← The PoliticsGirl Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Here's the thing. Voter suppression doesn't have to be the most dramatic thing. It doesn't have to be people dragged away in handcuffs. It doesn't have to be people with guns at polls to be effective. It can be really effective by making voting really inconvenient at scale.
- [00:27]
B
Hello and welcome to the Politics Girl podcast. Hi, I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it. Well, it's the first show of the new year and what a year it's going to be. We barely made it three days into this year and our president was bombing Venezuela and abducting their president and wife. As someone put it so well online. Man, the FIFA Peace Prize used to mean something. But I think if this behavior tells us anything, it's that Trump and his administration are in it for themselves, not the world order, not the American people themselves. And they will do anything and everything to get what they want. This is also an election year. A year I think many of us understand is make it or break it for our country. And for those of us paying attention, I think we understand it's not going to be as easy as just voting these people out because they have no intention of ever giving up power. As today's guest, Mark Elias wrote on New Year's Eve, this was a tough year for democracy. But as we enter 2026, we must do it with hope and optimism. No one, as Marcus said, is coming to save us. We are it. And we don't have the luxury of giving up or becoming cynical or nihilistic. Donald Trump and his enablers want us to feel powerless and overwhelmed. They want us to feel as if they are inevitable and our resistance is futile. Mark wants you to feel the opposite. And I want you to know how he best recommends we do that. If you don't know Mark Elias, he is an American lawyer and the founder of the Elias Law Group, a mission driven firm committed to helping Democrats win citizens vote, progressives make change. He is also the founder of Democracy Docket, the leading progressive source for information analysis and opinion about voting rights, elections and democracy. Mark has continued to protect our rights and votes even as everyone around him seems ready to capitulate. In fact, he was just arguing on our behalf in front of the Supreme Court last month. So without further ado, please welcome my guest, creator of Democracy Docket, founder of the Elias Law Group, and Democratic super lawyer Mark Elias. Mark. Welcome back, Mark.
- [02:23]
A
Thanks for having me.
- [02:24]
B
Well, thanks for coming. I mean, I've had you on my schedule since the end of November. But then things just kept happening, and we were supposed to be talking about, like, what happened in Missouri and how things went for your team on the Supreme Court. And now we have to start this conversation with Venezuela.
- [02:38]
A
So it's a long travel, dude.
- [02:42]
B
What are we doing? Okay, so seriously though, like, what are your thoughts on Venezuela? Because right off the top, how is this military, or what they're calling it, law enforcement operation, how will it affect our elections? Because we all know that Trump would love to cancel elections, and if we're at war, that would kind of give him cover to do that. So what are your thoughts on what we're doing here?
- [03:06]
A
Yeah, I think the first thing to keep in mind is that election denialism is the only consistent ideology within the MAGA movement. You know, Donald Trump does not have a foreign policy. Donald Trump does not have a coherent worldview. Donald Trump puts his own interests above that of everything else. And so there's no question that a large part of what has motivated this is to seize Venezuela's oil. But I don't think we should look beyond the election denialism part of this. I mean, we have seen since, I guess, Friday night, he gave an interview on Fox News in which he talked about how the 2020 election was the product of fraud. He talked in social media posts. Since then, he has reposted suggestions that, that Venezuela was involved in directly involved in undermining or rigging the election in 2020, which of course is not true. And then we saw some members of his administration, some DOJ officials suggest, you know, whether playfully or otherwise, that perhaps Maduro would get a plea deal if he admitted that Venezuela was involved in rigging or otherwise the 2020 election. So we should never underestimate how much he views all of these things in furtherance of that big lie. And that obviously will what he plans to do in 2026 in terms of undermining free and fair elections.
- [04:28]
B
Right? So, I mean, we're basically right back in the Trump reality show. Like, if he can get Maduro to say, actually, yes, I interfered with the 2020 election. You've got your bad guy, he makes a plea, everyone gets their story. And obviously that's all bullshit, but it doesn't matter, right? The point is perception. If the base is only main sense is that the election was stolen from Donald Trump, he was the wronged man. I find it very interesting because everyone knows that Maduro basically stole the election and the opposition in Venezuela. If people don't know the opposition Leader has a 70% approval rating, that the country loves the opposition leader. And you would think if America was trying to help Venezuelans like we are hearing right now, they would immediately put this opposition leader, the person that everyone thought really won the election, into power. But that's not what they're doing. Because at the end of the day, this isn't about Venezuelans. It's about how it serves Trump, how it serves his donors, how it serves the oil companies. Because America's been trying to get back into Venezuela for years. I mean, we tried to do it during the Bush years. We've been trying to get our oil companies back in there. This is all part and parcel of the same thing, don't you think?
- [05:33]
A
Absolutely. And like I said, no one should overlook the oil part of this equation. I mean, Donald Trump, I don't want to say to his credit, but he's not actually hiding that fact like he is actually saying this is about oil. So this is sort of a refreshing honesty to, to, to that as despicable as it is, as absolutely counter international law and frankly, even US Interests as it is. That's, that's what he's saying. But, but, you know, look, I don't think Maduro himself is going to get a plea deal. I do think though, that you're going to see pressure by this administration, by the Trump administration, on the people in Venezuela, whoever it is that emerges as the acceptable to Donald Trump to say that the 2020 election was rigged in some form or fashion. I mean, remember going back to the impeachment of Donald Trump, I think it was the first one was trying to get Zelensky to say something about Joe Biden's son that wasn't true. Like he is, he is all about, you know, trying to leverage his soft and hard power in the world to serve his own domestic political interests.
