The Corruption is Endless. A Conversation with Robert Reich

Summary

The PoliticsGirl Podcast: "The Corruption is Endless. A Conversation with Robert Reich"

Release Date: May 13, 2025
Host: Lee McGowan
Guest: Robert Reich, Economist, Former Secretary of Labor, Author

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Introduction: Setting the Stage for Economic Turmoil (00:00 - 02:44)

The episode kicks off with Robert Reich addressing the detrimental effects of tariffs under President Trump. He states:

“What tariffs really do for him is they give him what they give him bargaining leverage, Trump, they make him more powerful, they allow Trump to make even more deals, and they get foreign governments and foreigners to buy his meme coin.”
[00:00] Robert Reich

Host Lee McGowan introduces Reich, highlighting his extensive background in economics, public policy, and his critical stance on the current administration's economic strategies.

The Erosion of Democracy and Rising Inequality (02:44 - 06:52)

Reich delves into the pre-Trump era, emphasizing that issues like big money in politics and widening inequality were already eroding democracy:

“You can have a choice, either huge money in very few hands or democracy, but you can't have both.”
[04:50] Robert Reich

He traces the roots of current discontent to movements like Occupy and the Tea Party, which eventually paved the way for figures like Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. Reich expresses concern over the increasing sense of irrelevance felt by the average American due to corporate and wealthy influence.

The Republican Budget: A Wealth Transfer Scheme (08:40 - 12:24)

The discussion shifts to the Republican budget, characterized by significant tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations, simultaneously proposing cuts to essential public services:

“We are not doing it. They are cutting these programs in order to give a huge tax cut, another huge tax cut. ... Trump is doing it so blatantly, so malignantly so obviously...”
[08:40] Robert Reich

Reich criticizes the administration's approach, highlighting the potential devastation for programs like Medicaid and Social Security, which millions rely on.

Corruption and the Crypto Scam: An Impeachable Offense (16:41 - 22:20)

Post-ad break, Reich and McGowan tackle the rampant corruption within the Trump administration, focusing on the president's involvement in a crypto Ponzi scheme:

“It's beyond scam. It's a Ponzi scheme that is actually directly enriching Trump and his family.”
[17:33] Robert Reich

They discuss how Trump's crypto initiatives, including his meme coin, benefit him personally while defrauding ordinary investors. Reich points out violations of the Emoluments Clause, as foreign investors use Trump's crypto to fund his businesses.

Impact on Small Businesses and Medicaid (35:02 - 40:35)

The conversation returns to the broader economic impacts, emphasizing how arbitrary tariffs and policy changes are crippling small businesses:

“90% of American small businesses are dependent on imports. So these tariffs are killing small businesses...”
[39:26] Lee McGowan

Reich echoes these sentiments, linking tariffs and deregulation to increased unemployment and economic instability, further disadvantaging the middle and lower classes.

The Democratic Party's Dilemma and Path Forward (24:19 - 40:35)

Reich criticizes both Republican and Democratic parties for their roles in perpetuating economic inequality. He urges the Democratic Party to adopt progressive policies such as:

• Higher taxes on the wealthy
• A living minimum wage
• Universal basic income
• Stronger antitrust enforcement

“The Democrats are not going to win unless they take on the establishment. Unless the Democrats say we've got to have high taxes on the very wealthy.”
[33:38] Robert Reich

McGowan agrees, emphasizing the need for reform within the Democratic Party to better represent and fight for the average American's interests.

The Crucial Role of Education in Sustaining Democracy (44:41 - 45:28)

In discussing Reich's upcoming documentary, they highlight the intrinsic link between education and democracy. Reich asserts:

“Public education is the absolute essence of democracy. You know, ignorance is the handmaiden of tyranny.”
[44:41] Robert Reich

He underscores the importance of investing in public education to empower citizens and safeguard democratic institutions.

Conclusion: A Call to Action (45:37 - End)

Lee McGowan wraps up the episode by summarizing Reich's insights:

“What the public wants is not irrelevant. Something good can emerge from the ashes of this horrendous regime if we collectively demand it.”
[45:37] Lee McGowan

She encourages listeners to engage with Reich's work and stay informed to actively participate in shaping the future of American democracy.

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Key Takeaways

• Tariffs and Economic Policies: Trump's arbitrary tariffs bolster his political leverage but harm small businesses and the broader economy.
• Corruption and Crypto Scams: The administration's involvement in crypto schemes represents a direct conflict of interest and potential legal violations.
• Inequality and Democracy: Concentrated wealth undermines democratic institutions, leading to widespread disenfranchisement.
• Democratic Reform: The Democratic Party must embrace progressive economic policies to effectively combat systemic inequality.
• Education's Role: Robust public education is essential for maintaining an informed electorate and a resilient democracy.

