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The PoliticsGirl Podcast
What Will the Military Do? : A Conversation with CEO of Vet Voice Janessa Goldbeck
00:54:36
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- [00:00]
Janessa Goldbeck
We're going to put the National Guard, who, by the way, are, you know, young men and women from working in middle class neighborhoods who signed up to serve their communities in times of natural disasters or go overseas and protect the homeland. They did not sign up to be ICE agents or do immigration enforcement or police their own neighbors. And he's sending these people against their own volition, against the wishes of local law enforcement and elected leaders into these cities in these highly charged partisan situations in, in order to create an escalation that will then allow for further militarization.
- [00:42]
Lee McGowan
Hello and welcome to the Politics Girl Podcast. I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it. Well, I legitimately shut down after watching that Pete Hegseth Donald Trump meeting with the 800 of the military's top brass last week. It was like my brain short circuited because I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I couldn't process how demoralizing the whole thing felt. I didn't recognize my country. And as someone who lives in a blue city, one that was named as a place that needs to be brought under control by the US Military, as someone who does this kind of work and would definitely fall into the enemy from within category that our president was telling these officers they needed to violently engage with, I found myself horrified. So I took to my bed legitimately for about four hours. I totally shut down. As I always say, I don't do the news. I explain the news. And I couldn't even explain what I had seen to myself, let alone make it make sense for other people. So I did as much research as possible, then watched Lady Chatterley's Lover and took a nap. I did, however, also reach out to my friend Janessa Goldbeck, the CEO of Vet Voice foundation, the national nonprofit that advocates for veterans and military families to act, actively participate in our democracy. As a Marine Corps combat engineer officer, Janessa led missions overseas and supported service members. As a uniformed victim advocate, I knew I needed perspective on what I'd witnessed. And I knew Janessa would be the perfect person to give insight into what we saw, why it was important, and where we go from here. There's a lot of things to be outraged about right now, a lot of things that feel terrifying. And quite frankly, there was a lot of things in that meeting that were humiliating for the speakers, for the audience who had to sit through it, and for the country who I think was shamed by it. But the bottom line to me was that what we saw was deeply dangerous. So let's get into it.
- [02:31]
Without further ado, please welcome my guest.
- [02:33]
Former Marine human rights advocate and CEO of Vet Voice Foundation, Janessa Goldbeck.
- [02:38]
Thank you for coming back, Janessa.
- [02:40]
Janessa Goldbeck
Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure.
- [02:42]
Lee McGowan
Is it a pleasure right now? What are we even doing? I called you like the day we watched this thing go down, and I was like, what am I looking at? Please come and talk to us. Because listen, as a military person, please tell people right off the jump how unprecedented is for the Secretary of Defense to call a meeting with that many military leaders in a publicized place at a certain time, and then even more so to add the President to that mix.
- [03:08]
Janessa Goldbeck
Never happened in my lifetime. Hasn't happened in modern history. You know, the idea of taking these very serious leaders away from their operational commands and making them fly thousands of miles on the taxpayer dime to Quantico for a published event, that's public, let alone the security risk that this pose, the immense cost, the millions of dollars wasted on travel, but just time. You know, these people have real jobs. They have. They are leading troops who are countering real threats from our near peer adversaries and cartels around the globe. And we are taking them away from the responsibility of keeping our service members safe and our homeland safe and bringing them to basically what amounted to a pep rally that Hegseth wanted to throw to make himself feel big. I mean, I have never seen something more embarrassing. And I really have to say that I respect and admire how the generals and admirals responded, which is they didn't. They sat there stone faced. They did not feed into his ego or, you know, laugh along with his jokes. And I think that took real discipline.
- [04:10]
But it just shows you these are.
- [04:12]
Actual serious people with years of experience who understand that the military is not.
- [04:15]
Supposed to be used as a partisan prop.
- [04:18]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, it's almost like you're watching what real professionalism looks like. Look, we haven't. With the leadership we've had for the past nine months, it's almost like you forget what people who are following their responsibility, doing the job that they're supposed to do, how they're supposed to behave. Everything has become so reality TV based and like out of control, and everything is unprecedented that you just feel like what's even happening. And then you see those people sitting there with respect, not doing anything, listening to, taking it in, but not giving more than they needed to. You know, to call all those officers in. Like you said, some of those people are in active war zones. Right. To listen to essentially a three hour pep rally. I feel like it was a performance, right? Like it was done with purpose. And I know I'm not alone with the rage I felt watching it. When it was done, I felt genuinely sick to my stomach. I married into a really devoted and patriotic military family. And what that was, was just the polar opposite of everything I have learned that they stood for, that they respected, that they had worked for. And I think it's easy to make fun of it because, I mean, quite frankly, it was just so embarrassing. But I mean, Hegseth basically stood up there and said, look better in your uniforms. No fatties, no uggos, you know. But the actual event was really chilling, 100%.
