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The PoliticsGirl Podcast
What if we Tried Something Different?: A Conversation with Joanna Johnson
01:03:27
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- [00:00]
Joanna Johnson
There's a flaw in a society whose economic ideology and goal is mass production and mass consumption. What are we doing? How long do we think? How. How is it even rational to create an economic system that isn't based on intelligent design, that isn't based on what we need and how we progress, that isn't based on innovation and awareness and progress the future? It's based on making a bunch of crap so people buy a bunch of crap.
- [00:48]
Lee McGowan
Hello and welcome to the Politics Girl podcast. I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it.
- [00:53]
Joanna Johnson
I don't know about you, but I.
- [00:54]
Lee McGowan
Am feeling overwhelmed lately. The Trump administration's plan to flood the zone with so many terrible things that.
- [01:00]
Joanna Johnson
We can't manage is.
- [01:01]
Lee McGowan
Is proving to be very effective. And my job of being informed so I can sort through all of the things and bring you the most essential things has been hard work, yes, but also on my soul. And I imagine if you were paying attention, you often feel the same way. So today, instead of just focusing on the Republicans terrible budget or the hateful immigration roundups, or the importing of white supremacists from South Africa, that terrifying meetup.
- [01:25]
Joanna Johnson
Of the world's worst leaders, and the.
- [01:27]
Lee McGowan
Tech billionaires in Saudi Arabia, we are going to back it up, way up to a 30,000 foot view and talk about two major ideas that I'm not sure we all understand as well as we could capitalism and socialism. Of course, current events will still make an appearance, but if you want to fix something, it is best to know how it works. To help me do this, I have asked one of my favorite online creators to join me. A high school teacher irl, Joanna Johnson's influence extends far beyond her classrooms. Under the handle of unlearn16, Joanna uses humor and sarcasm to expand the knowledge of her well over 4 million followers on topics like prejudice, misinformation and inequality through short form videos, live streams, Q&As. And she is also the host of the incredibly popular podcast Unlearn 16. Class is in session.
- [02:14]
Joanna Johnson
She is also a fellow Canadian who.
- [02:16]
Lee McGowan
Knows far too much about America. So without further ado, please welcome my guest teacher, social media superstar and upcoming author of her first book, Joanna Johnson.
- [02:26]
Joanna Johnson
Welcome, Joanna.
- [02:28]
Thank you. So, social media soup. Do I get a cape with the superstar?
- [02:31]
Dude, you're like well over 4 million followers at this point, my friend. So yeah, superstar, everyone loves you. I feel the need to buy a hat that I wear really high on my head just to like represent.
- [02:44]
I'll send you one.
- [02:46]
So can you Imagine me in one. I would look so good. I'd be such a. Pick me. That's so hilarious. Okay, well, thank you for joining me. You know, it's clear. Clearly there's a lot you and I could talk about. I've had the pleasure of doing your podcast, unlearn 16 classes in session a number of times. And you and I can go off because we're both nerds and we never really run out of topics because we like to talk about this stuff, and it fires us up.
- [03:07]
Absolutely.
- [03:08]
But I'm having you on today because we want to take a broader look, Right. Because I think people are kind of inundated with so much of the, you know, flood the zone that they're overwhelmed. And so what I really want to do is look at this episode through the lens of capitalism and socialism, which are two concepts that I think are often misunderstood and miscategorized. But also because I think that you and I both agree that sometimes the best place to start to understand something is at the beginning. And we need to understand the sort of most basic principles if we want to start changing anything.
- [03:37]
If we don't, I think. And it's great that we're starting here, because when you don't start here, when you don't have a fundamental understanding of language and the discourse used, it just gets weaponized, and these words get thrown out as aggressive stances and demonize these words. And people really, truly have a lot of the times, no idea. And that's not because they're not intelligent. That's not because they're not capable of understanding it. It's because it's not their world. Right. They're working at their job and with their families and trying to make sure everything works out. And meanwhile, we're throwing words, even words as basic as socialism or communism or fascism, and. And. And we're talk. Habeas Corp. We're throwing Latin at him now.
- [04:21]
I know Latin now.
- [04:22]
And they listen to people for the most part, and then they make such quick judgments. Because if you were to research everything. Listen, I have a background. If I was to research everything I read, my head would explode like it really, truly would. So you kind of have to pick and choose. And. And having this basis, I think, is at least, you know, the good start. So they. They can understand the beginning line.
- [04:47]
Yeah. It also shows you the importance of having sources that you trust, because then you can let them do a lot of that pre work for you. And that's sort of the shame of what happened with legacy media. You know, we used to be able to trust our news was telling us the truth, and now we know that, especially down here in the U.S. you know, our news is owned by one of six corporations, and they're telling us what best suits them.
- [05:09]
You guys are also getting rid of, like, NPR and pbs, but we're real.
- [05:12]
Geniuses down here right now. Jesus. Okay, so listen, I'm gonna do a brief historical rundown just to situate people as to where we are, and then I will let you, the actual teacher, run.
- [05:24]
Do you have a chalkboard?
- [05:26]
No, I wish I did. Can you imagine me in a chalkboard? I would love it. Okay, so listen. Yeah, let's start at the beginning, the American Revolution, right? The War of Independence. It was followed by the 1776. Yeah, baby. Wait for it. Wait for it. Okay, so the American Revolution, the War of Independence. It was followed by the French Revolution, where the French rose up against their own monarchs and aristocracy, calling for a greater rule of and by the people. Right after the French monarchy was overthrown, the French people did their own Declaration of Independence, which they called the Declaration of the Rights of Man, and that served as their constitution. Now, history tells us the main difference between the revolution in America and the revolution in France was the focus on freedom versus equality. Americans believed that freedom was the most important quality in their new government.