Notable Quotes

• Robert Reich on Democracy vs. Wealth Concentration:
  “You can have a choice, either huge money in very few hands or democracy, but you can't have both.”
  [04:50]

• On Trump's Crypto Ponzi Scheme:
  “It's beyond scam. It's a Ponzi scheme that is actually directly enriching Trump and his family.”
  [17:33]

• Reich on Public Education:
  “Public education is the absolute essence of democracy. You know, ignorance is the handmaiden of tyranny.”
  [44:41]

Final Thoughts

Robert Reich provides a comprehensive critique of the current administration's policies, highlighting the deep-seated corruption and economic strategies that favor the elite at the expense of the majority. The conversation underscores the necessity for significant political and economic reforms to restore democracy and ensure equitable growth. Reich’s insights serve as a clarion call for listeners to engage actively in the political process and advocate for systemic changes that prioritize the well-being of all Americans.

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For more insights and detailed analyses, subscribe to The PoliticsGirl Podcast and stay informed about the forces shaping American democracy.

Transcript

[Robert Reich]

What tariffs really do for him is they give him what they give him bargaining leverage, Trump, they make him more powerful, they allow Trump to make even more deals, and they get foreign governments and foreigners to buy his meme coin.

[Lee McGowan]

Hello and welcome to the Politics Girl podcast. I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it. As today's guest, Robert Reich wrote in his substack, brace yourselves. The economy is heading into very bad weather, that while prices and unemployment are heading up, everything else is heading down, which is of course, the polar opposite of what this president campaigned on and exactly what we, the president's opposition, said he would do. So today we're going to talk to Professor Reich, Dartmouth, Oxford and Yale grad school, who teaches public policy at UC Berkeley and is a senior fellow at the Bloom center for Developing Economies. Professor Reich served in three national administrations, including as Secretary of Labor under President Clinton, is The author of 18 books, the creator of the Netflix documentary Saving Capitalism and the critically acclaimed film Inequality for All. He is also the co founder of Inequality Media, the Economic policy Institute, and the co founding editor of the American Prospect. This is a man who understands what's going on with our economy under this president and isn't afraid to mince words. So without further ado, please welcome my guest, beloved professor, economist and lifelong teacher, Robert Reich. Welcome back, Professor.

[Robert Reich]

Thank you very much, Lee. You can call me, we know each other, but you can call me Bob or your excellency.

[Lee McGowan]

Either way, your excellency, I'll just do that. I think that's good. Do you have a meme out there somewhere of yourself dressed as the pope that we could just have? Everyone has that now.

[Robert Reich]

No, but I'm having a military parade in my honor on my birthday.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, well, I mean, happy birthday to us. That's what we do now here in America. Yeah. Well, thanks for coming. I mean, honestly, obviously we're having this ridiculous conversation because our country's in kind of dire straits. Like we're in this weird moment where we literally put a criminal sociopath in charge of our nation. And he has, unsurprisingly, surrounded himself with incompetent, cruel yes men who seem to have net zero interest in looking out for the American people. And I think that listening to you and appreciating what you've been writing on substack and putting out on inequality media lately, you've been really supportive of the protests and the demonstrations going on around the country. But you've acknowledged that at some point we have to move on from what we are against to what we are for. So would you mind expanding on that a little bit for me?

[Robert Reich]

Well, let me just say, Lee, and this is something we've talked about before and I've talked about before, but the road we were on before Trump, if you can remember, that road was not a great road. In fact, there were some real problems. Our democracy was already being inundated with big money from big corporations and from wealthy people, and it was getting worse and worse and worse. And as a result, the typical American was feeling irrelevant. And a lot of studies were showing that the typical American's views were not really being addressed by Congress or by state legislatures. And there was a lot of corruption. The real direction was widening inequality, creating greater and greater money in the hands of fewer and fewer people, resulting in, as Justice Louis Brandeis once said, you can have a choice, either huge money in very few hands or democracy, but you can't have both. So we have huge money in fewer and fewer hands, undermining our democracy, making people angry. Then we had the bailout of Wall street, which made people even more furious because millions of people lost their homes, as you remember, and millions of people lost their savings, and not one Wall street banker was put in jail. They were bailed out. And then came essentially the Occupy movement and the Tea Party movement, and then came out of those two movements. The direct lineal descendants were Bernie Sanders and, and Donald Trump. You know, we couldn't stay on that road. And when I try to put myself in a. In a position of, is there a silver lining on this terrible storm? I say to myself, well, maybe now, having seen what tyranny looks like and feels like, maybe Americans now will really rally behind democracy and, and economic justice. Is that too much of a Pollyanna view, do you think?