- [05:35]
Janessa Goldbeck
I think that's the tension with this administration writ large is the things that they do and say are for TV moments. They're comically like villainous and cartoonishly so. And yet what they're actually doing is also very dark, very destructive and driven by animus towards people who are not white Christian nationalists. And I really fundamentally, I mean, I think there, there are plenty of things, I'm sure we'll get into them that Pete Hegseth said that are just so antithetical to the ethos of the modern professional military, things that Trump support said that are antithetical to democracy and the values this country was supposedly founded on. But at the same time, they look like absolute clowns. And Pete Hexev up there, I mean, I think he, he's a guy with a, a hole in his heart. I, I don't think anything will fill it. He reminds me of guys that you met in high school and college who felt like they had to make other people look small in order to look big. And it just reeks of insecurity. So to watch that in contrast to these, you know, generals and flag officers who have spent 25, 30 years in the military toughening themselves, having to make very hard choices, making real sacrifice. The contrast couldn't have been more stark.
- [06:51]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, Pete and Donald are in many ways like 80s high school villains or like frat boy villains. Right? Like it's Biff Taylor from Back to the Future. Like it almost exactly what I was thinking, like, it almost feels comical, right? Like Pete had a bunch of lines that I think he thought would be crowd pleasers, like telling the enemies to F A F O and then getting zero response from the audience. He just had moment after moment that he clearly thought were mic drop moments that were really pin drop moments. Cuz it was so silent and, you know, a lot was made of the lack of clapping. And I'VE heard conflicting stories that military are not trained just to clap, but then I've seen videos of them clapping for other speakers. So what are your thoughts on that one?
- [07:38]
Janessa Goldbeck
Yeah, I mean, I think general officers in particular know that they are not supposed to react in a partisan environment. Like when you watch the State of the Union, you usually have the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the service branches up front, and they don't clap during the State of the Union ever. That's kind of the norm. And so I think going into this, these flag and general officers knew that this was going to be a very partisan, highly charged event. And so I'm certain that whatever communication network occurs with all of them, that they're jags and all their legal advisors, the ones that are still left. Anyways.
- [08:10]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, I was gonna say a lot of those Jags are gone. And for people that don't understand, the jags are the, The. They're sort of the lawyers of the military that tell the military what is a legal order, what is an illegal order, sort of act as kind of the jiminy cricket to what orders are given to the moral center, to what orders are given to the military. And Donald Trump and this administration have got rid of a lot of those JAG lawyers.
- [08:36]
Janessa Goldbeck
They have, and they've also gotten rid of the inspectors general who, you know, if something, if an action is taken and there's a question about whether or not it was legal or illegal, those inspectors general are responsible for investigating that, and those folks are now gone as well. So I think, you know, I think it really is a testament to the discipline of the senior officer corps that they knew coming into it that they were not going to be used as a prop. And so they, they didn't respond. But also, just watching Pete Hegseth up there, I mean, look, the best leaders in the military or in the civilian world, wherever, are people that you want to follow because you want to emulate their example. And weak leaders are people who think they need to project some sort of hyper, you know, masculine or hyper inflated sense of strength. And they do that not by their example, but by their words. And Pete Hegset, this is a perfect example of that. There he was up on stage, you know, doing a big show about standards for women and combat arms professions, even though, by the way, and this has been misreported a lot, there is one standard for all combat arms jobs, a gender neutral standard. Now, are there annual fitness tests that are weighted towards gender? Absolutely. But you have to be able to do that gender Neutral standard just to have the job in the first place. So this is like an issue that doesn't exist, that was litigated over a decade ago and women have been serving honorably and exceeding, excelling and in these professions ever since. So here he is on stage making this big show about talking about fitness standards and how they're going to be held to the highest male standards. When a couple of weeks ago he tried to do a pull up competition with RFK in the Pentagon gym and put this video on the Internet which I couldn't believe that this got authorisk on the Internet where he is not doing a single to standard pull up. Like none of those pull ups would have counted in the Marine Corps. So talk in a big talk can't walk the walk. Ultimate sign of a weak leader.
- [10:25]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, absolutely. I mean Pete was also up there doing essentially a TED Talk style wandering speech, right? So he was all over the stage. He, you know, he was pausing and looking at the camera. I mean it was very Fox News Weekend, right? Like he, he's bashing woke culture. He's talking like you said, about the aesthetics of soldiers from their bodies to their haircuts. He said the military would be returning to, as you're saying, this highest male standard, but that's not really a thing and they would be no longer politically correct but this fighting and winning machine. He also described the military as warriors who kill people and break things for a living. And he said you are not politically correct and you don't always belong in polite society. What do you make of that?
