← The PoliticsGirl Podcast
The PoliticsGirl Podcast
Veterans Fighting Fascism: A Memorial Day Conversation with Kristopher Goldsmith
00:55:18
Loading summary
Transcript48 lines
- [00:00]
Christopher Goldsmith
One of the problems that my generation, I'm a millennial, we have is that we tend to focus super online. You know, local newspapers died after we graduated high school. They just didn't exist anymore. So we tend to focus on what Washington D.C. is doing. Congress and Musk and Trump, that's all we pay attention to. But fascism, when it grows, it grows in your backyard. It's not a top down thing. It's, it's also grassroots. So we're encouraging people to get active, get local, and to go to your school board and make sure the fascists aren't pulling books out of your, your libraries. Because that is how fascism materializes all across the United States. And that's where each of us individually can make the greatest impact.
- [00:56]
Lee McGowan
Hello and welcome to the Politics Girl podcast. Hi, I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it. The country is an absolute mess. Based on the newest tax bill passed by the Republican House, we have a government that seemingly doesn't care if we live or die. They will kick us off our health insurance, out of our jobs, away from our doctors, choosing instead to make the richest among us have more. It's irrational, illogical, deeply dangerous, and yet many of the people who will be hurt most by these decisions voted for this government. Instead of being radicalized against these people who steal from them and will let them starve or die, they have been radicalized against the rest of us because of culture wars and propaganda. So today we're going to speak to Christopher Goldsmith, an Iraqi combat veteran, investigator and writer who studies disinformation and domestic extremist movements in America. Chris is the author of the popular substack On Offense with Chris Goldsmith and one of the hosts of the Findout podcast. But we're going to be talking to him today, mostly about his group, Veterans Fighting Fascism, an organization that is part of the task Force Butler Institute out here, using their military training for democracy rather than insurrection. So without further ado, please welcome my guest, thought leader, writer and combat veteran fighting fascism stateside, Christopher Goldsmith. Welcome, Chris.
- [02:09]
Christopher Goldsmith
Hey, thanks for having me.
- [02:10]
Lee McGowan
Oh, well, thanks for joining me. Now, listen, I originally found you through two films, right? One was the documentary War Game, which was sort of this real time six hour war game in which a Donald Trump type figure had lost the election but was refusing to concede and kind of violent right wing militia groups were joining him in that fight. And the question posed by that film was under what circumstances would the sitting president choose to use the Insurrection act and deploy the US Military on domestic soil in response. And in that film, you played a right wing extremist working to undermine the system. And then I also know you from Ken Harborough's documentary Against All Enemies, which was based on the idea that our democracy is under attack and there's an organized effort by people with skills, namely former military, who are helping to facilitate those efforts. So Against All Enemies really focused on the radicalization of our former military and the draw that many of our veterans feel towards these far right extremist groups. And in that film, you had a very unique perspective because when you were first home from war, you had the opportunity to fall into that kind of right wing pipeline and you chose to go the other way. So both films dealt with the growing extremism of the far right and the role that our veterans play in that world. Where do you think we sit now when it comes to those issues?
- [03:35]
Christopher Goldsmith
So as we're recording this, just hours ago, I published a piece about techno fascism. And in that piece I write about how the coup is already happening. It was broadcast, the plan was broadcast, and it is being implemented. So what I try to do with my platform is convince Americans that all hope is not lost. Like we. It is not too late to act. It is not too big of a problem for individual Americans to pick themselves up and try and solve. You know, where are we? We are in a constitutional crisis. Where are we? We're in, you know, the end stages of the democratic experiment if everyone stays on the sidelines. And what you have seen is these two movies, documentaries are the result of not just years of my work in counter extremism, but of my life experience as a disillusioned vet, as someone who deployed to a war. I deployed to Iraq in 2005, experienced really terrible things, came home to a country that didn't give a shit, that didn't care about my sacrifices or my friends getting hurt or killed or after we came home, a lot of them ending their own lives. I came home to indifference and being lied into a war, having really, truly believed in it, harboring frankly racist and Islamophobic beliefs. Being a New Yorker, a kid. I was 16 when 9. 11 happened, right? All of these things made me who I am today. And I could have gone down a far different path. I was a Ron Paul libertarian when I got out of the military in 2007, in 2008, I was the closest thing I've ever done to like really campaigning or getting involved in a political campaign, aside from a few TikTok videos. Last year, was Me running around my hometown spray painting Ron Paul revolution. Right. And it was my type of veteran veterans supportive of the Ron Paul campaign who became the Oath Keepers. That is who Stuart Rhodes is. He, he was on the Ron Paul campaign in 2008 and he was fed like I was fed this ideology, this mythology, this myth that the election of 2008, the primary election for the Republicans of 2008 was stolen from Ron Paul. John McCain was the usurper. It, it was the same narrative that Donald Trump was using in 2016 and then he won. So people don't really remember the stolen election live from 2016, that he used it again in 2020, and then he started using it again in 2024, but he won that one too. So, you know, all of my expertise on the far right comes from the seeds of having been there and almost going down that path and understanding the psychology of these folks, because I was there.