[Lee McGowan]

No, I don't think it's a Pollyanna view because part of that view is a phoenix that rises from the ashes. Part of that view includes the ashes. Right? Like you have to destroy something to build something new. And maybe this man who's taking a wrecking ball to our Constitution, to our rule of law, to the norms that we have taken for granted. In the meantime, we'll also take a wrecking ball to the things that we were taking for granted in kind of a neoliberal, let's just go along to get along way, which really made the inequality so wide and so gregarious that it. That the regular American, understandably, whether they were right or left, felt left behind. Like we're basically saying at this moment, we can't just go back to the America before Trump, because that America was essentially broken anyway. And honestly at this point, it's gone. You know, even the good old days of 2024 had, as you were saying, democracy drowning in big money with the same tiny group of people taking most of our economy's gains. And, and it doesn't work for most of us. I mean you, you put out something that was like according to the data, you know, some, some really big political scientists took a look at how our economy was functioning and like over 40 years of lawmakers making laws, it really seemed like they weren't paying any attention to what the regular people wanted. That when you looked back at 40 years of laws, those laws were at the demand of wealthy individuals, of big corporations, of those with the biggest pockets, who had the most lobbyists, who were bankrolling campaigns which left us regular citizens getting very little of what we actually wanted. Right. So if we were talking about going back, it would be we, let's go back to putting constitutional guidelines in place, let's go back to having a rule of law, let's go back to having that kind of thing. But no, let's not go back to having the very richest make all of our demands. It's like there's a reason that 80% of us want a higher minimum wage or 80% of us don't want guns in schools. And yet it never gets done.

[Robert Reich]

But this is why, you see, I think there's an opportunity now because the anti Trump opposition, not just the never Trumpers who are Republicans, also a lot of Democrats, a lot of independents, beginning to form these extraordinary big coalitions. A lot of people demonstrating who have never demonstrated before. You know, people are actually becoming activists and joining with others in their communities and nationally and even internationally. Lee, you've got, you know, Canada, I mean, who thought of Canada as an activist nation? Canada is joining. The new Canadian Prime Minister is talking about joining with Europe in a coalition that is gonna put pressure on the United States. I don't wann want to be too positive about what could come out of these ashes, but there are green shoots a future that actually maybe suggests that we needed to go through this hell.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, I mean it's quite obvious that we need something different and new. I was listening to Senator Chris Murphy talk recently and he was saying if there's one thing Americans can agree on, if there's one thing Americans could even be focusing on right now to know where we're at, it's the current Republicans budget. Because he said, look Trump can do a million crazy things. He is doing a million crazy things. We can get lost in all of that. But what the Republicans have written down as their priorities gives the game away. And it should just be clear to everyone, whether you're a Republican, a Democrat, whether you don't vote, whether you're an Independent, that this budget bill that they have put together is the biggest transfer of wealth from the poor and the middle class to the ultra rich in the history of this country. Right, that's right.

[Robert Reich]

Because. Because we're talking, we're talking, we're talking about cut, cutting programs. I mean, Elon Musk obviously already started cutting programs that people need. I mean, veterans and Medicaid and cutting the, even the administration of Social Security and all kinds of other things that people are dependent on food stamps. People are dependent on these programs. Cutting them for what? We're cutting them in order to, we are not doing it. They, the Republicans are cutting these programs in order to give a huge tax cut, another huge tax cut. We already had a huge tax cut in the first Trump regime. We now have a second huge tax cut coming up. That's what they want for the wealthy, for big corporations, for, you know, I mean, this is absurd. Trump is doing it so blatantly, so malignantly so obviously, that I think it's going to, hopefully people are going to rally against all of this. This is going to be a big, big deal.

[Lee McGowan]

And the thing is, is that if people don't know this budget bill that's being proposed by the Republicans, it'll ultimately end up throwing millions of people off their health care and cutting things like child nutrition programs again to pay for what Bob is saying, tax cuts for the ultra rich. Because Medicare alone is going to lose over $800 billion, which is essentially their whole budget, and that is 24% of Americans that are insured through that. Right. And again, they are proposing trillions of dollars in cuts to services to Americans to justify trillions of dollars in tax cuts to the people who need it the least. And they basically have to destroy democracy to do it. You know, they're just ignoring what the rest of us need.

