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- [00:00]
Sarah Kate Ellis
What happened with Roe v. Wade, if that was not the largest wake up call ever, that we could see rights taken away and rescinded? That means everything's on the line for everybody.
- [00:25]
Lee McGowan
Hello and welcome to the Politics Girl podcast. Hi, I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it. Well, it's Pride Month, and despite the fact we have an administration actively and openly hostile to our LGBTQ friends and family, we celebrate a month long observance dedicated to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer Pride, commemorating the contributions of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer culture and community. We celebrate Pride in June not because we don't celebrate this community year round, but to honor the 1969 Stonewall uprising in Manhattan, which took place in June. The Stonewall Uprising was seen as a tipping point in the United States for the gay liberation movement. The last Sunday in June was initially celebrated as Gay Pride Day, but the actual day was flexible and major cities across the nation found the day growing to encompass a month long series of events. Today, those celebrations, including Pride parades, picnics, parties, workshops, symposiums and concerts. Despite the bigoted hate you might hear from those who refuse to evolve, which is being led in many ways by our current administration, and LGBTQ Pride Month events attract millions of participants around the world. Along with celebrations, memorials are held during this month for those in the community who have been lost to hate crimes or HIV aids. The purpose of Pride Month is to recognize the impact that LGBTQ individuals have on our history, both locally, nationally and internationally. Today, to launch the month, we will be talking with Sarah Kate Ellis, the President and CEO of glaad, the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, an organization created in 1985 to counter discrimination against LGBTQ individuals in the media and promoting understanding, acceptance and equality. Since their inception, GLAAD has become the world's largest lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer media advocacy organization. And boy, in today's America, do they have their work cut out for them. So without further ado, please welcome my guest, our award winning leader of national media brands, author and president and CEO of glaad, Sarah Kate Ellis. Welcome, Sarah Kate.
- [02:32]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Thanks for having me.
- [02:34]
Lee McGowan
Oh, thanks for coming. And right off the top, Happy Pride.
- [02:37]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Happy Pride. Pride is every day for me. But yes, I love this month specifically.
- [02:43]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, this month is really important. You know, like, I feel like when your organization, when GLAAD was created in the 80s and honestly, really at the height of the AIDS epidemic, our media's portrayal of the LGBTQ community was either kind of non existent or defamatory. Particularly how AIDS related issues were being discussed. And your organization started in New York. And since then the organization has grown and shifted from being kind of a chapter based organization in certain cities like LA and New York and San Francisco, to being nationally based by 1992. So GLAAD was noted as one of the hundred most powerful entities in Hollywood a while back there. And if representation is power, GLAAD has really changed the game for the LGBTQ community. Community. And you've been president of the organization for 10 whole years. So in your words, what is GLAAD's mission? What are you guys out here doing?
- [03:36]
Sarah Kate Ellis
So our job every day is to make sure that LGBTQ people are included in all different conversations, because we're in every family, we're in every community, we're in every workplace. We were founded 40 years ago. This is our 40th anniversary this year. It was during a crisis. And what we did was we were holding actually the New York Post accountable for their coverage of AIDS and hiv. And we started as a watchdog, but we quickly realized that people would say awful things about us because they didn't know who we were. We had no visibility and we needed our stories being told. And so that's why we opened the LA office quickly after that chapter to lobby Hollywood to tell our stories. Because we know, our fundamental belief is that when you know somebody's story, you can't hate them. It's a connector. And so that's the premise that we live on. But what's really interesting is that in my opinion, and I do lead glaad for over 10 years now, the most efficient and effective way to create changes through the media. And that's never been more important than right now. So we've always been a media advocacy organization. When you think about media. When we started 40 years ago, there were four networks and newspapers delivered to your front step. Now there's over 200. There's infinite numbers of ways to get information. And what used to be a one way street, like you would sit down in front of the TV and you'd learn the news. And the news was based on facts. It's now a circular conversation where people share their opinions as facts and they're taken as facts. And so our work has expanded dramatically, as you can imagine, into social media. Anywhere culture is created, GLAAD is to help frame it for LGBTQ people, to make sure it's fair and accurate.
- [05:49]
Lee McGowan
That's hard in today's world because we're not even getting fair and accurate basic facts anymore. You know, like so just to represent an entire community and say, are we giving fair and accurate information? I think about like, if you started in the 80s, that means coming up through the 90s, we were seeing accurate representations in people like Ellen and in Will and Grace and in all the characters that started growing on our TVs where we were like, oh, well, once we see that this is part of our community, it's what the gun people are trying to do with groups like Brady for Gun Violets. They're trying to make sure that safe gun storage and things like locking up your guns are seen in movies and television so you don't just have guns on you willy nilly. So it starts to re figure how people think about giant issues, but through media, which is so important. But now with the amount of lying in the media, it must feel like a real struggle for you to find like, how do you do accurate representation while also acknowledging that we're living in this weird propaganda environment.