- [11:11]
Janessa Goldbeck
This has been his like take on the military from the beginning. And again it goes back to somebody who has never seen the real deal. He thinks toughness is this comic book, you know, he man version of strength. And look, this is a guy who was a major in the Army National Guard. Like no, no shade to the Army National Guard. But if you're such a big tough guy, like join the Marine Corps, like I don't know, be in Special Forces, like do something. Yeah, like come on dude. Like I am, I'm so sorry. But just to hear a guy who basically by the way like wrote a desk and, and was, was never, you know, I'm not going to denigrate his service but like to, to, to come at other people's service and to reshape what it means to be in the military in a way that only fits your very narrow definition is just so uneducated. And for this guy to be the Secretary of Defense and not understand that actually we need nerds who know how to engineer, and we need people who can fly drones, and they do that because they've played video games for their whole childhoods. Not saying that we shouldn't have high physical standards for everybody. I wish all of America, you know, had high physical standards, and I wish we had healthy food that people could eat to get them there and access to gyms and open spaces and all of that. But the reality is that the force is very complex and diverse for a reason, because this mission set is complex and diverse. And to stand up in front of all those generals and admirals and reveal that you don't actually know what the military is and what it needs in order to succeed was just really embarrassing for him.
- [12:46]
Lee McGowan
It was really embarrassing. And, like, I don't even need to have been in the military to have seen that. You know, like, we should remind people that since taking on the role of Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth has made major cuts to top military ranks, right? Firing several leaders, including the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, who was a black general, and the woman who was the Navy's top officer and the woman that was in charge of the Coast Guard. And he spent a lot of his speech talking about how woke culture had ruined the military, that it was nearly impossible to change a culture with the same people who had helped create that culture or benefited from that culture, implying that people who are people of color, women, had benefited from some sort of DEI policy, and that was the only reason that they were there in the first place, which, as you said, for someone that, you know, essentially didn't do the highest standard of military training and or combat is kind of shocking for him to say that they had got there as DEI hires rather than merit. But this idea that the US Military isn't well trained or highly effective must have felt really insulting to all the people in that room. I mean, people who have been in combat who have had to adopt and adapt to the changing weapons systems that we had. You were talking about drones, you know, people who have devoted their lives to these positions. I mean, isn't the American military known for being excellent? Like, who is he talking to?
- [14:09]
Janessa Goldbeck
We have the most professional and most lethal fighting force in the entire world. It was incredibly offensive for him to imply that the military has been, you know, not up to snuff. We have never had a more competent and complex military. But that doesn't mean that we haven't made some serious mistakes strategically. The conflicts we've engaged in, the way we fought those wars, like, those deserve critique. But who ultimately is making those decisions? Elected leaders, political leaders, Congress. We've seen completely abdicate its responsibility for authorizing use of force. We've got AUMFS authorizations for use of military force that have been in place since, you know, 2001. And we have not seen any real litigation of our strategies overseas. Those things deserve real criticism. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't look at, look very hard at those decisions and the way we've put our military into the world and into danger. But it hasn't been the tactical ability of the US Military that has made us unsuccessful in the Middle east or in other places around the globe. It's the very short sighted or bureaucratic or no sided vision that elected leaders have had about our strategies overseas. And so I just again, he is the least qualified Secretary of Defense we've ever had. For him to stand in front of a bunch of folks who have served and actually given their lives to making the military stronger and better when he has had the opportunity as somebody outside a pundit with a major platform to influence the conversation about how we employ our military, than for him to stand up there and say, you're the, you're the bad guys and I alone can fix it. I mean, what a self aggrandizing tool.
- [15:48]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, it seems like Pete's concept of the military is that their main purpose is to look good while killing people. That's what I kind of got out of it. But you were in the military. I mean, isn't it also about diplomacy and problem solving and peacekeeping and global cooperation?
- [16:08]
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- [19:43]
Were in the military. I mean, isn't it also about diplomacy and problem solving and peacekeeping and global cooperation?
- [19:51]
Janessa Goldbeck
This is such a great point. And I think, you know, for folks who haven't served, you might be wondering, well, what, like, what does the military do when we're not, like, actively fighting a war in a conflict zone? Well, I actually never served in a combat zone. I deployed a couple of times to Europe. Really not. Not exactly harsh deployments, but my deployments were in support of NATO operations. So what we were doing is we were going into the field with NATO allies and in some cases, other European nations that were hopeful NATO allies in order to share the expertise that we had to train side by side so that in the case of a conflict that we were all drawn into, we would know how to operate together. And what happens when you do that type of training? One is sort of just this. This natural diplomacy. You get to know people who are different than you. You get to learn things about their culture. You get to share expertise, trade, weapons, systems, like, see what they're working with, see what we're working with. And all of that is a way that we strengthen the bonds that keep our world safe and keep America safe, frankly, because we have these allies that we know how to operate with. It's also something I think a lot of people never see, is that the military is, you know, it's one of the last places in American society where people come together from all different backgrounds. It isn't just poor kids with no option who join the military. Actually, that's. That's a pretty outdated stereotype. It's people from all walks of life, all classes, all races, all genders, backgrounds, political beliefs who come together, put themselves through a really rigorous training, suffer together through sacrifice and discomfort, and are working towards a common cause. And that, on its own, is very worthwhile. That. That experience of bonding and coming together to achieve a mission across differences, that is something that strengthens the fabric of our society. It isn't just about going out and killing people in fact, the majority of people who serve in the military will never serve in combat and will never have to face that really tough moral and ethical situation. And for the people that I know who have served in combat, who've deployed in combat multiple times, who've engaged in firefights, who may have contributed to someone's demise, like, no one I know who is a sane person wants that for other people. Nobody relishes that. There are people like, look, the world is not a safe place. We need there to be people who are willing to go out and do really tough things to keep us safe. But if those people are celebrating that and, you know, loving that factor, like, that's a psychopathic attitude to have. And I, I think that what his vision, again, of strength and toughness is one that comes from a place of weakness.