[Robert Reich]

Let's keep our, our eyes peeled for what they are actually going to do and how they are going to justify it and, and also how they're going to sneak it through. That is, for example, Medicaid cuts. I believe they're either going to give each state a block grant and the states have to cut, doing the cutting. And the states can be the scapegoats. For who's doing the cutting on Medicaid because they've got a block grant that doesn't go far enough. Or the administration and the regime and the Republicans will say to Medicare care and Medicaid recipients, you've got to work. We're putting a work requirement onto Medicaid. And a lot of people will not be able to work because they. That's why they're on Medicaid. So the Republicans will say, and Trump will certainly say, well, you shouldn't get Medicaid if you don't work for it. There's all this subterfuge that's going to be used, so keep your eye on it. It is going to be. I mean, one out of three American children is now dependent on Medicaid. Huge numbers of elderly people are dependent on Medicaid. Medicaid is a very, very important program to a gigantic number of Americans.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah. Especially in a country where our healthcare is so extraordinarily expensive. This is why people can't afford their health care. It's not because they're not working hard enough or because, you know, like, elderly people can't do it. Children certainly aren't. Well, if they have their way, they'll probably have them in little coal mines in the future. But children are not. And I think we have to keep this in mind, that this isn't all just Trump. Right. This is on the Republican Party in general, particularly the Republicans in Congress, because they could stop all of this. Right. Everything that we're seeing, everything that's going crazy in the country cannot just be blamed on one man. And I don't want it to be just blamed on one man. You know, the Republicans in Congress could be protecting our constitutional rights right now. They could be doing their job of controlling the government purse and making the laws.

[Robert Reich]

They're doing nothing. They're doing absolutely. What do they say to themselves when they look at themselves in the mirror in the morning as they're brushing their teeth? I assume they look at themselves in the mirror. What do they say to justify being members of Congress, being senators? By the way? I don't wanna let the Democrats off the hook here. I don't either, because too many Democrats have been drinking at the same trough in terms of campaign finance as Republicans. Too many Democrats have gone along with Republicans on certain critical votes over the last. Well, just over the last few weeks. You know, I think the Democrats have not fought hard enough. I think they can make a bigger deal. This is. Now, I'm not, I'm not talking about, you know, Bernie Sanders and AOC and Chris Murphy and Cory Booker. You know, a couple of them have really stood up, but many of them have not. And they should. They need to.

[Lee McGowan]

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[Robert Reich]

You know, a couple of them have really stood up, but many of them have not. And they should, they need to.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, this is one of the major conflicts I think, in the Democratic Party right now because we have Democrats who want this kind of progressive big change and what I would call old school or corporate Dems who would just love to go back to kind of this neoliberal America they had before where everything was working out well for them. And those two groups, even in the Democratic Party seem really at odds. And I think we can see that right now with the crypto thing because there are some Democrats ready to vote to sort of move this crypto thing forward. And so let's talk a little bit about this crypto thing because this Trump crypto, what I'm gonna call a scam, because we now know that Trump's crypto business has already earned his family $2 billion in investment from UAE and like a billion dollars in just cash for transactions. Just.

[Robert Reich]

It's a huge. I mean, it's beyond scam. It's a Ponzi scheme that is actually directly enriching Trump and his family. This is not like, you know, Bill Clinton and the Lincoln Bedroom raising money for the Democratic Party now. This is actually going into the pockets of the President of the United States. And he is using his office and the White House. He's having a big dinner for all the major crypto investors in his crypto meme coin. He's giving them a tour of the White House. He's creating more demand for his own crypto coin. And a lot of the major investors are foreign, are international investors. I mean, there is something called the emoluments clause in the Constitution that says no officer of the government of the United States can take money and gifts from foreign nations. Well, Trump is doing it.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah. I mean, he did it in the first term with his hotel, and now he's just upped the ante where foreign governments can genuinely just pay. Pay him through his crypto for their own services. But this isn't just. It doesn't just stop at crypto. And I want to be really clear with the people, the regular people that are investing in Trump's crypto, they're making nothing. Right. The coin is a grift.

