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The PoliticsGirl Podcast
Save Canada! A Conversation with Global Affairs Experts Andrea Chalupa & Marcus Kolga
00:58:24
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- [00:00]
Andrea Chalupa
We need Americans to move very quickly and start imagining very quickly. It's not just us, it is the rest of the democratic world. We need you to come back and snap out of this and we need you to do it very, very quickly. It's not just you, it's all of us that are being impacted by.
- [00:28]
Marcus Kolga
Hello.
- [00:29]
Leigh McGowan
And welcome to the Politics Girl Podcast. I'm your host Leigh McGowan. Let's get into it as you may or may not know, I'm Canadian by birth. I moved to America for school in 2000, met and married an American and have been a dual citizen since 2008. So this rising tension between the two countries that I call home is not only shocking and unnecessary, it's extremely personal to me. Along with the ridiculous tariffs meant to cripple the Canadian economy for no discernible reason, one of the newest changes to our country's relationship is the Trump administration proposing Canadians be fingerprinted and registered if they stay in the US over 30 days. This is something that has never happened before as Canadians are a huge part of the American tourism industry and millions of Canadians own property in the US with a fair amount spending their entire winters in states like Arizona and Florida. This drastic decision, along with the trade war and talks of annexing the entire country, are uprooting a centuries long allied relationship. The American President really appears to be switching loyalties from lifelong allies like Canada and the nations of NATO to unite himself with the autocratic nations of the world like Russia and North Korea. It's a distressing change to the world order, which is why we are going to spend today's episode on the importance of Canada and Canada choosing the right leader in their next election. As former guest Andrea Chalupa said, one of the best things we can do to protect American democracy against rising autocracy is to be actively supporting international democracies to make sure they remain stable as America flounders, to strengthen the alternative so it can act as a beacon in the dark. Which is why we need to be paying attention to what's going on with our neighbors in the north. Not only because there is a real threat implied in Donald Trump's 51st state bullshit, but because Canadians could have an election as soon as this spring and one of the leading candidates is a Musk backed Russian supported candidate, much like Trump himself. If that man, Peter Polievra, the leader of the Conservative Party, is allowed to be elected, I think we can consider Canada lost and another world democracy. So this absolutely cannot be allowed to happen. To discuss this I have asked my dear friend Andrea Chalupa and her friend Marcus Kolga to join us today. This will be a crossover episode with Andrea's brilliant podcast, Gaslit Nation. Because Andrea and I are both adamant that people understand how important the Canadian election is to the world order. Andrea, Marcus and I will essentially have a roundtable. Two Canadians, two Americans, and three people who care about protecting the rule of law, democracy as an alternative to corrupt world autocracy. For those of you who don't know, Andraya, she is a Brooklyn based journalist, author and filmmaker. A student of Soviet history at UC Davis and Ukrainian history at the Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute, Andrija's work includes the graphic novel in the Shadow of Stalin Dictatorship, It's Easier Than youn Think, and is a sought after speaker on global affairs, US Politics and democracy. Markus Kolga is a Canadian writer, filmmaker and human rights activist, renowned for his expertise on Russia and Central and Eastern Europe. A regular commentator on Canadian international media, Marcus has played a pivotal role in leading the Canadian campaign for the Magnitsky human rights sanction legislation and has supported similar initiatives in Europe. His expertise and analysis on these topics, as well as the power of modern disinformation, have found him testifying before the Parliaments of the uk, Australia and Canada. He currently serves as a Senior Fellow at the macdonald Laurier Institute Centre for Advancing Canada's Interests Abroad. So without further ado, please welcome my guests, Andrea Chalupa and Marcus Kolga.
- [04:00]
Marcus Kolga
Welcome, my friends. Let's talk about the Great White North.
- [04:04]
Andrea Chalupa
Yeah, lots to talk about, I know.
- [04:06]
Marcus Kolga
Well, let me begin. Marcus, since you're the only one that actually lives in Canada, what's the current mood? I mean, people cannot possibly be happy with what they are seeing and hearing and obviously economically feeling from their southern neighbors. I mean, I'm Canadian, living in the States, and I'm genuinely furious.
- [04:22]
Andrea Chalupa
Yeah. You know, I think that we started off in November after the election hearing Donald Trump, sort of what we sort of assumed to be jokes about the 51st state, you know, back in November, December, we sort of tried to just shrug it off. We were sort of giggling about it. And, you know, after the inauguration, things became quite serious. These threats of economic warfare, which have really translated into psychological warfare, all of this is putting tremendous stress on not just the Canadian government, but the people of Canada. You know, we spent the past, you know, basically century believing that the United States was our closest friend, our closest ally, that the United States always had our back and there was nothing to worry about. All of that changed literally overnight. And you can feel it. It's palpable. Every single conversation that I've had over the past couple of weeks, I was just in McGill yesterday at the University of McGill in Montreal talking about Russian information operations. The conversations there were all about Donald Trump, his tariff war, and what may yet be coming. So everyone's talking about it. Yeah, we're very much feeling it here in Canada.
- [05:36]
Marcus Kolga
Yeah. And if the people who are listening don't understand, Trump is laying out a lot of stuff about Canada, a lot of lies about Canada. Obviously, he's got imperialist tendencies, but he's claiming, you know, that fentanyl is pouring into the US From Canada, which is why he had to do the tariffs originally. That is not happening. He is escalating this giant trade war. The stock market is falling because of his trade war. His economic agenda is clearly reckless, just right across the board. But his geopolitical agenda is quite clearly compromised. Right. Like America is weaker, poorer, and quite frankly, no one should trust us at this point. Andrea, what are your thoughts?