- [06:47]
Sarah Kate Ellis
So if you think about media today, everyone is part of media today. Where it used to be four networks or. And then in the 90s there was the explosion of cable and then it was 24 hour TV, but it was still monitored. Now it's completely unmonitored. So the average American spends 12 hours a day on media.
- [07:08]
Lee McGowan
12 hours, is that right?
- [07:09]
Sarah Kate Ellis
That is absolutely right. Think about how you wake up. You wake up with media, you go to sleep with media, you spend even. You know, obviously I'm not doing it right now, but if you're on a zoom call, you're checking your text, you're checking your Instagram, whatever you are doing, you're constantly on media. We live in media now. It has overtaken our lives. And so from my perspective, what we've done at GLAAD and what we're doing right now is we're really curtailing our media against audience segments. I always like to say that we're a data based advocacy organization. We have a deep think tank in GLAAD where we look at thoughts and opinions about the LGBTQ community and then we see how we can influence them by telling real LGBTQ stories, because we know that's the mechanism. So we now have looked at the swath of Americans and we do a study annually called Accelerating Acceptance where we look at acceptance for LGBTQ people by non LGBTQ people in America and what that looks like. We've seen a 10% drop in the past two years. It's still very high. Acceptance is at like 75%, but it was 85%. So we're going the wrong way. And quickly we understand that. And it is. The proliferation of media has. Has seeped into everyone's life, and opinions or thoughts are now seen as facts. And so how do we combat them? Well, you can't just run a Will and Grace anymore. No, that's not going to do it. So what you have to do is you have to segment audiences who are the most movable Americans who are interested. What's really fascinating about the movable middle in America, which is about 86 million people, is that they want to learn about our community. They just don't know where to go. So what's happening is information is being fed to them now that is not accurate. And so how do we get there with our stories, to have conversations with them?
- [09:25]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, that must make a huge difference now, because you can't just put a show on where people have likable characters that they're learning outside the box. You know, Like, I feel like GLAAD was launched at a time when the LGBTQ issues were largely left out of the mainstream, and now you're running the organization when the powers that be are trying to remove them from the mainstream. It's like they were out of it, then they were in it, and now they're trying to remove it again. Like, this feels like such a regressive time, and I think a lot of us thought we were kind of past those days, right? Like, what's going on that we seem to be going backwards. Obviously, it is political in massive ways, but. But where are you at? Because I feel like if you look at your literature, you know, LGBTQ Americans are kind of living in what you call a paradox, right? Like, on one hand, you have this growing population of LGBTQ people, right? We have a society that's far more accepting of life out of a heteronormative box on the whole, right? You know, 7.6% of U.S. adults, you know, identify as part of the community, but 23 + percent of Gen Z identify as part of the community. Right. Like, your stories are essentially more visible. You have films with lots of these characters. Your rights are technically codified, you know, with the Respect for Marriage act being upheld by the supreme court court in 2022, and a super majority of Americans being supportive of a different lifestyle that they were raised with in, say, the 1950s. And yet we have this rising level of hate and extremism against your community and anyone, you know, individuals or corporations who stand up as allies. And I think that's just so shocking. Do you find it shocking. No, you don't. I'm trying to.
- [11:11]
Sarah Kate Ellis
At a level, I find it heartbreaking, less than I think that what LGBTQ people, what women, what people of color are trying to do is realize the American dream, and it's never been realized yet. And so what we're trying to create a society for all people is never been done before. And I think we've had enormous strides, and what we're seeing is. Is more of a slingshot than a backlash. We've had so much visibility, as you mentioned, and it's been incredible, but it's also now creating this moment. We're seeing really large, powerful forces trying to shove us back into closets, trying to take away our marriages, trying to take away our rights as women. I mean, across the board. And this is, to me, you know, I don't think you can be an advocate or an activist if you are not incredibly optimistic. And I think this is an enormous opportunity. This is enormous opportunity to focus and talk to people like you're doing with your podcast all the time, educate them about who we are, and then we'll see great strides again. But it's heartbreaking, this moment in time. It's really heartbreaking to see the trans community be so politicized. One of our biggest problems that we're having around the trans community right now is that only 30% of Americans say they know someone who's transgender. That means 70% of Americans are learning about trans people through media. And the people who are controlling that media story around trans people have politicized them and not humanize them and demonize them. And so we have a really big hill to climb around educating people about trans people, because actually, the education was happening, and it was going pretty well. Really well, actually. Pretty well. And I think that's where we saw this really strong force come out against our community.