[Robert Reich]

That's where the Ponzi scheme comes in. The Ponzi scheme is a scheme where the first investors make a huge amount of money and they leave the later investors holding the bag because nobody else wants to get in. That's also what we see with Trump's crypto and his meme coin. I mean, he's making a lot of money. He's already made a lot of money. The later investors have actually lost money.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, they've lost a lot of money. I mean, the entire administration is kind of a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Corruption grift. I mean, Donald Trump has Pam Bondi, who is the AG and supposed to be America's lawyer, who is now acting as his lawyer. He's had the US Justice Department drop stop investigations into a hundred big corporations. He's blanket pardoning people who are totally guilty of financial crimes. He's gutting regulatory agencies. He's firing ethics watchdogs. He's hosting, as you just said, like, these giant dinners for donors. I think the most recent one is $1.5 million a plate. So that's a certain type of person that can go to that dinner. They're opening this private club in Washington called the Executive Branch where you can hobnob with the Trump family and Trump family friends and cabinet members if you can pay the half a million dollar entrance fee. And it's basically just like a smoky back room of the Gilded Age, except right out in our faces.

[Robert Reich]

This is the most corrupt administration in American history in terms of everybody giving it money and giving Trump money and Trump family money in order to get what they want. It's not just access, but they're actually quid pro quo deals going on in the Middle East. For example, Trump's going to the Middle east and what is he going to do? He's talking to Middle east governments, you know, in Saudi Arabia and Qatar and elsewhere and uae. These Middle east governments are backing his own family's businesses, his hotels, his enterprises in those same countries. The corruption is endless, it's bottomless. And I would like to think that all of this information is going to be coming out and the American public is going to say, no, this is wrong, we don't want this government. And at least in the midterm elections, we're going to get the Democrats taking over both houses of Congress. But it may be even before that, maybe before that we'll get another, a third impeachment, but this time enough senators to convict.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, well, conviction is where we at. If you just look at the crypto scam alone, that's an impeachable event. I mean, there's so many things he's doing. But that crypto scam alone is a full on bribery scandal. We have to remember that these billionaires that are out here, the guys that will join the executive branch club, these foreign billionaires, all these people, the entire class of people that heads our cabinet and hangs out with Trump, they don't care if prices go up. They don't care if we have 30 dolls or two dolls or we get five pencils. They're not thinking about, you know, that's what we're talking about. Two doll Donnie. But really it comes down to things like what we require to live. Our healthcare, our food, our housing, that stuff means nothing to them. Their wealth insulates them from the cost of living that the rest of us deal with daily. You know, this is the president who said that groceries was an old fashioned word. Anyone use that word anymore? And we're like, what planet are we living on? So I do hope that more people will start to wake up to this.

[Robert Reich]

Well, not only that, but I think that the billionaires class surrounding Trump and the people who Trump really is working for, they did get nervous when bond prices started falling because they've got lots of money in bonds and treasury bills. And if you look back At American History, 50 years ago, the very wealthy in this country supported the United States government through their tax payments. You know, the marginal income tax during the Eisenhower administration, the top marginal tax on the very rich was 92%. And then even if you figure in all of the deductions and the tax credits, it was way over 50%. And they managed in the Reagan administration and the George W. Bush administration and the Trump administration to get their taxes lower and lower and lower. And they are supporting the government now through buying T bills, through lending money to the government. But when those T bills start going down, when those treasury bills start going down, because everybody is losing confidence in Trump's ability to maintain the dollar, well, then it gets Trump's attention. That's when he backed off of the big tariffs. That's when he says, okay, I'm gonna have a maybe a 90, we'll have a 90 month freeze on the tariffs. We'll slow down a little bit. Getting a little bit, a little bit anxious. Well, it's not that people are getting anxious, it's his big backers are getting anxious.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. It's not the people, it's the people that are in his ear that were getting anxious. I mean, I think the thing is, it goes back to your point from the beginning. We can either have a concentrated amount of wealth in the hands of a very small group, or we can have democracy because big money and dark money that are now participating in our democracy are completely destroying what we have. Do you think that any of this changes until we get something like Citizens United out of politics? Because it is money that is clear, the corrosive element here?

[Robert Reich]

Well, that's right now, I think, I mean, one way of getting big money out of politics has been we almost got there, and that is you have a public fund that matches the donations of small donors so that anybody running for office, including president, has an incentive to give up the big donations, to set a cap on big donations, and also to prevent those so called independent groups from providing donations in order to get the small donations, matching funds. Now that's been tried. We came very close in the last Congress. I think we should keep on trying. I think we ultimately are going to have to have an amendment to the Constitution or get a brand new Supreme Court because the Supreme Court that passed Citizens United or that essentially destroyed the whole financing system, the public financing system we had before that. That Supreme Court doesn't know or care about corruption. It has defined corruption to mean almost nothing. This is part of the theme we were talking about before.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, it is, isn't it?

