, and it makes me a bit nervous. I want to make sure I'm taking the absolute best care of him I possibly can, so it really matters what he eats. Chips has always been a picky eater, and we accept that. But it's also one of the reasons I'm so crazy about Sundays for dogs. Chips goes in and out on foods, but he has a sensitive tummy. So even when I tried all the handmade from scratch dog food foods, he would like it for a couple of days, but then he would reject it. Or I would buy these really expensive canned dog foods that are supposed to be the best, and we'd end up going through five poop bags on a walk. It just didn't sit well with his tummy. Needless to say, over the years, I have wasted a lot of time and a lot of money trying to find something Chips would both eat and tolerate. Which is why Sundaes for Dogs is so terrific. Sundaes is a fresh, healthy dog food that's easy to store and serve. So even if I put it out and he refuses to eat it, it I can leave it, or I can put it back in the bag and try again an hour later, I don't just waste the entire serving anymore. I try to keep an extra bag in my office now because if Chips isn't hungry for breakfast, I will wait until he needs something midday and he comes to me and I'll just pour it out and serve. And unlike other fresh dog food, Sundays doesn't require refrigeration or preparation because of their air drying process. So you can literally just have it when you need it, travel with it if you want. Plus sundaes is delivered right to your home home so you never have to worry about running out of dog food again. And if your dog doesn't like it, you can cancel or pause your subscription anytime with their 14 day money back guarantee. So why not give Sundays for dogs a try? Get 40% off your first order of Sundays by going to sundays4dogs.com politicsgirl or using the code politicsgirl at checkout that's sundays4dogs.com politicsGirl and use the code politicsgirl at checkout for 40% off. Off. Trust me, you will not be disappointed. Everyone knows you have to wear sunscreen in the summer, but what if your sunscreen can do more than block UV rays? That's what the scientists at Oneskin wondered. So they made a whole family of mineral sunscreens to target UV rays, free radicals and cellular aging. The best part? Unlike other mineral SPFs, it's not heavy or chalky, but feels like skincare. Lightweight, breathable, deeply hydrated. Oneskin was founded in 2016 by an all woman team of scientists with PhDs in skin regeneration, stem cell biology, immunology and bioinformatics. After testing the success of more than 900 so called anti aging peptides, they developed the OS1 peptide, the first ingredient to reverse skin's biological age by reducing the accumulation of sentient cells, the key driver of skin aging. Right in time for the summer, they have introduced their award winning OS1 face SPF in two new deeper tints. Formulated with a non nano zinc oxide, OneSkin's patented OS1 peptide and potent antioxidants that scavenge free radicals four times better than other so called anti aging SPFs. This is the sunscreen you're going to want to be wearing all summer long. Oneskin is also launching an all mineral lip SPF that provides instant hydration and protection with a skin smoothing texture you really have to feel. And just like other one skin sunscreens, it is scientifically proven to decrease key aging biomarkers and increase other markers like elastin production for healthier, more resilient lips. I'm going to have to be buying that one soon. Oneskin is the World's first skin longevity company. By focusing on the cellular aspects of aging, one skin keeps your skin looking and acting younger for longer. Longer. For a limited time, you can try one skin with 15% off by using the code Politics Girl at oneskin co. That's 15% off at oneskin co with the code politicsgirl. And after you purchase, when they ask you how you heard about them, as always, please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Give your skin the scientifically proven gentle care it deserves with one skin. Happy summer.
- [22:57]
Deborah Archer
We are suffering the consequences of this administration's targeting of immigrants, absolutely without a doubt at all.
- [23:04]
Lee McGowan
And we have to keep pushing back on the language, like you said. I mean, I live in LA myself, and this idea that the city is overrun, complete fabrication, total lies. You know, you have to come back and say that over and over again. I would, you know, like I said, I was, you know, perusing through your website, and one of the things that the literature points out is that when the ACLU was created in the 1920s, many of the individual freedoms that, you know, are constitutionally mandated had never actually been tested in the courts, which made them kind of meaningless to ordinary Americans. But since that time, the principles of individual freedoms and the protections we have against arbitrary government action, the freedom of religion, the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the right to due process, equal protection under the law, our privacy, all these things we now take for granted have been codified into our laws with their protections being wildly enforced. Which is why I think it's so sickening to see these advancements in civil rights and social justice, which are really some of the most significant developments in American history, being reversed right now, being ripped away from us right now? How does it feel as the president of an organization that has been so integral to advancing this progress, to see.