- [06:13]
Unnamed Speaker
Well, I'm Marcus. I know you and I go way back in fighting against Kremlin disinformation and aggression. And obviously, there's been all this documentation out by great investigative journalists like Craig Unger, the bipartisan Senate intelligence report into Trump and Russia, showing that Trump very much is a disinformation weapon of the Kremlin. And the fact that you have Justin Trudeau coming out and saying that Trump wants to annex Canada, he's not mincing words. And then, of course, Trump is going after Greenland. And right now in the United States, we have this big budget showdown which is pumping billions, billions of more dollars into the Pentagon and ICE and immigration at a time when Trump is denying due process right of green card holders, as well as making these threats to invade our neighbors. So, given your long view on the global war between democracy and fascism, driven largely by the terrorist state, the mafia state of Russia, how serious do you see these threats, and what are your thoughts on Canada growing closer to the EU and NATO and strengthening its alliance? There.
- [07:32]
Andrea Chalupa
There's a. There's a clear objective here. This is on the part of Donald Trump. This is not about fentanyl. You know, I looked at the statistics this morning. You know, last year alone, in terms of the amount of fentanyl that was coming into the United States, £21,000 were imported and crossed the border from Mexico into the United States. It's. That's a lot. Compare that. So £21,000 versus £43 coming from Canada. So it's that we're not talking about fentanyl here. If we're talking about trade deficits. You know, there is a small trade deficit that the US has. It's about 35 billion. It's not the 200 billion or more that Donald Trump continues to go on about. And quite frankly, that's basically based on oil. If you take oil and energy out of the equation, then the US A trade surplus with Canada. So let's be clear. It's. This is. This is not about trade. What this is about, I believe, is Donald Trump's own legacy. I think that when he looks into the mirror, just as Vladimir Putin does, he wants to see himself among the great presidents, just as Vladimir Putin, when he looks into the mirror, he wants to see himself standing beside Joseph Stalin, Peter the Great. This is one of the reasons why Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine. And I think it's that same motivation that is driving Donald Trump's geopolitical agenda at the moment. This is a serious threat to the sovereignty of our nation. I don't think that Canada is quite prepared for this. As I said earlier, you know, we've spent the past century just being friends with the United States, believing that you are our closest ally. All of that has changed overnight. And I think it's. We're. We're still trying to sort of process what all of this means for Canada. We've never thought that we would have to prepare, you know, this economic war that is. That is on again, off again, sort of happening, sort of not happening. That's one thing. But some of the conversations that I'm hearing here in Canada is. Is preparing for a physical invasion of. Of Canada. As I mentioned, I was in Montreal yesterday at. @ McGill at a conference about Russian disinformation. There were questions from the audience there to the US Panelists that were. That were present about, you know, questioning whether Canada should be thinking about developing its own nuclear arsenal to deter a potential invasion. That's how far we've come. And these are serious people asking those serious questions. So, you know, are we looking elsewhere? Yeah, I think that there's a real panic on right now. You know, we saw there was a recent G7 foreign ministers meeting that was held in Quebec where these conversations were being held. One of the primary topics was Canadian sovereignty. We asked for declarations, and we received declarations from other foreign ministers stating their support for Canada's sovereignty. Canada is certainly now looking to our allies in Europe, maybe moving closer to them, diversifying our trade towards them away from the United States, in terms of defense, I think there are conversations that are being held with our European allies about intensifying our cooperation with them. And certainly, I think Canada is going to be ramping up its own defense spending to address these, these potential threats that are happening right now, and that will continue to happen over the next four years. So it's, you know, our, our understanding of the world around us, of our neighbors, is transforming the very, very quickly, and it's, and it's unfortunate we're being forced to do that by the President of the United States.
- [10:51]
Marcus Kolga
Marcus, can I ask you a question? Do you think the people of Canada, like, you're having these conversations at McGill, my alma mater, I might add, do you think Canadians understand the stakes? I mean, Canada is facing a significant election probably this fall. They have to decide on who their new leader is. Justin Trudeau has just stepped down. Mark Carney has stepped up as the head of the Liberal Party, but he doesn't actually have a seat in their parliament right now, so that has to be sorted out as well. Do you think Canadians are understanding? Because my own father was recently visiting me in Los Angeles, and he's sort of a, you know, dedicated Conservative Party member. He's been one his whole life. He's always worked for the party. I have been all over him for years because I think he should be making decisions that don't necessarily serve his wallet, but, you know, serve his grandson and the future and this kind of thing. So I've been all over him for years, but he didn't even really understand the polar bear, Russia musk, Trump connection. Right. And he's a smart guy. Most people in Canada, when I was home at Christmas, when I was home in the summer, they just didn't like Trudeau. And they were kind of like, well, Trudeau has to go. But this is a much bigger problem now. Do you think the Canadians are getting it in a different way now that they're watching what Trump is doing to them?
- [11:58]
Andrea Chalupa
I think so. I think this is one of the silver linings in, in all of this, is that Donald Trump's threats are bringing us closer together. I've never seen this sort of unity amongst Canadians probably in my lifetime. I mean, I have people on my street putting out Canadian flags. I mean, this is not something that Canadians generally do. You know, we do it on Canada Day, but we're not like Americans who need to wear our, you know, our, our, our patriotism on our sleeve. And so, you know, it is, it's, it's actually quite nice to see that Canadians, it's bringing Canadians together like I've never seen before. And I think that, that Donald Trump should, should realize that as well. I think the latest polling showed that 86% of Canadians do not support joining the United States. So, you know, Canadians are.