[Robert Reich]

Building something better, Building something new. Building something better. Take, you know, the phoenix rising from the ashes of what Trump leaves us and creating a democracy that is really a democracy, a democracy that works for all of us. A democracy that is an economic democracy as well. A political democracy.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah. We should be really clear, because when Trump won the first time, the richest 100th of 1% of Americans accounted for 40% of all campaign donations by 2024. We all know that one man basically bought the election running roughshod over every single government agency that was actually investigating him or might charge him for anything. It's totally an unsustainable reality that we're, I think, starting to feel, if not not see, that we are living in a completely rigged system for the ultra rich and for the establishment. And that's not sustainable for the. For the majority of us. And we have to remember it is the majority of us. With all the chaos that's happening around us, one of our top priorities should probably be getting our finances under control. And one of the best ways we can do that is by using Rocket Money. 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And after you purchase if they ask you where you heard about them, please support our show and tell them we sent you. Invest in the health and longevity of your skin with one skin. Your future self will thank you. I told this story about a month ago, but it's true and funny so I'm telling it again. I was in a public bathroom and I came out of the stall to find a woman trying to adjust her shapewear in the mirror and she was surprised to see me. So she felt embarrassed and then started apologizing. She was like, oh, I'm so sorry, I should have just done this in the stall, but this stupid thing keeps rolling down all the time. And my response was first of all, don't worry about it, I totally get it. And secondly, have you tried Honey Love? Because it doesn't do that. And it's not like I was doing an ad for my podcast. I was just one girl talking to another girl in the bathroom and I thought I could help. 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And the Super Power short also has a Booty lifter with boost bands in the back of the thigh to give your bum an amazing shape. So treat yourself to the most comfortable shapewear on earth and save 20% off [e-mail] politicsgirls use our exclusive link to get 20% [e-mail] politicsgirl and after you purchase, if they ask you how you heard about them, please support the show and tell them that we sent you. Experience the new standard of shapewear with Honey Love. And to that woman I met in the bathroom, I really hope you got some. I know you're gonna like it. We are living in a completely rigged system for the ultra rich and for the establishment and that's not sustainable for the majority of us. And we have to remember it is.

[Robert Reich]

The majority of us and we are living because of all of this, everything you said we are living in the most anti establishment era of politics we've seen in this country maybe in over 150 years. That means that we've got to have a real anti establishment party. I mean the Democrats are not going to win unless they take on the establishment. Unless the Democrats say we've got to have high taxes on the very wealthy. We've got to have a minimum wage that is really a living wage. We've got to have universal basic income, we've got to have profit sharing. We've got to really remake this economy so it's not run by big corporations and the rich. We've got to have antitrust laws that are being, that are going to be enforced. We've got to bust up big corporations. Now again Democrats have not said this, any of this because they don't want to bite the hands that feed them. Well, if Democrats are not going to say this, maybe we need another party. It's very hard to start a third party in this country. But we do have to have people who are going to have the courage and backbone and vision to say things like this.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, no, we need to elect. I think I agree with you, it's almost impossible to start a working third party in this country. But, but I do think we could take over the Democratic Party with people who were genuinely looking out for the Democratic people and the American people. Because I've been in meetings with Democrats where they're like don't mention universal healthcare. And I'm like why not? That's what everyone needs. If you said we actually need you to not be stuck and trapped in your job or your marriage because of your healthcare. We need you not dying on the street cuz you couldn't afford your diabetes medicine. You know, like actually most people would be for that, that don't be afraid of that.

[Robert Reich]

I've been in meetings with Democrats and Democratic operatives who say don't mention labor unions. What?

[Lee McGowan]

What?

[Robert Reich]

Don't mention labor unions.

[Lee McGowan]

That's why people think they're two sides of the same coin. But I do think that there are a number of Democratic leaders right now who don't take corporate money who are out there for the people and those are the people we need to be promoting and we can't be afraid of primary our own people to say like we need people that are speaking for us, we don't need to start a brand new party. We need to shake up our.

[Robert Reich]

I think that's exactly right. And here again, looking for silver linings. It may be that this horrible period we're going through, this Trump regime maybe is going to force the kind of changes that you and I are talking about. Yeah.

[Lee McGowan]

And maybe that's the way it has to be. I mean, look at the tariffs alone. Okay, so we did get the tariffs. We didn't get the 90 day, you know, pause that he was necessarily talking about. We're going into them now. What are your thoughts? And I want to be clear to people. I don't think Bob or I would say that tariffs by blanket are a bad thing, but arbitrary tariffs with no rhyme or reason that are ridiculous. And it's like I'm going to say 145%, it's going to be 200%. Like this kind of random. That's a real problem.