- [13:30]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, well, because demonizing a minority group, particularly a tiny minority group, has always worked in every sort of fascist type government. You know, having someone to blame for your issues. This ridiculousness that goes on and on about trans women in sports. You know, it's like eight people. Like, the NAACP was like, it's six people in the entire country. You know, like, what are we talking about? Why are we changing elections based on this? The New Yorker recently wrote an article called Donald Trump's War on Gender is also a war on government, with the premise being that by forcing us into these rigid definitions of sex across federal agencies, this is. There are only two, you know, genders. It is male and female. And that is it. And demonizing anyone that doesn't fit into those completely unscientific, I might add, boxes. Republicans are actually ultimately undermining the administration's ability to run our government efficiently. Right. Like, to protect our public health and safety. And I'm thinking of things like the NIH, right? The NIH just canceled more than $600 million in research grants related to transgender health. And people might say, well, that's fine. I don't really care about transgender people. But the government are also canceled grants because they included a small number of transgender patients. And you go, well, hold on a second. Because, like, I look at a research program that was being done at the University of Nevada, right, and they were analyzing medical records of 200,000 people over the course of 10 years to better understand dementia, right? And of those 200,000 people, 4,000 of them were from the LGBTQ community. And there was a handful of that were trans. I mean, I'm talking, like, less than 5. But the entire grants system was pulled from this study on dementia because of this new rule that there's only male and female. And if you have anyone in the study that doesn't fall into that category, then you no longer get the funding. And I think, like, you don't understand, we're going to lose 10 years of research on dementia because of our misunderstanding of the trans community. Right. Like, that is a perfect example to me of how discrimination hurts everybody a million percent.
- [15:42]
Sarah Kate Ellis
I mean, I think, you know, the LGBTQ community has three big cases that are going to be decided by the Supreme Court this month or into July maybe, if it. If they extend. But the point is, is that they're targeting the LGBTQ community, but they're actually targeting your daughters and your families and your rights as a parent. So it goes far beyond, we are the canary in the coal mine. Is that how they say it? Ye are just the target because it is a way to keep women in their place. It's a way to keep black and brown people in their place. It's a way to keep LGBTQ people. It's a way to keep everybody in their place except one particular species. And I think it is really effective because it is so simplistic. But when you talk to people, people, Americans especially, believe that everyone should have freedom and equality, that schools should lead what kids should read, not a small group of really loud parents. I don't want some other person's parents telling me what my kids can read.
- [16:54]
Lee McGowan
I want the school paper, literally. Sarah, Kate, I'm sure you've been in those meetings with other parents where they're like, my son sometimes has trouble with. And it's like some random. You know, he takes a pill for this. And can you stop the whole school suite? And you're like, lady, this is a private question. Like, we've all been in meetings with other parents where you're like, these people cannot make decisions for my children. And that is who's making decisions right across the country.
- [17:16]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Right. It's wild what's happening. And so I think when we talk about health care for trans people, we're talking about why are we allowing the government and the Supreme Court to play parent and doctor for our community, for anyone, for the. For society at large? And I think what they do is they frame it well, is that they're protecting, but they're actually exposing and it's lifting protections. So we have to do a better job. It's interesting because your show is all about explaining. I feel I'm a lot about framing. We have to frame it better so that people understand what it really means. And that's a little bit more complicated than the simplistic ways that they frame things. Because, yeah, someone's mind will be like, yeah, there's only two genders. Life is a bit binary. And there are two genders that we're fully aware of. And then there is a spec. Like McKinsey used to have a spectrum on sex. Right. And I'm sure they still do. Like, you're either really straight or you're really gay. There is no in between. Really.
- [18:30]
Lee McGowan
No.
- [18:31]
Sarah Kate Ellis
And I know a few really straight people, and I probably consider myself one of the very straight gay people. So I understand it from that perspective. However, does that mean that we all are. Absolutely not. Not even close. Right. Most people can see beauty in both. Most people are attracted to both. Whether you act on it or not is a whole other discussion. But I think that we live in a binary because it controls. It puts people in boxes, and people can be controlled in that way. When we are more expansive and progressive in our view and evolutionary in our view, we're a better society for everyone. For everyone. I mean, you look at where trans girls have been involved in sports, and the sports programs are actually better for all girls. And there's also this. This mindset of scarcity. There's enough to go around for everyone. When we live in a life of abundance, and we think in a life of abundance, then we don't have to worry about anybody stealing or taking or if one has rights, it doesn't mean that you don't have rights or you.