- [22:25]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, no, I think about that. I can't think of the soldier's name now, but there was a soldier that was brought up by his own platoon for war crimes who took joy in shooting civilians overseas. And then there was a prisoner of war that was, you know, handcuffed to a hospital bed, and he slit his throat in front his own platoon members and then made his platoon members pose with the dead body. And they turned him in. They were like, he's psychotic and he's got bloodlust and he doesn't represent the American military. And he was court martialed and he was jailed. And one of the first things that Donald Trump did was pardon him, and Pete had just celebrated him, and they had him at the White House. And I think that's the kind of ethos that they think is really cool. And I think that's the kind of ethos we should be terrified by. If these are the leaders we have in charge.
- [23:12]
Janessa Goldbeck
Yeah, it's, you know, like, like I said, the world. I'm not, I'm not Pollyannaish about the world. There are. There are bad people out there who wish Americans ill and want to come after us, and there are people who will try to do that, and they need to be stopped. But what is it, what kind of world is it that we want to live in? You know, it's kind of like, I think about the troops in the streets in Washington, D.C. right now. You know, Donald Trump is crowing about, oh, how crime has gone down. Well, because there are armed, you know, uniformed military in the streets. That's what North Korea looks like. Is that the society that Americans want to live in? I was down in Texas last week on the border with the Texas Civil Rights Project, touring the militarization of the border and talking with National Guard members who were serving down there or had served down there and within the state of Texas. Not like crossing an international border into Mexico, but within the state of Texas. Our bus was stopped three times by Customs and Border Protection. Three times we were boarded by a CPB officer who asked us if we were US Citizens. One time we were getting on the bus, we were on a Native American reservation, so technically you would think on sovereign land, but they must have some sort of legal agreement with cbb. One of the people on the bus with me was a journalist from Der Spiegel, a German national. And he went for a walk, like literally within eyesight of the bus. And we were swarmed by a dozen CBB vehicles. They boarded the bus. They say, hey, did somebody go for a walk? And this was a white journalist, a German journalist. And when they saw him, he was like, yeah, oh, it was me. And they just kind of laughed it off. Got off the bus. He was actually not a US Citizen. They didn't like, of all the people on the bus, he was not, but he was white. So they just looked at him. I felt, you know, I felt unsafe all of those times. And I am an American citizen, a Marine Corps veteran, a white woman. Like, I cannot imagine what it's like to be anything else and go through something like that. And that is inside of America. Is that how. Is that what we think is like a free country? Is that the thing that. Is that the way we want to live? Is that how people want to live? And I think that this administration, Pete Hegstead, trump the militarization of our nation, this glory and bloodlust, like that is their vision for America. And to me, that is fundamentally not who we are as a country.
- [25:27]
Lee McGowan
No, it's fundamentally horrifying. I mean, you're talking about, like, look, you're not going to be Pollyanna, right? Like, it's not that there aren't people out there who are looking to hurt Americans. My concern is that they're all here now. Like, the people that want to hurt Americans the most are here. So let's talk a little bit about what the President said at that same event. Right? He said he basically did his enemy from within speech again. He said that the biggest war that the people in that room would fight, the biggest military generals and admirals and top notch brass would be the war from within, that the military's new battleground was at home. So talk me through what you thought about that, because that to me was just terrifying.
