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- [00:00]
David Rothkopf
We're back to where we were 250 years ago. 2026 is the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution. And I think it's important for us to stop and say, well, what was that about? Because that was about a system in which the senior title in the United States government was voter. It wasn't president, the senior title was citizen. It was all of us. And the government was to work for us. And right, we've got a small group of aristocrats regaining the control that they had 251 years ago and saying, no, you work for us, we will give you as much as we need to to keep society stable, but no more than that as we go and we try to become trillionaires or sent a billionaires. And that's appalling.
- [01:12]
Leigh McGowan
Hello and welcome to the Politics Girl Podcast. I'm your host, Leigh McGowan. Let's get into it. When I reached out to my friend David Rothkop immediately after the election about joining us on a podcast, I was really struggling. So I was having trouble managing my fears and anger. And he was one of the first people to write something optimistic. He was able to consider what was coming for us with both realism and a cool head. And in the midst of all the hot takes, his words focused me and allowed me to settle down and be able to see the forest for the trees. And I wanted to share his perspective with you today. For those of you who don't know, David is the CEO of the Rothkop Group, best selling author and journalist, and host of the Deep State Radio Podcast. He's also someone who truly understands government, having served as Deputy Under Secretary of of Commerce and International Trade Policy in the Clinton Administration. David has worked as a Professor of International affairs at Columbia University, Georgetown and Johns Hopkins, and is a contributing columnist to the Daily Beast, a member of the Board of Contributors of USA Today, and has authored hundreds of articles from multiple publications. I'm having him on to get his take on how he thinks we should prepare for what's about to happen to us and to hopefully give us some perspective on how to survive what will obviously be an incredibly trying time. So without further ado, please welcome bestselling author, international expert, and brilliant thinker, not afraid to ask the hard questions. David Rothkop, welcome back, my friend.
- [02:34]
David Rothkopf
It's good to see you.
- [02:35]
Leigh McGowan
Well, thanks for coming. I mean, you know, I love to talk to you and as someone with a tendency to let my imagination run wild, I find your grounded perspective very helpful in these Times. One of your most recent sub stacks on need to Know by David Rothkop, which I highly recommend people subscribe to, was titled There are Two Kinds of people, those who get the joke and those who do not. And in the piece, you acknowledge that these next Trump years are going to be undoubtedly hard, but you lay out some groundwork on how to best address the developments as we move forward, and you remind us that it's gonna be a marathon and not a sprint, and we need to be protective of our emotional resources. As you say, we can't just lay them all out before breakfast. Right? We have to kind of take it easy. So talk to me about why you wrote this piece and what you wanted us to take from these guidelines.
- [03:26]
David Rothkopf
Well, I think it's been a theme that I've tried to return to a few times since the election, because there is a tendency among all of us, not even keeled people like yourself, but the rest of us, to go, oh, my God, it's Trump again. Democracy is dead. I have to leave the country. He's gonna throw us all in jail. He's gonna sell us down the river to Russia. RFK Jr's gonna eliminate all of our vaccines, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Now, each one of those things has some foundation in, you know, our own experience. It's not as crazy as it might have sounded before, but having said that, responding to your fears is not a constructive strategy to go through life, right? Instead, what you've got to do is you've got to say what's real right now. What can I do about it? You know, I'm always reminded of the movie Bridge of Spies with Tom Hanks, in which he's defending an East German who has been accused of spying against the US and he's up for the death penalty, and the US Lays out the case against him, and the guy does not freak out. And this happens several times. And Tom Hanks goes, well, why aren't you freaking out? Like, why aren't you getting really upset about it? And he responds, would it help? And I think that's a question that we need to ask ourselves as we go through this. Would it help to have a meltdown right now? And there's so much that's going on that's really serious that I think we need to focus on that. Our recent ambassadorial picks, which are kind of Looney Tunes, right? But almost all presidents pick loony ambassadors who are their donors, and it doesn't, in the end, make a huge difference if it's Don Jr. S ex, or it's Jared Kushner's con felon dad. Right. I mean, it's not gonna be great for our relations with France. But, you know, we've seen this movie before. We can't change it. There are some nominees that are really, really, really dangerous nominees. Tulsi Gabbard is a dangerous nominee.
- [05:54]
Leigh McGowan
Kash Patel is a dangerous nominee.
- [05:56]
David Rothkopf
Cash Patel is a dangerous nominee. RFK Jr. Is a dangerous nominee. We're not gonna get to block all of those, but we really ought to focus on the ones where there's a real threat associated with. Similarly, like, Trump's not gonna deport 11 million people. He's just not. Because he can't. Because it would cost tens or perhaps hundreds of billions of dollars because there are 1,000 ICE agents who are dedicated to enforcement, which means there's a huge gap there in terms of the manpower needed. You would have to put them all in concentration camps, which, although Trump recently said, oh, yeah, I'll do that, it's one thing to say it. It's another thing to start building scores of concentration camps across the world.
- [06:45]
Leigh McGowan
They are building one. They are building one in Texas right now.