- [19:42]
Lee McGowan
Have less rights or if someone's given rights, like, that's the thing. I think some people are like, if you get the rights I already have, that takes from me. You're like, no, it doesn't take anything from you. You still have your rights. They're just getting the same thing. You have this concept of, like, it's not pie, right? People say that all the time. Like, we're not just giving away. There's. There's not eight pieces of rights. And, like, if you get one, then I don't get one. That's not actually how it works at all. You know, I just think about. You're talking about this idea that binary is appealing to people because it brings control, it brings knowledge. People get very uncomfortable when they're in a gray area, so they want to say it's either this or this. Except we know that intersex people have always existed, right? So that is a simple scientific thing where it's like, well, actually, it's not a binary. It's never been a binary. And what we're saying now is, even if you look at that McKinsey scale, actually it's more like a line, right? Much like the autism line is. Much like a lot of us are on these lines of giftedness or adhd, this kind of thing. There's a line, and we're on a continuum. You know, you can be way on this side, like you said, super straight, or you can be way on this side, super gay. Or you could be someone, you know, in the middle where you're like, yeah, I personally like this kind of person, but I, you know, I register as straight, but, like, this kind of woman. Love them. My husband's always like, there's your type. I'm like, I love her. I love her. You know, like, there's always. You're on a continuum. It's a continuum, right? But then if you start taking rights from certain people, it really does affect everyone. Everyone on that continuum. Because I think about these counter protesters who were just brutalized by the Seattle police last week, standing up against an anti trans Christian group, right, who had come into a gay neighborhood to just be violent and protest people. And 23 people were arrested, but only from the pro trans side. And it was mostly like, there was a lot of straight people there that were just protesting, doing First Amendment right to stand up to protest. And the police just came in and dominated those people. We have 500 anti LGBTQ laws that have been introduced in State legislatures across the country. And that's everything from bans and restrictions targeting drag events, you know, drag story hours, LGBTQ school curriculum, books, book bans, right down to transgender medical care. Right? We have state after state telling us, you can't put a picture up of your. Your, you know, gay spouse or your whatever if you are same sex. We don't want to see that in our classrooms. We have people targeting LGBTQ inclusive stories. We have a rising amount of transgender people actually being killed, like, murdered, just for who they are. And then, of course, we have a Supreme Court, right? We have a Supreme Court with justices like Clarence Thomas just begging someone to bring him a case that he could reverse gay marriage. He has said that, like, bring it to me. Find a reason to bring that case to me. Right? He's already on record saying that decision, much like he said with Roe v. Wade, was decided incorrectly. The Supreme Court has just decided to hear a case that might overturn Colorado's ban against conversion therapy, which is hideous. Right? I feel like it is so painful for not just the LGBTQ community, but every single one of us, because we're ripping rights away that aren't just rights from the LGBTQ community, but it's the right to be who we want to be, read what we want to read, see who we want to see, marry who we want to marry. That belongs to all of us. And once you start taking rights from one person, you're going to ultimately take rights from everybody a million percent.
- [23:14]
Sarah Kate Ellis
I mean, it's as the old saying goes, until we're all free, none of us are free. And I think that where we lose the plot here is that that these bills and these, even if they're proposed, like, I think about 10% of them actually become law of the 500. But the harm is done as soon as they're proposed, right? Because they are targeting isolating LGBTQ people. And that's what this whole thing is about, isolating out LGBTQ people. I want to be really clear that LGBTQ people want the same things that everybody else wants. We want good jobs. We want happy families. If we have kids, we want good kids that are upstanding citizens that contribute to society. We want to work hard. We want to enjoy life. We have the same American shared values. And that's where this value conversation, as if we are not part of the American society and the fabric of America and that we're being of part pushed to the side of it, is a really dangerous one, because when you isolate communities like we're seeing with immigrants, it's only a matter of time. Like, you start with the lowest fighters or who have the least ability, I should say, to fight because they have the smallest share of voice in society. And you just keep moving, moving, moving, moving. I do think that marriage equality is on the line. I know it's on the line. What happened is with Roe v. Wade, if that was not the largest wake up call ever, that we could see rights taken away and rescinded, that means everything's on the line for everybody.