- [06:14]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [06:15]
And the leaders in France, while believing in freedom, also believed that their government should work to assure some form of equality. And that was the liberty, equality, fraternity situation. Right? So as the effect of the French Revolution began to spread across Europe, this idea of freedom and equality and brotherhood kind of changed the beliefs of citizens simply having equal rights under some form of democracy to the idea that the amount of wealth and property could potentially also be equal across society. And so this idea of financial equality, equality of opportunity, equality of class was the central belief behind the birth of socialism, which then evolved into communism, which are two new theories that society got at the emergence of the 1800s. And I really want to point that out to people like, these didn't exist before the 1800s. Like, this is quite fascinating because I often think we need something new, and I'm going to carry on, but I don't think people realize we could start something new. We could create something new that doesn't have a name.
- [07:15]
We didn't figure out life, and we're like, we're good. Yeah, yeah. Marxism had to happen after capitalism because Marx is inherently a critique of capitalism. So they have to. They have to go in in tow.
- [07:28]
But yes, yes, that's the thing. So like communism was born out of socialism. You can't really understand socialism without understanding capitalism. Since we're looking at this through the lens of America, let's start with capitalism, since that's how we kind of function. Right. Just so people know, capitalism is an economic system where private individuals own and control their businesses, their property, their capital. What are called the means of production. The amount of goods and services that are produced are based on a system of supply and demand in which businesses try to manufacture quality products efficiently and inexpensively as possible so they can make the best profit. Right. In its purest form, capitalism is called free market capitalism or laissez faire capitalism, which is a French term that basically means hands off. Right. Like, don't tell me what to do, the government's not going to tell me what to do with my business. Right. The Republicans favor laissez faire capitalism because they want it to be completely unrestrained. Right. They want the companies to be able to do whatever they want. No minimum wage, no unions, no OSHA requirements for the safety of your worker, you know, no age requirements for your workers. Right. No break requirements. This is the kind of thing we're actually seeing happen now. All these things that we had are being rolled back because they want more hands off government for capitalism so you can make more of a product. So just, you know, dump your toxic waste into the river, let your 13 year old workers work overnight, you know, 21 hours a day, you know, to make a product that might or may not kill people.
- [08:51]
Right.
- [08:51]
That's, that's the kind of capitalism that they're looking at. But most capitalistic countries don't function like that. And for a long time America didn't function like that because we had rules on it.
- [09:01]
I don't know if there's a pure form of capitalism anywhere in the world.
- [09:04]
Right. Without any rules is what you say.
- [09:06]
We have always had rules. We have always had a democratic form of socialism which you're going to obviously get to where there have always been some degree of government intervention, because everybody understands that hands off, just like you described, ends up putting us into an absolute disaster of dog eat dog and we all lose at the end of that game.
- [09:30]
Yeah. And honestly, socialism was created in many ways as a response to this. Right. They were like, how can we get to this part where the people from the top don't have everything? And so in some ways it comes out to be whether it's coming from the aristocracy or pure laissez faire capitalism. We need some rules to make it more fair for everyone. Does that seem right so far?
- [09:51]
Yeah. And I think the cool distinction here, because everybody loves to use this word too, the cool distinction is you're going to have every person for themselves in capitalism. And I'd even say every man for themselves because, let's be honest, they never wanted women in it anyways. And apparently trying to kick them out as we speak. And then socialism for me symbolizes. Not perfectly, before everybody gets in their comment section symbolizes the idea to achieve equity, not equality. That would be communism. And remember, we're always talking at this point about an economic theory, an economic application of what we should do, because in all reality, capitalism and democracy, when we talk about political and economic ideologies, they've never gone properly hand in hand, ever. In essence, I think they're very antithetical. I think the idea of a free market capitalism and then this ridiculous notion that everybody has a say is absolute garbage. So you have this idea of socialism saying we should have something that's more equitable, meaning the CEO can still amass a fortune, but how big of a fortune should he be allowed to amass? Yeah, workers. He can still utilize workers and decide pay scale dependent on skill set and supply and demand of product. However, how much can I push those workers to squeeze out their labor in order to amass my fortune? That needs to be regulated. We are going to utilize the environment in whatever way we can in order to build our products. Is there ever a pushback about how quickly we get to do that? Are we ever going to talk about sustainability and a longer forecast about how we should utilize the environment but still secure things for future generations so we don't go through it oh, so quickly. And then you have the shift to communism, which says everybody in a society that is doing something significant should have equal output of that society. Meaning in some ways the garbage collector and the doctor are of equal importance. In fact, if the garbage collector doesn't do their job, people get sick more often, often. And we have a breakdown in society. We need even more doctors. And everything goes askew in a communist society, though considering nobody's. By the way, that's never existed anywhere either. Never in the history of the world has the idea of Marxism ever, ever been put into play. Because the heads of communist nations amassed fortune left, right and center. So it's never been done. But the idea is lovely in the sense that it's very much. I'd use the term kibbutz or I'd use the term like, you know, a community based. Everybody has to do their job, so we all survive. It is a beautiful concept. And I think in small doses, we've seen it work quite, quite perfectly in small communities, in indigenous communities, in some, in some capacities, we've seen it work because they know if I don't do my job, we don't eat. If they don't do their job, we don't grow food, they don't, they don't take care of the kids. And it's necessary. Right. There's an interdependency there. But when you do it on a mass scale, I just think, like everything else, imperfection creeps in.