- [06:43]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. This is the thing, I think that a lot of people who have been to war, and correct me if I'm wrong, because of course I haven't. My closest veteran in my family, my father in law, my husband moved all around the world with the US Navy and they lived all around the world. And so it's a very, very pro military family that I married into. And I'm of course Canadian by birth, so we don't have the same sort of military background really. Although my grandfather on my father's side did fight in World War I and World War II, which is very rare. But I feel like if you are a veteran, you, you build this camaraderie with people overseas, you build this camaraderie with your unit or with the military in general. And then once you' of the military, it's almost like you're set adrift, you are alone. And in some ways, people seek out groups that will make them feel like they belong again, especially groups when you have been a part of a unit for so long that you seek that out stateside. But then the problem becomes, if you are radicalized while you are seeking that unit stateside, we essentially have homegrown, American trained terrorists on our own shores. People that can use their military training against their fellow citizens because they feel like they have been abandoned.
- [07:57]
Christopher Goldsmith
Do you find that there are so many threads to pull on in everything that you just said? Like there are books focused on each individual part of everything that you just asked. So let me, let me just try to choose a few. So a lot of folks, you know, think about combat veterans and war veterans and make the assumption that, you know, it is the experience at war that, that builds this camaraderie, this small unit cohesion, this brotherhood or sisterh. It is not just that from the first day of basic training, it is ingrained in you that you have to trust the man or woman to your left and right with your life. And with that builds a real appreciation. You know, from basic training on, you are taking care of each other. You're physically protecting one another. You know it. There are political dynamics within any group, right? People think about politics as Republicans and Democrats. You're playing politics when you're in first grade and you're choosing your friend group, right? When. When somebody's getting bullied. That is politics in the military. Politics at the micro level is, is you keeping each other from harm. Whether that's the drill sergeant seeing your buddy mess up on the first day of basic training, or that's, you know, someone pulling you out from a doorway because you're walking in accidentally walking into a kill zone, or what we call a kill zone in the military where you're likely to get shot. So it is not just combat vets. A lot of people look at Stuart Rhodes, the guy who led the Oath Keepers and was convicted of sedition before Donald Trump gave him a free pass and let him out of jail. They see the eye patch and they think, oh, this guy must be a combat vet. No, no, he shot himself at the range because he's an idiot. The man has never deployed to a combat zone. But he does carry this military Persona and he allows people to. To make up their own beliefs when they see the pirate patch over his eye. That is a deliberate thing. That is a deliberate presentation that he's bringing forward. But back to what we're focusing on, this kind of like brotherhood, the sisterhood, the small unit cohesion. In the 1950s and the 1960s, when we were in a different era of warfare and veterans, we had places like American Legion halls and VFW halls. There were things like the Elks Club. There were third spaces. I mean, when I was a kid, I was born in 85. Bowling and the pool hall were like popular places not just for kids, but for adults to go to on Fridays and Saturdays. Those places simply don't exist, especially in the post pandemic world. But really, you know, since 2000, I think things as they've become more online, as relationships, as business, as commerce has become more online, so have we as human beings, as Americans. And we've lost those interpersonal relationships that used to allow people to not just transition out of the military in a more healthy way, but actually do things like network to build community, to get jobs. That type of infrastructure doesn't exist. But for one thing, for veterans now, and that's the GI Bill. So unless a veteran opts to go to school or to join a training program using their GI Bill, where they may be in a community where they're surrounding surrounded by other veterans who are going through the same thing. And that was really the, the thing that saved me was my Student Veterans America group way back in my community college like over 10 years ago. Without having and being lucky enough to land in a place with that community, you're left adrift. Whether or not you served in combat, you went from this small unit cohesion, this thing where you literally trust the person that you work with, with your life, to going back into the civilian world where frankly, you know, my impression, the thing that I felt the most was that everyone was so selfish. No one cared about each other and, and it felt alien to me to come back to the United States and to see people not really care about anyone but themselves.
- [12:19]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, but I don't think that that's just isolated to people who come back from war. I think most of us nowadays feel very isolated. You're saying online culture, you know, we've all lost our third spaces. It's not just, you know, Elks clubs and Lions clubs and bowling alleys. It's everything. It's you know, small town coffee shops, it's main streets. It's all these places that we used to be able to gather that we don't. And we are increasingly isolated and that often draws people to places where there are communities and that is often far right extremism. But it's also church. It's why people end up back in churches and then they do what their church leader says. I think the thing is, is that like the concept of all of these mov been in and the concept of these people that seek out this far right extremism, especially our veterans, is that this civil war as a possibility in America is not so far fetched. Mass violence is not out of the question. Which sort of leads me to the work you're doing with the Task Force Butler Institute and Veterans Fighting Fascism program. And now as I understand it, Task Force Butler is a veteran led nonprofit dedicated to upholding democratic values. Dedicated and countering this rise of authoritarianism. Right. It was founded as, you know, both what the film touched on this sort of threat of political violence and extremism that's escalating through the country, but also as a way to expose and dismantle these networks that are fundamentally endangering our communities. Can you talk to me about your work with Veterans Fighting Fascism and Task Force Butler While I know that coffee is a go to for most people, me included, for some it can cause crazy jitters or a massive crash. Which is why I'm pleased to tell you about Mud Water. Mud Water is different than coffee. It's a mixture of cacao, chai, turmeric and adaptogenic mushrooms to help you feel focused and balanced, not wired. It's a smooth and steady and honestly, according to my husband, it gives you tons of energy. Plus it's ridiculously easy to make. It takes about two minutes with hot water or milk and you're ready to get back to your day. Each ingredient in Mud Water serves a purpose. Their OG blend contains cacao and chai for a hint of caffeine and a hot chocolate flavor, Lion's Mane for focus, Quadriceps to promote natural energy and chaga and Reishi to support a healthy immune system. Maybe you want to try a starter kit? They have a Matcha starter kit, a Turmeric starter kit and a Rest starter kit which will help you unwind and sleep better with their rubiose, floral, chamomile and Thai spices for a cozy end to your day. Ready to make the switch to cleaner Energy? Head to mudwtr.com and grab your starter kit today. Right now, our listeners get an exclusive up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother. When you use the code politicsgirl that's right up to 43% off with the code politicsgirl@m u d w t r.com after you purchase, they'll ask how you found them. Please support the show and let them know we sent you. Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with Mud Water because life is too short for anything less. Less than clean, delicious energy. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I was so excited when Calm approached us to partner with the show because not only is Calm the number one app for sleep and meditation, but it's an app I actually use every single day. I go to sleep every night with a sleep story from Calm and I use their nap meditation at least three times a week when I just need a little break. Calm gives me the perfect 28 minutes to calm, rest and recharge. Calm is an incredible app and there's so much going on right now that it's really easy to get burnt out. But you have to take care of yourself before you can help anyone else. And CALM is a tool that really helps give yourself the chance of living a calmer, happier, healthier life. And that's not just me raving about it. Calm has over 2 million 5 star reviews and you can use them from everything from meditations to expert talks to naps. Right now, Calm has an exclusive offer just for the listeners of our show. Get 40% off a Calm premium subscription membership at calm.com politics politics girl. Go to C-A-L-M.com politicsgirl for 40% off unlimited access to Calm's entire library. That's calm.com politicsgirl and tell Calm you heard about them from me. Can you talk to me about your work with Veterans Fighting Fascism and Task Force Butler?
- [16:34]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah. So Task Force Butler Institute is nonprofit, 501c3 that trains veterans to conduct open source intelligence research so that we can gather evidence of criminality by extremist groups like fascist street gangs like Patriot Front. Those are the red, white and blue looking like Best Buy uniforms. The white mask. They jump out of U Hauls. We infiltrate their spaces, gather evidence of criminality, and then we provide that to both law enforcement and to victims. In the last year, we have seen three federal lawsuits. One was just an outright win against Patriot front with a $3 million judgment. We've seen two other federal lawsuits in Virginia and North Dakota, of all places. The plaintiff settled in that case. We've seen multiple members of their organizations arrested. Unfortunately, they tend not to spend very much time in jail. But one of the things that we do, aside from gather evidence, is we leverage our privilege as veterans to get, basically shame the cops into doing the right thing. We sell a shirt on our, on our website that says cops don't stop Nazis. We do because. Because that's the truth. When cops see these extremist groups marching down the street, they tend to give them wide berth. They allow them to do whatever they want. Whether it's, you know, extremists like Kyle Rittenhouse running around with an M4 on the streets of an American city, or it's the proud boys, you know, marching through Washington D.C. in the weeks leading up to January6, beating the hell out of people. Cops just don't respond to right wing violence. They act like, oh, it's a first amendment protected speech. So we come in and say like, hey, look, I look like you. And if I get in front of the press because I'M a veteran. The press is going to listen to me. So you, Mr. Police Officer, Mr. District Attorney, you either need to do your fucking job or you're going to have a bunch of veterans talking about how you are failing to support and uphold the Constitution of the United States. Right? So, so that is what Task Force Butler does. We, we seek and destroy extremist groups. Veterans Fighting Fascism is much more like the documentaries that you've seen. We sponsored Against All Enemies. We are about public education. And we are not just while we are veterans, we are not just engaging with veterans. One of the things that we do is, is we're encouraging people to start anti fascist book clubs. This is encouraging people to create their own third places, their third spaces where they can join with like minded individuals and start to develop relationships in person. So you start to build trust in person so that you can fight fascism in your own backyard. One of the problems that my generation, I'm a millennial, we have is that we tend to focus super online. You know, local newspapers died after we graduated high school. They just didn't exist anymore. So we tend to focus on what Washington D.C. is doing. Congress and Musk and Trump, that's all we pay attention to. But fascism, when it grows, it grows in your backyard. It's not a top down thing. It's also grassroots. So we're encouraging people to get active, get local, and to go to your school board and make sure the fascists aren't pulling books out of your, your libraries. Because that is how fascism materializes all across the United States. And that's where each of us individually can make the greatest impact.
- [20:02]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, well, that's what they always say. Start local. Right? And also community, community is the way to fight back against this because they want us to feel isolated, they want us to feel alone, they don't want us to get together. I keep saying, like when these people are being rounded up on the street, you see people now starting to be like standing in the way of the person being rounded up and saying, show us your warrant. Prove to me this, because the more people that are doing that, the more people that stand up at a town hall when someone's being dragged out and say, this is their First Amendment right to speak. If 40 people surrounded that person, they would be far less likely to be dragged out by these random rent A cops that are, you know, stopping people from them, their First Amendment right. I mean, one of the things you point out on the Task Force Butler website is that military leaders who served at the highest levels of the Trump administration. We're talking people like General Matthias and General Milley and General Kelly. They all told us that Donald Trump's behavior was fascist. They all cautioned us and warned the country that he was a major threat to democracy. And yet here we are. So can we just talk for a. Just take a little sojourn for a second and to talk about January 6th? Because I know that veterans were involved in that attack on our Capitol, but your organization seems to imply that a lot of veterans actually felt ashamed watching our democracy, you know, the democracy that they had fought for, be attacked like that, especially by radicalized veterans with American flags and, you know, symbols of their military service doing it sort of in their name. Did you find that?