- [25:05]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, for everybody. Like, if you're gonna have a burger fella on the line, then loving's on the line. Inter. Interracial marriage is on the line. You know, our ability to get birth control is on the line. Like, every. Every move we've made forward. And I think people get. I often get very frustrated with that old quote. The arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. I get frustrated with that because I think it implies that that's just gonna happen when really it takes all of us working to bend it. It's not gonna bend on its own. The reason women got the vote, the reason we got gay marriage, the reason workers have rights, the reason we have civil rights, is because people, often the people that were most marginalized, who had, as you were saying, the limited amount of voice and power, worked their hearts out sometimes for 100 years to get something to change. It didn't just bend, it was bent. And I think that's the thing, is that we're in this position now where we're watching a president, you know, ban transgender people from enlisting in the military. But that wouldn't stop there. Right? There's no reason for him to do that. There's no logical reason to do that. But once he's able to do that, then who else does he want to keep out of the military? Right? We're seeing a dramatic rise in a time where we all thought we were past it, of LGBTQ hate. And that's everything from protesting the drag shows to vandalizing pride flags to criminal activity, like bombing healthcare providers and, you know, like we said, actual murder of LGBTQ Americans. So while this administration has doubling down on its attacks against the LGBTQ community, I feel like your organization, glaad, has been standing up to the rhetoric and the policies, and in many ways, you called it a distraction that everything they're doing is a distraction. What did you mean by that? 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- [31:09]
Sarah Kate Ellis
So I think you have to play a long game here.
- [31:13]
Lee McGowan
I wish we would do that more often.
- [31:16]
Sarah Kate Ellis
And I think you have to play a short and a long game, you know, chew gum and walk at the same time. But my focus is over the horizon. How do I move and change public opinion so that we start to have the winds that are back again? We have to respond to everything. We have to reply and we have to hold the line, obviously. But I think that they want us to get in the day to day battles so that we're not playing the long game. So we're not looking over and seeing how do we get full equality in this country? How does everyone matter in this country? How do we achieve full freedom in this country? Because if we're not focused on that and we're fighting about military and we're fighting about trans healthcare and we're fighting about trans and sports and we're fighting about our marriages, those are. I don't want to diminish them at all. They're so important. And we have to fight those fights. But we also really can't get weighed down. We also, I'll be honest, we have people power now, but we have no political power. We have no political power. So we can fight and stand up and speak up, but there's not going to be movement unless we move people with us. And so that's what I'm thinking about. How do we create the army of this next generation?
- [32:45]
Lee McGowan
How do we do that? I mean, that's a really good point. Like, I think about, if you're talking about we have no power, I know you were recently at the World Economic Forum, which I thought was a really great place for you to be, because we're talking about power in a capitalistic world that comes from finances in many way. And I know you were discussing with corporations about things like dei. How did that go as far as power structure?
- [33:05]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Well, here's the thing is that.
- [33:09]
Lee McGowan
I.
- [33:10]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Mean, it's living in two worlds, honestly, because you talk to these powerful people, these CEOs, and they fully understand the power of the growth segments in the United States. So let's talk about DEI for a second. There's two schools of thoughts here. Hold on to dei. The word, the term. I'm talking about it in a term. I say if it's been weaponized now, let's move on, right? And let's find the next. Because that's what happens with the opposition to LGBTQ or growth is that they find a way to take the words that we've been doing to educate and bring people along and weaponize. So when I was talking to all of the CEOs, they realized they cannot grow their business in America, which is nine out of ten times their number one market, because it's a capitalist market and it's the, you know, the largest market in the world, without appealing to LGBTQ people, black and brown people, or women, you name it. Because we are the largest growing segments in the United States. So whether you frame that as DEI or you frame that for what companies really think, which is their opportunity to grow and to attract the best talent, they want the best talent at their company. If you're a woman or if you're an LGBTQ person or if you're both and you don't see a company participating in making the world a better place, you most likely will opt out of that company. They know that. So now it's a matter of how do we manage this political nightmare that's been created? I mean, it's all been created and fabricated and grow our business, attract the best talent, and ultimately be successful. So they're not walking away from dei. I think this is something that the media has really let us down, traditional media has really let us down on. In Pride month, what they are always trying to do is find our corporations pink washing. They're not actually helping us.
- [35:26]
Lee McGowan
Us. I think about, like, companies like Target, right? They're having a really tough time financially right now because they came out firmly against dei. When research shows that DEI helps company, and the majority of people happily and clearly are happy having dei. And you're watching their market share just crumble. And I've seen people all this month, you know, watching what they're putting in their stores now that they're not having Pride displays and things like that, and they're like, this is unbelievable what they have out here, because, you know, first of all, it's insulting. Secondly, it's ugly. Thirdly, like, it feels so unjoyful, right? And the thing is, is that I think what they're forgetting is the statistics are favorable when it comes to sales. You know, like, if you poll the majority of Americans, they have a positive reaction to a store that offers LGBT or Pride merchandise. Like, I think it's 70%. That's a high number. 85% of Americans polled seem to believe that CEOs actually have a responsibility to. To speak up about things that matter to their consumers, that matter to their shareholders. And, like, you're saying, like, if we look at 7.6% of American adult Americans, you know, identify as LGBTQ, but 23% of Gen Z identify as LGBTQ. If you're just looking at it from a strictly capitalistic way, who. What are you doing by ignoring that entire market share? That's just bad capitalism, right? It's not even just bad manners and bad morals. It's bad capitalism. Right? I mean, the right wing does it all the time. Time, right? We see organizations like Hobby Lobby canceling birth Control and not making their stores anything but hostile to the LGBTQ community. We see places like Chick Fil A or we're very well known to be anti lgbtq. But you're like, you're kind of missing out on a huge market share because what you're losing is a huge customer base that would otherwise be there supporting your product.