- [13:15]
Lee McGowan
Yeah.
- [13:15]
Joanna Johnson
And if you add capitalism to that profit making, then it changes the whole game again. Right. Like, it seems to me, looking at the US These days, that the Republicans and their tech overlords want us to, to return to some form of the workhouses of the 18th and 19th century, you know, and most of us can agree, we don't want that. The majority of us can agree that we don't think we should have child labor or slave labor. Again, like, that would be something we.
- [13:41]
Lee McGowan
Would want to avoid.
- [13:42]
Joanna Johnson
And yet you see the Republicans rolling back childhood labor laws, rolling back social safety net programs, rolling back public education so that more children are available to go to the factories. You know, we even have the head of Trump's financial committee saying, you know, what we can look forward to in the future is you work in a factory and so does your child, and then you all know where you're going to be for the rest of your life, and won't that be lovely? And you're like, no, that won't be lovely. You want us to go back in time to some Dicksonian version that America really very rarely ever had.
- [14:15]
Listen, the hilarious part about this right now is in one breath they're saying that, they're saying, you know, we want to go back to this way of doing. Well, they're not necessarily saying we're going to get rid of unions there, implying it. They're not necessarily saying a lot of things, but they want to go back. And on the other hand, they're tariffing the hell out of countries who have that. So what they're saying is, well, we've had to establish all of these unions, and we've had to establish all of these labor laws and environmental regulations, and if we can't destroy those, we want to tariff the heck out of countries so they can't get away with what we did, what the United States did. For such a significant amount of time in order to build up their nation. You know, when, when I look down that tariff list and I was talking about it today to some students and all the, my kids are like, these countries I've never heard of, Trump is slamming them with tariffs. I'm like, well, that's because these tiny little countries have, have baby economies, internationally speaking. Right. They're just burgeoning, like they're just entering into this. So if they do not put up a tariff, they will never, never be able to build any sort of economic basis of their country. They won't be able to diversify their economy, they won't be able to jump into the international system. And, and the United States, hilariously enough, that's exactly how they became a superpower. So when Trump talks about tariffs, it's not because it made the money. That's ridiculous. It's not because it paid for all the things that you guys now have because it wasn't paying for a damn thing. It's because it protected shoe factories. So they weren't buying British shoes anymore. And they actually could build up American companies because they were a brand new country in a world of empires. Now the United States is the empire and they want to figure out how do I crush all these little companies and all these little countries from heaven help us, raising up, rising up and becoming an active player in the globalized system.
- [16:27]
Yeah, a lot like what Amazon did to all of our small businesses and Walmart did to all of our Main street businesses. You take something gigantic and you make it so they cannot, the little companies, the little stores, the little countries cannot compete with the big superpower and then they go under or you buy them out.
- [16:44]
And it's the most anti capitalist thing in the world to have monopoly formation. As soon as you have a winner in Monopoly, and I mean the game that nobody wants to play because it takes too goddamn long. As soon as you have a winner, right? As soon as somebody has all the freaking money and all the power and you have what those, those properties along the right hand side that earn you like $75 and everybody else, you're done, the game is over. And, and I would argue that's where we are in the United States. And, and you know, when people speak about the we, I also find this fantastically stupid capitalists, people who love capitalism. Republicans, Yay, capitalism. And then they'll talk about conspiratorial theories about the wef. I'm like, those people, what the tell to people at the WEF is The World Economic Forum. And to put it loosely, it's a bunch of very, very rich people and companies play masters of the universe. That's not conspiracy. That's endgame capitalism. And for any Republican or any individual who doesn't like that, what you really are saying is you don't like capitalism. You don't like billionaires puppeteering everybody in the, in the region because it's anti democratic. It goes against you having personalized political power and choice. And you know what? You're right. But follow that through because what you're saying is capitalism is the problem. Right. The fact that people can amass and what we've done. And I mean really it's been since Clinton and, and it was, you know, he had his own problems, but he's the one that really started deregulating the banks and deregulating all of those regulations that were put in place in order to make.
- [18:34]
Well, Reagan did a bunch too.
- [18:35]
Reagan, of course he did. But I was surprised by, by Clinton because the 2008 housing crisis and all of that was deregulated under him. In order for individuals to cause the crisis in 2008 and by the way, cause the crisis and then make billions because they bet against them.
- [18:55]
Yeah. And then the government bailed them out, which is not free market capitalism.
- [18:59]
Anybody who says there's free market capitalism has no idea what they're talking about.
- [19:04]
Yeah.
- [19:06]
Lee McGowan
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- [21:20]
Joanna Johnson
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- [21:23]
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- [22:11]
Joanna Johnson
Anybody who says there's free market capitalism has no idea what they're talking about. You've always had winners. You've always had people that have more of a say, that have more knowledge, that can disperse that knowledge and limit what other people know. And in that Very breath, even with not ill intent. Okay, so let's assume everybody's super nice and they don't want to be horrible people. People even without the ill intent.