- [06:37]
B
Right? Absolutely. And then we also know that Stephen Miller has already told him that if we're at war, he can use the alien enemies apparently to ramp up immigration crackdowns even more and maybe send people to Venezuela, kind of 1930s Poland, Germany style, which is terrifying if people are actually paying attention. But listen, I have you on to talk about elections and about election fairness and about election interference and about what they're going to do because we are in an election year, we always are saying this is the most important election ever. But like this probably is since we screwed it up so badly in 2024. Now, listen, most people want to know the same thing, which is, do you think that we are going to have free and Fair elections in November 2026. And if we aren't going to have them, what can we do to counter the steps Republicans are going to take to retain their power, other than just sort of passively waiting for heroes like you to go through the court?
- [07:30]
A
I think you asked the right question. So let me, let me quickly say what the wrong question is, which is are we going to have elections? We're going to have elections. So, so you put it 100% right. The are we going to have free and fair elections? Because, you know, dictators love elections. They just love rigging elections, right? So, so the question for 2026 is, you know, how fair and free they're going to be. And the way I think about this is that there's no on, off, switch. It's not like there's a point at which they are not fair and free and then like you hit a certain point and then they are completely free and fair. Rather, it's a, it's a gradient. Right? And democracy is always a gradient and it is always a work in progress. The, the question is how far back we will slide. And I do think we will slide back. I do think that there will be aspects to the 2026 elections that are going to look worse or less free and fair than they were in 2024 or 2022 or 2020. Pick your year. And that is a historic. I mean, just to be clear, like, you know, we have been on, you know, since the civil rights movement in the nineteen six Democratic, Republican, Republican controlled states try to make voting easier. And starting around 2021, we saw Republican states sort of go the other way. Right. That's when we saw the big voter suppression laws in Georgia and Texas and around the country after Donald Trump's loss in 2020. But we still saw a lot of progress overall. And I think in 2026, what we're going to see is this. Number one, we are going to see the federal government, namely Donald Trump and the Department of Justice and perhaps the military or other federal law enforcement agencies get involved in ways that are not typical or really not consistent with the Constitution. Number two, you're going to see right wing vigilante organizations act with impunity. Right. And number three, you're going to continue to see state actors, you know, Republican legislatures, Republican Party organizations emboldened to do the kinds of things that frankly, you and I have been talking about for the last two, three years. Right? Which is the RNC being a big, you know, voter suppression war machine, Republican state legislators passing new voter suppression laws So I think it's those three things. It's official state power, it's kind of the unofficial, you know, militia type vigilante organizations. And then it is the organized Republican Party.
- [09:56]
B
Right. Okay. So when I was researching this episode, I started doing some, like, notes of what I thought that they might do to counter a free and fair election. So I'm going to go through some of them. You just mentioned three big ones. I'm going to go through them and you tell me if you think that these are plausible, not plausible, or if you should expand on anything, does that work for you?
- [10:15]
A
Let's roll.
- [10:16]
B
Let's roll. Okay, so the Democrats won big in 2025. So it looks like we should technically be on a track for the Democrats to flip at least the House, if not the Senate.
- [10:27]
A
I think that's right.
- [10:28]
B
But it's. I think the thing is, if the Democrats win big in November, say they take the House, maybe even flip the Senate, but the Republicans refuse to swear them in. Right. Like they did with the representative from Arizona in the fall. Is that a possibility?
- [10:43]
A
Okay, so it's a little more complicated than that. The way to think about elections is you have voter registration, you have voting, then you have certification, and the end of the certification ends with, as you say, swearing in. So taking that period of after the votes have been counted and everybody knows what the vote totals are, what are the places where there can be mischief points? The first is, we could watch. We could see the federal government tried to interfere with that certification process at the state level, try to see ballots, try to, you know, do whatever. Number two, we could see Republican state election officials refuse to certify elections. We were prepared for that in 2024. And then the third, the final step is the one that you're talking about, which is, could, you know, Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House, somehow prevent the swearing in of Democrats? The answer in the House is it's very complicated for. For him to try to do that because the entire House is up for reelection at the same time. Okay. So in early January, when they all convene in the Capitol, he's actually not the speaker anymore.
- [11:46]
B
Right?
- [11:47]
A
The clerk runs the show. Remember, we all saw this when they were trying to choose a speaker. One of the first things they have to do is choose a speaker. But until that, they have this clerk running the show and swearing people in and then those people voting. So there are ways that in that lame duck period, Right. That's the period I would focus on before Mike Johnson is no longer the speaker before we get to the swearing in. I think that's probably the most dangerous time.
- [12:11]
B
Right, Got it. Okay. So that makes sense because he's not technically the speaker, so he can't do what he did with the representative from Arizona and just refused to swear her in for however many days he did it because he doesn't necessarily have the power to be doing that. That would be the clerk's job at the time. Okay, so what about. Obviously, we know the Republicans are going to redraw every district line in every state that they can until only Republicans can win House seats. This is kind of their gerrymandering plan on steroids. Right. That's what they're already trying to do throughout this year. And I think we can expect that to only ramp up because Donald Trump is not particularly popular and they know they're about to lose the House. Thoughts on that?