- [21:27]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah, I mean, I. I watched the attack of January 6th from the perspective of the extremists because I was infiltrating these organizations and they live streamed it. Most Americans at this point have seen, you know, what ended up being in Congressional record during the January 6th hearings, and obviously what, you know, CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, and the rest were broadcasting that day. But I watched them go inch by inch by inch, taking the halls that I used to walk as a representative of a veterans organization, as an advocate, as a lobbyist. That day felt to me. It brought me right back to 9 11. But the difference is, on 9 11, when I was watching the towers fall after the planes hit them, I couldn't have done anything about that, that. But in lead up to January 6th, I was infiltrating these extremist organizations, and I was handing off evidence, recorded conversations to them, talking about storming the capital, the state capital of Georgia, recording threats that they were making outside the governor's mansion in Atlanta, saying, traitors get the rope. Right? As they're driving in a pickup armed to the teeth. And none of that, none of that evidence that I handed off made a difference. So I was. I was heartbroken and. And frankly, I don't know if you call it survivor's guilt, like, but it. It crushed me. And to see the symbols of American military service, there were Marine flags, there were flags for some of our veteran service organizations that were being waved along with the Blue Lives Matter flags that were being used to beat cops. Right? All of these symbols of supposed patriotism and service were being corrupted and used as literal weapons against the democracy that we were all sworn to protect. Task Force Butler wasn't necessarily my idea. I was working as an intelligence analyst. I was working as a consultant doing this work. And another group commissioned me to start A nonprofit to train other veterans to do what I did do. We opened applications for people to join our team to, to become trainees for a day. And we received between 4 and 600 applications from Veterans complete with their whole military history. I, I knew that a lot of people were going to apply, so I made it annoying to fill out the application to try and reduce the load. We still got four to 600 people and I had to take it offline and I've never put it back online because the demand for veterans who want to serve their country with task Butler with veterans fighting fascism is greater than the amount of resources that I can possibly get. What is, what is sad, what is frankly frustrating is I've been screaming from the rooftops for four years, five years about the violence that was going to happen on January 6, about the radicalization of veterans, the use of veterans by extremist organizations to gain credibility, to actual, actually plan attacks, to, to end our democracy. And big funders, these so called democracy funders look at what I do is too risky. They don't support it. I haven't had the institutional support to run either of my organizations. I'm doing it for free right now, like it's a side project. So, you know, I, I hope that the right people get this message that there are, are countless veterans who want to serve their country, who want to fight for justice. But I can't keep doing this for free. And there are security risks.
- [25:17]
Lee McGowan
You need backing, you need people to be supporting this. And it's, it's, you know, far better use of someone's money than buying another ad in a billion dollar election that we ended up losing. Right? Like this is a far better use of somebody's money. I mean the idea behind your work seems to be creating, create an opportunity for people to fight back, to reclaim the meaning of patriotism, to shape the role that veterans play in the American political landscape. Your website itself says we help veterans impose social and economic costs on extremist groups within the bounds of the law when our government is failing to do so. And I think that's so important because you're training veterans in research and operations to counter extremism, which everyone out here knows is happening and is growing. You are teaching the skills and the context necessary to keep veterans and their communities safe, as well as gathering evidence and intelligence on dangerous individuals and organizations so that we can do stuff, whether that's in court or where else to fight back against this. Because ultimately, as you guys have pointed out, domestic extremism organizations are Growing in America. They are growing in membership, they are growing in activity levels, they're growing in sophistication and preparation. And we need to be meeting that effectively. And so we need to be funding groups like yours that have all of these veterans willing and lined up to fight back for on behalf of their country, on behalf of democracy, on behalf of the rule of law. We need to be able to fund this counter attack, I guess.
- [26:47]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah, and that's, that's, I mean, one of the things that we're going to be talking about today is what's going on on June 6th.
- [26:54]
Lee McGowan
Exactly.
- [26:55]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah. Veterans Fighting Fascism is, is joining with a bunch of other veterans, veterans organizations, leaders within the veterans community, to rally for veterans. So it's called the Unite for Veterans, Unite for America rally. And on June 6th at 2pm Eastern, we are going to be joining with tens of thousands of not just veterans, but service members, veterans, military families, and everyone who supports us to stand up for the veterans community. And the reason for this, it's not just about defending veterans. Well, yes, it is important and it is our primary mission to defend the promises that were made to veterans to make sure that the American government, you know, provides the health care, provides the support necessary not just to help people transition and not just to help them survive, but to help veterans thrive after they've served their country. But it's also to help people recognize that with unity comes strength. If we can unify around veterans issues which are everyone in politics will say are apolitical or non political or bipartisan. Right. They'll at least say that if we can unify around veterans issues, it makes it much easier to gain ground on all of the other issues. Why? Because veterans represent the full diversity of the United States. The American veterans community is the most diverse cohort of Americans of any kind. You have everything from people who, you know, barely made it through high school or got GEDs to literal fucking astronauts.