- [06:47]
David Rothkopf
Well, I understand, but the point is, is he gonna try to do this? Yes. Is he gonna get a lot of people? Yes. I think we should remember. And I'm not defending what he's doing, by the way. I'm just saying we need to put it into scale. Right. Barack Obama deported 420,000 people a year throughout his presidency. See, he had pretty tough policies on this kind of thing. So let's scale these things down. Is Elon gonna cut the budget by $2 trillion? Of course he's not. Because he doesn't get to. Because that's not how our system works. The Congress does it. And all of those trillions of dollars actually go to districts, more to red districts than to blue districts. And one by one, Republicans will say, hey, wait a minute, not so fast there, buddy. Let's just cut this line out or that line out. And you want to know something? The Republican margin in the House of Representatives is so thin that if only one or two or three Republicans say, no, I'm not for this. It can't happen. So will there be cuts? Yes. Will they go after some agencies that we really should fund? Yes. But let's put it in perspective. And the same is true with, you know, is Trump going to end democracy? Is this the beginning of fascism? Will he move us in a fascistic direction? Probably. Will he be More authoritarian than he should? Yes. Will he be profoundly, mind bogglingly corrupt? Cuckoo corrupt? Yeah, sure he will. I hate that. But we're not going to do anything about that. We need to focus on those direct threats to the rule of law in the U.S. and support those things. So I could go on and on, but the point is this is a dark moment. There are dangers ahead. We need to focus on what we can do to fight those dangers and who our allies are. As I said, there are a bunch of Republican congressmen who we would never think of as allies who may be the obstacles to achieving a lot of the goals of Trump. We need to figure out what our ad hoc coalitions are that will enable us to achieve our goals.
- [09:04]
Leigh McGowan
Right. The key takeaway being big picture perspective. It's easy to get outraged about what's being written in social media, you know, who's being nominated to the cabinet, the ambassador positions, what seems ready to happen. But so much of what we're hearing depends on for profit media and social media who depend on clicks and hits and stuff to stay hot and to stay angry and to stay make us crazy and keep eyeballs on the screen because they make more money that way. But that's not the best way for us to take in or learn information. And we need to sort of take a step back on what to be outraged about at what time, because there's gonna be enough for us to be outraged about that if we spend it all on everything. Like, I'm thinking about Christopher Wray, right? Do I wish that Christopher Wray, who, if people don't know, was the FBI director nominated by Trump, who still had a good five years left on his tenure, who seems to be like, ready to step down and obey in advance and allow Trump to put in someone like Kash Patel as the FBI do I wish he had stayed in place and made Trump fire him and remind people that there's a reason that the FBI director is a fixed 10 year term. So, you know, the job can't just be politicized by some incoming president who wants to use the FBI as his own personal, you know, police force. Yes, of course. But I think, as you point out, if Trump wanted Christopher Wray gone, he would have been gone. Right. Like, that's not the big story. The big story is what do they want to turn the FBI into? What happens if they turn the FBI over to someone like Cash Patel, who is nothing but a loyalist and a conspiracy theorist and deeply connected to all Trump's companies and will do anything Trump Says, what happens to the FBI's actual job? You know, if their job is to round up gun smugglers and, you know, child predators, and the jobs that the FBI actually does, if they turn that into just a personal enforcement regime for the Trump administration to go after political enemies and the media and whoever else Cash Patel hates, that's the bigger problem. So, like, let's not get, like, bent out of shape about Christopher Wray retiring early, whatever it happened, and move on to what will happen if we allow the Senate to approve someone like Kash Patel to run the organization. That feels like a better use of our time.
- [11:15]
David Rothkopf
It definitely does. And I think we should also take some comfort from the fact that the vast majority of people in the FBI have sworn an oath to the Constitution, take it seriously, are focused on law enforcement, and will resist things that break the law. Furthermore, the vast majority of judges out there weren't appointed by Trump, and there are a lot of courts in which some of the things that he can do will be brought to. And yes, the Supreme Court has a six person conservative majority that doesn't seem to care much about the Constitution. But remember that the supreme court sees about 120 cases a year. It does not see the vast majority of American cases. And so a lot of the things that they're going to want to do, including deportations, firing people and so forth, are going to get hung up, slowed down in the courts, as it happened the last time. There are some things people say, well, he's got immunity. He can do well. First of all, only the president has immunity, right? All these other people he appoints don't have immunity. And so they're at risk if they break the law of going to jail at some point, right?
- [12:23]
Leigh McGowan
Well, not. I mean, but I think what I would say to that is that Trump has the pardon power. So he's already showing US now with January 6th, you break the law for me, I will pardon you. It seems like we're going into the land of the lawless. You know, what's that old expression from that general in Peru? For my friends, everything. For my enemies, the law. That's what I'm kind of feeling like we're looking at.
- [12:45]
David Rothkopf
I think there is that to some degree. I'm just saying that the scope and scale of what Trump is trying to do is such or seeks or he said he's going to do is such that it will be difficult for him to do that for everybody. We also should keep in mind that Trump is notoriously disloyal and the People around him will turn on him at some point or he will turn on them, and they will be dysfunctional. And I am absolutely not in favor. I mean, this whole Pete Hagseth argument or the Tulsi Gabbard argument or the RFK Jr argument that there's some character flaw or something else, I'm like, slow down. We don't even need to get there. These people have never had a management job, do not know the area that they've been put in charge with, and they shouldn't get the jobs because they're completely incompetent to do it. Now, will the Republican Senate show enough spine to block all of them? No. Some of these people are going to get in there, and as happened the last time, they will prove to be incompetent. I'm not in favor of it. But, you know, sometimes incompetence is your friend. You know, if somebody's trying to achieve something terrible, that matters, too. Also, the majority that the Republicans have in the House, with three people out because they're joining the administration, it's essentially one vote for the next few months. That's not a majority. That's all you need to do is somebody doesn't show up for a day. And Hakeem Jeffries is the speaker. There are a lot of opportunities for Democrats to use their influence, and they should. Now, by the way, and this is what my substack is about today, it would help if the Democrats actually had leaders. I mean, God bless Joe Biden, but he's disappeared. Right. He's M.I.A. we don't even. You know, I'm looking for his picture on a milk carton at the moment.