- [22:37]
The game is broken at this point. The game is over. If anyone's ever played Monopoly and you know the person has Boardwalk and Park Place and they have hotels on that, it's like everyone else is gonna lose. They have everything. And we are at this stage now where we really need to consider flipping the board and building something different. It's just that we're all so used to capitalism when we're all used to this idea. Yeah, it's terrifying. It's terrifying. But like, I feel like it's fair to say that America is quickly devolving into a new Gilded Age, right? Where the wealth gap is so extraordinary and the monopolies of companies are running almost every industry and the very richest have all the politicians in their pockets. Not all of them, there are some good ones, but you know, one whole party. And like the first Gilded Age, the workers and the citizens are an afterthought to this profit and power that we're looking at right now. And I think that if you're paying attention, you can see that that's what's happening. And we know it didn't work the first time and it's not going to work this time either. So we're going to have to create something different.
- [23:35]
Well, it led to the Depression is.
- [23:37]
What it's led to 100%.
- [23:38]
When people talk about these concepts, they want you to get lost in the weeds. And percentages and statistics and all of this stuff that by the way, they can flat out make up, I have no idea. But forget about all of that. Rationally think this. You want to have an economic philosophy or an ideology that is sustainable, that lasts a long period of time, that doesn't have huge ebbs and flows, that people can't depend on it, right? You do not want. And you want to mass produce stuff, you're going to mass produce it for who? Well, you want to mass produce it for the people that are in that economy. And for the people in that economy to buy it, they need a good job. So right before the first Great Depression. Right before the Depression, the first Great Depression, because I feel you had people like the Rockefellers, the Carnegie's, the Morgans, these people had all of the money. In fact, when the stock market started to dip, they themselves poured their money into the stock market in order to save it. Now here's the funny when the stock Market bottomed out. Who do you think became even wealthier, right? You wait for something that, that used to be $10, whatever, to pennies a share, and then I buy it because I have that much money and I have a house and I have food and I have all of that because this isn't really going to affect me. And then what do I do with that stock? I wait. That's the true benefit of being wealthy, is the ability to wait. That's it. And to have enough resources banked away that you can sustain those lows. Because if you know those lows are only going to last so long and you are just going to wait. And in that moment is where you can buy up, you know, huge blocks of homes and infrastructure and you can buy stocks in companies and you can.
- [25:40]
Do farmland and water and just wait.
- [25:46]
Wait until it's ready to make you, you know, even more conceivable money. But I have an initial problem with capitalism and I always have. And I, and lots of people, you know, love to condemn me for it. And initially always, you know, oh, you're such a comm. You're Canadian. Socialist, communist. Listen, there's a flaw in a society whose economic ideology and goal is mass production and mass consumption. What are we doing? How long do we think? How, how is it even rational to create an economic system that isn't based on intelligent design, that isn't based on what we need and how we progress, that isn't based on innovation and awareness and progress of the future? It's based on making a bunch of crap. So people buy a bunch of crap. That's the goal. That's the end game of capitalism. You look up any economic sort of progressive ideology. It starts with agricultural, right? And then what do you do? Okay, well, you have an agricultural society. You want to specify. Okay, cool. So I'm going to make bananas. So as you make bananas and you're distributing all the world, you want to start making money, you want to build a surplus, then you're going to use that surplus to do what? To try to diversify, you strengthen that. And then you try to diversify your economy. And as you try to diversify your economy, why are you doing that? So you create something a little more sustainable for the future. So if there's any bumps along the road, because your final goal is to make enough money and create enough of an economy where your people are buying, are making it and buying it in rope, and we're going to set up fictitious money that we are going to manufacture. Now I Understand, you're going to have economists saying, joanna, it's based money and the value of money are based on all of these little things. Even if. Even if we go back and we say it's based on how much gold you have, who cares?
- [27:53]
Can you eat it?
- [27:56]
I know Donald Trump's house is built of gold, but I don't know why. This is the value, right? We created. We gave the illusion of creating objective measures of money in order to empower countries that already had whatever money or whatever piece of the pie that we considered, or we then said, that's the objective piece. They are the better economy. And usually that's done with a lot of military force.
- [28:27]
We are basing it on who has the most money, who has the most product, who has the most output, this kind of thing. And I realize now, I think it's quite interesting now that we have a social media world and we have TikTok and we have these things that people are seeing people in other countries the way they never used to before. We used to watch television or watch movies, and that was dictated to us. But now we're watching people in Denmark, in Sweden, we're watching people who left America and now live in Spain. And they're like, I'm done work at 5 and here I am having a wine, you know, in the piazza that I can walk everywhere to. And Americans are going, hold on. What? You know, and you can see people in France now, your boss can't email you after 6pm because that's your time. This kind of thing. We're more aware that there's other ways of setting up your economies, other ways of setting up your countries, other ways of doing capitalism that aren't just the way we do it. I remember once I heard that in Europe, it was standard in the car to have a lighter, but in America, it was standard in a car to have a cup holder. Because Europeans were like, why the hell would I drink my coffee in the car? Like, that's part of my day, right? Like, I sit down and I have my coffee, whereas we're making soup that you can hold in the cup holder. Because we're on our way somewhere in a rush to do our capitalism, you know? And I thought, oh, God, that is so different. And like, when I think about government and because I'm obsessed with government, my show's about politics, right? And you're talking about the Great Depression and what happens when these Gilded Age guys get everything. And when the stock market falls out and the banks fall out. We ended up in America with the Depression, Right? And I always say, if you don't think government can be a force for good, then you aren't familiar with FDR and the New Deal, Right? Because that came after the Great Depression, like, in many ways to me, right? Franklin Delano Roosevelt comes into office. The Republican that was in power was like, the government's not in charge of this, like you guys do you. And everyone was like, we need help, we're drowning. And FDR comes into office, and then the period that is now been known as the hundred days, which is the first hundred days he was in office, the first three months he was in office.