- [12:46]
A
Oh, absolutely. I mean, you're 100% right. I mean, you know, anyone who thinks that the fight for redistricting is over doesn't understand what Donald Trump and the Republicans are doing. I mean, you know, they started with Texas. This because Texas has one of the earliest ballot deadlines. Right. Which basically people by now are either running in Texas or they're. It's too late to run. But states have a rolling period. So Florida, for example, has not even begun the process of its legislature meeting. And Ron DeSantis has told us he's going to engage in further gerrymandering. So. So we are not at the end of this process. Right. We are in the middle of it. So we've seen Texas, we've seen Missouri, we've seen North Carolina all redistrict at the behest of the White House in ways that are grotesque and violate the law, in my opinion. Indiana has said no, at least for now. New Hampshire said no, at least for now. But we know Florida is still in front of us, and that is a big opportunity. But here's the big thing. The Republicans in the south, in the Deep south, where you have had the Voting Rights act, are waiting for the outcome of a very important Supreme Court decision that if it limits or strikes down parts of the Voting Rights act, you could see the Deep south engage in a massive wave of redistricting, and that could be tens or at least more than a dozen seats.
- [14:10]
B
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, I think we could pretty much count on the Supreme Court overturning this last part of the Voting Rights Act. They have been doing it piecemeal, year by year by Year. But I think John Roberts has made it quite clear that he never liked the Voting Rights Act. He want to get rid of the Voting Rights Act. And the last thing that we have that's kind of holding on for dear life is this. You cannot racially gerrymander states. Right. And so if they get rid of that, then you're talking about how the Deep south will be able to be like, well, you know, we just drew every black person out of power, you know, and drawing their little lines, because that's no longer illegal as per the Supreme Court. That's what we're talking about, correct?
- [14:45]
A
Yeah. More precisely, what the Deep south would do is say, look, we didn't draw black people out of their seats, we just drew Democrats out of their seats, you know, and it turned out they were black. But we were engaged in partisan gerrymandering.
- [14:58]
B
Okay, so partisan gerrymandering is allowed, but racial gerrymandering will still be not allowed. Right.
- [15:03]
A
Which is crazy, right? Because like, honestly, like when you talk about the Deep south, the only, the only Democrats you are about talking targeting in that instance are black Democrats. Right.
- [15:14]
B
So.
- [15:15]
A
So it's a distinction without a difference. But you're absolutely right that what's been preventing that is this section 2 of the Voting Rights act, which says basically, we don't care whether you're motivated by race, we don't care if you're motivated by party. You cannot diminish minority voting strength where you have racially polarized voting and it basically means no minority representation. And you are exactly right that John Roberts has been a historic critic of that. It is hard to see the math to get to five votes to uphold Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act. So I agree with you there. Although, you know, you never know. It could be that some of the conservatives, including perhaps the chief, decides there's too many other things right now that they want to do that they're going to leave this for another day. But I agree, based on the headcount and based on hearing the oral arguments, I would expect an unfavorable ruling. How unfavorable? Will have to wait and see.
- [16:06]
B
Okay, Yeah, I think that's pretty fair to say. Now, the Republicans claim that every state election, they can come in and they can claim that state elections are rigged, and then the federal government has to take over the process of state elections for security reasons. Of course, that would not be in the interest of protecting state elections, but in rigging state elections. You were talking about that earlier, that the federal government might start trying to take control of state government elections. That's a real possibility, correct? The New Year means a clean slate. Are you committed to working out this year? Then you're going to want to make sure you rehydrate after your workout. Are you thinking of eating healthier? Then? You might want to carry healthy snacks with you on the go. I have talked about IQ Bars for a long time because they are packed with clean, delicious ingredients to keep you physically and mentally fit, like magnesium and lion's mane. But I haven't talked as much about the IQ mixes. The zero sugar drink mixes that mix with water to hydrate your body with electrolytes, improve your mood and boost your clarity. Most of us are actually walking around completely dehydrated, which is bad for our brains and our body, so finding a way to rehydrate that you actually enjoy is a great new habit. The New year gives us a chance to reset to maximize our brain and body's potential with IQ protein bars, hydration mixes and their mushroom coffees. If you try their Ultimate Sampler Pack, it includes all three nine IQ bars, eight IQ Mix sticks and four IQ Joe Sticks. I like all the Mixtix flavors, but I'm particularly fond of the iced tea and lemonade because I'm a huge Arnold Palmer fan and I love that they've included that flavor in their hydration mixes. But I will say the pina colada is also delicious. Right now IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ Bar products including the Ultimate Sampler Pack plus free shipping to get your 20% off. Text PG to 64,000 text PG to 64,000 that's PG 264000 message and data rates may apply. See Terms for details. If you are refreshing your body this new year, you might also want to refresh your wardrobe. Perhaps you got some new things for the holidays and now you're thinking, oh, if I have this, I might need this to make it work well. Quince has you covered from soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100% silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up to everyday denim. Their wardrobe essentials are crafted to last season through season. As I said last week I spent the holidays in Quince's maxi burgundy silk skirt and the matching cashmere sweater. It was easy to wear. I looked pulled together and the whole thing was possible without breaking the bank. Maybe you think you're going into January thinking you might need a new coat. Then I would recommend you check out Quince's Italian wool coats. They are beautifully tailored, soft to the touch and built for years of wear and not just one season of style. You will see see the quality in the stitching, in the fit, in the fabrics. And everything from Quint is made from premium materials in ethical trusted factories priced far below what other luxury brands charge. I truly love their cashmere. I have a boat neck one I wore all summer and as I said, I've been wearing the burgundy one through the holidays. But people are going on and on recently about the leather jackets. So refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait. Go to quince.com politicsgirl for free shipping on your order. Quarter and 365 days of returns. And for my Canadian friends and family, Quince is now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com politicsgirl to get free shipping and 365 days of returns. Quince.com politicsgirl the federal government might start trying to take control of state government elections. That's a real possibility, correct?