- [14:45]
Leigh McGowan
Yeah.
- [14:46]
David Rothkopf
You know, and Kamala Harris is, you know, off recovering from this. I understand it. But, you know, you know, we have in the House and the Senate this kind of gerontocracy that is like trying to block the next generation from taking the lead.
- [15:03]
Leigh McGowan
I know. David, what is happening with that? Like, I mean, I was so pleased to see people like Jamie Raskin step forward and AOC step forward to be the leaders of their committees. And to hear that some of the people like Nancy Pelosi are trying to block, say, AOCs nomination to the head of that committee. I think. Why? Why would you do that? Like, what are the Democrats learning in this moment from having lost this election? Where are they going from here? Who do they want to be? Because the majority of the country, the majority of their own party is. Is so disappointed in them. And I think if you lose like this, this is the moment to reevaluate, rethink it. And as far as I'm concerned, as Trump tries to rule from the top down, Democrats should be rebuilding from the ground up. And I don't know why they think that it's business as usual is going to keep working for. It hasn't worked for them for years.
- [15:52]
David Rothkopf
Well, you know, you wrote a great book which is about common sense in politics and you know, I'm with you, that is commonsensical. But, you know, people act in their self interest, not in common sense. Nancy Pelosi is an American hero. We should be very grateful for her, 100%. And she's 84 and we should thank her and move on. Joe Biden should have moved on two years ago and passed the torch to the next generation as he said he would do. You know, and we need, you know, the Jamie Raskins and the AOCs and the Jasmine Crocketts and the Chris Murphy's and, you know, I mean, there's a long list of people.
- [16:30]
Leigh McGowan
Yeah, there is. We have actually quite a good bench.
- [16:33]
David Rothkopf
And that's not even to speak of governors. Right. Gretchen Whitmer, Josh Shapiro, Wes Moore, Gavin Newsom, Andy Beshear, Pete Buttigieg is out there. He'll go run for governor of Michigan in a couple of years and he will be a leading voice. We need to get this older generation, give them a pat on the back, thank them very much, turn to them for advice, and as Kamala Harris said, turn the page.
- [17:01]
Leigh McGowan
Yeah, turn the page. And I hope they figure that out because honestly, it feels like they're gonna Dianne Feinstein themselves right into the end of times. And I don't want that. And Dianne Feinstein's someone I looked up to tremendously, but you need to know when to move along. I think it's so important.
- [17:20]
David Rothkopf
Look at Joe Biden. The first two, three years of his presidency were historically productive.
- [17:26]
Leigh McGowan
Unbelievable, right?
- [17:28]
David Rothkopf
And the last year, he did such damage to his legacy. And I know a lot of people love Joe Biden and I love Joe Biden and that's great. But let's be honest. You know, this is about taking it too far. This happens all the time in companies, in government. People stay too long, know when it's time to move on. And. And frankly, I think that goes for the political consultant class as well, who ran a campaign for Kamala Harris that was suited to the election realities of 2016 and 2020, a lot of TV advertising, that kind of thing.
- [18:10]
Leigh McGowan
I would say it was suited to a Lot of the things that the consultants did was almost early 2000s, 1990s.
- [18:17]
David Rothkopf
Stuff in that it was also suited to the, I mean, you'll forgive me for saying this, but it was also suited to ensuring that a lot of them have a nice beach house. Because a lot of the money went into things where they all got a cut and their friends got a cut and they turned to their friends and you know, Democrats, they need to kind of wake up. Like, first of all, they did pretty well in the election. Cause Kamala Harris was a good candidate. So let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.
- [18:46]
Leigh McGowan
Yeah, we did great in all the swing states except for that presidential spot. I mean, like it was senator after senator after governor.
- [18:53]
David Rothkopf
And the margin in the presidential spot. If she'd had a few more weeks, if Biden had stepped aside earlier, if she had been able to put her own team in place and so on and so forth, I think she would have won. But let's set all that aside because people just call it sour grapes or rationalization. Democrats say, well, Trump won because of low information voters. Well, really, those people get information. It's just different information. It's not that they don't get any. They would say, well, you know, they listen to Joe Rogan or they listen to social media. 60 to 70% of Americans get their news from social media. Now that genie is not going back in the bottle. Stop trying to sell buggy whips, for God's sakes. Let's get into the business of dealing with the hand we're dealt. And that means instead of saying, oh, they're low information, saying, well, what is their information and how do we get to them and how do we listen to them and how do we connect to them? And we didn't do that.