- [30:29]
Can we just pause for a second? Can we compare his hundred days to Trump's hundred days? Somebody should do that book real quick.
- [30:36]
Oh, my God, that would be just so painful. But I just want you to know this is where that hundred days came from. It came from FDR's first three months in office. And I just want people to understand, we were in the depression. And FDR's administration, in the first three months, put 8.5 million people to work, started construction projects of more than 650,000 miles of roads, 125,000 public buildings being built, 75,000 bridges, 8,000 parks. They offered emergency and short term government assistance and put the youth of America to work in our national forests. So if you want to compare it to Trump, as you're saying, the Trump administration is literally doing the polar opposite of that. They're closing our national parks, they're firing our workers, they're looking to sell our land to the highest bidder. They're firing government workers from industries, they're closing government projects for everything from scientific research to expanding broadband to our rural communities. Everything is getting more expensive. And we're also running out of work. So if we want to compare the two, not even remotely, I'm going to.
- [31:36]
Say something that a lot of people disagree with. FDR's 100 days didn't solve the Depression. No, it was a very nice thing he did. So people didn't starve, so families had jobs. The thing that solved the depression for the United States was World War II, was staying out of World War II and selling weapons to everybody that wanted to buy them, was jumping into World War II only when Japan bombed them and was, and very importantly, winning World War II. And, and when you jump into a war and you win it, the economic output of that war, okay, you lost, so now you pay. That is what changed the Depression. That is what altered because, you know, also under fdr, he was, he was slaughtering livestock. What people were starving. And you're slaughtering to control profits and all of that because you don't want to tell people they can't sell it for a certain amount of money. Heaven forbid we have price controls. So we're going to then dictate the slaughtering of livestock in order to control how much is on the market to control price. Do you understand how messed up that is?
- [32:55]
I do, I do. And yet FDR remains my favorite president because literally he put so many, he put so many things. I mean there's not much to go on really. There's, there's, there's 46 of them really. And they're not all great. But I got to think about the things he put into practice that we take for granted today. You know, stuff like the fdic, right. Government backed insurance for our banks. So the bank run couldn't happen again. The SEC was all socialism. I, I know, I understand. This is how Democrats got branded as socialists and you know, the Republicans got branded as like fiscal conservatives that were states rights people. But they really did help us. And it's all the rolling back of it now. Like the National Labor Relations Board came under fdr. Like the ability to get together and do collective bargaining, that was all those years. Like a lot of what America's society was based on happened between 1933 and 1939, you know, so I, I want to give him the credit that I think is do. And I think that's why he got reelected four times.
- [33:56]
Four times. Yeah.
- [33:58]
And now we got the 22nd Amendment.
- [33:59]
The war, the war helped.
- [34:01]
The war did help.
- [34:02]
Listen, I think everything he was trying to do was actually quite incredible. He was still doing it under the confines and under the presumption that the system of, of capitalism and economic ideology was the only way we could have organized things.
- [34:21]
Yeah.
- [34:21]
And, and therein lies the funny. It gives the presumption that this system of, of what things cost and who can do what and when. I can kick you out of your house and all of these different things, that it's somehow not of our complete and utter creation. We pretend as though it's out of our hands when we built it. And then we try to legislate it in all of these different ways because what we pretend is an objective reality that we don't, you know, it is what it is. You can't fight capitalism and the way the dollar goes. And, and then we try to legislate it from everywhere that we possibly can to get A better result. In Canada during the Great Depression, there was something called the Social Credit party and their idea, and obviously it, you know, got tossed. But their idea was actually interesting and quite beautiful. They said, listen, we have poverty amidst plenty. Why is that? Why are people starving while we're slaughtering pigs? So the market value comes down. Why don't we adjust how we do business during a time when money seemingly has no value? When in Canada, you can help build that guy's house and you can mend their clothes and you can help look after their kids and you can grow their food, right? A system of somewhat of bartering. Because we had in Canada and in the United States, we had plenty. We didn't have money. And we pretend like that five dollar bill actually had value. It only had value because we said it did. And then when it stopped having value, people literally starved or jumped off buildings because they couldn't feed their family. What? The system was broken, Right? And so when we start questioning and again, everybody's like, well, I love the, the tagline for most Republicans. Capitalism brought more people out of poverty. Look, I understand it brought more people out of poverty. Great. Now we all have 42 sweatshirts now. What, Are we going the right way? It's astounding. We're literally fighting with other countries in order to find cures to diseases, in order to profit from it and watch other countries die from it. What? Because I'll tell you what, you can be as, as selfish as you want to be. You can find a cure all you want or a vaccine all you want for your people and let those people over there die horrible deaths because of it. But I'm going to tell you right now, that's going to mutate and pretty soon it's going to come knocking at your door again and then you're going to have to. We're not, we, we, we pretend as though we don't need international environmental regulations. Guys, do you think you live in a bubble? There's no dome over the United States. The part that scares me about today is this isolationist kind of policy that I'm seeing from many, many different countries where the walls are going up, both literally and figuratively and tariffs are rising. And it's about my country first. And it's about what we have and what we can get and what we can hold on to and stockpile away in opposition, in direct opposition and, and competition with other countries in this world. And that is the most anti intellectual, ridiculous foreign policy and economic reality that anybody could ever be in Yeah, I think the.