- [12:45]
Unnamed Speaker
Can't say we don't do it.
- [12:49]
Andrea Chalupa
So we're not. We're not, we're not particularly interested in that concept. Canadians are also realizing that we are a distinct society, that we have our own traditions, our own history, our own values. You know, especially now, they don't really align with what's happening in, in the United States. So I think generally we have rejected this notion of becoming the 51st state. Now, that's not, you know, true all across the country. Back in 2015, you may recall, we had an election and there was a fringe movement that emerged in, in the province of Alberta. This is our. One of our Western nations. They have a lot of oil, natural resources, and they rely largely on the United States for their, for their exports of that. There was a fringe movement that emerged there called Wexit, named after Brexit. And it was truly fringe. And it would have remained fringe had it not been for Sputnik News Russia, one of Russia's state media outlets, who gave this fring movement an international platform which not only helped spread their word across Canada and internationally, but also legitimized them and sort of helped motivate them to keep going. So this movement has remained pretty, you know, quiet over the past decade, but, you know, we're seeing signs of this emerging again. That same movement has come out and said, you know, if Canada doesn't become the 51st state, perhaps Alberta should be. Now, there are no signs that this is really gaining too much traction in the province of Alberta, but it's another vector through which Russia and our other authoritarian adversaries can attack us and try to destabilize Canada's democracy and the unity that has been growing. And I suspect that this will become yet another target of Russian information operations and perhaps others. I would argue now the US Presidential administration as we head into election. As you mentioned, it's coming in. It may be in the fall, but it could be as early as this spring.
- [14:43]
Unnamed Speaker
I want to ask you about Russia's attacks against Canada. You mentioned this disinformation operation. I remember being in Canada about 10 years ago in Toronto, and Ukrainian Canadians were concerned that a Russian oligarch was whining and dining Canadian business leaders, trying to spread that Russian corruption, get Canadians on Kremlin golden handcuffs where they buy you and next thing you know you're furthering their agenda. We had, of course, recently the DOJ investigation revealed that the shell company that was funneling money from the Kremlin, buying off MAGA influencers, paying them hundreds of thousands of dollars a month, like Tim Pool and others, to Benny Johnson to spread Kremlin disinformation against Ukraine, saying Ukraine is the enemy, and so on and so on. So that shell company was based in Canada. What have you been seeing over the last 10 years in terms of operations like this?
- [15:47]
Leigh McGowan
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- [18:25]
Marcus Kolga
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- [18:27]
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- [18:52]
Unnamed Speaker
What have you been seeing over the last 10 years in terms of operations like this?
- [18:58]
Andrea Chalupa
Well, I mean we can go back nearly 80 years. I mean, Canada has been a significant target of Russian information operations going back to the 1930s and 1940s for several reasons. I mean, one is our proximity to the United States. So that makes us a really attractive entry point for Russian intelligence to plant those illegal agents so that they can move later down into into the U.S. but we've also, you know, back in 1945 there was a Guzenko affair. A Russian GRU cipher clerk stationed at the Russian Soviet Embassy in Ottawa who defected with a trove of documents which uncovered a rather large operation at, you know, a couple of dozen assets in Canada whose primary objective was to influence public opinion, to influence elected officials and push them towards policies that were favorable to the Soviet Union. This has been going on since then through the Cold War until now. And you know, you mentioned Russian oligarchs that have been trying to get involved in. In Canada and Canadian businesses. I mean, Roman Abramovich, one of the wealthiest Russian oligarchs, the former owner of Chelsea Football Club, has billions of dollars in ass here in Canada. Evra Steel, which is one of our largest steel producers, is owned by Abramovich. And, you know, when you have that much money invested in the country, obviously there's, you know, some political influence comes with that. So, you know, we. We also have. It's not the UK and the US Alone that have Russian oligarch problems. Canada also has a Russian oligarch problem here. And you bring up tenant media. And thank you for doing that, because this is a clear smoking gun that Russia right now is very much interested in Canada and influencing our information space. You know, you mention that two employees from RT were alleged to have used $10 million to set up this media corporation. A lot of that money came through Canada. Two Canadians are alleged to have been basically deployed to set this up. There were, I think, about a dozen influencers who were employed at, I think the rate was something like $100,000 per podcast episode, basically, to broadcast information that aligned with the Kremlin. The Kremlin's objectives, which are to, of course, undermine democracy, erode the cohesion of our society. And if you watch any of these episodes that were created by this group, I mean, they were vicious. I mean, in terms of language, political. The language that was used, I would say it's. It was violent, politically violent. And so a lot of those episodes that were created by this group also targeted Canada specifically. I think there were over two dozen episodes that were specifically speaking about Canadian issues. But even those that weren't speaking about specifically about Canadian issues, the episodes that were broadcast by Tim Poole and others, you know, they target issues that transcend borders. The problem that we have here in Canada is that we often narrowly focus in on Canada. If the content isn't specifically targeting Canada, then we tend to dismiss it or ignore it, which is dangerous, and it's left us quite vulnerable. But I would say that the vast majority of the tenant media content that was produced was targeting Canada as well as the United States. And so it's clear evidence that we are being targeted. $10 million. You know, I think in the large scheme of things, when you. When you understand that Russia is spending about $1.6 billion a year on disinformation and propaganda operations, $10 million isn't a lot. But when you put that up against the kind of resources we have to fight against it, it's a ton of money. And so we need to, at least in this country, in Canada, need to react very quickly. We need to quickly put defenses in place to build that resilience, especially as we have this election coming up and unfortunately we haven't done that yet.