- [19:54]
Leigh McGowan
No. And the Republicans have been doing it for years. They've fully invested in the new media ecosphere. It's the reason we have Turning Point USA and Candace Owens and Ben Shapiro and all of the America first giant shows that they put on with General Mike Flynn at them and these kind of things. I mean, they totally embraced a new way of people getting information and people loved it. And we didn't do that. Well, the holidays are here and if you're anything like me, your skin might need a little tlc. Between cold weather, indoor heating and late nights, we all deserve a glow up. And that's where our sponsor, Oneskin comes in. Now, Oneskin isn't just skincare. It's science backed skincare that works at the cellular level. Their products feature the game changing ingredient of the OS1 peptide developed by an all woman team of scientists. After testing over 900 other peptides, it is proven to target those pesky zombie cells. The ones that stop producing collagen and hyaluronic acid and make your skin look older. So instead of just masking aging, Oneskin works to reverse it, leaving your skin healthier, firmer and more hydrated. And here's the exciting part. For the entire month of December, Oneskin is giving you a free travel size product with every purchase. That's a $42 value. But that's not all. It's a different gift every week. So every purchase is like a little holiday surprise. I've been using Oneskin for a while now and I'm particularly fond of their sunscreen and body cream. So whether you are shopping for a loved one or treating yourself because self care is a great gift, now is the perfect time to try OneSkin. Visit OneSkin Co and use the code code PoliticsGirl to get 15% off your purchase. That's OneSkin Co with the code PoliticsGirl for 15% off. And don't forget, after you check out they'll ask you where you heard about them. So please let them know that we sent you. Invest in your skin's health today because we only have one skin and it deserves the very best age healthy this holiday season with one skin. The holiday season comes with the joy of baking all those warm, delicious treats we love. But maybe we don't have the time for all the mess and stress of homemade baking. Well, that is where Wild Grain comes in, making it easy to bake up a storm without breaking a sweat. If you haven't heard of Wild Grain, it's the first ever bake from frozen subscription box for artisanal bread, pastries and pastas. And it's a game changer. Everything in the box bakes straight from the freezer in 25 minutes or less. No prep, no mess, just the smell of fresh freshly baked bread or flaky pastries filling your home. And Wildgreen lets you customize your box to match your tastes or your dietary needs. They've got their classic box, a new gluten free box and even a 100% plant based box for all our vegans out there. Personally I am obsessed with their sourdough bread. It's crispy on the outside and soft and airy on the inside. Oh and the pastries, those are delicious. And at the holidays you can justify starting the day with a baked good. This Holiday season, treat yourself and your guest to something special. Wild Grain is offering Politics Girl listeners $30 off their first box, plus a free item in every box. Yep, you heard that right. Go to wildgrain.com politicsgirl to grab this deal or use the promo code politicsgirl at checkout. That's wildgrain.com politicsgirl for $30 off and free goodies with every box. Trust me, you're gonna love it. And your guests will too. Happy baking and happy holidays. They totally embraced a new way of people getting information and people loved it. And we didn't do that well.
- [23:29]
David Rothkopf
And also, you know, Joe Rogan, the real, you know, well, Joe, you know, look at what Joe Rogan's past is, you know, and people are like, yeah, he talks about wrestling on a show and it's like, why do you think the young 18 to 24 year old males listen to him? It's because he's talking about what they want and throwing in a little politics, which is how they want their politics. Half of the American electorate didn't vote.
- [23:53]
Leigh McGowan
Yeah, 90 million people didn't vote.
- [23:56]
David Rothkopf
This is a serious challenge that Dems need to address. And by the way, it's not getting reduced. I mean, you live in California and the LA Times is now a captive of the right.
- [24:11]
Leigh McGowan
Yep.
- [24:12]
David Rothkopf
Twitter is a captive of the right. The Washington Post is a captive of the right. You're starting to see an exodus of people from the Post, you know, and Democrats need to sort of step up and say, what do we do? But the answer, by the way, is not have a Democrat buy MSNBC, because people are not listening to MSNBC. It's not by the Post. It's, you know, spend $10 billion and buy a Politics Girl podcast.
- [24:40]
Leigh McGowan
Thank you.
- [24:41]
David Rothkopf
Right.
- [24:42]
Leigh McGowan
No, I mean, I say this all the time because people take Joe Rogan seriously. Like, obviously I'm not gonna talk about wrestling, this kind of thing, but you might wanna rec. Talk more about wrestling, more wrestling from me. But I think the thing is, is that there are lots of people out here already doing the work and the left needs to invest in the voices that are already here. Because one of the reasons Joe Rogan is taken seriously is because someone paid him $125 million to do his show and then gave him the facilities of Sirius and gave him the groundwork. Otherwise he would just be the guy from Fear Factor and the guy from UFC wrestling. But he was legitimized by the money and the, you know, things behind him. And then it gives him a giant audience. And I Think we already have a lot of those people that we could be investing in on our side. We just haven't done it because we're kind of trying to live in the past, which I think is how we see our representatives trying to govern, how we see our media trying to win elections, how we see the old system. Like, you're saying the amount of people who made money in this campaign for the Democrats, who all could, left with millions of dollars between them and lost, that's not how it should be. I'm tired of having the ideas, the better candidates, the majority sentiment of the country, and then losing elections. That's exhausting. And I think it's important as we move into this next phase that we realize we have to. It's not reinventing the wheel, it's acknowledging where we are in today's society and where we're going to go moving forward.
- [26:12]
David Rothkopf
Yeah, it's absolutely right. And, you know, I saw an article yesterday, and the article said Democrats lost by. I don't know what it was like, 35% to Trump in information deserts, which were electoral regions in the United States where there was no big local news, TV outlet or newspaper outlet. And I was like, there are no information deserts in the United States. Everybody's cell phone is full of information. That's how they get it. So we need to, you know, is it an information desert because they don't have a big local newspaper? Well, I mean, yeah, I wish they had a local newspaper. I wish they read the freaking newspaper. But 9% of Americans get their information from the newspaper and 5% from radio. And some. I don't want it is 20% or so from TV. And that's all the olds. Right? It's not like.