- [24:14]
Deborah Archer
This reversal, ultimately, it is absolutely heartbreaking. As you have said, the ACLU for over 105 years has focused on protecting fundamental civil rights and civil liberties for individuals. We like to say that we're fighting for an America where we the people means everyone. And for me, what helps put the work of the ACLU in context is I believe that we are fighting to bridge the gap between the America that's promised and all of the beautiful language in our Constitution and our federal laws and the America that is, because the promises that we make are not the realities for so many communities. And we, as an organization, are fighting to make sure that everybody has access to fundamental civil rights and civil liberties and can enjoy those Even when their beliefs are controversial or disfavored by those who are in power or have authority. And part of that work has been building, for lack of a better word, an infrastructure of civil rights and civil liberties. We all know that it's not enough for us to have laws that say you have these rights, laws that say you should have acted, access to opportunity and all the tools to live with equality and joy. We have to have an infrastructure that enforces those laws, that helps give meaning to those laws. And what we're seeing this administration do is tear down everything that makes it possible for us to do the work to protect civil rights and civil liberties for individual communities to stand up for their own rights, for them to stand up for their neighbors. People say it's a tragedy when they see people losing their jobs in the Department of Justice and the shuttering of the Civil Rights Division with the Department of Justice. And it absolutely is. But it's also a tragedy for civil rights enforcement because of all the work that the Department of Justice and the Civil Rights division within the Department of Justice did to protect civil rights and civil liberties, the work that the Department of Education did to make sure that low income kids had access to educational opportunity, that we were rooting out discrimination in harassment based on race and gender and religion within our public schools to ensure that kids with disabilities and special education needs had access to those resources. So I've been doing civil rights work for 30 years, and it's heartbreaking because I think I've done some of the work to help build this infrastructure of civil rights. But it's also heartbreaking because the work is so much harder today than it has been in a really long time because of this destruction of the foundation. And so it is. It is a challenging time. It's a heartbreaking time. But we are really doing our best and everything that we can to move forward. We're not going to give up. We started on day one, and we're going to be here on the last day doing everything we can to protect civil rights and civil liberties.
- [27:08]
Lee McGowan
And if people don't know. The ACLU is the nation's largest public interest law firm. It's fully staffed in 50 states. You have more than 1.7 million members, 100 ACLU staff attorneys, over 2,000 volunteer attorneys, and you're taking over 2,000 cases a year. This is really important work you're doing in this moment.
- [27:28]
Deborah Archer
I think the ACLU is showing up and doing what we were built to do, leaning to everything that makes up this organization. We have litigation docket of 123 legal actions and counting that we have filed since January. And we're doing everything that we can to challenge the ways that this administration is, as I said before, tearing at the foundation of our democracy, challenging things that seem so fundamental to a free society. Free speech, due process, rule of law, our ability to create a multiracial democracy. We're trying to protect the power centers that are being challenged. Media, universities, lawyers. You know, the administration has imposed sanctions against private law firms and targeting lawyers who work on issues that he feels are opposed to him, his values, or he perceives people to be his enemies. He's detained, as we've talked about, and deported individuals without due process. He's trying to gut universities and nonprofits and federally funded media outlets like NPR and PBS because they say and do things he disagrees with. And then they're trying to intimidate people, which is an insult to First Amendment and our entire system of checks and balances. And these are attacks that we haven't seen at this level before, but it certainly doesn't mean that we didn't see them coming. Every attack is straight out of the Project 2025 playbook. There are things that Donald Trump promised to do as a candidate. It is things that we've seen in other authoritarian regimes. And so the aclu, beginning last year, was combing through all of these things and preparing. And we had a plan how we could go into courts to defeat, to hold the line, to dilute, to delay. But we're also working outside of the courtroom because we have to as a country, not just the ACLU or other organizations engaged in this work, continue to apply public pressure wherever and whenever we can, and to also work with state and local and also other federal officials to try to push back against this destruction of who we are. Resistance this time around might look a little different, maybe more local, not as much in the courts. It may be in different spheres that we didn't think about, but we have to resist. And we are working as an organization with partners at many, many levels to do just that.