- [19:33]
A
Yeah, I think this is probably the greatest risk. I think like if you just say if you had to, if you had to say, you know, who has to do what bad thing in order for something terrible to happen? Always bet on Donald Trump to do the terrible thing, right? So the federal government under our system of elections has very little power over elections. In fact, when I was a law student, there was a conservative speaker who gave an entire talk about how the Federal Election Commission was a misnomer because in the United States we don't have federal elections, we just have state elections. And conservatives and Republicans used to be very insistent on this point that that the elections clause gives states the prime role in setting the time, place and manner of elections. Now Congress can override that, but really Congress has only seen fit to override it on a handful of things. Like for example, they have said that we have a uniform election day, right? The Tuesday following the first Monday in November. That's a Congress congressional enactment. But otherwise they we have seen fit to leave to the states the ability to set the how we how people vote, how the ballots are cast, how they're counted, when they're counted, who counts them. Right. All of that is a matter of state power. So the truth is that the Trump administration doesn't really have a leg to stand on. But that isn't stopping them from trying. Donald Trump has already issued an executive order trying to take over aspects of the state vote counting. My law firm and I are suing over that and so far we have had success. But look, we're going to see a very aggressive effort by this administration to try to interfere with states administration of elections and vote counting. And I think that when we were to your first question about are we going to have free and fair elections, I think like how much they succeed there and how much they fail there is going to be the playing field for deciding.
- [21:25]
B
Yeah. There was an old Russian saying that had to do with the Ukraine elections back in the day before the color revolutions, before it became a sort of democratic state instead of a satellite state of Russia. And they said it doesn't matter how many people vote, it's who counts the votes. Right. And that's, that's what they're looking at here. If the federal government under Donald Trump takes over state controlled elections.
- [21:44]
A
I feel like many in the legacy media kind of can't wrap their head around this. So they, they, they kind of try to normalize, normalize all around this, but can't, but can't quite acknowledge this. But here's the thing. Donald Trump posted on social media, he has said in his own words that the states act as his agent, his Donald Trump's agent in counting votes. And anyone knows anything about agency means, they have to do what he says. Like that's how he views his role. And so I'm glad you're pointing this out because I don't think that this, this possibility, which I think, like I said, is more than a possibility, is the thing that we really all need to be focused on.
- [22:24]
B
Yeah, it's really, I think it's a real danger if he starts bringing in who his people are. I mean that's the idea, right? That this idea that Trump loyalists will take over the companies who count the votes. Dominion Voting system was purchased this year by a right wing zealot. I understand they've now rebranded it from Dominion to Liberty Vote and those machines will be overseen by Republican aligned election denier guy. But like, look at the Republican election official in Colorado, right? We've heard a lot about her recently. Tina Peters. She was convicted of criminal charges related to her efforts to overturn the 2020 election on Donald Trump's behalf. Donald Trump has gone ahead and pardoned her, which is something he cannot do because she was convicted of a state crime. And now people are outraged that she's not just being let out of jail and Donald Trump is punishing Colorado for not just letting her out of jail. But I'm thinking that they want just multiple Tina Peters across the country doing Their bidding, changing things, counting things. And to be very clear to the audience, Tina Peters is 100% guilty of election tampering. Everything that Democrats are accused of doing, this woman actually did. And then she was convicted by a jury of her peers. She's been sentenced to prison and Donald Trump has decided that she can come out because she's a loyalist.
- [23:35]
A
Yeah. And she was prosecuted by a Republican DA in a fairly conservative jury pool. You know, I mean, I wasn't in the courtroom. I don't know who exactly was on the jury pool. But this was not, this was not like downtown Denver, right?
- [23:46]
B
No, she's 100% guilty.
- [23:48]
A
Yeah. She was convicted by a jury of her peers beyond a reasonable doubt and was sentenced lawfully under the judicial system of Colorado. She's had her appellate rights. She has her appellate rights through the state system. And you're right, Donald Trump wants her out of prison and is willing to pressure the state of Colorado and punish them. Look, we don't know exactly why he vetoed a bill, water bill to help Colorado, but it was literally the first bill that he has vetoed in his entire administration. The first bill that he's vetoed this administration. It was sponsored by Lauren Boebert, and it was unanimously passed out of the Republican House and the Republican Senate, and he vetoed it. And I think the best reading of it is it's either because of the Epstein files, because Lauren Boebert supported the release, or my view is it was because to punish Colorado over Tina Peters. And yes, Donald Trump wants Tina Peters of the world to run elections at the local level. Where he can't get that, he wants election deniers to be in more senior roles. Where he can't get that, he will impose the federal government down. Which is why we're watching right now as Donald Trump's Department of justice has filed 22 lawsuits against Democratic and purple states in order to get access to their most sensitive voter data and voter information. And that's what happens when he can't get his way right through the Tina Peters of the world, through compliant Republicans, then he goes to court. And we all know what happens when he doesn't get his way in court. We watch that movie after 2020 and anyone who thinks that he is more restrained now than he was then hasn't been paying attention.