- [28:37]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, like Senator Mark Kelly.
- [28:38]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah, we, we have got, you know, folks who are nothing but blue collar, they are trigger pullers in the military. We've got scientists, we've got folks from every state, town, city around the country. We have people from most nations, if not all nations when it comes to immigrants. We've got families that are undocumented. We have people from the LGBTQ community. Right. Every issue that has to do with domestic or fallen foreign policy is a veterans issue.
- [29:14]
Lee McGowan
Can I ask you something, Chris? Is that why you see this administration trying so hard to get rid of dei, to get rid of the LGBT Theater to get rid of the trans, demonize the trans community and then fill the military now with their ranks. They're like lowering the, you know, standards in which you can put in. They're lowering the intelligence level. They are cutting out people that they think don't fit because they rather have a more homogeneous group of people that they can control.
- [29:39]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yes. Full stop. I mean, that's, that's the whole answer. Yes, you're right. I'm glad that you phrased it this way, because to remove DEI is to lower the standards.
- [29:50]
Lee McGowan
Right? Right.
- [29:51]
Christopher Goldsmith
It, it is the precisely the opposite of what all of these racists are out there trying to convince people. If you remove dei, it makes it easier for low performing white men to get jobs that they shouldn't have. I have all of these privileges. Right. I recognize that people who look like me, who aren't as qualified as me certainly shouldn't be competing for the jobs that, that I'm qualified for. It doesn't matter what someone looks like. If I'm competing for a job, I want to get beat by someone who's more qualified than me, not by somebody who, who's, you know, also a white dude. But, you know, their uncle works for a company, right?
- [30:36]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. We've all seen who the Secretary of Defense is.
- [30:39]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah.
- [30:42]
Lee McGowan
This podcast is sponsored by MD Hearing, MD. Hearing makes high quality, easy to use rechargeable hearing aids with exceptional sound quality that are personalized to your hearing profile. With these ridiculous tariffs, everything is just getting more expensive. But if you need a hearing aid, that's something you can't just put off. Which is why I'm pleased to tell you that mDhearing recently cut their price in half. MDhearing was founded by an ENT surgeon who saw how many of his patients needed hearing aids but couldn't afford them. So he made it his mission to develop a quality hearing aid aid that everyone could afford. MDHearing has now sold over 2 million hearing aids and they offer a 45 day risk free trial with 100% money back guarantee. So, you know, you can buy it with confidence. People that use them call them simple to use, durable, better than hearing aids they've had which cost 10 times as much. And as someone with older people in my life who already have hearing aids, I can attest that they are a fortune and very often not covered by insurance. Why? I. I do not know. So get the high quality, affordable hearing aid you deserve with MDHearing. Go to shopmdhearing.com and use the promo code politicsgirl to get a pair of hearing aids for just $297. That's over 90% less than in clinic hearing aids. Plus they're adding a free extra charging case $100 value just for listeners of Politics Girl. That's shop m d hearing.com and use our promo code politicsgirl to get a pair of hearing aids for just 200. So I have a big birthday this year and I'm at the age where I have to really start paying attention to how my skin looks. All my skin, from my face to my hands to my neck. So imagine my pleasure when I found out GoPure wanted to work with the Politics Girl podcast. When I already use GoPure, they didn't have to convince me that their product was something worth talking about because I was already using their Tighten and Lift neck cream. It's so good I've added actually bought it as gifts for other people. We talk so much about caring for the skin on our face, but it's often our neck that gives us away. I keep saying that. Nora Ephron, the writer director who wrote When Harry Met Sally and Sleepless in Seattle, wrote a fantastic book 20 plus years ago called I Feel Bad About My Neck. I think about that book all the time now. Our neck is one of the first places to show aging because the skin on your neck is thinner, more delicate, less oily than our face, meaning it gets crepier faster. But GoPure's firming complex targets the unique concerns of the neck while nourishing and strengthening your skin for a more lifted and youthful look. Their advanced formula is designed to visibly firm, smooth and rejuvenate the delicate skin on your neck and chest in as little to four to eight weeks. So yes, I'm very pleased to talk about GoPure. It's cruelty free, paraben free and sulfate free, so you know you're getting effective care without any of those harsh chemicals. Tighten, lift and restore the elasticity in your neck because your skincare routine shouldn't stop at your jawline. For a limited time, our listeners get 25% off GoPure with the code Politics Girl at checkout. Just head to gopurebeauty.com and use the code politicsgirl and you're all set. And after you buy, do us a favor. When they ask you where you heard about Gopure, tell them it was from our show gopure.com politics politics girl. I'm telling you, it works. Yeah, we've all seen who the Secretary of Defense is.