- [29:58]
Lee McGowan
I think one of the biggest rollbacks of civil and human rights happening right now feels like the attack on the trans community. I know the ACLU has been working overtime to fight for transgender care and transgender rights, but sadly, the Supreme Court just handed down a decision that Tennessee's law banning gender affirming healthcare can remain in effect, which is obviously a huge loss and threat to the transgender youth across this country. But I know you guys aren't just Gonna throw up your hands and say, well, that's it. You know, we give up because of this decision. So what's next?
- [30:29]
Deborah Archer
Yeah. Before I say what's next, just wanna start with what you started with. This is one of the biggest challenges to civil rights that we are facing. My colleagues at the ACLU who do this work and who live these experiences often say that trans people have always existed and they will always exist. And all of these efforts that we're seeing is not going to change that fact. You're not going to erase trans folks from our communities. It will drive these folks out of public life. And I think that's part of the intention. It's going to cause great risk to the health and happiness of children who are really the most vulnerable. So many of these families are literally struggling every day just to keep their children alive. And we now have a Supreme Court decision that is going to make it exponentially harder for those families and their doctors and providers to care for them. We have 25 states now that have enacted these categorical bans on gender affirming medical care. So over 100,000 transgender people under 18 now live in a state where there is a ban on their health care. And the Supreme Court has said that that's okay, but of course we're going to keep on fighting. We unfortunately don't win every case that we bring, and that has never stopped us from fighting for what we believe and know to be the right thing. I said earlier to you that one of the ways that we frame the work is saying that we're fighting for America, where we the people means all of us, and we the people means all people. There is no transgender exception to United States Constitution. And so we're going to continue with everything that we have to fight discrimination and all of these efforts to deny transgender people equal justice under the law. And this court decision, which is heartbreaking and so disappointing and really, really harmful to a broad community of people, still leaves open other opportunities and avenues for advocacy. And we're going to continue to push with all of those tools that we still have left.
- [32:37]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, absolutely. And we can't. We have to do that out here, too. Even if we're not lawyers, even if we're not with the ACLU. I mean, I was listening to a PhD psychologist saying that this Supreme Court case essentially tells trans youth that their pain is irrelevant and that their personhood is legally debatable. And she said, listen, this isn't gonna stop trans kids from existing. It's just gonna make their lives and their family's lives that much harder that at the end of the day, what the Supreme Court has done is okayed state sanctioned harm. Right. They've cloaked it in neutral language, but it's, you know, they've said it's about protecting children, but that's not at all what it is, because we have to remind people that fighting for this kind of care is entirely on the correct side of the issue. Gender affirming care has been supported by every major medical and psychological association because the evidence proves it saves lives. Denying care is what leads to depression and anxiety and suicidal thoughts and actions. So we are actually killing these children as a way to score political points for a political party. And I find it not only detrimental, obviously, to all the families that will suffer, but to our general humanity. And like you said, it opens the door to, like, who else isn't worthy of full rights in our society?
- [33:52]
Deborah Archer
Transgender youth who are affirmed in their gender by their families and who are able to get the care and support they need, do better in school, they feel safer in their communities, they're able to establish healthy relationships with their parents and their peers. They're better equipped to plan for their future, and they live longer. Right. And in contrast, denying them the support increases the likelihood that they're going to drop out of school. It increases their risk for substance use, it worsens symptoms of depression and anxiety, and as I said, gravely increases their risk for suicide. And so families and their doctors, along with their children, should be trusted to make private medical decisions, not politicians. It is in the strain of challenges to bodily autonomy that we see in so many other areas of life.