- [22:36]
Marcus Kolga
Yeah, I think you guys really need to learn from us in many ways. You know, I think that if anything, we should be a shining example of what not to do. Right. I mean, you could say that, you know, the 2024 election was lost by the Democrats for numerous reasons. Right. It was a hard year for incumbents globally. We dealt with a ridiculous amount of straight up lies and disinformation spread by both the right wing media and this right wing sort of ecosphere that we're talking about, the Benny Johnson's and the Tim Pools and all these guys that were actually getting money directly from Russia. But also on what we used to call mainstream media and we now call legacy media, they had this sick need to do both sides of everything just to kind of keep the dollars rolling in. And it didn't serve the American people at all.
- [23:19]
Leigh McGowan
But Republicans in the states are also.
- [23:20]
Marcus Kolga
Engaged in outright voter suppression. Right. We had the Gaza net Israel protests, which I think most people can now see are all part of the same plan of sort of Netanyahu and Trump and Russia to divide the American electorate.
- [23:32]
Andrea Chalupa
So.
- [23:33]
Leigh McGowan
So Marcus, are you seeing the same.
- [23:35]
Marcus Kolga
Kind of dynamics around the election in Canada that will need to be overcome to make sure that the anti Democratic candidate doesn't win there too? And I would call Polar Bear the anti Democratic candidate.
- [23:46]
Unnamed Speaker
And I want to just add to that question. One of the other forces we're up against was this complacency where people, Americans felt they had the luxury to stay home and cast a protest vote, vote third party. They just figured, oh, look at those huge sold out rallies of Kamala Harris. She's going to likely win. So that's also a major danger here where Mark Carney is coming out as the new Prime Minister, the front contender to win the biggest upcoming election October. So the worry is that Canadians on the left might be like, I'm not voting for the establishment figure. I'm already seeing that on social media.
- [24:23]
Andrea Chalupa
Yeah, you know, there's, there's a bit of that. But again, the silver lining with all these threats coming from Donald Trump is that it actually has, has energized voters. I think that we're going to see large voter turnout because of that. But before the inauguration, you know, we did see elements on the right of Canada's political spectrum, exploiting existing divisions in society. You know, exploiting rage, anger, fear, all of that.
- [24:51]
Marcus Kolga
Also, if I may, Marcus, misogyny is a big thing in Canada, too. Like, I'm watching the same sort of, you know, this Trump phenomenon in people like Jordan Peterson and these Canadian, Canadian figures that are also pulling the same behavior. You know, let's get back to the way it used to be behavior. It's happening in Canada as well.
- [25:10]
Andrea Chalupa
Right. And, you know, you're seeing Russian information operations tap into that.
- [25:15]
Marcus Kolga
Right.
- [25:16]
Andrea Chalupa
As well. And so, yeah, this was a growing problem here in Canada. And, you know, I think the polls reflected this, the effectiveness of all of that. You know, around December, Pierre Polievra and the Conservatives were polling at around 25% ahead of the Liberals. I think it was a historical lead that they had after the inauguration. That lead has completely evaporated. I mean, right now, according to the most recent polls, basically the Liberals and Conservatives are in a statistical tie. And I don't think that the Conservatives have sort of figured out a strategy to respond to what they're seeing. I mean, they've been, as far as their own communications are concerned, they've been really ineffective addressing this threat from Trump. Back in January, even December, they were avoiding criticizing Trump directly. They were, you know, going around talking about putting Canada first, but it just didn't have very much impact. And now we're, we're seeing the result of this in the polls. So I think going into the, to the election, I think there's this expectations that with Mark Carney as the new leader, that the Liberals will do much better. But again, I, you know, I don't think this is the result of anything that the Liberals have really done other than electing a new leader. It's really largely due to Donald Trump. And that is the silver lining, ironically.
- [26:26]
Marcus Kolga
In all, if I may, though, I don't think Americans understand Canadian politics that well. I mean, sometimes Canadians don't understand Canadian politics that well. But just to give them a sense of what they're listening to, if you're an American audience right now, the Liberal Party is akin to the Democratic Party. The Conservative Party is akin to the Republican Party as far as Conservative values, Liberal values, that kind of thing. Mark Carney, who is the new Liberal Party prime minister, has a very successful background. Right. He steered Canada through the 2008 economic crash. He was the first non Brit in centuries to run the bank of England. He helped them weather the storm of Brexit. He's seen as this stable force He's a banker, he's a rich dude in this sort of chaotic times. And I feel like he's a different candidate than sort of a progressive Trudeau type character who really had kind of fallen out of favor with the Canadians. To me, it gives people who would want to protect their wallet, traditional Conservative voters who often vote for the Conservative Party in Canada, sort of a safe hand in which to put their country in a different way than they might have found. Do you find that looking at Canadian politics down there to an American audience that might be listening to this as well?