- [38:21]
The most perfect example of that is what's going on in Antarctica with all the countries down there trying to say, like, this is my little part of the iceberg. You know, they're all trying to, like, put their little flags out because they know, the scientists know anyway. Even though we ignore the scientists all the time, the scientists know we're going to run out of fresh water at some point, and they're trying to lock down their country's area of fresh water, which, by the way, will not go to all of us. It'll go to the people who can pay for it. So I think that what you're saying is this kind of concept, that money is power, money equals this. I have $5, it means this. And if I don't have $5 and I can't pay for that food, even if you have five apples, but I can't pay for it, then I go starving, even though there's enough. And this is a foolish way to live our lives. And I keep saying to people, like, when. When you hear Joanna talk about stuff like that, people go, oh, she's such a commie. She's a socialist. Like, this kind of stuff, sharing, all this sharing. Right. I think we need to be clear that, like, this kind of practical way of sharing resources, making sure we all have enough, there will always be people with more. But making sure that people have enough is one thing. It's the same reason that, like, social programs or a social safety net are not the same as socialism. Right. If socialism is a political system, you.
- [39:32]
Know, where it's an economic system.
- [39:33]
Yeah, yeah. It's a. It's like the private economy. Large sections of the private economy are controlled by the government, and everyone gets what they need. So the government not only provides, you know, social welfare services, like health care and. And that kind of thing, but they also take care of private industry. And I think we have to be really clear that, like, no one has ever suggested in the States that the government take over all private industry. And then I think, yeah, but then it sort of gets me into the world of fascism. Right? Like, I think Donald Trump is making more of a move to take over a lot of industries that were previously publicly run and make them private, which then gets me into the fascism world. What do you think about that, about fascism in general?
- [40:15]
Lee McGowan
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Joanna Johnson
So I'm just going to add to.
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Lee McGowan
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- [44:27]
Joanna Johnson
What do you think about that, about fascism in general?
- [44:30]
Well, I think going back to socialism for one quick second, we also have to understand when you have a socialist governor, democratic socialist government, the. The key there is communism. The govern the people. Technically the people should own everything. Okay? But I think what happens in communism, you don't have anybody making like, you know, toys like this, right? Like you don't have people making insignificant things because you're supposed to be contributing significantly to the economy and what we need. So th. Those things kind of go away. In a, in a socialist country you have the means of production of essential, necessary, life preserving things owned by the people because they people say the government. But what it really means in a socialist system is it's owned by the people. They have a stake so in a socialist country, it makes sense for the government to administer the ownership of the people of things like water, gas, even housing, education, health care. These are the things that people need, right? So if they need them to survive, it makes perfect sense that we have a system in place that the needs of the population are then taken care of by the government in order to ensure everybody has access. And then the company that makes this go ahead, you can make as much money as you want selling your little toy sharks because it doesn't matter for survival. That's where the profits lie, in the excess, right? Whereas in capitalism it's like, no, to hell with that, your house is on fire. Cool. I'm going to need $300. It's burning. You better hurry up and give it to me. That's cap. That's pure capitalism, right? So the differences about what we own and why we own it and how we share that responsibility, it goes to the importance of different ideas or aspects of the economy that we will then need to use. When you're talking about somebody who is fascist, which by the way, in my opinion, the United States wasn't capitalist in 1776. They were fascist. Want to know why they were fascist? Because only 10% of the population could vote. You had to be white, you had to own land, and you needed to be a man. And then what you did with that power is you utilized it to enslave, oppress, manipulate and control everybody else in order for you to gain more economic wealth and more control of that particular system. The fact that 2 million slaves as well as, and I know a lot of people point out, what about the Irish, Joe, listen, lots of slaves, lots of, lots of indentured servitude. However, when we're talking about the vast amounts of people that built and were owned and were utilized as free labor in order to give the pretense of America being the greatest capitalist society in the world is actually laughable. Yeah, it's absolutely laughable. But fascism always comes around because it is end stage capitalism. I have lots of money, I have lots of control. So guess what? I get to walk in and stand beside the president with my $300 billion. I get to go into Medicaid, I get to go in Social Security, I get to go in every branch and I get to decide who gets cut, how they get cut. Right. I have absolutely no elected vantage point from being here. I actually have no educated or intellectual capacity to be here. But because I have 300 billion, I now have the power to do it. That's always been the case. We always pretend, and we do this in Canada, too. We like to pretend that we're something that we're not. That equality exists when it never has. That equity is this four letter word that we don't like because it makes us think just a little too hard and a little too long. And it makes us uncomfortable about how much more the CEO of Walmart should make than somebody working 40 hours checking people out. How do we do that? Right? Because if I say that guy can have all the money and this person has none, it doesn't make sense for the system, even if you don't care about people. But now we have to have nuanced, intelligent discussions about the value of people and the value of that labor and nobody wants to have it because it's a hard conversation and we abdicate it. And let's be honest. 90 million Americans sat at home and you abdicated the power you had to control who makes the laws, seemingly who ignores the laws in your country. 90 million people could have chose Bernie Sanders last election. Just take that in for a second. If 90 million people in the United States walked up and wrote in Bernie Sanders on that ballot, they would have outvoted Trump, they would have outvoted Harris. 