- [25:26]
B
Absolutely hasn't been paying attention. We also know that he keeps trying to get up to the Supreme Court cuz he knows those people are mostly in his pocket.
- [25:32]
A
Yes, he wants to get to the Supreme Court because he Thinks he has a favorable court. But again, I want to be clear, if the supreme doesn't rule his way, Donald Trump doesn't take that as the final word. Donald Trump didn't take that as a final word in 2020 and he won't take it as a final word in 2026.
- [25:47]
B
Yeah. And what are your thoughts on the machines? Because a lot of people are really upset that Dominion was sold. And I, I keep thinking back to Senator Lindsey Graham saying years ago he was like, if we don't use the machines, Republicans will never win again. And I thought at the time that was such a weird statement to make. Like he was so against mail in voting, he was so against paper ballots. They use the ESNS machines in South Carolina. But the whole thing seemed very suspect to me. And now you have Dominion being owned by an election denier. So what do you think about the machines?
- [26:20]
A
You know, here's the thing on the machines, we have a system of such diffuse voting in this country. I never say anything is impossible, but I do want to say that it is very hard as a practical matter for voting machines to be tampered with at wide scale. Obviously they can be tampered with in any given location or maybe even in a precinct. But because the ballot designs are so different, you know, the ballot, the, the ballot you vote on in one town in your county may be different than the ballot in another town and certainly from one county to another and one state to another that, you know, I have never seen sufficient evidence of widespread vote changing. I've seen it, you know, where you have a miscalibrated machine or some problem with ballot design. So I'm right now still not in, I'm not sold on the machine stuff.
- [27:10]
B
Yeah, I think a lot of people got sold in the machine stuff. A, because Donald Trump made that speech right after the election about how Elon really understood the machines. And thanks to Elon for understanding the machines and people like Tina Peters letting people in to tamper with the machines. Right. Like, right.
- [27:25]
A
And I think we need to distinguish between, I think we need to distinguish between those two, though. Like I said, I'm not saying that on a one off basis. Like in a particular county. I think she was, I can't remember if it was Mesa county, but she was in a county where she was administering elections. That's different than what, for example, I heard people say about the Elon Musk speech, which, by the way, I agree was weird and bizarre and raised eyebrows. But the truth is that you have all of these Machines programmed by different people in different places. And then they're not usually, they're not typically connected to the Internet. And there are papers, paper ballots, and counties and states do audits of the paper ballots in many places. There are recounts, you know, in places like, I never close my mind to anything, but I'm not sold on it. I mean, the big push that people had after the 2024 election was about what people thought were suspicious on. People on the left thought were suspicious vote totals. In Rockland County, New York, Donald Trump got nearly every vote in a handful of precincts. And Senator, Senator Gillibrand, the New York senator who's on the ballot, did relatively well. I happen to be from Rockland County, New York, and I'm familiar with those precincts. Those are heavily ultra orthodox precincts that do a lot of block voting. So it's not actually a surprise. And I think that's why that particular concern seems to have been sort of faded away. So, again, I'm not saying never, but I'm not sold on it.
- [28:47]
B
Okay, that's really interesting. And I think it is fair, as you said earlier, as my last thought on what might happen, I think it's fair to assume that Trump and the Republicans will send ICE into certain states and cities to act as sort of a personal army to intimidate people, to scare them, to arrest people if they're illegal or not, but to maybe even have the threat of arresting people if you look like you might be an immigrant that's here, maybe even to act as election officials. I think we have to imagine that there will be some sort of armed presence in certain places.
- [29:19]
A
Yeah, I think it's actually worse than what you just said. I mean, first of all, I'm not sure it'll only be ice, you know, like, you know, you're, you're, you're positing that it's what, you know, that it's just ice. I mean, yeah, we, we saw the National Guard recently. We saw the National Guard recently deployed in cities. And right now, Donald Trump has taken a step back after he lost in the Supreme Court. But, but I, but you know that the administration is making all kinds of noises about the Insurrection act and which would let him put regular military in the cities. At least he believes it allows him to do that. We have to see what the courts say. So I'm not sure it's only going to be ice, number one. Number two, I actually think we, we sometimes suffer from a lack of imagination of what federal law enforcement could do. I Don't think it's just targeting people who look foreign. Like, you know, that's terrible, don't get me wrong, but I don't think it's just that, you know, I think that, that if you, for example, who do you know who do not present as foreign looking, but if you live in a precinct where you have large numbers of Democrats, what's to stop federal law enforcement from just blocking the streets that make it impossible you to drive to the polls? Yeah, I mean, they don't even, they don't have to go to the polls and arrest me. They could just like, you know, shut down the intersections. I mean, you know, I mean, you know, California traffic, traffic's pretty tough. You know, just imagine if there are two hour delays to even get near, you know, within a mile radius of where your local polling place is. Here's the thing. Voter suppression doesn't have to be the most dramatic thing. It doesn't have to be people dragged away in handcuffs. It doesn't have to be people with guns at polls to be effective. It can be really effective by making voting really inconvenient at scale. And the people they can inconvenience to don't have to just be the people that ICE is targeting. You know, they could go to overwhelmingly black precincts which would not have a high proportion of not us born citizens, and they could still do tactics that would be highly inconvenient. You know, I oftentimes talk to groups of academics or lawyers or wealthy individuals who say that to me, you know, how much does this voter suppression really matter? And I always say to them, you know, how long would you wait in line to vote? You know, I mean, you guys act like voter suppression by, by creating long wait times isn't real. You know, would you wait two hours in line to vote or would you just walk away? Right. And like, if you couldn't get a parking spot within a mile of your polling place, would you really park and then walk a mile? Or would you just say, screw it, I'm not going to vote today. And so we have to have the kind of imagination that they have about voter suppression. It doesn't have to just target immigrants. It doesn't have to just target, you know, people that ICE would normally go after. It could be all kinds of things. And that's before you get lead to the question of, you know, what if they decide that there's voter fraud and they need to take control of the ballots? And they will. You want the FBI to count them? Forget about ice. What if the FBI gets involved or Pam Bondi gets involved and issues a bunch of finds, the Lindsey Halligan's of the world to issue grand jury subpoenas for all the ballots. Right. We need to widen the aperture of what it is that we think this administration is capable of. And that's why if I sound less worried about certain things or more doubtful about other things, I keep coming back to what this administration will do. Because, because Donald Trump has shown himself without any floor to how low he will go, like there is nothing, there is nothing he won't do, nothing he won't say that will violate every law and every norm. And that's what we have to be prepared for.