[Robert Reich]

It's crazy. I mean, number one, nobody's going to invest in a factory in the United States without, without knowing what the future is going to be. And Trump keeps changing the rules. Number two, factory jobs. And he even Trump even talking about going back to coal mining. Well, factory jobs and coal mining are not great. I mean, it's not that people love factory jobs. They like the money that was associated with the factory jobs. They like the money that was associated with working in a mine. The only reason that those jobs had good money attached to them is because of unions, because there were strong unions that gave people bargaining leverage. So if you were working for a big corporation or you were working down a mine shaft, you knew you had a union behind you that was looking out for your health and safety and also make sure you were getting a paycheck that was big enough to sustain your family. But the Trump administration hates unions. They're trying to bust unions. They hate the Labor Department. They've made the National Labor Relations Board inoperable. They're trying to take away the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. So why have lousy jobs? I mean, factory jobs that are lousy jobs don't help anybody. The whole point is to give and make sure that the middle class and working class and poor in this country have pay and a standard of living that is sustainable and continues to rise as people do better and better, as the economy does better and better, as companies do better and better. Trump is not talking like that. He's talking about what tariffs. I mean, tariffs are only orthogonally, very, very indirectly related to all of this, what tariffs really do for him is they give him what, but they give him bargaining leverage. Trump, they make him more powerful, they allow Trump to make even more deals, and they get foreign governments and foreigners to buy his meme coin.

[Lee McGowan]

I'll lay off on the tariffs if you put Elon Starlink in your. You know, like, it's all so corrupt. I mean, here's the thing that bothers me so much is that, like you said, people don't love factory jobs or working in a coal mine. They like the security that came with the job. They like the paycheck that came with the job. They like to be able to take care of their family. I mean, I just watched a coal miner the other day saying the Trump administration just got rid of their screenings for black lung. Oh, well, that's terrific. You know, like, that's one thing you always get from being a coal miner. And coal miners knew that, but they knew that if they got black lung and died, the government would take care of their family after that was part of the deal. I will do this terrible, horrible job that will probably kill me, but I will have enough money to live by. And coal miners actually make quite a lot of money if people don't know they make over $100,000. And then I will die from this job. I did. But you will take care of my family after it. Now they're not even gonna do that. And the thing about the tariffs is, is it's going to kill our small businesses, right? Like, 90% of American small businesses are dependent on imports. So these tariffs are killing small businesses, right? So 80% of US employment comes from small business, like businesses that are less than 500 people. I'm saying a small business. And so we're going to have higher unemployment, job losses at the same time that all the prices are going up. And I keep thinking, like, listen, listen. We've been told our whole lives as Americans to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, right? To work hard, to innovate, to not take handouts, to earn our American dream, right? And then this American government comes in, changes hands, and literally destroys tens of millions of people's built up by their bootstrap businesses and their livelihoods. And I hope that that would make something's gotta give happen. People will be like, wait a second. Because the Republicans really are in charge of everything. So maybe at this point, we won't blame the other party for this.

[Robert Reich]

The Democrats have got to be courageous and they've got to make the case. They've got to show what is actually happening, why it is helpful for the billionaire class, why it is hurtful for average working people. You need Democratic candidates for the midterms who are tough and strong and making that case. You also need a backbench of Democrats for the 2028 presidential election who are making this case, and they ought to be making it right now.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, making it right now.

[Robert Reich]

Republicans are obviously are not going to be making it.

[Lee McGowan]

No, they don't care at all. But I agree, the Democrats have to be doing that right now because they have to show themselves. In contrast, they can't be taking money from the same people. They can't be, as you said, feeding from the same trough. You can't beat an oligarchy or a billionaire class with your own oligarchs and billionaires. Right. You have to do it differently so that you can show you're looking out for a different group of people. Because it's not that billionaires won't benefit under a society that takes care of its workers, takes care of its people, where people aren't starving on the street. They will, but they. They won't be the only people that benefit. And I think that's the way we have to look at it.

[Robert Reich]

And this is very, very important because the, the billionaire class will actually do better with an economy that is more stable, where more people feel like they are being treated fairly. People have enough money in their pockets to buy all that. The billionaire class and their companies, their big companies are creating and making. Well, you have a system that is very close to the system we had in the first 30 years after the Second World War when it was a win win. Now, it wasn't perfect. I'm not saying go back then because, you know, black people and Latino people.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, no, the civil rights part of women, we need to have adjusted.