- [27:39]
Andrea Chalupa
Yeah, you know, I think that the. The traditional sort of center right Conservative voter was sitting on the fence. They were pretty much undecided over the past couple of years, ever since Pierre Polievre came to power. I mean, Pierre Polievre really focused on trying to galvanize and. And hold on to the extreme right of the Conservative Party. And his messaging was really, unfortunately, targeting them. You might even call them sort of MAGA north, that group within the Conservative Party here in Canada. And, you know, my sense is, and I don't have the polling data to support this, but I suspect that this turned off a lot of traditional Conservatives here in Canada. All of that has changed now with Carney's leadership. I think that those traditional Conservatives, I think they see him as representing those values the traditional Conservatives here in Canada used to hold. And again, I think that Pierre Polievra has been very slow to react to this change. I mean, he spent the past two years basically treating Justin Trudeau as a human pinata. I mean, he was just. That's all he did. There was never any sort of communications about policies, any significant policy proposals. It was just a constant rabid attack against Justin Trudeau, justified or not. So now to have a Liberal leader come along who clearly does have the credentials in terms of, you know, his banking background, his background in business, I think this is having a truly calming effect. It's reassuring. He's not allowed figure like Pierre Polievre. He is calm, rational, and I think that, again, in the face of these threats from the US it's truly appealing for most Canadians to have someone like that, someone who has that calming effect, reassuring effect, to lead our country in the future. So I suspect in the coming election, he'll probably do quite well.
- [29:26]
Marcus Kolga
He also made a solid hockey joke about taking the gloves off. And I thought that was pretty great. He was like, you start fighting, we're gonna do it. And I thought, y'all, that's pretty Canadian. Like, pull Trump Pull Trump's shirt over his head and give him a couple on the side. Like that felt very Canadian to me. I liked it. He can be a banker all he wants, but I kind of like that gloves off mentality.
- [29:46]
Andrea Chalupa
Yeah, no, for sure. And that's the sort of language that will, I think, unite Canadians. And that's what, why they're lining up behind Carney. Well, they may not be lining up behind Carney, but they're giving him a very, very good look right now. And it's because of, of that sort of messaging, taking the gloves off and certainly the hockey analogies.
- [30:04]
Unnamed Speaker
I was in London the week before and the week after the Brexit vote and I watched all these Tory MPs completely meltdown on live television, backstabbing each other like house of cards. And the one stable force throughout all that Brexit chaos was Mark Carney coming on live television reassuring everyone that they're going to get through it, they're going to weather the storm. And he did weather the storm certainly for Canada in the 2008 economic crash, as Lee mentioned earlier. So my concern is that Russia is going to throw everything it has at your election to try to tilt the scales. They were calling in dozens of bomb threats to voting places across the US in those battleground states. You're someone that testifies, like pushes officials to move in this direction. What would you advise the Canadian government now to secure your elections now? And my second follow up question is what would you advise officials across Canada to do to secure your democracy against Kremlin infiltration like corruption, like what they did with Trump and maga, buying people off through shell companies and so on.
- [31:17]
Leigh McGowan
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- [35:07]
Marcus Kolga
I have literally purchased it for other people.
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- [36:33]
Unnamed Speaker
What would you advise officials across Canada to do to secure your democracy against Kremlin infiltration like corruption, like what they did with Trump and maga, buying people off through shell companies and so on.
- [36:46]
Andrea Chalupa
You know we already know that Russia is targeting the elections. You know we actually saw China targeting the liberal leadership campaign. Krista Freeland was Targeted specifically, about three weeks ago, there was alert that was put out by our government's rapid response mechanism that this organization within global affairs that monitors the information space. So we that Christia Freeland was already attacked. But just earlier this week, actually on Monday at my organization disinfowatch identified an effort by Russian state media, Sputnik, specifically targeting Mark Carney. So that work has already begun. And that article basically tried to discredit him, claiming that he was a member of the deep state elite, that he can't be trusted. It also regurgitated the classic Kremlin disinformation targeting Ukraine because of Mark Carney's support for Ukraine, suggesting that he was a neo Nazi pro Ukrainian sympathizer. So, you know, these sorts of narratives have already started being introduced on Russian state media platforms, which should be an indicator that they will use the influencers. You know, we mentioned tenant media before. We don't know how many other groups like that are currently operating, how many influencers are being paid by the Russian government to amplify those sorts of narratives. So I think that we need to anticipate that far right and far left influencers who are aligned with the Kremlin will certainly target Mark Carney. The Liberals, and I would also argue the Conservatives for that matter, because the Conservatives in Canada have not been immune from these attacks in the past. Back in 2015, they were a significant target because of the Conservative Party's leadership in supporting Ukraine. So I suspect that Russia will be active in targeting all parties, mostly the Liberals at this point. But the question is then what can the Canadian government do? So we do have some institutions in place to try to protect the integrity of our elections. Elections. So there is a task force that is set up in Ottawa that includes the heads of all of our intelligence and law enforcement agencies. So during an election period, any sort of information or influence operations that are detected are brought to this group. They are supposed to analyze that information. And if they do believe that there is a threat to the integrity of the elections, they are then supposed to make this information public. And that's how we knew about this effort against Christia Freeland a few weeks ago that came through that same group. And it so far has proven to be pretty effective in raising public awareness and exposing those sorts of campaigns. But clearly, you know, there's a lot more that we need to be doing. The role of influencers. Again, going back to tenant media, that is one of the most significant threats, I think, to our information environment and the elections. So exposing those, those Influencers who are aligned with foreign adversaries, whether it's Russia, and I hate to say it, you know, the Trump administration in the US as well, you know, people like Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, those are just two individuals who will probably bring up Canada, have brought up Canada before. We need to make sure that Canadians aware of who these people are and what they're trying to achieve. And the government needs to be working with the civil society actors, you know, people like myself, media as well, to make sure that Canadians then are aware. If we're detecting these sorts of operations, it's up to civil society and journalists to make Canadians aware. So, you know, there's a lot more that needs to be done. Unfortunately, there is no silver bullet, as you know. You know, if we want to build long term resilience in our democracies, it's going to be a long term effort. And looking to south of the border, you guys are screwed for the next four years because, you know, I don't think there's much hope of that. I mean, the damage that will be done over the next four years in the United States is. I don't think we even understand the kind of damage that will be done to your democracy and society.