- [34:00]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah, Pete Hegseth is there's some history there. So in 2008, I was running around pissed off about the war, running around with an anti war organization this guy was leading. Before it was Concerned Veterans for America, it was called Vets for Freedom. And it was this, this rabidly pro Iraq war group. The fact that somehow this guy has managed to rebrand himself as someone who's been skeptical of, of the global war on terrorism, it. It blows my mind. And part of the reason that Pete Hegseth is where he is today is because billionaire benefactors and I know this sounds like conspiracy theory shit, but it's not because I've been there. There. The Koch brothers recognized that he had potential and they invested in him. They gave him the money to run these nonprofit organizations that he just flew the money and ran them into the ground, but they kept investing in him. Now he's the Secretary of fucking Defense. On the left or on the anti war side, whatever you want to call what I was at the time. There's been no investment. There's been no long term investment. There's been no mentorship. That is part of why we are here today. That is why Democrats feel like they don't have a deep bench. And that's why Joe Biden was running for office in 2024 when he probably shouldn't. Because Democrats, for some reason, and I'm putting this on the political donors for some reason are like, I'm not going to invest until October before the, before the election. Like I've been around now for a few of these cycles. And that political mindset carries over into the nonprofit mindset. And that's where I've been working for years. And I've been watching people wait to invest in leaders until it's too fucking late. Yeah, until, you know, Pete Hegseth and I kind of started on evening playing field. He was an officer, I was enlisted. He's now the Secretary of Defense. And I'm still strapping together, you know, like duct taping together nonprofits to fight fascism.
- [36:18]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. But this is, this is right across the board. Again, it brings us back to the thing that you said before about, you know, it's not just veterans that don't have third spaces. It is the entire left that is not invested. We're looking at a 40 year plan come to fruition with Donald Trump as the leader. This is not Donald Trump's brilliant brainchild that we're living through right now. It's Project 2025 and the Heritage foundation and it, the our entire Supreme Court is Federalist Society 40 Year Plan. Like these are big organizations funded by people like the Kochs who have said, here is our plan to reverse engineer this country. So we reverse workers rights, reverse women's rights, reverse civil rights. We don't want any of this. We're going to take it back to here and we're going to plan to do it. They have long term plans. They invested in propaganda. They invested in people like Rush Limbaugh, invested in people like Fox News, invested in Ben Shapiro, invested in Candace Owens. Like you and I are doing the same thing. I'm here bootstrapping it myself, trying to tell people the truth when people are spending literal hundreds of millions of dollars to give Tim Pool $400,000 an episode so he can lie to the American public. So we're dealing with the same thing. And it doesn't even need to be a long term plan for an election. It's a long term plan for a mindset of a country that we need to really get right with. I think, because I think if our goal here is to resist fascism, we have to do it in an organized and professional way. We can't just be reactionary or haphazard or show up at the October before the November election. We need to go on offense. We need to be out here fighting back. And I think that's why we're so upset with our Congress people right now. Because there's a handful of people that are meeting the moment and the rest of them are trying to pretend we live in 1990. And it's infuriating to watch. You know, personally watching your work and reading your literature, I like how clear you are that white supremacists and fascist organizations are out here. They are out here terrorizing Americans and they're not really paying a price because that is how I feel. And it's incredibly infuriating. Like we were told years ago by the FBI that white supremacist organizations were one of the biggest threats to America and we seemingly did nothing about it. We know our police are infiltrated by these types of people. Now we have these groups like you're talking about the proud boys and 3 percenters and the Oath Keepers and these kind of guys. And then we have a president, a president telling them to stand back and stand by and pardoning the January Sixers and calling them patriots and importing white supremacists from South Africa because of some non existent white genocide. So it's like we've lost our minds. And our side, the left, whoever you're Going to call yourself whatever is not fascist, whatever is not authoritarianism, whatever label you give yourself, we need to be fighting back in a far more organized, diligent, long term funded way.
- [39:03]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah, and, and what you're getting at, I mean, the phrase that you used is the name of, of my substack that I'm growing into another podcast on offense. Because if, if your only plan, and this was the most frustrating thing, you know, whether it was the movie War Game or any of the scenario planning that I've done over the last four years, talking about a potential second Trump presidency and the way that the techno fascists would ingratiate themselves with him and gradually take over our government.
- [39:36]
Lee McGowan
And just if people aren't clear, techno fascism in this case is the people that are like these big tech overlords, these edge Lords, the Peter Thiels and the Elon Musk's, and in many ways the Mark Zuckerbergs, these guys that have way too much money. And in many ways they want to reimagine our society based around them at the top, much like a feudal system would be. And with them at the top, they have mostly aristocracy and the rest of us is serfs. But instead of like towing the land, we are serfs in a techno feudalism. Online serfs. They have access to our data, access to our, you know, full time surveillance, this kind of stuff.
- [40:13]
Christopher Goldsmith
That is a brilliant way to, to explain that. So thank you for doing that. I'm going to use the, just use that metaphor moving forward.
- [40:21]
Lee McGowan
They're not interested in a multicultural, pluralistic society. Right? They're not. They're actively targeting minority groups. They're actively targeting our democracy.
- [40:30]
Christopher Goldsmith
They're.
- [40:30]
Lee McGowan
They want to build this homogenic country that they would prefer. Right. And however each one of them sees it, I'm sure is actually a little bit different because you have the Christian nationalists that want a white Christian nation, and then you have the techno feudalists that want it a little bit different. But the gist is they would prefer a nation much like Putin has in Russia, you know, top down control, or what Orban is doing in Hungary. So your organization is out here providing resources and the support necessary to fight back. But, but I feel like the core of your organization is service to the nation, right?
- [41:03]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yes.
- [41:03]
Lee McGowan
A stronger civil society to counter this domestic extremism that we know is out here. I think one of the things I liked when I read your work is that the goal you've set out is not to harm those, not to belittle those who have fallen for misinformation or fallen for radicalization, but to encourage them to see the truth. Truth and to leave what they're doing to, to acknowledge that the path they're following will only lead to their own destruction. Could you just expand on that a little bit for me?