- [37:15]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Yeah. We call it future proofing. Your business, if you want to grow and you want a future for your company, you have to be inclusive. There is just no way around it. And I think those statistics that you were talking about, we did do this piece of research, this body of research, to understand what actually consumers thought of Pride.
- [37:36]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, I stole those statistics from you.
- [37:38]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Yeah, it's off the charts. Super majority think it's good. Consumers think that you treat your employees better if you have Pride Month. They think that you are. And it's true, typically, because you are more caring. And so it has an overall glow to it when you're inclusive and when you're involved in Pride as a company, in a corporation, that glow has not gone away. And I also just want to say something about Target. Target built their empire over the past two decades on inclusion. It was innovation, being cutting edge, being thoughtful about what's next. And so they've done a complete retrench on that, and they've. I think that brand is a lost brand right now. What used to be cutting edge and thoughtful and leading is now just another box store. They took what was a real brand value and they squashed it. It for no good reason. I mean, obviously, they must have a reason. I don't know.
- [38:47]
Lee McGowan
Their CEO's an idiot. I keep saying that's my reason in coach.
- [38:52]
Sarah Kate Ellis
I could fix this. Yeah, put me in. I can fix this for you guys. And I think that that same time period, that was in 2023, when you saw these, the small group of loud activists, it was very small group. You can count them on your hands. Started to go after the corporates who were supporting Pride that year. They went after about 300 corporates. Only Bud Light and Target moved back. The others and brands, Nike, you would expect. Nike has always been a standup brand, but Cracker Barrel, you know, I mean, a lot of brands that you would never suspect stood their ground and said, no, we operate our business for everyone. It's a very simple line. It's not very confusing. It's not like you're involved in everything else. It's that you're open for business for everyone, Period. End of story, move on. And those Activists did move on. They were just poking the bears to see who they could get. And it was a really poor decision on those two companies.
- [40:02]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. But let me ask you about then, tech companies, because I know you put out something every year called the social Media Safety index, which is, you know, you've done it for five years. It basically indexes how tech companies represent the LGBTQ community or, you know, have safety policies for the LGBTQ community. And you've basically said that this year's index shows that tech companies are intentionally rolling back their safety policies, that they are. You know, you look at six major platforms, which is of course, TikTok, YouTube, X meta of Facebook, Instagram, threads, and using a collection of indicators, you're basically saying these are the range of issues affecting LGBTQ people online. And it seems like you came to the conclusion that these companies, these tech companies were failing to meet the basic standards across most safety metrics, which I might add, you know, with X being of course the worst.
- [40:53]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Yeah. And Twitter used to be the best.
- [40:56]
Lee McGowan
I know.
- [40:57]
Sarah Kate Ellis
So what it's interesting because we started this study several years ago and we were really making progress with these tech companies. I always say you can't move what you don't measure. And so we have these indices for various industries. We have it for entertainment, we have it for TV and streaming, linear and streaming. We have it for studios. So what comes out in theater, wide release. We have it for video games and we have it for social media. And we're expanding into podcasts and whatnot. But looking at how these companies are representing LGBTQ people. But in the case of social media, it's about safety. What policies do they have in place? Because they don't. They, they are self governed, they have no oversight, there's no laws or restrictions like there is in journalism and whatnot, where you have ethics. So we started doing that. And most of these companies had trust and safety councils where they were looking at. Because what happens online turns into in real life, it translates and it transfers. And so we felt that it was really important to look at what was going online. We were doing a really good job together with these companies. And over the past couple of years, between Musk taking on X or Twitter and Mark at Facebook rolling everything back, TikTok was actually leading in this space as well and taking it really seriously. But we're looking at this report because we don't know that we can continue to do it the way that we have been doing it. Because the way that we would do it was one is, do you have the policies in place and let us help you create the policies and shape the policies. Let us have a seat at that table. And we would do that. But then the second piece to it is, are you enforcing these policies on hate speech, on harassment, on bullying? LGBTQ people are disproportionate users and high users of social media and disproportionately bullied on these platforms as well. If you're an LGBTQ person and you know if you post something about who you are, you will get hate speech on that, you will get hit back on that, you will get death threats on that, you will get all these things. So it's, it's just known, actually, it's, it's so sad to see young people just know that they're going to get bullied online. Like, it's not even, I hope I don't. It's, how do I prepare to be bullied online and what do I, how do I respond? So we are rethinking how we approach these platforms because they are so powerful in the conversation and in how especially this next generation that you were talking about are activating their lives on these platforms.