- [33:05]
B
Yeah, you're talking about this imagination that we have to have for this, that like we could have a giant blue tsunami and every single one of our ballots could end up being gathered up by the FBI and then thrown into court like they all didn't exist. And that's very hard for people to get their heads around. It's also hard to keep people's hope up when that is a possibility. I look at things like, even with the gerrymandering you were talking about California, they could block my street so I can't get to the polling place. But in California, most of us vote by mail. Right, but the USPS just changed their rules. Right. So that now you don't have to postmark the ballot on the day it was mailed, but the day it was processed, which allows the post office to potentially discount tons of votes that could have been done on election day, but they don't process them for three days later. So then they say, oh, I'm sorry, those don't count anymore. And this is what they're trying to do. They're going to take every single possible route they can to make our votes not count so they stay in power. This is the, the same stuff we see in other countries around the world, in the Russias and the Hungaries and the Belaruses, you know, where the leader in charge has elections but they can't really lose.
- [34:12]
A
You're exactly right about the postal service. That is, that is again, one of these underappreciated things, because it's not that like, you know, talking about postal postmarking and sorting facilities does not excite the public the way that some other topics do. But absolutely, I mean, you're, you're, you're, I saw online, former election officials who are experts in this say that they're going to recommend to people to mail their ballot two Weeks in advance of election day, two weeks. I mean they are saying, I mean it's not, we're not just talking about like the postmark being a day late. We're not talking about like the mail taking three days instead of two days or four days instead of three days. I mean it's like you said, it's weapon, you know, it is. Every one of these things adds up, right? It's not like one tactic, it's all of these things.
- [34:58]
B
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- [41:33]
A
Every one of these things adds up, right? It's not like one tactic, it's all of these things.
- [41:38]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's every single tactic. I mean, that's the thing. I just. Here's the hypothetical I wanted to ask you. Are the Republicans being slightly arrogant in thinking that if they just gerrymander and change whose vote counts and change what machines do, that they are going to win with the assumption that Republicans and their base will continue to vote for them? If I gerrymander all of this state so only Republicans can win, will they still get the Republican votes? Because the Republicans are doing a terrible job at governing right now. Everything is quantifiably worse. The Epstein thing is a stain. They have big name defectors like Marjorie Taylor Greene. Mitt Romney is joining with Mike Pence and the Heritage foundation. People who feel it's gone all too far. What does this administration think in that they're still going to get everyone's vote for Republicans based on everyone losing their health care? Everyone lose. Like, is it possible that they're just overthinking that they're going to still keep everyone's vote?
- [42:45]
A
Yes, it is very possible. But if you're them, what other choice do you have, right? I mean, like you're, if you're Donald Trump, the only way you know how to win is by trying to cheat. Right? Like you've been like his entire business career, his entire personal career. Like, like that's just like. That's right. So if you're, now, if you're not Donald Trump, let's say you work in his administration or you're a Republican in Congress, like what? Everything you just said is baked in the cake. I mean, the Epstein files is not just a stain on Donald Trump, it is a moral stain on him, but it is a political calamity. I mean, I mean, Lee, I mean, we have not seen a bigger political mismanaged issue in recent American politics than the Epstein files. We are in January of 2026 and we are still talking about the Epstein files and he is still screwing it up. Like, it is, as you say, it has become a bipartisan issue. I mean, the only thing that's happened in the last year about the Epstein files is he has alienated his own base. He has engaged Democrats and it has become a front page issue in the national press rather than in the secondary press. So like, like it's a total calamity for him. You mentioned health care. They have no plan on health care. You mentioned, look what, you know, what they're doing with foreign policy. This is not going to be popular. Like whatever else Donald Trump thinks his little gambit in Venezuela and elsewhere will be, it's not going to be a winner among the voters of the United States. So. So if you're a Republican in Congress, if you're Mike Johnson, like, you're stuck with all that. So making it harder for you to vote and easier for him to cheat is kind of all he has left. So might it not work? Might the gerrymandering not be enough? Yes, yes, it might not be enough. It may not work. But they're doubling and tripling down on it because it is the tool that they have available to them and it is a tool that Donald Trump likes.