- [40:30]
Unnamed Speaker
Oh, we know. That's why we're having this Canadian super special to save you guys. Don't make the same mistake we did.
- [40:35]
Marcus Kolga
Yeah, that's exactly it. Because we're like, look, we know that we blew it down here. We want to make sure, sure that Canada doesn't blow it. Because it's very important that we keep working democracies around the world. If we're going to be sort of a flawed democracy down here for a while, we need to have places that it's actually still working. And I think one of the other people that we didn't mention when you're talking about tenant media and these people that are involved is of course, Elon. Right. Elon is doing a lot of tweeting about, you know, how Polievra needs to win, how it's, you know, as soon as the American election happened, he tweeted Canada, you're not next. Right. Like he is deeply involved and he has his thumb deeply on the scale for one of those two candidates. And I just want people to understand how, how much he's in bed with this and how much his. He wants this one party to win and this one candidate to win. But I also think we need to talk a little bit about for people that don't know, and I don't even know enough about Polievra and how much he's connected to other connections, like. Like polio. One of his closest friend, as I understand it, is J.D. vance's roommate from college. You know, like, there's all these weird connections, and then you've got Elon being like, this guy has to win. And I think once we. We know now, looking around the States, that if Elon wants one guy to win, we should all not want him to win. Right. Like, that is, I think, quite clear now, watching what he's doing to the States.
- [41:55]
Andrea Chalupa
Yeah, our. Our big problem with Elon is that he's a Canadian citizen.
- [42:00]
Unnamed Speaker
He's broken some laws in America. Can't that get him in trouble in Canada, too?
- [42:06]
Andrea Chalupa
I don't know. I mean, look, he can legitimately claim to have a legitimate voice in our elections and having a say in the outcome because he is a citizen. This is a huge problem. So we can't just simply dismiss him. I mean, he is allowed as a Canadian citizen to have a voice, to have an opinion, and he's allowed to express it. This is a. This is a problem because what he's doing is basically exporting the sort of toxic views and language that we've seen in the United States. All of this is leading to a normalization of this sort of, again, this violent political language. And one of my greatest fears, and I think a lot of Canadians are concerned about this, is that normalization and the normalization of it and it being exported to. To Canada from that platform. And he will use that platform to try and tip the scales in this coming election. But I'm just afraid that there's not much that we can do about it. I mean, we were looking to the United States, to Europe, in terms of regulating some of these platforms. We know that Twitter has resisted all of that. In fact, in Europe, where there. There have been concerns about the lack of moderation and charges have been brought against Twitter, I mean, they've just ignored them, essentially. And so I think Canada has influence in many geopolitical issues in terms of, you know, regulating a platform like Twitter or any of these other giants, we're. We're not just not going to be able to do that. And so it's going to be in terms of social media and the narratives that are being advanced there and amplified there. I mean, it's going to be the Wild west when it comes to our elections. And there's. There's just. There's nothing that we can really do about it here except for potentially censoring or eliminating some of these platforms, but we can't do that either because that's a violation of Canadians right to express themselves freely and it just wouldn't be helpful. So I'm deeply concerned about what we'll be seeing on those platforms, specifically on Twitter.
- [44:10]
Marcus Kolga
X well, if anything, we need people to be aware that disinformation is going to be spread there. And I think the best thing we can do down here in the States to help you guys with that is to continue to tank the Tesla stock because Twitter, you know, it was purchased on, on the stock price. So technically if we keep tanking the Tesla stock, perhaps we can have the Twitter loan called in and he could lose his, he could lose his ex. I would love that. That I think the Americans should be working on very hard so that the Canadians don't have to get inundated and they know to vote for someone that will have their best interest at heart.
- [44:41]
Unnamed Speaker
I wanted to open everyone's mind for a moment and dream big. So one of the concerns I've had for a while now and, and watching the Republican MAGA war against democracy with the voter suppression, the gutting of the Voting Rights Act, Mitch McConnell and Trump packing, these ideologue judges handpicked by the Federalist Society. It's been a decades long war chipping away at our democracy. And Donald Trump in the hands of these far right Republicans was just the final battering. Right. And Russia as well. And now here we are in this constitutional crisis and you're talking about a hard four years. We're just 30 days in, like I don't even know where we're going to be a year from now having these conversations like Lee and I are going to be in some exiled American government reporting from your basement, Marcus. Okay.
- [45:34]
Andrea Chalupa
And you're always welcome.
- [45:36]
Unnamed Speaker
Thank you. Thank you. And so I want to just. So one thing I've been watching is not succession necessarily like a Cal exit, but we saw with Brexit that it was possible, right? Historically in recent years, the Kremlin has always fueled through disinformation and paying off useful idiots in America to fuel these referendums. Ideas for Texas voters to vote their way out of the Union, they focused on Cal Exit California. But now what we're seeing is Americans themselves saying why do I want to be subjected as a Californian, as a New Yorker to the rules, regulations of Mississippi, Louisiana states and the Union with some of the lowest standards of quality of life. Why do I want to be bullied by Mike Johnson of Louisiana when I am A rich state with a higher quality of life. And so I feel that as this goes on, you're going to see a lot of, quote, unquote, reasonable folks more open to ideas of referendums. But the issue with that is if California were to go independent or New York were to go independent, they would need a military, they would need an intelligence operation. Right. Because you can't be your own country without a security force of some kind. And you need taxes and training and expertise to provide all that. So a workaround might be, be what if New Yorkers, New Englanders, the whole west coast were like, we vote to join Canada. All right, so let's reverse this, Trump. Instead of Canada becoming the 51st state, we'll go there.