- [43:54]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, I mean, online platforms and social media in general are so important to the younger generations. But for LGBTQ people and anyone who's looking for community of like minded individuals that they might not otherwise come across in readily available groups in real life, it's extremely important to be able to connect with people who are like you online. So we have to make sure that these online communities stay safe. And you said when this year's index came out, and I'm going to quote you to your, you said at a time when real world violence and harassment against LGBTQ people is on the rise, social media companies are profiting from fanning the flames of anti LGBTQ hate instead of ensuring the basic safety of their LGBTQ users. These scores that you're seeing, these terrible scores that people aren't safe, should terrify anyone who wants to create a safer, more inclusive online environment. And like, I think that's exactly true. I mean, it's just we have to be really careful. And it's not. Again, yes, we want to protect our LGBTQ friends and family, but once you, you lay out the lack of protection laws on social media sites, that's not the only people that it's going to harm. I mean, I'm on social media constantly. The amount of death threats I get, rape threats, I get, like anti women sentiment is all over social media. Right? Like, it's everywhere. Whereas, like, once you. You dissipate safety rules, it affects so many people, but especially these young people that are seeking community at a time where they might not be able to find it.
- [45:23]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Yeah, I mean, that's the. That's the real heartbreak is this younger generation. I think the good news is, though, is that we're starting to see other platforms now. They don't. They haven't had the critical mass yet. But if you think of Blue sky and you think of these other platforms that are starting to emerge, and it goes back to what you were saying earlier, we do live in a capitalist society. We can vote with where we click on and click off of. We have to activate that more as a society and a community.
- [45:54]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, it's really essential. It's like, why I can't go on X anymore. And I really spend most of my time on Blue Sky. I'm voting with my clicks, as you're saying. And listen, before you go, because I know we're running out of time, I just want to ask you, because you led a global LGBTQ delegation to meet with Pope Francis to address anti LGBTQ laws and kind of the harmful rhetoric that has always come out of the Catholic Church, and I'd love to know just briefly, how that was received and also how you feel about Pope Leo, because despite the fact that he really seems like the best possible option we could have possibly got, one thing people aren't happy about is that he's not had a long history of being great with the LGBTQ community. So, like, how do you feel about these popes and the Catholic Church in general right now? Because I know America is currently living under this rising Christian nationalism, whether that's Heritage foundation in Project 2025, or even our Supreme Court with the very far right Christian Federalist society. What is GLAAD's sort of sense of that?
- [46:50]
Sarah Kate Ellis
I met with the Pope twice.
- [46:51]
Lee McGowan
This is Francis.
- [46:52]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Francis, yes. Thank you. Not Leo. Not yet. And I was advising him behind the scenes and educating him on, you know, it's illegal in about 63 countries to be LGBTQ, and in some of those countries, punishable by death. At the time, before we started talking, it was 70 countries, and half of them were Catholic. And so I was talking to him about how he could use his access and power to help move those countries along. And he was very receptive. It was when I was with him the first time where I shared that when my wife and I had our kids, we actually left the Catholic Church. I was raised Roman Catholic, but. But I couldn't baptize. I couldn't get married at that time because it wasn't legal at all. But I couldn't baptize my kids. So I went to the Episcopal Church and he put his head down and he said, that's not right. Like, and the church should be open to all. And within a month after meeting with him is when he said that same sex marriages should be blessed. He was just a really special person. And the second time we went, I brought with us four trans folks so that he could sit down and hear their personal stories. And he was visibly moved and connected with these folks. So I think Pope Francis was a really special person because what the Vatican couldn't do in centuries, he did in a decade, which is start to move in the direction of inclusion now. Now I'm really optimistic about Pope Leo because Pope Francis had hand selected him and had worked really closely with him. And I am very hopeful that he will pick up the work that Pope Francis was doing and advance it. And so I'm doing an outreach to him and hopefully we can have a conversation. We'll see how it goes. But at the end of the day, these folks have 2 billion followers. I mean, talk about big social media following. And I think they have such power to lead us in a time where we are in a moral crisis.