- [26:05]
Janessa Goldbeck
So I think, you know, that before I joined the Marine Corps, kind of late, I joined when I was 26. Before that, I worked in human rights advocacy work, specifically civilian protection, in conflict zones, and specifically conflict zones that were genocides or mass atrocities, where actors, state actors, were actively trying to eliminate or eradicate a portion of their population. Think Darfur, Sudan. That was a big area that I worked on. As part of that work, we worked alongside the State Department and other agencies to identify early warning signals of when there might be a genocide on the cusp or a state actor about to take some really significant and dangerous action against a particular population. If we applied the criteria that we used then to look for early warning signals in other places, America would be five alarm fire, red bells ringing. The President of the United States saying that the radical left, anyone who disagrees with him, that American cities are going to be used as training ground for the US Military. And not just his rhetoric. I mean, they have actually put out a national security strategy that reorients our military focus to the domestic homeland, away from China, away from Russia, away from our near peer adversaries and actors who are actively building and spending and training to harm America and our interests and to focus it on his perceived enemies at home. You know, that. Not to be hyperbolic, but that is genocidal language that is painting everyone who disagrees with him with a brush, that we are enemies, that we should be eliminated. I mean, yeah, sickening.
- [27:44]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. No, I mean, the President very clearly reiterated his plan to send the National Guard troops and the military into more cities across America, specifically, you know, targeting the cities run by what he calls the radical left. And Democrats like San Francisco and Chicago and New York and Los Angeles, saying that they were incredibly unsafe places and the military would have to straighten them out one by one, which is a distinct threat. Or in one case, he suggested the military, as you're saying, be used even in inner cities or blue cities as a training ground. Like you're going to use American citizens as enemy combatants for them to practice on, which is, I mean, terrifying. It's hard not to read that as declaring war on your own people. You know, if you're not with me, you're against me, and I will use the full weight of the American military to destroy you. I mean, both the President and the Secretary of Defense basically said, listen, if you're listening to this and it's making you sick or you're listening to this and you don't like it, you don't have to agree, but you can leave and you can lose your entire career because of it. I felt like that was a crazy way to address it. Did you think that? I mean, it felt like he was threatening the room as well.
- [28:54]
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- [32:59]
President and the Secretary of Defense basically said, listen, if you're listening to this and it's making you sick or you're listening to this and you don't like it, you don't have to agree, but you can leave and you can lose your entire career because of it. I felt like that was a crazy way to address it. Did you think that? I mean, it felt like he was threatening the room as well?
- [33:17]
Janessa Goldbeck
A hundred percent, yes. I mean, threatening the room with his big, you know, like cheshire cat smile and trying to make it seem like, oh, this is all a big joke. But no, I mean, it was. It was definitely heard. What he said was incredibly crazy, I think. Okay, a couple things. One, I have talked to a few National Guard generals who are either recently retired or led domestic deployments. And when I talk to them about the training grounds for American cities thing. They said, well, yeah, if, if he means laying rounds downrange, like, absolutely. That's nuts.
- [33:47]
Lee McGowan
What does that mean, laying rounds downrange?
- [33:49]
Janessa Goldbeck
Shoot, like shooting Americans? Yeah, that's, that's, that's, that's bad. That's illegal. Obviously, there are, there is some training value to these domestic deployments in the sense that, you know, they're having to stand up and mobilize and get their gear out and get people, you know, make sure people are got all their boxes checked, they can deploy and they have to do the administrative systems to get them paid. So, like, there is some TR value.
- [34:12]
Lee McGowan
Sure. But doesn't that sound like a way for smart people to be like, well, he could mean that this is just a great way for us to get together where we know he means, you know, like that scene in the Handmaid's Tale where all the women lose their jobs and lose their bank accounts and they go to protest on the street because that's their right and they open fire on them because you only have to open fire on a couple sets of protesters before people stop protesting. And that's what their brains are thinking.
- [34:36]
Janessa Goldbeck
And I think what he's attempting to do is, you know, all he doesn't have. I don't think he has the guts, I guess I would say, or that, or he's, I don't know. I'm not going to speculate what's going on in Donald Trump's brain.
- [34:49]
Lee McGowan
That's a terrifying, terrifying place to be.
- [34:53]
Janessa Goldbeck
A sea of dark oatmeal. But I think that this is all an attempt to create a situation just like that. We're going to put the National Guard, who, by the way, are, you know, young men and women from working in middle class neighborhoods who signed up to serve their communities in times of natural disasters or go overseas and protect the homeland. They did not sign up to be ICE agents or do immigration enforcement or police their own neighbors. And he's sending these people against their own volition, against the wishes of local law enforcement and elected leaders into these cities in these highly charged partisan situations in order to create an escalation that will then allow for further militarization and justify further militarization. And I do think this is all leading towards the 2026 election like that. This is just a way to kind of warm Americans up and get us used to seeing troops in the streets, for there to be some national voter fraud emergency in Michigan or Ohio or wherever, and for there to be National Guard deployed in the streets to really prevent people from voting or feeling safe to vote.