- [34:43]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, it's why abortion care, as I've always said it, should be framed in the scope of bodily autonomy. Just like end of life care, just like trans care. It's all about who belongs to who. I belong to my own body. I make decisions over my own body. Even if I'm dead, you can't use my organs without my permission. So why is it that living people, whether they have, you know, terminal diseases or they are trans person or they want an abortion, have to ask the state for permission? That makes no sense at all.
- [35:09]
Deborah Archer
So many other conversations were very much focused on parental rights. Rights, but not here. Every family should have the freedom to love and support their child, transgender or not. And we're taking that ability away from some parents. We're certainly creating a landscape where there will be justice by geography. And depending on which state you live in, you will be able to enjoy a full range of constitutional rights. Or you may not. You will be able to choose when and if you are a parent, or you may not. You may be able to to choose what kind of medical care your child receives, whether your child's going to receive the medical care that they desperately need, or whether they won't be able to. And that alone is also an untenable situation that this Supreme Court decision has just worsened.
- [35:55]
Lee McGowan
Absolutely. I mean, this kind of concept of justice geography, we can't have that. And you can see also that this current administration, there's a reason they're sending the Marines into Los Angeles. They're trying to make sure that, that even the geography might not matter with their will. If they want to take control, they will take control even if you are a blue state, federalism be damned. Now, I know we have talked about the ACLU because of course, of all the amazing work you're doing and your team is doing, and we are incredibly grateful for all of that. But before you leave, I also just want to talk about your new book. Because as a civil rights lawyer, this book looks at our nation's transportation system and how it it falls so deeply into the civil rights lane. No pun intended. Right. So please tell us about dividing lines, why you wrote it, and why you thought it was important that people understood it. Are you one of those people that needs complete darkness to sleep but your blinds aren't doing the job they allow in light around the edges or it's never quite dark enough in your room. Do you find yourself in 2025 with blinds from 2005? Well, there is a better way to buy blinds, shade blades, shutters and drapery and it's called three Day Blinds. Three Day Blinds are the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the U.S. three day blinds have local professionally trained design consultants who have an average of 10 plus years experience that provide expert guidance on the right blinds for you in the comfort of your home. Just set up an appointment and you will get a free no obligation quote the same day. If you're not very handy or you enjoy DIY projects, but you know that measuring and installing blind blinds can be a challenge. Then let the Expert team at 3 Day Blinds handle the heavy lifting they design, measure and install. So you can just sit back, relax and leave it to the pros, check out three Day Blinds on Instagram. You can see that they've got thousands of options that fit any budget and style with actual samples. So you won't have to just be guessing about what your blinds will look like. And three day blinds have been in business for over 45 years helping over 2 million people get the window treatments of their dreams. So you know they are a brand you can trust right now. Get quality window treatments that fit your budget with three day blinds. Head to three day blinds.com politicsgirl for their buy one get one 50% off custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery for a free no charge, no obligation consultation. Just head to 3dayblinds.com politicsgirl one last time that is buy one get one 50% off when you head to the number three 3D a Y blinds.com politicsgirl deleteme makes it easy, quick and safe to remove your personal data online at a time where surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. We know what the world is like and ultimately our privacy is worth protecting. So when you sign up for DeleteMe, they do the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from these data broker websites. You tell them exactly what information information you want deleted and their experts go from there. Then DeleteMe sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing you where they found what and what they removed. And Delete Me isn't just a one time service. They are always working, constantly monitoring and removing your personal information, the stuff you don't want out there. Clearly someone like me with a super active online presence is harassed constantly online. But online privacy is super important for everyone. You don't need to be like me to worry about identity theft or doxing because people are crazy and the world's gone mad. Which makes me so glad that companies like Delete Me are out here offering help. So take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners today. Get 20% off your delete Me plan by texting Politics Girl to 64,000. The only way to get 20% off is to text Politics Girl to 64,000. That's Politics Girl to 64000 message and data rates may apply. Please tell us about dividing lines, why you wrote it, and why you thought it was important that people understood it.