- [27:05]
Leigh McGowan
Yeah, and those people who are reading a newspaper also, you know, are pretty standard. They know who they're voting for. You know what I mean?
- [27:12]
David Rothkopf
I wish people had more information and they used the information they had. I wrote, there was once a story about the writer Gore Vidal, where somebody went up to him and said, did you know that only half of Americans read newspapers and only half of Americans vote? And he said, well, I hope it's the same half. Well, it's not. It's not. It's not. And it's time that we sort of wake up and recognize that we've got the tools and we've got the. I mean, you know, the one thing that was surpassingly stupid of the. Of a campaign that had so much money was, oh, we're only gonna focus on battleground states. We're not gonna focus on the states where, like California and New York, where we could have the turnout. And so we lost the popular vote for the first time ever. And that allows Trump to say, well, I got a big mandate. Well, that's politically relevant. It may not be relevant in the context of the Electoral College, but, you know, if Trump had lost the popular vote by millions of votes again, the political aftershocks of the election would have been different. Right, because people wouldn't have been going, oh, well, we all have to be more Trumpy, you know, which is the idiocy that we're now getting. And, you know, I talked to Democrats, serious people that you would go, oh, that's a, you know, that's a well known name in the past five weeks. And they're like, well, this thing of caring about trans rights, that's gotta go. Nobody wants a man playing against their girl's soccer team. And I was like, what are you talking about? That doesn't happen. And then they're like, and on immigration, I think Trump's right. I just think we gotta get rid of all these immigrants. And I'm like, what?
- [29:02]
Leigh McGowan
This is their reaction to losing. They're thinking, oh, we need to embrace what the other side is saying.
- [29:07]
David Rothkopf
There's a natural tendency to split the difference. Right. And in 1992, back in the day, you were in elementary school, but I.
- [29:16]
Leigh McGowan
Went into the Clinton was not us in high school.
- [29:19]
David Rothkopf
Well, I was very young member of the Clinton administration. And when I went into the Clinton administration, we kind of thought New Democrat. What Clinton did was he said, well, Reagan was here, I'm going to split the difference. And that was the big innovation. Centrist Democrats. Well, it was a big mistake. And it led to growing inequality and neoliberalism and a bunch of things that I personally regret having been involved with. But it was sensible, at least at the time, to consider splitting the difference with a not completely insane Republican Party. You can't split the difference with Donald Trump. You can't go, oh, yeah, I'd like a half authoritarian country, and I would like to be half a kleptocracy, and I would like to ban some books.
- [30:11]
Leigh McGowan
And give some women their rights, but not, I mean, no, you can't split the difference.
- [30:16]
David Rothkopf
Well, also, the thing is that the center has shifted and progressive values are in the center. Right. What are progressive values? But just take, you know, everybody should have health care. People shouldn't kill each other with machine guns. Let's not destroy the environment, let's have tax Laws that are fair, let's have better education system, Those are all like progressive, right? And they're all supported by 70% of Americans. So you don't have to move to the center, the center has moved to you. You have to communicate to the center that you know and a two way kind of communications that the things you care about, one party believes in those, the other one doesn't.
- [30:59]
Leigh McGowan
Yeah. And that's why I think the Democrats really need to rebuild from the ground up, that they need to change, that they need to abandon these norms and acknowledge the reality. I think people have been crazy for a long time that they haven't done that. I think we need to return to a 50 state strategy where we're strengthening local and state power and the election apparatus itself. But also we're expressing that we are the party that was looking out for you. We want you to have a living wage, we want you to have your unions, we want you to have health care and affordable college and we think you should be educated and we don't think you should go bankrupt for the bad luck of getting cancer. These are all positions we already have. Not to mention that freedom is the number one thing Americans love and the Democrats are 100% the party of freedom. Be who you wanna be, love who you wanna love, read what you wanna read. You know, like that's all Democratic positions. So I think it's not, this isn't some crazy reimagining that we have to do. It's just about embracing where we already were. And I think part of that is you can't fight a rising oligarchy with your own oligarchs. You can't continue to capitulate to your own super rich and be a fully populist party. And if you want to be the party of 70 plus percent of the country, 80 plus percent of the country, then you have to embrace those values rather than trying to keep making money the way you used to make money. And I have to say if I hear one person talk about like, like reaching across the aisle to, you know, come halfway and like you're saying authoritarianism, that will make me bananas. Do I think we need to try and flip some of these people? Especially with such a limited majority in Congress, of course there's going to be three or four Republicans that are like, this sounds crazy, I can't, you know, stand for it. But some of them are more afraid of being primaried by Donald Trump or called out by Donald Trump than they are of doing the right thing. And I think that's exhausting. I think ultimately you were saying in a post election piece that while there has been an overabundance of hot takes as to why Trump edged out the Democrats in this election, most of it is just symptoms of post election hyperventilation. We're trying to put reason to something, right? We need to remember that big picture, the majority of Americans did not vote to reject democracy. That Trump did not win some massive victory or anything even resembling a mandate, that, that the electorate is at best for him evenly divided. Right. Like these are important things to keep reminding ourselves of. That no matter how much he might want to, say, run for reelection again, constitutionally, he can't. He will have to pick a successor. And he's not a long term thinker and he doesn't care about the country. He doesn't care about anyone other than himself. So this walking ID that we now have as a leader is going to make mistakes. And he surrounded himself by people who are all billionaires. I think his cabinet has a collective worth of $360 billion. Those are all a certain type of personality. You get to be a billionaire, you're a certain type of personality king, you know, master of the universe types. Those guys are going to fight amongst themselves too. And I think we have to allow that to happen. It's going to be ugly for us. But he's surrounded himself with shameless opportunists who are all looking out for themselves. So that will be something to watch out for. What do you think about that? I know everything feels more expensive these days. Groceries, gas, even the basics. But if you're in the market for hearing aids, those prices are absolutely wild. That is why I was happy to find out that mDhearing is doing the opposite of everyone else. 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Sundays for dogs.com/ politics girl he's surrounded himself with shameless opportunists who are all looking out for themselves, so that will be something to watch out for. What do you think about that I.