- [47:16]
Andrea Chalupa
You're all welcome.
- [47:18]
Unnamed Speaker
Let's normalize this, folks.
- [47:20]
Andrea Chalupa
Yeah, no, but I would, I would.
- [47:22]
Unnamed Speaker
Also ask, but kind of not.
- [47:24]
Andrea Chalupa
No, but we've talked about that. We've heard those, those sort of suggestions up here. And I think Canadians are completely open to that. But I would ask you, you, what about the, the farmer in Montana or in Iowa who relies on Canada for their, the import of, for instance, potash. So much of their livelihoods is contingent on those imports coming in from Canada to support that.
- [47:52]
Leigh McGowan
And also, people don't know what potash is.
- [47:55]
Marcus Kolga
It is the fertilizer that most American farmers use on their farm farms that comes from Canada.
- [48:01]
Andrea Chalupa
Right. And they rely on Canada to buy much of what they're producing. I mean, I just looked at a map earlier today. I think it's 36 states. In 36 states, Canada is the largest trading partner. So I would suspect that there are regular people, small businesses, large business owners and farmers in much of those northern states who are also probably wondering what the hell is going on here. Their livelihoods are going to be impacted by everything that's going on. So my guess would be that, you know, you have California, New York, the eastern, northern, northeastern seaboard. I suspect that you'll have other states and especially those in the north of the United States who are going to be thinking the same way. What are we doing with this? Why are we staying here? And if there were a referendum, they might join California in New York in the long term. But my question to you is, what's going on there? Where are the Republican representatives, the governors, the Senate senators? Why are we not hearing from them about this? Because this is impacting their own people.
- [49:05]
Marcus Kolga
I think for the most part, people.
- [49:07]
Leigh McGowan
In the states are still trying to.
- [49:08]
Marcus Kolga
Pretend things are going to somehow right themselves. They haven't quite Figured out that we are sitting in a new world order, and it is ranging itself as we.
- [49:17]
Leigh McGowan
You know, sit still.
- [49:19]
Marcus Kolga
I don't think people conceptually understand that it is very possible that, you know, the Putin and the Xi and the Trumps of the world are kind of just saying, like, hey, we're gonna unite. We're gonna divide up the world. If Trump wants Canada, let him have it, right? That's in his territory. If Putin wants Ukraine, let him have it. That's in his territory. You know, I think these autocrats of the world are really thinking that they're gonna be able to be the New World Order, divide up the world for spoils the way they want it. If China wants Taiwan, take it. If China wants Japan, take it. You know, like, this is how they're gonna divide it up. And I think, to Andrea's point, this idea of having more of an imagination, that this is what the autocrats of the world thinking, that they can take the spoils of the world, divide it up amongst themselves. They can all be billionaires. They can have their oligarchs around them, and they can give their countries to their families when they're done with it, and the rest of us can kind of like, fight for the spoils. I think some of us need to start being more imaginative. Like, maybe the world is changing. Maybe the world order is changing. Maybe the borders will be changing. Do we want these people to make that decision, or do we want to start making that decision? And then the question becomes, how fast can we think? How much can we gather? Where can the opposition come from that actually has leadership? You're watching the States right now. The opposition to the Donald Trump Party has no strong leadership right now. Like, we're all still sort of waiting. We have the leaders in the Democratic Party acting like, from a 1990s playbook, like, it's still gonna be, you know, across the aisle working, you know? And it's like, that's not happening. So what's going to emerge from that? You were talking about Carney as a leader, you know, like, no one would have thought he would be coming out of the woodwork a year ago. I think the thing is, we're wa. And we're gonna have to watch and see who emerges as a leader. But we are gonna have, as Andrea said, a need for a massive reimagination of how the world order looks, because like you said at the beginning of this episode, there is no part of a Canadian's mental state that said America is gonna be our enemy. Three Months from now. Right. And yet here's where we are, right? He's talking about invading Canada. That seems bananas. So I think we have to have a far greater imagination of what might happen and start thinking of what we might want to happen rather than just to happen to us. That is what I would say, Andrea, 100%.
- [51:35]
Andrea Chalupa
I will just say that we need Americans to move very quickly and start imagining very quickly. It's not just us, it is the rest of the democratic world. We need you to come back and snap out of this, and we need you to do it very, very quickly. It's not just you. It's all of us that are being impacted by it.
- [51:54]
Unnamed Speaker
Well, unfortunately, American Americans are, as Lee pointed out, without mainstream leadership right now. The Democrats are operating from a very different playbook. I would even say some of them are what we call controlled opposition. Americans deserve better than this because so many of us fought very hard for a very different country, not just for ourselves and our families here at home, but for the world. Because we know what happens in the US Affects all of us, the whole planet. I do wanna say that from what I've seen so far, the Americans are fighting like the Ukrainians. They're not like the Russians yet. They're not just rush abroad and saying it's game over. I'm going to cash in my chips and leave and be apolitical. No, we're fighting for our country, and we're doing it in a lot of creative ways, given our lack of political power in Congress. Again, the mainstream Democratic leadership is completely checked out, or they're bought off, or they're too scared to meet the moment. But it's really the grassroots engine that's rising up. We have a group here called Run for Something which helps young people run for office. Since Trump won, Run for Something has seen something like 10,000 people from across the country sign up to run for office.