- [39:51]
Deborah Archer
Yeah, and I think it fits into the broader themes that we've been having a conversation about today because we have an administration that is going to great lengths to shut down conversations about racial injustice to limit the tools that we have to fight for racial equity, trying to take steps to erase our racist history and stop conversations about our racist reality. And so my book I think is pushing us to think about the Role that transportation infrastructure has played and continues to play in locking in racial inequality. Transportation in America is a bit of a paradox. We often think of roads and highways and public transit as symbols of progress and connection, and they really are. But the story that I tell in dividing lines Is about how these same systems have also been used as tools of exclusion and displacement. So transportation infrastructure, as I'm sure many people know, have long been tools for enforcing white supremacy. White supremacy, in many ways, is about place on many levels. And what better way to keep people in their place socially than to lock them into their place physically and limit where they can work and play and worship to show them that their futures are limited. And so, as legal segregation began to crumble during the civil rights movement, Cities across America started turning to infrastructure, to highways, to roads. Public transit systems as a more permanent, more visible way to enforce racial hierarchy. And dividing lines tells some of those stories.
- [41:23]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, I mean, honestly, as you point out that it's like with the success of the civil rights movement and the fall of jim crow in the 60s, that didn't end segregation. And just because some states, you know, we were segregating state sanctioned segregation wasn't legal, didn't mean that racism wasn't alive and well in other areas. And we can't really repair or rebuild things Unless we consider how and why we built them like that in the first place. And I think that's kind of fascinating. Like you write in the book about how government officials across the country, not just in the south, turned transportation infrastructure into a legal way to keep us divided, to keep Americans divided from one another. Would you tell me a couple of the stories that you had? Because I was floored when you were talking the book party I was at about how certain streets would be deemed, you know, a one way street. They would say, oh, well, this is just gonna be a one way street now. But it would actually stop black people from being able to drive through white neighborhoods. The white people could drive through black neighborhoods if they wanted to, but it couldn't go the other way. Or how partitions were put up on main streets to stop black people getting to certain stores or certain, you know, using specific parks, how they stopped bus. Bus stops from going into certain malls because they knew that that bus route came from the black area. These kind of choices that were set up to keep us apart Also affected everyone in this country.
- [42:45]
Deborah Archer
That's right. And still affects everyone in this country. You just were talking about how racism never went away. And that's true. Right. Part of the Power of racism is in its ability to adapt and evolve. So dividing lines tells a story of how racism survived the fall of Jim Crow by adapting and evolving. So one example was with our interstate highway system. And our interstate highway act was passed just a few years after the decision in Brown vs Board of Education and Brown vs Board of Education, which held that segregation in public schools was unconstitutional and then signaled the fall of Jim Crow more broadly, triggered massive resistance, what we called massive resistance in communities around the country. And they took and co opted our interstate highway system to reinforce segregation. And one of the stories I tell in the book is about Birmingham, Alabama. And during this time, Birmingham was known as bombingham because they used one of the oldest tools of segregation. When black folks started to move out of white communities, they resorted to racial violence and were bombing folks houses. And it happened so regularly that they got the name Bombingham. But one of their official tools of segregation were racial zoning laws indicating that black and white people had to live in separate zones and separate neighborhoods. And they were, you know, indicated what street was the dividing line. And as racial zoning laws fell, it was replaced with the interstate highway system. And in Birmingham, i59 and i65 in places mirror the exact boundaries that used to be the racial zoning boundaries. Similar things happened in Atlanta, where i20 was built on the former racial zoning boundaries. And not only did those highways destroy vibrant black communities, taking away homes, businesses, schools, community institutions, tearing at the social fabric, it also became a physical, real, permanent barrier to the integration that they were fighting. But it just wasn't the highways. We also turn to other tools, street planning. So major roads that were also dividing lines. They were the lines of demarcation between the white neighborhood and the black neighborhood. But city planners also used things like one way streets, dead end roads, and literal segregation walls to physically and socially isolate black communities. And then we have public transit that evolved under a cloud of racism from early, explicit racial discrimination to more subtle dog whistle policies. And the result has been transportation deserts in black communities from disinvestment, and in many white communities, by design, to keep black people out. And you mentioned buses. Buses are the mode of public transportation that is most disfavored. And one of the stories I tell in the book is about a young woman named Cynthia in Buffalo, New York. And Cynthia worked in an upscale mall in a suburb of Buffalo. But the mall prohibited city buses from coming into the parking lot. They allowed tour buses, they allowed commuter buses, but not the city bus. And so to get to work every day, Cynthia had to race across seven lanes of traffic to get into the mall. And one of the days when she was making that run to get to work, she was struck by a truck and killed. And those are the kinds of stories and sacrifices that repeated around the country as we use transportation to block people of color from access to economic opportunity, to limit their abilities to move from one community to another. We have so many policies and physical infrastructure that send the message that some people are wanted and some people aren't, and some people are valued and some people aren't. And some people's lives matter and others do not. Yeah.