- [37:22]
David Rothkopf
Think it's exactly right. By the way, I think elon just passed 400 billion himself. Just.
- [37:28]
Leigh McGowan
Yeah, I think he wants to be a trillionaire by 2029. That's what I've heard.
- [37:31]
David Rothkopf
Well, you know, he's picked the right path. And by the way, I think these people are so self interested that they'll talk about autocracy and they'll so forth, but watch out for kleptocracy. They're gonna rip off the United States in ways that we have never seen before and it's gonna be ugly. But, you know, you get to a bigger issue and you talk about big picture. And I do think, you know, putting Trump in perspective is important. Putting his win in context. He's never been supported by the majority of Americans ever, in any election, in any opinion poll, ever. He's a voice of a minority. So I think the Democrats should do pretty well in 2026 and 2020 28. And I think there are ways that we can reduce the damage done by Trump. And I think some of the things that he does we will be able to recover from. But you got to a much, much, much bigger point, one that really weighs on me right now. For the past 40 years, inequality has been growing in the United States at an unsustainable rate. Justice Brandeis said, in the 20s or 30s, you can either have a few people who control the vast majority of the wealth, or you can have a democracy. You can't have both. Right now we live in a country where a fraction of 1% of the people have the same amount of wealth as the bottom 90% of the people. Because of the nature of politics, that gives them even pre Citizens United, but certainly post Citizens United, that gives them the vast majority of the voice. We live in a country that serves an oligarchy, and we need to focus also longer term on fixing that agenda. Because it won't be Trump that will be the end of democracy. It will be the fact that we've spent the past several decades, decades, ignoring the de democratization of the United States as those oligarchs. And I had a conversation like this a couple days ago and a guy was like, well, don't go after the billionaires, because people like billionaires, because everybody wants to make a lot of money. And it's like, slow your roll there, buddy. This is the kind of language that has enabled them to get where they are. And, and I think this is a much bigger problem. This is the big picture problem. Either we're going to be a Country that's run for the top 100th of 1/10 of 1%. Buy them for them with rules that suit them. And all the rest of us are friggin worker bees down in the hive getting a little bit, but, but essentially doing what we can do for them. Or we're going to seek to change that with sensible tax laws, with laws that protect the dignity of the people who are disenfranchised, the old, the infirm, minorities that are cut out by society. Either we're working to lift people up, as Kamala Harris said, or ultimately we will all be responsible, responsible for the end of what remains of our democracy. It is self deception to say that we are a democracy right now, given the power that a very few people have.
- [41:09]
Leigh McGowan
Absolutely without a doubt. And I think that's the opportunity I believe the Democrats have if they really embrace their role as the opposition, if they have the balls to protect us and the people and the institutions and the rule of law. But they also, also speak to what most people want. Which goes back to what you were saying about my book about common sense. Like you should be able to send your kids to a school where they're not gonna get shot. You should be able to get sick in this very wealthy country and not die because you can't afford your medication. You should be able to work your job and have a living wage. You should be able to afford groceries. In this nation that is supposed to be the wealthiest nation in the world and right now it is the wealthiest nation in the world. But what you're saying is of buy and for billionaires. And what we're seeing with Trump's cab and what we're seeing with the people that are surrounding him by. And what we're seeing with people like Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos, who are both in extraordinary positions to fight back, to stand up for democracy, they're already capitulating and giving, you know, a million dollars to his inauguration fund so he can have a better party. And I'm like, ugh. Because it's just, you know, these are the people that have the absolute ability to fight back. And when people say we gotta support the billionaires, I'm like, we really don't. We have to support the people. And I think this is the moment where if you really get it, you can start speaking to in the language they're going to understand. And if we can hold on to the institutions of democracy until 2026, that gives us two full years to speak to the people and win elections and Then flip the way we look at the country by 2028. But that doesn't happen if we just capitulate and roll over for these people that are going to do terrible things to us in the name of their own bottom line. You said in one of your substacks that one of the compounding problems in this country is the wealthiest and the most powerful in our society tend to influence society to continue to work for them. Right. Like that's what we're seeing. It's been going on for 40 years, and a lot of us have been left behind. Most of us have been left behind. People aren't wrong when they say that. Right. Then you added Citizens United to it. Then you added PACs and super PACs. Like, people don't even need the RNC or the DNC to give them money anymore with. So. So it's. It's all coming from PACs. Then you've got someone like Leonard Leo, who took over our court system using the Federalist Society so he could have full or, you know, control of that, because they knew they couldn't get their ideas through Congress because they didn't have popular ideas. So what they wanted to do was stop the laws at the legal level. Now he runs a company called Teneo, which already has been given billions of dollars to do what they did to the courts, to the rest of our society. Right. They've already got their mitts in traditional media. Now they're working on taking over our schools. So this isn't just about winning political elections. It's about our ability to change the sentiment of the nation and to hold onto a democracy that's already on very, very shaky ground. You know, like, we need to. And I think you've argued this, too, that to produce this sort of cultural change around how Americans see their lives, how we see our society, how we see our system of government. I mean, I wrote in my book, the sixth principle is government should be a force for good. We should expect that from our government. This idea that Reagan put out there, that, like, the scariest words in the English language or I'm from the government and I'm here to help. I'm like, why would you say that? Like, of course the government should be there to help. If you have a terrible hurricane, the government should come in and help you. If there is a pandemic, your government should be there to protect you. If there is a terrorist attack, your government should be there. The government should be there to help. And I feel like, ironically, putting people like Trump and Elon in charge might actually make it easier for us to accomplish a goal of showing the people that the system truly is rigged and it is the rich ruling over the rest of us. And maybe that gives us an opportunity to start clawing back our democracy on behalf of the people. That's what I'm hoping for.