[Robert Reich]

But the financial part and women's rights and everybody. But. But the point is, the economy was moving and our politics were moving in a direction that was the right direction until about the late 1970s. And then we had this giant, giant U turn because by the 1970s, inequality and corporate power were getting out of control. And that's when money started to undermine our entire economy. That's when you had the beginnings of the hostile takeovers. Corporations starting to say, well, the only purpose of a corporation is to make as much money for shareholders as possible. We got rid of stakeholder capitalism at that point. Well, here's again, we need to rethink this. We need to go back to stakeholder capitalism. Donald Trump says Equity and inclusion, they're terrible ideas. Well, I'm sorry, equity and inclusion are pretty good ideas. They're very important ideas. If we want to save capitalism. If we want to save a system of democratic capitalism.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, because if you want people out there buying your product and working in your stores, they have to have enough money to do it. If you want them buying new cars and being a part of the market, that what you're talking about. That era where we had enough money that goes back to the highest tax rate on the very richest in the corporations was around 70%. And we were able to build the highways and do all these things that we now don't build anything. And we let everything crumble because we don't have enough money. And our choice is, well, charge the people that have enough money to start paying for those things again or let it all crumble around us while a tiny group of people live in absolute excess. And that probably is unsustainable. And I think we're seeing it now, it's totally unsustainable.

[Robert Reich]

70% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. And as jobs become less and less secure, more and more people find that they cannot meet just the normal costs of living. And many of them are afraid. And I don't blame them. Of course they're afraid. But a strong man named Donald Trump is not going to save them. You know, in history, people who are afraid sometimes are attracted to so called strongmen who disdain democracy. But what happens when a strongman gets into office and democracy is destroyed? Well, we know historically what happens. You have vicious murderers, you have terrible wars, you have horrible depressions. You don't want to go down that road. And I think people are learning, people are, are becoming, are beginning to understand this.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, sometimes it's, you have to put your hand on the stove to realize that it really is hot, that you can't just be told it, you have to feel it. And I think that might be where we're at. I have to tell you, you have a documentary coming out about you soon called the Last Class. It's coming out just so people know, on June 27, because you are facing your last class as a professor at Berkeley. You've taught for, I think, 45 years. And I love it because you're sort of the movie is kind of you wrestling with the reality of your own aging, but your young students inheriting this kind of terribly broken world. And I am of the belief that educators never really retire. Like you might not be at Berkeley anymore. After this. But you will always be a teacher. And so I really appreciate you coming on the show today and kind of sharing that wisdom with us because it's so important. And I really hope people will check out that documentary.

[Robert Reich]

Oh, thank you. Well, education and democracy are hand in glove. You know, an educated population is critical for democracy, and they understood this. The founders understood this. This is the beginnings of public education in the 18th century in the United States. A lot of conservatives, a lot of right wingers, Trumpers, they want to get rid of public education. Well, I'm sorry. Public education is the absolute essence of democracy. You know, ignorance is the handmaiden of tyranny. We can't let education slip. We've got to continue to invest in our young people in their education, their training, their access to knowledge, their ability to critically reason. You can't have a democracy without it.

[Lee McGowan]

No, you can't. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope people will continue to follow your work because you're just putting such great stuff out there.

[Robert Reich]

Thank you, Lee. You take care. Thanks for having me.

[Lee McGowan]

Thank you. So that was Robert Reich reminding us that what the public wants is not irrelevant. That something good can emerge from the ashes of this horrendous regime if we collectively demand it. That we can be against this hideous, lawless, authoritarian version of America. America, where our president is a corrupt grifter surrounded by other grifters while still acknowledging that the country wasn't perfect before. That perhaps the coalitions being built to fight this regime will find common ground beyond beating Trump. That we can potentially create something new, something better, a nation where we can all thrive, not just the select few. But to get there, we have to know that's where we're going. And we have to ask for it and work for it and demand it, both from our leaders and from each other. I want to thank Bob for joining us today and you for caring enough about this country to be here. Now go check out the Robert Reich substack and invest in your own knowledge and education. Our democracy depends on us being smart enough to know what's going on. Until next week. Pg, do you want to get this podcast ad free delivered directly to your inbox along with my kitchen ramp? Then please consider becoming a member of Politics Girl Premium by going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. If you're already a premium member of this podcast, thank you for your support. And if you're not a member, please consider becoming a patron of my work. Mainstream news is only giving you a version of billionaire backed propaganda at this point, so if you really want real knowledge, it's essential to support those of us out here still bringing it to you. There's a link to sign up in the bio of this episode, but also on politicsgirl.com and as always, please like and share this podcast so we can grow our audience. The more people who have access to this kind of information, the better. As always, thank you for your time and support. Politics Girl Podcast is written and performed by me, Lee McGowan in partnership with the Midas Media Network and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.