- [46:42]
Lee McGowan
And I think if you're someone who looks like me, those kind of messages are good reminders. You know, like, I just drive my car to that mall in Buffalo. It wouldn't even occur to me that they can't get a bus from a certain neighborhood into that mall. That poor Cynthia had to go way across the freeway and then try and run across just to get to her work. And that's why the law and lawyers at places like the ACLU are so essential. Because this kind of behavior in many ways comes down to legal loopholes, the same kind of legal loopholes that Trump's JAG lawyers are currently using to justify having the Marines in la. Like, you're saying they can't just come in and say this highway should go through the black neighborhood, right? They're saying, well, let's just decide where the highway goes based on property value. But property value based on redlining meant it was going to go through the black neighborhood, Right? It's the same result, but just a different justification. You know, like, and, and it's, it's. Everything is connected. We said that earlier. I wrote about redlining and the creation of the suburbs in my book, A Return to Common Sense Sense. And one of the things I said was, do you ever wonder if you look like me, why you don't have more black friends? Or if you look like you, why you don't have more white friends? And I was like, here's the thing. A lot of that was just the result of public policy over the years, deliberately made to increase our division, right? Like, heaven forbid we mix it up and become friends and realize we have a ton in common. And really our problem is over here, right? They don't want that. So they put highways through our neighborhoods, they put red lines, they put one way streets, they made sure the sidewalk stopped at the end of the black neighborhood so you couldn't get to the park. And then you were like arrested for jaywalking. Even though your sidewalk had just ended. These kind of things. Like, you know, you're the president of the aclu, you're a civil rights lawyer and professor, you know, like, and you're writing this book about some of the most basic, like, structures of our country that most of us take for granted.
- [48:29]
Deborah Archer
That's right.
- [48:29]
Lee McGowan
And how much they led to where we are now.
- [48:32]
Deborah Archer
Yeah. I think, you know, the conversation that you started and that we're having around segregation is so important. We are a deeply segregated country. We live separately, we work separately, we worship separately, we play separately. And that has an impact. It has a repercussion. And we want to think it's a result of personal choices, but it is a series of public policy choices, of laws, of discriminatory practices that have gotten us this way and that keep us this way. And I think it's important for all of us who care about civil rights and civil liberties to have conversations about segregation and the way that we lock people out of opportunity. It's important to have a conversation about transportation infrastructure because transportation infrastructure is the foundation of high quality education. It is the infrastructure of a vibrant multiracial democracy. It's the infrastructure of economic opportunity. It's important that we have conversations about segregation because we're not going to get integrated education or high quality education for everyone if we don't challenge segregation. We're not going to get meaningful economic opportunity for everyone if we don't challenge segregation. And so I think in writing this book, I want to push us to think differently about the tools that we have used and continue to use to create inequality. And I think we're at an important point regarding our transportation system. From collapsing highways to crater filled roads, to unreliable and inadequate public transportation, the evidence of the need to rebuild is everywhere. I think the collapse of the key bridge in Maryland is just one stark and tragic example. And so, as we rebuild, we have a choice to make. We can exacerbate past harms by continuing to make choices that benefit some communities at the expense of others. Or we can choose a new path and use this opportunity to truly build America's transportation infrastructure back better for everyone that is going to help us move this country forward in a way that brings us together rather than continue to divide us.