- [45:09]
David Rothkopf
Well, I mean, it's essential if we're gonna survive all of this. I said the other day that, that the American or the leader that we've had in this country that Trump most resembles is George III and.
- [45:23]
Leigh McGowan
King of England.
- [45:24]
David Rothkopf
Right. But he wants to behave like a king. And Leonard Leo has promoted this idea of the unitary executive. And the whole idea is that the government reports to him and ultimately their secret ideas that the government therefore can be made to report to this few people who've got a lot of money, an aristocracy that picks a case. And so where are we? We're back to where we were 250 years ago. 2026 is the 250th anniversary of the American Revolution. And I think it's important for us to stop and say, well, what was that about? Because that was about a system in which the senior title in the United States government was voter. It wasn't president, the senior title was citizen. It was all of us, and the government was to work for us. And right now we've got a small group of aristocrats regaining the control that they had 251 years ago and saying, no, you work for us. We will give you as much as we need to to keep society stable, but no more than that as we go and we try to become trillionaires or sent a billionaires, and that's appalling. And by the way, it's got some other. It's like we're living in an era in which there's about to be a technological revolution with artificial intelligence. The people who are behind that revolution are now behind Trump because they don't want him to regulate what they do. And you guys can build into these systems, biases, prejudices, things that will be institutionalized now in the software that governs our daily lives if we're not careful. And so it gives them yet another tool for the consolidation and maintenance of their power over us. And this is not an overstatement. This is not like, like some kooky guy in a soapbox on a street corner in the middle of the Depression. This is our reality. And Americans get it. I mean, we've had this horrible episode in the past couple of weeks where a guy was murdered in cold blood in the street in New York City. That is appalling and it is never okay. But we have to learn from what the responses mean. Been the American people are disgusted with being taken advantage of, with being the only society in the developed world where health care is not a right, the only one where the leading cause of bankruptcy in the United States is medical expenses. The people are angry.
- [48:25]
Leigh McGowan
Justifiably angry.
- [48:27]
David Rothkopf
Justifiably.
- [48:28]
Leigh McGowan
That's the thing. Like this is if you're talking about an aristocracy and top down rule and the people that have their parties and build their spaceships and do their stuff. We'd done this in pre French Revolution France, we did this in the Gilded Age. In America we have done this where the people are the peasants and we do what we can to serve the masters and they can treat us how they want, what they want. I've always said that they didn't want to just roll back women's, they wanted to roll back civil rights and workers rights and everything that they could to get back to some form of the Gilded Age. And we have to be aware that there, there also is a historical pitchfork age where people come for the oligarchs. And I think there's a reason people like Mark Zuckerberg are building huge compounds and bunkers under the ground in Hawaii. And it's not because of the aliens, it's because of the people they know that they have removed themselves so much from that we become a danger to them. And so I think they're trying to control us in a way that you can see with this healthcare executive getting murdered in New York. It's not like people don't get murdered in New York every day. I think even the fallout from that manhunt that they put into it and the FBI putting money behind it and the NYPD putting money behind it, you don't do that for most murders. You know what I mean? Like they said, this is a person worth finding the murderer of where whereas murders go unsolved every day. I think even that made people unhappy and I think we have to acknowledge that. And again, it returns me to where the Democrats need to be. They need to be speaking to people who are just that unhappy justifiably at how they've been treated by their society and who's making money off the backs of their own suffering. Right. So before you go, you wrote an article for Substack right after the election about the fact that you still feel optimistic about America. And so before you leave, where is your optimism coming from now. And do you still have it?