90 million people could have decided the fate and they stayed home. Now, there's lots of reasons for that, sure, but that's what fascism, one of its goals is always been to disenfranchise. And I don't necessarily mean that legally, although he's trying to do that now. I mean that via propaganda. I mean that emotionally. I mean that socially. I mean, how do I make people feel like they absolutely have no control and no power to do anything? Because as soon as I can do that, then I just got to convince the other people that I'm the choice. Then I'm going to use fear and I'm going to warmonger and I'm going to use isolationist policies. I'm going to talk about how great and how perfect they are. No, they're not. No, they're not. We're closing our. Canada's doing it too. We're closing our borders to all of these international students because they're taking spots from our domestic students. Get smarter. Are you crazy? Are you saying that we want less intelligence in our. Is that what we're saying? Because it's ridiculous. I've watched us dismantle our education system and now we're upset as we've dismantled our education system, as we pushed everybody through as the United States created a policy of no Child Left behind, but apparently every child gets to be illiterate when they graduate. When we did that, we basically said, other countries win. If you're. If you're willing to keep your kids in the class and actually teach them and make sure they learn and hold them accountable and not let parents run their mouth and get them out of their, you know, final exam for chemistry or whatever the hell they're doing. We. You want to know why we're falling behind? You want to know why we're not innovating? You want to know why we are having to fight this ridiculous tariff war? We didn't get good enough at the game. We set up because we rested. Now we want back manufacturing jobs. I don't know who said it. There's this brilliant guy on TikTok and I forget his name all the time. He's an economist, he's a businessman, he's so, so smart. And he goes, we don't want to make the shoes, we want to wear the shoes. Meaning why on God's. Why would we want to go back to manufacturing stuff that's backwards? And in fact, in about five minutes, AI is going to do it anyway. What jobs are we bringing back? How close are we to robots making cars? We're going to bring back Ford and GM all to Michigan. So in the next five years, robots are going to be doing it. That's what he's doing it for, by the way. It's not for the worker, but again, it's all set up under this pretense that capitalism is a natural state, that money has inherent value and that we have no control over it whatsoever. So we're just going to stand back and try to work within the system that has been, I don't know, gifted to us from God who gave it to us, just wondering, like, who handed it out? Because all I see is a new king and a new queen and a new aristocracy. It's just a matter if they're driving around in a Bentley, same deal. They get better lawyers. They don't have to abide, clearly, the legal system. They get better schools, although funnily enough, they're not even making the. I'm always astounded at people that are inherent, like, incredibly wealthy and can send their kids to all these great schools and then have them cheat on their sats and buy their way into the rowing team. What just happened? You're getting in to Harvard and you're on your social media telling everybody how Joey down the street wrote your Sat. This is what we're doing. This is what the rich are doing. The wealthy. This is the wealthy. This is what the wealthy are doing. They're figuring out how do I buy my kids privilege the delusion of a meritocracy. I can't. I can't. You pit DEI against meritocracy. Since when has the United States been a bastion of only the best rise to the top? Unless you're George Bush and you do way too much this and your dad has to buy a library to get you back into Yale. That's what money's done. That's what capitalism has done. Capitalism in all shape or form actually is antithetical to merit. Unless you're the first generation. Right? Every loves that. Stories like, I swept the floor of the company I then bought. That's beautiful. That's impressive. I don't demean that work. But your kids didn't do any of it.
- [54:31]
Yeah, that's why also they say the first generation makes it, the second generation spends it, the third generation loses it. Before you go, because I do want to ask you about your book before you go, because it's coming out and I'm excited about it, but where do you think we go from here? Just off the top of your head, like, fix it for us right now? Yeah, just fix it. Go ahead. No, but what are your ideas? Obviously, capitalism is broken. We need to flip a monopoly board. What do we got?
- [54:58]
My idea has to be based in equity. Because if I had another economic solution, I promise you, I would give it. But if we are going to be intelligent about this and honest, the idea of equity is everything. They're getting rid of DEI everywhere. But we need to figure out the relative value of things and we need to mitigate against the mass accumulation of wealth. That is the evil. That is the end of capitalism. That's the end of the economic system that we all want to be a part of. This notion, and I think we're getting there, this notion of mass consumption is inherently flawed. That as soon as we pull back from mass consumption, mass production won't be essential and everything will have to shift anyways.
- [55:48]
It's the idea that we cannot continue with this endless growth. Every company must make more every year. Because that doesn't make any sense.
- [55:55]
I need a bigger house. I need more cars. I need more clothes. I need more. And by the way, if you looked around my room, you'd be like, joanna, what a hypocrite. Yes, I'm stupid.
- [56:02]
It.
- [56:03]
But it's the fact that we've as we grow in that and, and everybody who has a lot of stuff will eventually say, this isn't it. This doesn't make me happy, this doesn't make me feel empowered, this doesn't make me feel purposeful. This isn't it. And as soon as you can recognize this isn't it, and then, you know, convince other people that don't have it that this isn't it, we can start progressing to something more intelligent, more sustainable and more practical about the way that we want to live this world. I think a big problem too is the way our, our political system works in the sense that we have a four year plan. My students and I were talking about this today. We have a four year plan. China has a 50 year plan. Now I understand, don't get me wrong, I understand all the human rights abuses and all of the, the, all of the stuff that can go on in China. By the way, the United States has really taken a swing at giving them a run for their money right now anyways. But they have a 50 year plan. Why? Because they understand that planning for the next four years is absolutely stupid. It makes no sense. For the next four years, nothing of substance, nothing of purpose, nothing that is long lasting is going to get done. You're not going to fix anything, you're not going to build anything, you're not going to transform anything. And then you elect somebody completely new, takes you in a different direction.