- [41:35]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah. So I. For folks who haven't seen it yet, the Against All Enemies documentary is, is free. If you just search on YouTube against all enemies, you'll see it on the Midas Touch network. We made it so that anyone could watch this at any time. You can also watch it on Apple TV or, you know, any of your major streaming services. What I think made that documentary so compelling, Aside from I'm a main character, of course, I'm biased, but it, no.
- [42:03]
Lee McGowan
It'S an excellent documentary. We did a whole podcast on it. It is brilliant. Brilliant. And it plays like a thriller in many ways. Like, you get very anxious watching it, but you're like, I can't believe this is happening. It's such an excellent documentary and I think everyone should really watch it.
- [42:17]
Christopher Goldsmith
It put my personal story, my evolution and my, my anti fascist work against the personal story background and pro fascist work of the leader of the Texas 3 percenters. And it basically got to the root of we're both trying to do the same thing. We both believe that we are serving our country. We both believe that we are fighting for freedom, fighting for our Constitution. The difference is I read and that guy doesn't and, and a guy like Stuart Rhodes comes along who's got a Yale law degree, who's a veteran, he's got the eye patch so everyone thinks he's a Purple Heart veteran when he's not, you know, and he says, oh, I've got a Yale law degree. So when I'm starting the Oath Keepers, I'm going to interpret the Constitution for you and me. When I'm a 21 year old dumbass who's got a high school education and then got up by the war, I'm ripe for manipulation. You know, I swore an oath to the Constitution before I ever read it. Like, yeah, okay, I read it in high school, but I didn't understand every amendment. I didn't understand.
- [43:27]
Lee McGowan
Most people don't, Chris. No.
- [43:29]
Christopher Goldsmith
So when I was 21, I was ripe for manipulation and I'm just really lucky because I was a Ron Paul guy and Stuart Rhodes was too. I feel like I'm lucky that he and I, I may have never been in the same room, otherwise maybe I would have got dragged with him. But it comes again. We're coming from the same place. It's just misinformation and disinformation that has polluted their interpretation of the founding documents of our country and the ethos of the system of laws that we all live under together. They believe in their interpretation. Just. Just like the Westboro Baptist Church thinks that they're Christian and they think that it is the Christian thing to do, to use slurs and to protest soldiers funerals. That is what the 3 percenters and the Oath Keepers are. They are just the Westboro Baptist Church's equivalent in Christianity.
- [44:29]
Lee McGowan
Right? Yeah. So listen, how do we help you? Right? Like, it's clear you're only one part of an ecosystem working together to fight extremism. You partner with lots of other leading experts in domestic terrorism groups that share your values, who create projects and protect the vulnerable. You're out here doing amazing work. But like, how does one join Task Force Butler or Veterans Against Fascism? And if we can't join, how do we support your work? How do we convince our rich friends that might buy a $50 million TV spot and say like, hey, put it here because we have, you know, thousands of veterans who would like to fight back and would like to be organized and would like to be on offense against the this. We need to invest in the alternative to fascism the way we invested in fascism. If we are on the right.
- [45:15]
Christopher Goldsmith
Yeah. So if people are listening to this, pull over your car and start taking notes because there are a few different things that you can do. So first, the most emergent thing that you need to do is go to unite the number four vets. Unite4vets.org that is in preparation for the June 6th rally where we are going to be on the National Mall again, uniting for veterans Friends to unite for America. The Dropkick Murphy's are going to be putting on a free show. We're not selling tickets or anything. We just want you to show up 2pm Eastern on Friday, June 6, which is is the anniversary of D Day for me as an anti fascist. I, I love the fact that it is on the anniversary of the largest anti fascist operation in history, which was the storming of Normandy. It was United States army, an army veteran storming the beaches of Normandy to fight fascism. I could not find a better date to hold this on. But Unite for Vets is not just a June 6 thing. We are making plans to continue fighting beyond that. If you can donate to support this organization that we are forming, please do. If you are interested in helping to facilitate the training of veterans to conduct open source intelligence research to track down and impose legal consequences on fascists. Whether they're members of the Proud Boys or they're corrupt cops, it doesn't matter. It's the same skill set in the same legal system. Go to taskforcebutler.org you can make a donation there. You can sign up on our email list. If you are interested in helping everyday Americans, not just veterans, learn how to fight fascism in their own backyard, go to veterans fightingfascism.org there we have instructions manuals on how any person, not just vets, any person, can start an anti fascist book club to build a third space in their own community to fight fascism in their own backyard. We will walk you through your first six meetings. Beyond that, you don't need us. My goal is to make it so that I could disappear tomorrow and the anti fascist movement takes everything I know and works works without me. Beyond that, if you want to support my work directly. I'm about to have a child, so I'm about to go a little bit quiet. By the time people listen to this, I may be a dad. Just so you know. On offense.substack.com that is my personal newsletter. That is where I give people the news and information that they need to understand things like techno fascism and the role of Elon Musk in shaping foreign policy and domestic. I tell people how to fight for veterans on a micro and macro level. And lastly, if you like podcasts, the Find out podcast is my new venture that I've joined a bunch of guys from White Dudes for Harris. We are trying to create a space for, for white dudes because white dudes are the problem for Democrats and, and America and, and we are also, you know, to, to be totally fair to everybody. Like a lot of folks have felt unwelcome. A lot of folks who look like me have similar backgrounds to me. I'm very privileged to be from New York. Right. So I have just got a, A, a better relationship with the Democratic Party than someone who lives in a rural area. Right. Just because of exposure. What we are trying to do with the Find out podcast is show men. Not only are you welcome in the Democratic Party, but here is how you can leverage things like your privilege and your identity to help everyone and, and not just yourself. And as someone whose life has been dedicated to service, I for folks who don't haven't internalized this yet, I want to convince you that helping people is the most fulfilling way of life that you can have some people, you know, do it through the church. Some people do it through volunteering. There are many, many ways that we talk about in the Find out podcast, which people can find@findoutpodcast.substack.com or anywhere that you listen to podcasts. We are helping men get involved in other forms of patriotism and a healthy form of masculinity.