- [50:33]
David Rothkopf
Yes, I am optimistic. I see the problems clearly. We've identified the problems very clearly. But I also know that Trump is a minority president, that he is not terribly competent. He didn't do much the last time, that we do have a number of tools to control him. And so while I think we need to be on the guard for, you know, downward slide and further loss of Democratic prerogatives in this country, I think it's easy to overstate the threat. But the vast majority of American people are, I think, fundamentally good. And I think the vast majority of American people are the hope of this country. And we have through thick and thin, thin vibrant economy. We have through thick and thin innovation in America. We have, whenever we have faced challenges like this, whether it was slavery or the Civil war, World War I or World War II, or even, frankly, Covid with Trump and then the Biden administration, we find our way through it and we end up better on the other side. And I think we can do that again. I believe we can do that again. And I believe there are good next generation leaders in the Democratic Party. And I believe there will never be a case made to the American people of the vapidity and dangers of the Trump administration like the next couple of years of the Trump administration. And so you and I and everybody else who's got a platform can say, look at this, here's the example. I mean, it happened yesterday. All of a sudden, Trump, who ran on the cost of eggs is too high, said, you know, it's really hard to get the cost down. And he knows that if he does these tariffs, the costs are going to go up. Well, it's like somebody's going to have the chance to say to the American people, see, it's not good for you. This is hurting you. It's helping Elon. It's hurting you. And I think we have an opportunity to get that word out. And if we do get that word out, 2026, we can do better and get the majority in the house back in 2028. We can win the presidency back and we can fix some of this stuff. And hopefully we will learn from where we've fallen short. So, look, where there is life, there is hope. And we have life.
- [52:56]
Leigh McGowan
So we have hope, which is also why we need good leadership and messaging on our end, so we can pick those people up as they see the things that are hurting them and build a true opposition to what's going on and make it assured. I always say, just throw sand in the gears of the fascist machine as it tries to get up and running. Point out that the tariffs are raising prices. Point out that they've disrupted our supply chain, Point out that their tax cuts are hurting us. And helping them point out that stripping away the rights of Americans is detrimental and against our essential freedoms. We have to keep pointing it out. And I think that's why the Democrats need to either lead or get out of the way during this period of time. I wanna thank you so much for joining us today, David. I mean, you're historic of politics and power, and you've said that everything, you know, suggests that at the end, progress always triumphs. And it doesn't mean that it won't come after incredible hardship, but it also means that it's not all over. And I think that's something that we need to really hang on to, that we're gonna need to fight during this period of time. But we could end up somewhere better, you know, somewhere better like we did after the civil Rights movement, somewhere better like we did after the women's rights movement. I went to an event last weekend with Democrats in Palm Springs, and most of the leaders are women in their 70s. And they were like, forget this. You know, like these young girls, they don't know. We fought. You know, we did this. We. We burned our bras, we fought in the streets, we couldn't sign leases, we couldn't get our own cars, we couldn't get our own houses. We've done this before. We'll do it again. They were so fired up, and their lack of fear was contagious. I found them inspirational. And I think there's a lot of people out there who feel like that. Right. So please let people know how to follow your work moving forward into this new world, because we're going to need thoughtful thinkers like you as we move forward to know where we're going and where to get true information.
- [54:43]
David Rothkopf
Well, it's nice of you to say that. I do have a substack called need to know. DavidRothkof substack.com I'm@bluesky. I'm off of Twitter altogether because I think it's a bad place run by bad man. And I'm finding Blue sky to be terrific. I think they've got 25 million users right now. It's a great place. And of course, I have a company that does podcasts. We do 15, 17 podcasts a week. It's going up in January. It's called the DSR Network. DSRNetwork.com and I hope people will go there or read the columns I write every week at the Daily Beast.
- [55:17]
Leigh McGowan
Absolutely. So we're moving forward. We block the worst of the hardship. We slow them down. And between now and 2026, we protect our democratic institutions and really stand behind leaders that want to fight.
- [55:28]
David Rothkopf
And we take care of each other. We have to maintain our sense of humor. We've got to get through this. We shouldn't despair. And when people are naturally despairing because there's some difficult, difficult things happening, we have to lift them up and focus on what's possible. And work for it.
- [55:43]
Leigh McGowan
Yeah, work for it. Not on our watch. Not on our watch.
- [55:48]
David Rothkopf
Exactly.
- [55:49]
Leigh McGowan
Thank you, David.
- [55:51]
David Rothkopf
Thank you very much.
- [55:53]
Leigh McGowan
So that was David Rothkop reminding us not to get mired down in the minutiae of this next administration, but to keep a perspective on the bigger picture. Ask yourself, what is real right now and what can we do about it? That while Trump can do a lot of damage to our institutions, our way of life, our rule of law damage, that we must be on guard and fight against. One of the biggest things to acknowledge as we work to restore democracy in America is that American democracy has always been flawed, that we have always favored a select few over the many. And that in itself must change. This new kleptocratic oligarchic government will only put a giant spotlight on the American aristocracy. And with good leadership, proper messaging, and the protection of our democratic institutions, we can wrestle that power back from them with the majority of the nation behind us. These monsters will overreach, and we have to make sure their hubris is ultimately their downfall. I want to thank David for joining us today and you for caring enough about this country to be here. Now go look out for each other and rest up for the fight ahead. Until next week. PG out. Before you go, I just want to say, if you're a premium member of this podcast, thank you. And if you're not, please consider supporting my work. The mainstream media has let us down, and now more than ever, it is essential that those of us doing independent work are supported. One of the main reasons this election played out the way it did was the power of the right wing media ecosystem. It is so far reaching and well funded that their propaganda was so effective. The extremists have been able to shape the mindset of a fair amount of this nation, and our side just did not invest in independent voices like we needed to, and we have to fix that now. So if you aren't a member of Politics Girl Premium, please consider going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. I can't continue this now potentially dangerous work without your help. The beauty of signing up to support me is that you will get this podcast ad free, along with all of my short rants sent directly to your inbox. So even if my work is silenced on social media, you will still get access to the truth. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode, but also@politicsgirl.com thank you in advance for your time and support. The Politics Girl Podcast is written and performed by me, Leigh McGowan in partnership with the Midas Media Network and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.