- [35:58]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, I mean, look, I was watching it and I thought, how is this not an impeachable offense? How is this entire event not a thing where the military brass themselves stood up and were like, okay, that's enough, like, this is treason. Because I don't understand how it is not against the Constitution for the President to say that America is under invasion from within. And then Donald Trump said, no different than a foreign enemy, but more difficult in many ways because they don't wear uniforms. At least when they're wearing a uniform, you can take them out. And he's talking about people like me and you and everyone that goes out and protests. People who pay their bills and take care of their kids and their parents who are working hard just to keep a roof over their head or pay for their healthcare. He wants the military to take us out. And I feel like that should matter. Right? He used an example of a protester, a female protester yelling in an officer's face. God knows if this was a real story or not a real story, but we've seen a million photos of like, you know, military meeting civilians and the civilian putting a flower in the gun. You know, like we've seen those, those images over the years. So let's say this is a true story where a female was yelling in an officer's face and he said, you know, she was spitting on him, meaning, like her, you know, it was coming out of her mouth because she was very aggressive and he didn't do anything. And I want to change those rules. I say, now if you spit, we hit. Those are the new rules. So he's saying soldiers should be able to hit women, hit protesters, run people over with their cars, run people over with their horses. Like you're saying whatever that term you used. And I was like, what the hell's that? And you were like opening fire on the people. Right now we're already seeing ICE officers smacking people around in buildings. We, we literally saw Black Hawk helicopters rappelling down to a Chicago apartment building to pull a bunch of people out of their beds. Zip tied children, naked children, zip tied naked children thrown in the back of a U Haul. I don't know. This is already happening. And if people don't know what happened in Chicago, look it up, because it is disgusting what happened. But they were using the weight of our law enforcement and our military equipment to literally wage domestic terrorism on our own people.
- [38:16]
Janessa Goldbeck
You're exactly right, it is. It's un American. There are so many violations of the Constitution that this president, this administration, is pursuing on every front. I mean, I feel sick to my stomach reading the news every morning, seeing what fresh horror they are bringing onto people and who they're targeting next, what vulnerable members of our society they're going after to make themselves feel tough and make the people who support this feel good about themselves. I read this story about the raid on the Chicago apartment building today, and this made my heart stop. And in some ways, it made me feel somewhat hopeful because I just can't wrap my head around the idea that the majority of Americans like this or think it's a good thing or support it. There was an anecdote in the Chicago Sun Times that a protester was sitting down in front of the police line and they were kind of dragging them away. And the protester yelled, are you proud of yourself? And the police officer yelled back, no, I'm not. And as they were dragging them out, and I think we've seen in recent days, the biggest association of law enforcement agencies put out a statement asking political leaders to tone down the rhetoric. I mean, it was very like both sides written. But the fact that they put that out at all, I think because it is making it harder for law enforcement to actually do their jobs in cities because people aren't reporting crime because they're afraid that ICE is going to show up with them or they don't. They can't distinguish who ICE is, who's a federal agent, who's a National Guardsman or woman, because the uniforms are all messed up and ICE is. Or they're not in uniforms, or they're not showing badges. And so it's actually giving people who do have bad intent, who are bad actors, license to operate because they know we're sort of in this weird cowboy culture now in some of these places that the President of the United States has authorized. And, yeah, I just have to feel like at some point there will be enough people who have actually been affected by this or seen it firsthand that we're going to say enough is enough. But how do we take power back if we don't have a free and fair election in 2026? Or if he says he's going to run again in 2028? I mean, there's just a lot of unknowns. But I have to believe that most Americans don't support this.
- [40:30]
Lee McGowan
Yeah, I agree. I also feel like, I think as a total side note to the elections, I feel like the Republican Party as it is now which is really the MAGA party, which is a violent sort of anti American party, really, at this point. I think they're taking a lot of liberties and thinking that people are just gonna continue to vote for Republicans. They're gerrymandering all these districts, and they think, well, we'll get all these Republican voters. And I'm like, how long are those people gonna necessarily vote Republican? You could hate the Democrats, but you could be like, I can't support this. I lost my neighbor. These people are getting hurt. This is. You know, it's detrimental to the military. It's detrimental to the American citizen. I feel like they're taking for granted that they're just gonna keep getting Republican votes. Like, it's possible you gerrymander an entire district into Republicans, but those people do not vote for you. And I think that we need to kind of keep that in mind, that elections will, in many ways, still matter if you can make a. An argument. Which is why anyone who is against what is happening right now must find a common ground together. Even if you don't agree on most things, if you agree that this is wrong, what is happening is wrong, wrong. And that brings me back to the military, right? Like, remind me again, officers take an oath to the Constitution, right? Not the President. Enlisted take an oath to the Constitution and the President, but officers don't. Where do you think they stand right now? Because watching this event felt like such a betrayal to American values. I mean, clearly, as you said, we're being groomed for acceptance of martial law in some way, acceptance of military on our streets against. Acceptance of armed soldiers telling us where to go and what to do. Because the goal is for these people to take over everything. It is all written down in Project 2025, which the administration is working through piece by piece. If it comes down to what the generals and the admirals and the people in charge actually do. Because there's no doubt these people have plenty of courage, right? But do they have the inclination, the training, the ability to step out of line like that and have the moral faith, fortitude to do the right thing? What is your thought on that? As someone who knows this culture far better than I ever will, I have.