- [44:38]
B
Yeah, well, I think it's pretty clear to everyone, including the Republicans, that they can't win with their elections, that they won't be keeping the majority after the midterms if they don't do something about this.
- [44:49]
A
Look at the results of the 2012 elections.
- [44:53]
B
Yeah. I mean, they don't have the numbers and they certainly don't have the candidate for 28. Right. So instead they are preparing for some sort of hostile takeover. They're not trying to win votes or win over voters. I mean, even their base is fracturing right now. We can see that. So it's almost like their entire, as you're saying, their entire gambit is, is now dependent on election interference. And that's exactly right over election infrastructure. And it kind of comes down. I mean, you've pointed out that the outcome of this GOP Trump backed gerrymandering scheme and this attempt to get like voter from all these other places is now in the hands of federal judges. And more than half of those judges have been appointed by Trump himself. God knows how that fricking happened. And the rulings that come out of these courts are going to determine House control for years, if not forever. So what do we do? American public, us floating around here going like, I was told to vote. You know what I mean? Like, what do we do when we know the entire system in many ways is corrupted? What can we do? Because you have written very clearly last year, we are on our own that the mainstream Media has let us down, the institutions have let us down, our politicians have let us down. So what do we do if we have to save ourselves?
- [46:03]
A
Yeah, I want to say three things about that. Number one, registering to vote in voting is still the most important thing, right? Because, like, you can't do anything else unless people register to vote and turn out. And so make a plan to vote. Make double check your registration, make sure it has not been canceled, make sure it's not been challenged, make sure that you know where your polling place is, how you, if you want to vote by mail, what the deadlines are. You know, if you can use a Dropbox, use a Dropbox. So, like, being an educated voter and being a committed voter is always going to be the single most important thing. The second thing, though, is that we need to be attentive to what is being done to the voting process. You know, Donald Trump is very good at diverting our attention to things that he wants us to pay attention to, but not to the things that we need to pay attention to. So, you know, you mentioned the US Postal Service thing, and I kind of interrupted you and jumped in before you moved on, because honestly, that part. Yeah, right. Because, like, that's the kind of thing that, like, with all of the rest of the news going on, people could just, like, look past that, and we cannot look past the small changes that are being made. The, the things that may look more routine that are going to make it harder for people to vote. And so, you know, we're going to see a lot of that in the days and weeks and months to come. And then the last thing I want to say to everyone who living in a blue state, your governors and legislatures could make voting easier. Like, there are things you could do in California to make voting better. I know that the states like California and Oregon and Washington, they think they have the greatest voting systems and they have very good voting systems. Voting systems. It doesn't mean they can't be improved. Every state can improve their voting system, and every state can take steps to make it harder for Donald Trump to do the kinds of things we've been talking about. And so, you know, I published a piece on democracy Doc. It's seven things every blue state could do to protect their voters for midterms. And like, we ought to be putting pressure, yes, we need to call our Republican members of Congress and our Republican legislators, but we also need to be calling our Democratic governors and our Democratic legislators and our Democratic members of Congress and tell them that prioritizing voting rights is A priority for us in every state, in every community, not just in red states and red communities.
- [48:21]
B
Yeah, no, absolutely. I keep saying, like, listen, if you ban mail in voting and you prohibit early in person voting, if you get rid of certain voting machines and impose this kind of strict national voter ID laws and voter registration laws that Donald Trump wants to do and signed an executive order to do, but really has no power to do, I need people to understand that it doesn't matter if you're Republican and you think these changes are good, because your team will win. If the government is actively blocking people from being able to vote, from having their votes counted, from having elected representatives be able to take their seats, if the federal government is telling states to redraw their maps, or having loyalists control the voting machines or state elections, if they are sending armed masks men into your streets to intimidate voters, it doesn't serve you. It might serve your team, if that's what you see it as. But it disrespects and disenfranchises the voter. And you are a voter, because once these people have total control, they won't need you anymore. And your needs are also going to be silenced. I think about the federal bailout that the farmers just received because Trump's tariffs destroyed their businesses. And they got those bailouts because the party still needs their support, Right? But once the system is fully rigged, once they cannot lose the way, say, Putin cannot lose in Russia, do you think those farmers are getting bailouts? Or is it more likely that the billionaire friends of the president are just going to swoop in and buy all those family farms for pennies on the dollar? People need to really think bigger about what's happening when we start disenfranchising voters. Even if you think your team is winning because you are ultimately only disenfranchising.
- [50:00]
A
Yourself, that's a hundred percent correct. And look, I think that in some ways, Lee, the story of the health care is that story, right? I mean, you know, Republicans have screwed over their own voters with Medicaid cuts and now with the raising of health care premiums. I mean, you know. Yes. Are those things going to hurt blue states and blue counties? Sure. But they're gonna have a lot more bite in a lot of really, really red areas. And for those voters, they've been duped and they've been lied to, and they were sold a bill of goods. And they were sold a bill of goods by a guy who said that he was going to make their lives better and he was going to improve their communities. And now that they don't need them, they've done exactly what you just said. And so, yes, next it will be the farmers, and then it will be another group, and then it'll be another group. And at each stage, Donald Trump goes laughing because he and his cronies get richer and richer and they do more things to help themselves and their allies. And the losers, the losers in all of this are, as you say, all of the American public, including the American public that voted for them, who need essential services from the government.