- [49:41]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. Which is so essential because we hear nothing these days. If we're not hearing about the male loneliness epidemic, if we're not hearing about the. The incel community, if we're not hearing about a man that shot up something or a man that killed himself, there is a definite problem going on. But like you're saying, if we stop thinking about just ourselves and how we're feeling and we start helping other people, we start reaching out. We start finding third spaces to find other men or other people that we can join together with in. In service of others, not just in service of ourselves. This world owes me. I deserve this. Give me this. I think that's what makes people so unhappy, is that they feel that they're not being given what they are owed. Whereas it's really like, what could you give JFK style? You know, ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. You could also put that into your fellow man. I have to say, like, I found myself very inspired reading your website. I don't know who wrote it. Maybe it was you. Was it you who wrote it? But I loved reading in the belief that you think America is, and I'm going to quote you, an inclusive, complex, and turbulent nation defined by moments in which we approach one another with open arms and reject those who seek to define our nation by a single race or creed or religion or ideology. And I also really loved that you sent a message directly to your adversaries. Right. It says to our adversaries. And you said, for those who wish to use violence or the threat of violence to achieve political goals in the United States of America, let Task Force Butler be a warning and a promise. America is watching you. And I think that is wonderful. I think a lot of us are seeking people who want to stand up, who want to fight back, who want to go on offense. And I really just hope we can go to uniteforveterans.org and help out with the march, or we can go to Task Force Butler and help out with that project, or tell other people about it, or talk to our veteran family members and say, join. Join with this group and let's grow it. Because ultimately we deserve A better country than this. We don't deserve a country in which we're having a military birthday party for a man who's a draft dodger. Like, we can't be doing stuff like that. We have to be using our skills and our patriotism in which to help other people, not just ourselves. And I think you guys are doing that every day with your work, and I want to make sure that we support you moving forward.
- [52:00]
Christopher Goldsmith
Thank you so much. And I do have to give credit. It wasn't I alone who wrote that. That was a collaborative effort. Effort with my co founders and particularly my first chief researcher, who is a brilliant person. I am so thankful for your presentation of the fight for democracy. I have to say that we exist in a space as creators, as podcast hosts, as people who create stuff on social media. We live in a space where the algorithm rewards outrage and panic. And I am so thankful to talk to someone who does not do that, because not only is it worse off for audiences, you know, they get a dopamine hit because they feel like, oh, now they're informed, but they're panicked, so they get addicted to their phone. You are helping people actually learn that they can sign off, get offline, and put in the work to build community. And there is nothing more important than that.
- [53:02]
Lee McGowan
So.
- [53:03]
Christopher Goldsmith
So thank you.
- [53:03]
Lee McGowan
Well, thank you, Chris. I mean, look, you're about to be a dad. I started this whole project because I'm a mom. And our children do not deserve this version of America. They deserve something far better. And it's not about going back. It's about going forward and making something that's really worthwhile for all of us. I want to thank you so much for joining us today. Honestly, you fought for our country overseas. Now you're fighting for it at home. You're really showing us what heroism and patriotism looks like. And. And I'm really so grateful. Thank you.
- [53:30]
Christopher Goldsmith
Thank you so much.
- [53:33]
Lee McGowan
So that was Chris Goldsmith reminding us, when fascism grows, it grows in our backyard, that we need to get active locally to tear this movement out from its roots, to stop it in its infancy, and we need to do it together. Because as Chris says, with unity comes strength. We need to support those willing to fight back, willing to step up, willing to bring their skills out of retirement. Retirement to support our democracy and rule of law. I don't know about you, but listening to that, I believe Veterans Fighting Fascism and Task Force Butler need our help. We should make sure any veteran who wants to stand up for the Constitution they swore to uphold gets the opportunity I want to thank Chris for joining us and you for caring enough about democracy to be here. Now go to uniteforvets.org and check out the June 6 rally to show your support. Until next week. PGM do you want to get this podcast ad free delivered directly to your inbox along with my kitchen rants? Then please consider becoming a member of the Politics Girl Premium family by going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. If you are already a premium member of this podcast, thank you for your support. And if you're not a member, please consider being a patron of my work. Mainstream news is only giving you a version of billionaire backed propaganda at this point, so if you want real knowledge, it's essential to support those of us out here still bringing it to you. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode but also on politicsgirl.com and as always, please like and share these podcasts so we can grow our audience because the more people who have access to this kind of information, the better. As always, thank you for your time and support. Politics Girl Podcast is written and performed by me, Lee McGowan in partnership with the Midas Media Network and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.