- [49:04]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with that. And I really do feel very hopeful about Pope Leo as well. As you're saying we're looking at 2 billion Catholics across the world. This is a huge movement and I think it's really great to have someone with that kind of power who can't be removed from their job, who is willing to stand up for the people that governments like America are currently attacking. So I want to thank you so much for joining us today, Sarah. Kate, I hope people can see from this conversation what an important organization GLAAD is, what you are doing as its leader. You know, you've just had a major history of being just a cornerstone of resilience in times of hate and in times of oppression. So what can we do to help you? Where should we go? Not only just supporting the organization, but also by being good allies.
- [49:49]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Yeah. So thank you for asking that. You can go to glaad.org, which is G L A A D dot org and that you can follow GLAAD on all the socials. Even we're off of X actually it's an evil cesspool.
- [50:02]
Lee McGowan
So that's very smart.
- [50:05]
Sarah Kate Ellis
I think, supporting the work, but coming to find out about the work We've just released some major reports that you quoted. Some of them here. Learn about them, educate about them. We have groups, we have Parents for Progress, which are either parents who are LGBTQ or par of LGBTQ kids that want to stay connected and have community. We have GLAAD ambassadors. So we have a whole host of ways that you can participate with the organization and with our community. I think, first, the thing I always tell allies is oftentimes you're in rooms that we're being talked about that we're not in. And so if you can share a personal story of someone who's LGBTQ in your life life and why we matter and why we should be treated equally and fairly, that goes so far. What you can do as an ally is talk to people in a way that brings them in.
- [51:02]
Lee McGowan
Absolutely. It's, like, why, you know, it's up to white people to solve white supremacy. It's up to men to solve the patriarchy. Like, it. Sometimes it's the people who aren't being targeted. That's not their job, necessarily. It's our job on the outside. But to, like, be standing up in those rooms and being like, actually, that's not true. And I will be the voice for the person that is being marginalized in that room. I think that's essential. I'm so glad that GLAAD is celebrating its 40th anniversary. I'm so glad you've been around during all of this time. I'm sorry. It feels like we're going backwards in time right now. It's pretty pathetic that your community and their rights are more under attack than they have been in years. But I just want you to know that we are here. We are thrilled for Pride. We are here for you, and we will keep moving forward to make sure that, like you said, everyone is included. Everyone has a role, everyone has a place, whether that's someone in the LGBT community or women or a migrant or whatever. Our goal is to create a multicultural, pluralistic, open society that actually we've never had. And so this is an opportunity moment. It is a moment for us to maybe build something better. And this is where we're beginning. In the ashes of what was.
- [52:07]
Sarah Kate Ellis
That's right. Right. Thank you so much for having me. And thanks for doing what you're doing. It's so incredibly essential at this moment in time and couldn't be a better voice to help educate and frame all of what, all of the chaos because the emperor has no clothes. So we just need to stay focused and together.
- [52:28]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. Keep Being that child, calling it out.
- [52:31]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Yeah, totally.
- [52:33]
Lee McGowan
Point and laugh, babies. Point and thank you so much, Sarah Kate.
- [52:38]
Sarah Kate Ellis
Thank you.
- [52:40]
Lee McGowan
So that was Sarah Kate Ellis reminding us that we are playing a long game. That while we should be addressing the immediacy of the rollback of the LGBTQ community's rights, we have to keep our focus on the goal that is yet to be achieved. A society that works for all people with full equality and full freedom. That if the acronym of DEI has been weaponized, let's dump it. We don't abandon diversity, equity and inclusion, but the target that those who don't want those things have put on it. Because at the end of the day, this country, even the most capitalistic parts, work better when we are all represented, all respected, all in the mix. We can't forget that every family, every community, every workplace has a member of the LGBTQ community. And while it might feel like we are currently in a backlash against them, according to. According to Sarah Kate, if we play it right, it might actually be a slingshot where the community currently being pulled back will have the opportunity to shoot even further forward. Something that will only help us all. I want to thank Sarah Kate for joining us today and you for caring enough about your fellow Americans to be here. Now go check out glaad.org and see how you can help such an incredible organization. Until next week. Pg do you want to get this podcast ad free delivered directly to your inbox along with my kitchen rants? Then please consider becoming a member of the Politics Girl premium family by going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. If you're already a premium member of this podcast, then thank you so much for your support. And if you're not a member, please consider being a patron of my work. Mainstream news is only giving you a version of billionaire backed propaganda this point, so if you want real knowledge, it's essential to support those of us out here bringing it to you. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode, but also on politicsgirl.com and as always, please like and share this podcast so we can grow our audience. Because the more people who have access to this kind of information, the better. As always, thank you for your time and support. The Politics Girl podcast is written and performed by me, Lee McGowan, aired in partnership with the Midas Media Network, and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.