- [51:14]
B
Yeah. I mean, this is a man who called our own veterans suckers and losers. I think he sees us as suckers and losers. This is the American first peace president who just invaded Venezuela on behalf of the oil companies. This has nothing to do with us. This has nothing to do with us.
- [51:31]
A
And is threatening to invade. A NATO ally in Greenland is threatening to invade Cuba, but also Mexico, our neighbor to the south, with whom we have had warm relationships. He started his administration by picking a fight with Canada, which literally is the largest trading partner. And also so much of our success as a country has been because we have the largest peaceful, unguarded border in the world. Right. Because of such warm relationship with Canada. I mean, this is a guy who is picking fights for the sake of his own ego and for his own cronies and the damage he is doing, not just to us abroad, which I realize many of your viewers care about, I care about, but also what he is going to. To do in raising prices, in undermining American credibility that is going to redound to the detriment of all Americans, including the Americans that voted for him.
- [52:28]
B
Yeah. I mean, look at our tourist industry, how much we've lost already with people not coming here, especially from Canada. This was the number one tourist destination.
- [52:36]
A
I talked to people in Maine and I talked to people in Florida, and it's funny because I guess there's an intuitive sense that intuitively it makes some sense that Maine would suffer. I never. I didn't realize that Florida was like a destination for Canadians, but apparently it is. I talked to these small. I talked to these small business owners in Florida, and they're talking about the devastation that it's having to their. To their. Their communities. And Donald Trump did that. Right? Joe Biden didn't do that. Barack Obama didn't do that. Donald Trump did that. And it was totally unnecessary. It was for no reason other than that was what was in his head.
- [53:15]
B
Yeah. No, the 51st state thing just wrecked tourism from Florida to Vegas to Maine. It's a disaster. I want to thank you so much for joining us today, Marc. In a country where so many people have failed us, you have not. And I think we just have to keep seeking leaders like you who will continue to fight for us and not just sacrifice our country because it seems easier, because I want to put my head in the sand or because I want to pretend everything is okay. At the end of the day we have to start thinking about our own short term power and think about the world and the country's long term success. And I really just want to thank you so much for being relentless. It's inspiring and we need inspiration right now. And please tell people how they can follow your work because Democracy Docket is one of my favorite substacks and I want people to know about it.
- [54:00]
A
Yeah. So go to democracy.goet.com and you can see the entire website's free. Everything on it's free to everybody, no cost. You can sign up for a free subscription. You'll get daily and weekly newsletters keeping you up to date on everything happening to democracy elections and voting in court. Or if you want to become a premium member, you'll get additional premium content. You could also check out the Democracy Docket podcast and also its YouTube channel.
- [54:24]
B
Yeah, I mean, you guys, if you're not subscribed to this, you must subscribe. This is really where the some of the best information is right now. And Mark and his team are doing such incredible work. Now listen, before you go, if you could leave people with one thing at the top of this important certain year, what would it be?
- [54:39]
A
That as you said, this is going to be the most important midterm elections of our lives. Donald Trump wants unbridled power. And the biggest check on Donald Trump having unbridled power is in your hands and it is the midterm elections. And I don't want to hear from you about how much you don't like this Democrat or you don't like that Democrat. At the end of the day, we are in a two party system and either you're going to put the hands in the power of the of Mike Johnson and John Thune or you're going to empower Democrats to be a check. So please make sure you're registered to vote. Make sure you vote, make sure you are paying attention to what is happening in your community and also nationally around elections. And make sure you are following Lee's YouTube channel. So hit the subscribe button now. Hit the bell to make sure you are. You are updated whenever she posts New content. Content.
- [55:30]
B
Love Mark. He's giving me pitches. I'm loving it. Thank you so much for coming today. I so appreciate you and you guys. The work starts today. January not leading up to November today. So that was Mark Elias reminding us that this year is the last check. We have to stop Donald Trump from having the unbridled power he wants and will stop at nothing to get. As Mark says, if we can count on anything, it's that Donald Trump will do whatever it takes to look out for himself. We need to widen the aperture of what's possible as far as voter suppression, that it doesn't always have to be the most dramatic thing to be the most effective. What we need to do now is be educated and committed voters. We need to insist our representatives, Democrat and Republican, prioritize our voting rights. We need to register to vote, double check our registration. We need to turn out to vote and get our people to turn out to vote. And we need to follow up to ensure our votes are counted. This November is our last chance to hold this president and his party accountable for the damage he is doing to all of us. So we have to work every day until then to make sure we are ready for that moment. I want to thank Mark for joining us and you for caring enough about democracy to be here. I am so grateful to all of you. Until next week. PG out. Before you go, I don't know if you've noticed, but left wing and progressive creators like myself who share the truth and facts online are being drowned out by right wing propaganda and lies. The mainstream media is barely hanging on and it's becoming harder and harder to find anything that isn't billionaire backed propaganda at this point. So if you respect what I am trying to do here, if you learn something from my podcasts and rants, if you would like to get this podcast ad free delivered directly to your inbox along with the kitchen rants, then please consider becoming a member of Politics Girl Premium by going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. If you are already a premium member of this podcast, thank you for your support. And if you're not a member, please consider becoming a patron of my work. If you want real knowledge in a world of lies, it's essential to support those of us out here still trying to bring it to you. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode but also@politicsgirl.com and as always, please like and share these podcasts so we can grow our audience. Because the more people who have access to this kind of information the better. As always, thank you so much for your time and support. The Politics Girl podcast is written and performed by me, Lee McGowan, and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.