- [42:37]
Janessa Goldbeck
A lot of faith in the officer corps that the vast majority of them truly do swear their allegiance to the Constitution. But we've never been in a situation before where the President of the United States is the threat to the Constitution in this way. And there are also a lot of people in the officer corps who it will be very challenging for them to refuse orders that they're told are lawful. Now, there is a big. Obviously shooting civilians, very clearly not lawful, very clearly an unlawful order that you have an obligation based on your oath to refuse. But what if the president tells the Ohio National Guard to land in Illinois? A red state governor willingly provides their National Guard and sends them into Chicago against the wishes of the governor, and there's some sort of, like, firefight that ensues because of confusion or whatever. Like, when we start putting people who have, you know, don't necessarily have the appropriate training into these positions, into these highly charged situations. Or a protester throws a bottle and it hits somebody and a round goes off and somebody dies. Like, these escalatory, inflammatory moments. In those moments, like, will it be clear whose side people are on? Like, what is the lawful response? Like, those are the situations that really scare me because it isn't as simple as getting, like, a written, you know, memorandum that says, go into the streets of Chicago and mow down civilians. But when something like that happens, like, what are the rules of engagement for these folks, especially when they're deployed there against the wishes of local leadership? Like, those are the situations that really haunt me. And I just have to hope that people will know in their bones what's right and what's wrong. And if you are in a position where you are raising your weapon against your fellow citizens, we've jumped the shark. That's not right. I do want to come back to one thing you said before we close out, Lee, which is like, will people still vote for Republicans? I think you're right. I think a lot of people who voted in this last election won't vote for the Republican Party again after all of the things that are happening, whether it's the economy or the. These kidnappings or what have you. But I'm worried that Democrats aren't meeting the moment either in terms of really coming out in forceful opposition, like, having a clear, coherent message and. And making sure that people are aware of what it is that Democrats are fighting for in the spaces where they're actually paying attention. You know, it's like, I think Hakeem leader Jeffries did a press conference around the shutdown or a video stream, and there was, like, a dozen people watching. You know, like, there are more people who watch you on a daily basis than tuned in to that by. By. By a lot, by a lot.
- [45:23]
Lee McGowan
There's a lot of people. People who watch me are more than people who read the Washington Post. Like, it is ridiculous how that's right out of Touch. We are with where people are listening. No, I completely agree with you. The Democratic leadership is absolutely failing to meet the moment. There are, however, a lot of Democratic leaders, people who are not leadership, who are meeting the moment. And it. It is sort of beholden on us to, I think, pressure leadership, quite frankly. I think they should step down. I think both of them should step down. I don't think they're meant for this moment. It's, you know, they can be as good as they want to be, but they're. They're operating in a world that we no longer are operating in. And like you said, you know, when it comes down to, do I fire on these people or if the, you know, the Illinois National Guard meets the Kentucky National Guard in the street, like, what happens? Right? Because it is confusing and it is unprecedented and people won't know what to do. And there have been many, many crises over time where someone did something and the reaction was what caused, you know, something terrible to happen. And there are, obviously, we can't pretend there aren't white supremacists and violent, racist, sexist psychopaths in the military, because they're in America, and the military reflects the breakdown of America. I mean, I think there will be some men who are excited by what they heard by Pete Hegseth and by Donald Trump who think the idea of opening fire on liberals or gay people or the radical left they've been taught to think were demons. I mean, Donald Trump put out a thing this week that said that we were satanic, you know, that Democrats were satanic. And if you are a super hyper Christian and your president tells you that these people are satanic, and then you have a gun trained at them, what is the logical result of that? I think there are people who like the ideas of being able to commit war crimes and maybe rape women. Because Pete Hegseth was like, these little accusations shouldn't have to derail your career. You're like, did he just give free rein to attack women in the military? If I was a woman in the military right now, I'd be like, well, it's open season on people like me. A person that's been credibly accused of sexual assault just said, go ahead and do it. It's not gonna ruin your career. But I don't think that can possibly be the majority. My concern is that room that was filled with all those leaders, people who have devoted their career to American values, to the Constitution, that maybe these speeches that we saw weren't even for them, that all the False machismo we saw on display wasn't for the 800 people in the room that know better, but it was directed at the same group that Maggie talks to all the time, are boys and young men. That this was a performance to inspire the underdeveloped brains of our youth, that the generals and the mere presence of these important people in the room gave the two men speaking a validation of their authority. That we really do need to be out here checking on our boys to make sure that they see the opposite.
- [48:21]
Side of that bravado.
- [48:23]
Because, I mean, you're a female soldier, but they basically said, you know, female soldiers can take it or leave it. You know what I mean? Like, we don't need them. We need men. Right? We need men. And it felt to me at the end of the day like they were.