- [57:32]
Yep. And you become an unreliable trading partner. And no one wants to make deals with you because you change from. I read a thing recently that said Europeans don't want to make deals with Americans because why should their trade policy be dictated by 40,000 voters in Wisconsin every four years? And I was like, yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, it makes it impossible. And this is why we got so much done during the FDR years, because he was there for 12 years, I guess. But I think that long term, like this isn't it. This concept of this isn't it. I think we saw that a little bit during the pandemic, you know, where we were kind of locked down and we were like, huh, what's more important? I think there's also this concept, you know, like, I'm not going to give too dal Donnie any sort of credit for this. He's not telling us like, hey man, cut back on your consumption. What he's saying is, I'm taking all the money and you guys will get less. That's different. But I think the thing is, is that we can't have endless growth because by the end of it, we go like, I'm not even happy with this. I was just reading about Bill Gates saying he's going to give away all of his money.
- [58:28]
He's going to die broke.
- [58:29]
Yeah, yeah. He said, I'm going to die and you'll write a lot of things about me, but it won't be that he died rich. That's his thing. And I think like, okay, that's a shift. That's a shift from one billionaire who is probably on an Epstein plane as well, but one billionaire. And the women billionaires seem to be doing okay. They seem to be giving away a lot of money, but he's making a shift. And I think that's important question.
- [58:51]
Who do you think gets all the farmland he's bought up when he dies?
- [58:55]
Honestly, these billionaires are buying some so much farmland, it is terrifying to me.
- [58:59]
Maybe I can get a little bit of it. Maybe we should be good friends.
- [59:02]
We should definitely be buying farmland. That would be very smart of both of us.
- [59:05]
Melinda seems much nicer. I'll call her instead.
- [59:07]
Call Melinda. Call Melinda. Before you go, please tell us about your new book coming out. I think the book is called that's not what this book is about.
- [59:14]
Yeah. And the reason why, actually, that was my, my followers, my people, they're. I'm like, I gotta, I need a book title. And they're like, well, you start many tiktoks with, well, that's, you know, a little bit. And then that's not what this tick tock's about. And I go to something else and. And they're the ones that gave it to me. And I'm like, it's brilliant. So the concept is this. It's kind of like, have you ever read the five people you meet in heaven by Mitch album? Great. So similar idea. I don't go to the afterlife. I become a teacher. But the premise is this. There have been moments in my life that when I now look back and I now compare, like I, I, I look back, they were pivotal moments that I never knew were pivotal until now. And how they transform and shape the teacher that I am, the teacher that I want to be, and my educational philosophy. So first half of each chapter is that flashback. The second half of each chapter is who I am as a teacher. Why do I do this? How do I do this? And then how will I progress from there going forward?
- [60:15]
That sounds awesome. And honestly, I'm sure it's going to be wry and funny and sarcastic at.
- [60:19]
The same Time I'm going to try to do an audiobook, but I know myself and I know I'm going to read it and then go off on a tangent, so. Which I think will be the funniest part of the audiobook. So the audiobook, which I'll probably tape in the summer, will be the book, but probably have a bunch of other side stories that just come to my mind and I kind of go off and I'm like, oh, I gotta get back to the book. And then I'll keep reading it.
- [60:43]
So your audiobook will have Easter eggs. That's nice.
- [60:45]
I think it'll have to. I don't think I could read it without doing it. I don't think I'm capable.
- [60:52]
Well, look, I'll tell you, in a time of anti intellectualism, it is such a pleasure to talk to someone who likes to learn, who likes to teach, who really cares about how things work and thinking about new, new ways of doing things. So thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me today and tell people how they can follow you online.
- [61:09]
Unlearn16 pretty much everywhere. Unlearn16 classes in session is my podcast. And yeah, my book will be coming out at the end of this month. And if I can say one more thing, I don't think people are anti intellectual. I think people are scared. And I think when people are scared, they want to believe that somebody is going to give them a simple solution to help save them and protect their families. And what I want people to try to be just tomorrow is a little less scared. Because if you're a little less scared, you'll listen to what other people have to say, you'll come up with better ideas than somebody else, leaving you down a path that's only going to benefit them.
- [61:42]
Amen to that.
- [61:44]
Thank you so much.
- [61:45]
Thank you so much.
- [61:47]
Lee McGowan
So that was Joanna Johnson reminding us that capitalism isn't our natural state.
- [61:52]
Joanna Johnson
We pretend this economic system is out.
- [61:54]
Lee McGowan
Of our hands, but we are the ones who built it. It's man made. We can change the game because we made the game. Perhaps the fascism we're seeing is simply end stage capitalism and we find ourselves at a tipping point where the time is approaching to flip the board. I want to thank Joanna for joining us and you for caring enough about democracy to be here. Now go check out unlearn16 on social media or unlearn16 classes in session wherever you get your podcasts and start imagining a world that works differently. A world where we are less afraid and the possibilities become endless. Until next week.
- [62:30]
Joanna Johnson
PGM do you want to get this.
- [62:34]
Lee McGowan
Podcast ad free delivered directly to your inbox along with my Kitchen Rank?
- [62:38]
Joanna Johnson
Then please consider becoming a member of.
- [62:40]
Lee McGowan
Politics Girl Premium by going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. If you are already a premium member of this podcast, thank you so much for your support. And if you're not a member, please consider being a patron of my work. Mainstream news is only bringing you a version of billionaire backed propaganda at this point, so if you want real knowledge, it's essential to support those of us out here still bringing it to you. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode but also on politicsgirl.com and as always, please like and share this podcast so we can grow our audience because the more people who have access to this kind of information the better. As always, thank you for your time and support. Politics Girl Podcast is written and performed by me, Leigh McGowan in partnership with.
- [63:21]
Joanna Johnson
The Midas Media Network and produced and.
- [63:23]
Lee McGowan
Edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.