- [53:04]
Andrea Chalupa
That's amazing.
- [53:05]
Unnamed Speaker
Huge groundswell of support. So we want to reassure you that we are fighting despite everything working against us. We're trying to get our country back, not just for our sake, but for yours. And we see this resistance as global, so we need all Canadians to wake up. However you feel about Mark Carney, maybe he's not your first choice, but don't make the same mistake we did. And if you want a different leader to vote for on the ballot next time, plant those seeds now in your community, where you live, help get those leaders elected. An office large and small, like, Fight now with the grassroots power that you have and I think all of us have to be reminded we're all far more powerful than we realize. And that's why these dictators and want to be dictators work so hard to try to turn us against each other. Other flood us with disinformation because they're scared of us, ultimately. And that's a wonderful thing.
- [53:57]
Andrea Chalupa
I mean, it's reassuring as a Canadian to know that there are people like you working on this. And with both of you, with your podcast pushing back on all this and bringing attention to the fact that Canada is feeling threatened, your ally, your friend is feeling threatened. It's truly reassuring. So thank you for all that.
- [54:14]
Unnamed Speaker
We're not going to let you be invaded. That's for damn sure. Like, Lee and I will be, like, jumping in front of those tanks.
- [54:19]
Marcus Kolga
No, we sure as hell aren't going to let you be invaded. And here's the thing. I am both Canadian and American, and I am furious because I am both an American patriot. I really do believe in this nation. I don't believe in what we're doing now, but I believe in the good of this nation. And I believe there are a lot more people than you would think who believe the same thing I do. And I am a Canadian patriot as well, that I'm like, you get the hell out of my country. Like, don't come near it. Get away from it. But I think the thing is, I.
- [54:48]
Leigh McGowan
Want to thank you for taking the.
- [54:49]
Marcus Kolga
Time time to talk to us today about this, Marcus and Andrea, for you to care so much about this, too, because you understand this Russian disinformation machine. You understand how it attacks countries. You understand from the Ukrainian perspective, which you and I always talk about all the time, that Americans need to embrace their inner Ukrainian and just get really bitchy about everything and be just, you know, just deliberately in everybody's way. You know, just move into our insufferable bitch era and say no to everything. We need to do that right now.
- [55:15]
Leigh McGowan
But we also need to do that.
- [55:16]
Marcus Kolga
On behalf of our neighbors because we need that democracy to remain intact, to be reminder to us of what we could be. So I want to thank you both for taking this time. This little Canadian girl is very worried for her home nation. I want my friends and my family who live in Canada who listen to this show to know that this election is your chance to stop what happened to us from happening to you, and you do not want this. So I. I really believe this was an incredibly great conversation. I really hope people understand the importance of this election, the importance of Stopping this continued destruction of Western values and liberal democracies and truth. Canadians can't sit this out. They can't think someone else is going to fix this. They have a chance to stop what we couldn't. Once they do that, then we can all work together to roll it back.
- [56:01]
Andrea Chalupa
Thank you. And thank you for the solidarity.
- [56:04]
Unnamed Speaker
We're going to win. Ultimately, we're going to win. And to the Canadians listening, if you want to get revenge on Elon Musk and Trump, vote for Mark Carney. Because, like, your life depends on it. Because it does.
- [56:14]
Leigh McGowan
Because it does.
- [56:17]
Marcus Kolga
So that was Andrea Chalupa and Marcus.
- [56:19]
Leigh McGowan
Kolga reminding us how important it is that Canada doesn't follow America down their path to authoritarianism in the next election. That the same forces from Russia and MAGA don't convince Canadians to vote against their own autonomy and their own best interests the way Americans did. That Canadians need to know they are dealing with the same psychological warfare in the form of disinformation and lies. But they must use America as a cautionary tale and be smarter than we were. Donald Trump isn't kidding when he says, says he wants to take over Canada. And Canadians need to vote for the leader who isn't in bed with the party that would let that happen. The person they need to be voting for is Mark Carney, the man who will stand in the way of that happening. I want to thank Andrea and Marcus for joining us today and you for caring enough about the future of democracy to be here. It's not just American democracy on the line anymore, it's world democracies. And we need to be very clear which side we come down down on and we need to fight for it. Now I am off to make sure I can vote in Canada and if you are a Canadian abroad, you should be doing that too. Until next week. PG out. Before you go, I just want to.
- [57:26]
Marcus Kolga
Say if you're a premium member of.
- [57:27]
Leigh McGowan
This podcast, thank you. And if you're not a member, please consider supporting my work. As you can see from conversations like this, you aren't going to get this kind of thing from state supporting media that allows this propaganda destroying us to thrive. So we have to support those of us here bringing you the actual facts. If you aren't a member of Politics Girl Premium, please consider going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. You'll get this podcast ad free along with my rants and bonus content sent directly to your inbox. So even if my work is silenced on social media, you will still get access to truth and facts. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode but also on politicsgirl.com and as always, please like and share this podcast so we can grow our audience. Audience the more people who have access to the truth, the better. Thank you always for your time and support. Politics Girl podcast is written and performed by me, Lee McGowan in partnership with the Midas Media Network and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.