- [48:34]
Trying to recruit terrorists, right?
- [48:37]
People that would be fine, killing their fellow citizens to be part of the in group. And there are clearly a lot of active duty military and veterans who are unconditionally supportive of this president, and I'm sure it's represented in leadership as well. But the whole thing felt like a.
- [48:51]
Tipping point point to me. Did it feel like that to you?
- [48:54]
Janessa Goldbeck
I think that's such a great point about the audience. Like the idea that, yes, these generals were in the room, that these, these folks were listening, but the whole thing, you know, this is a made for TV, made for TikTok presidency. And the images and the perception of this is what strength is. This is what it means to be a man. That has been, you know, Pete Hegseth's whole mantra. That's been the President's whole mantra, strength of through force. And you're exactly right. Their audience are young people, particularly young men, and they're winning on that front in many ways. One, because there isn't a counter narrative that is out there in a way that's both speaking to folks where they're at and bringing them in and in the places that those young minds are and where they're paying attention. And when we seed that ground, when we fail to engage, it doesn't mean we have to meet bullying with bullying, but there has to be a compelling counter narrative that also doesn't water down the message. I think this is such an important point. It's harder for, I think, Democrats or people on the left because we're a big tent with a lot of diverse ideology. And that can be tough to come together to achieve things when we have differences of opinions that are very strong. But there have to be some Unifying beliefs that are universal enough that we can bring people in, but are also compelling enough. Not just, you know, the other guys bad, but this is how we're going to tangibly make your life better. This is the place for you in our society. This is where you can lead and shine. And until we figure that out, and I think there are leaders out there who have and who are communicating that very effectively, but it's not scaled. And in the moment we're in right now, we need to supercharge that counter narrative.
- [50:41]
Lee McGowan
Yeah. We need to make it cooler to be a guy that cares about the world and doesn't need to just shoot up people and dominate women. And then we're not getting that message. That message is absolutely being disseminated across the right wing, and it's resonating. I guess the question ends up, will these people, will these generals and everyone that was in charge bow to this authoritarianism, or will they be faithful to the Constitution? Will they end up saving the American people or shooting the American people? People? And I really hope that they make the right decision when it really comes down to it. And I hope that we as the American people can inspire them to protect us with our own goodness rather than waver when the moment hits.
- [51:30]
Janessa Goldbeck
I think the greatest trap we can fall into. I'm a civilian now, as a veteran no longer in uniform, is to allow Donald Trump to draw a bright line between them and us. The American military is ours, the American people. It is made up of our sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, moms and dads. And they need to know that we understand the position that the President is putting them in and that at the end of the day, he's an old man who won't be here forever, but hopefully America will as a democracy that belongs to all of us, and that they'll make the right choice knowing that we have their back.
- [52:08]
Lee McGowan
Yes. Thank you so much for joining us today, Janessa.
- [52:11]
I really.
- [52:12]
I feel much better talking to you. I really needed, like, 48 hours after that travesty to kind of pull my head together. So thank you so much for joining us and for all the work that you do with both Vote Vets and vet voice. I really appreciate it. It's so essential. And I really, I thank everyone who served with you and who is still serving for their service, and I hope that they remember the Constitution and what it stands for as we move forward.
- [52:36]
Janessa Goldbeck
Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
- [52:39]
Lee McGowan
So that was Janessa Golbeck reminding us that while there have always been people who want to harm Americans. It has never been the American President and his staff before. The question is, will the American military help him do it? Do they see us as the enemy from within or do they see us as their fellow citizens that they're sworn to protect? We are clearly living in dangerous, unprecedented times, but I am so pleased that people like Janessa are out there working with our veterans to support our democracy and our morality. I want to thank Janessa for joining us today and you for caring enough about democracy to be here. Remember, the strongest leaders are the ones you want to follow. Only a weak leader has to posture strength. Until next week, Peachy.
- [53:25]
Janessa Goldbeck
Out.
- [53:27]
Lee McGowan
Before you go, I want to ask you to support my work. Look at the misinformation around the government shutdown, the lack of information about what happened in Chicago. It is independent journalism. The people who aren't owned by billionaires who are the ones really doing the work these days to bring you the truth. So if you are already a premium member of this podcast, thank you. And if you're not, I would like to encourage you to join. If you see worth in what we are doing, please consider becoming a member of Politics Girl Premium by going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. You will get this podcast ad free along with my rants sent directly to your inbox. So even if my work is silenced on social media, you will still get access to the truth. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode, but also@politicsgirl.com and as always, please like and follow and share this podcast so we can grow the audience. Because the more people who have access to real information, the better chance we have to fix what is broken. As always, thank you so much for your time and support. The Politics Girl podcast is written and performed by me, Lee McGowan and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment.
- [54:33]
All rights reserved.