- [50:34]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, absolutely. And you would think transportation, a book on transportation, like, that's a bit dry, but no, it's like it's actually completely built into our system. I mean, everyone in America knows that we have these crumbling roads and bridges and pockmark roads and you're like, why do all these other countries have you know, like high speed bullet trains and you know, these beautiful, you know, airport. And it's like, well, because we've, we haven't invested in our infrastructure, we haven't invested in our people. And there is a deep investment in keeping us divided. And so that is something that we really need to be talking to our friends and family about because it's actually kind of fascinating. I want to thank you so much for joining us today, Deborah. Obviously, the ACLU's goal is to uphold the Constitution, to fight government abuse, to defend individual freedoms, whether that's speech, religion, women's right, due process, the right to privacy, everything. You are a non profit, nonpartisan, no government funding. And since your entire model is based on members dues and grant contributions and private and individual foundations supporting your work, please tell us how we can help. How we can help with the work you're doing at the aclu. If we want to make a donation, become a member, even help volunteering with our legal skills.
- [51:42]
Deborah Archer
Yeah, all those things are ways that we would welcome your support. A donation to please become a member or to engage in supporting the work that we do. And you can do all those things through our website, aclu.org you can give a donation, become a member. You can also join People Power, which is the way that we help connect people to advocacy opportunities in their communities. We also have a wealth of resources on our website that help explain some of the actions that you're seeing around our country that provide you with resources. Know youw Rights trainings, We have explainer videos really trying to make it possible for people to join us in this fight. Because. Because we can't do this alone. We need partners, we need communities to join us. And rights don't protect themselves. They only live when we stand up and fight for them.
- [52:29]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, rights do not protect themselves. You're so right. Well, we really need organizations like yours actively fighting back. I mean, what we're witnessing right now in the country is completely intolerable and quite frankly irredeemable if we don't do something about it. So thank you for being a warrior for us. Thank you for writing this book, thank you for being a civil rights advocate. And we just wish you nothing but good luck and we hope that we can you help you in the future. And please go buy Dividing Lines because it's a heck of a story about how we broke the freaking country while building it.
- [52:57]
Deborah Archer
Yes, please. It's available wherever you buy your books. And I'll also Mention that you can buy dividing lines on the ACLU website and the profits from those sales go to the aclu. Any profits from those books.
- [53:08]
Lee McGowan
Oh, two birds, one stone. That's wonderful. Thank you.
- [53:11]
Deborah Archer
Thank you.
- [53:14]
Lee McGowan
So that was Deborah Archer reminding us that the foundations of our democracy are being torn apart. And it's organizations like the ACLU that are showing up to hold us together. As Deborah says, every day, the work the ACLU is doing is the work they were built to do. But I will say, it cannot just be up to them. We as a country have to continue to apply public pressure and pushback. We might, as Deborah so clearly illustrates in her book, have been divided on purpose. But it's taken time. We came together. We can't just have justice by geography or gender or sexual orientation. We the people means everyone. Everyone gets due process and civil rights. Everyone should have the right to life and liberty in the pursuit of happiness. And we have to continue to work to bridge the gap between the America that was promised and the America that currently is. I want to thank Deborah for joining me today and you for caring enough about democracy to be here now. Now go to the aclu.org and support our rights and our future. And while you're there, buy Deborah's book, knowing that you are directly helping the frontline warriors fight back. Until next week. PG out. Before you go, are you interested in getting this podcast ad free delivered directly to your inbox along with my kitchen rants? Then please consider becoming a member of Politics Girl Premium by going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. If you're already a premium member of this podcast, thank you. And if you're not, please consider becoming a patron of my work. Mainstream news is only giving you a version of billionaire backed propaganda at this point, so if you want real knowledge and information, it is essential that you support those of us out here still bringing it to you. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode, but also@politicsgirl.com and as always, please like and share this podcast so we can grow our audience audience because the more people who have access to this kind of information, the better. As always, thank you so much for your time and support. The Politics Girl podcast is written and performed by me, Lee McGowan and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.