You Call Yourself a Christian?! A conversation with John Fugelsang

Summary

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The PoliticsGirl Podcast

Episode Title: You Call Yourself a Christian?! A conversation with John Fugelsang
Host: Leigh McGowan (PoliticsGirl)
Guest: John Fugelsang (Comedian, Writer, Broadcaster, Author of "Separation of Church and Hate")
Date: December 2, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deeply engaging, often humorous, and rousingly passionate conversation between Leigh McGowan and John Fugelsang. They dive into the misuse of Christianity in American politics, especially by the far right, and discuss Fugelsang’s bestselling book, Separation of Church and Hate. The central theme: reclaiming Christianity from fundamentalists and fascists who have weaponized religion for power, and returning to the actual teachings of Jesus—compassion, humility, service, and love.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Hijacking of American Christianity

• Main point: The intention of both the U.S. Constitution (separation of church and state) and Jesus’s original teachings have been distorted by political operatives and fundamentalists who use faith for personal power.
• Fugelsang’s Perspective:
  • Christianity in America has strayed far from the teachings of Jesus, who prioritized the marginalized (Matthew 25: feed the poor, care for sick, welcome the stranger, kindness to the imprisoned).
  • Fundamentalists have fixated on social issues (e.g., abortion, LGBTQ rights) never mentioned by Jesus, while ignoring his core commandments.
  • “If you’re going to say you follow Jesus and that’s why you get to impose your will, your policies — again, abortion, cruelty to gay people, none of it comes from Jesus.” (John Fugelsang, [00:00])
• Memorable Analogy:
  • “If I’m in a Rolling Stones cover band and I advertise that I’m a Rolling Stones cover band, but I don’t actually play any songs by the Rolling Stones, I should find a new name for my shitty group.” (John Fugelsang, [00:00], [46:59])

2. Personal Religious Upbringings & Disenchantment

• Both hosts share:
  • They were raised in loving, service-oriented Christian environments—Fugelsang by an ex-nun mother and Franciscan brother father, McGowan in Canadian Anglicanism.
  • The current landscape makes them feel alienated from “American Christianity,” which they see as harsh, exclusionary, and obsessed with dogma over love.
  • “There’s absolutely no part of my upbringing in which I was told to hate other people.” (Leigh McGowan, [18:05])
• On the Largest Religious Group:
  • “I think the largest growing group…is people who were raised religious and now consider themselves spiritual because they’re turned off to all the hypocrisy and cruelty of so much of organized religion.” (John Fugelsang, [05:35])

3. Biblical Arguments on Hot-Button Issues

• Reclaiming the Bible from the Right:
  • Fugelsang urges listeners to challenge Christian nationalists on their own terms—asking “Where in the Gospels did Jesus talk about this?” on topics like abortion and LGBTQ rights.
  • “At no point in the Bible does Jesus say men should be allowed to force citizens to be pregnant against their will...I’m not saying Jesus is pro-abortion...I’m saying they’ve prioritized something that’s not in the Bible.” (John Fugelsang, [10:52])
• Abortion:
  • Cites Exodus 21 and Numbers 5 to argue the Bible does not prohibit abortion.
• Immigration:
  • “The God of the Hebrew scriptures commands us to welcome the stranger and commands us to treat the alien as we treat our own.” (John Fugelsang, [12:52])
  • Challenges the hypocrisy of ignoring Jesus’s direct teachings about welcoming outsiders.

4. The Fundamentalist Threat & The Mountain Theory

• Fundamentalist Danger:
  • It's not religion, but fanaticism and extremism that corrupt, harm, and oppress.
  • “The problem’s not religion, it’s the fundamentalists.” (John Fugelsang, [21:32])
  • “The more to the right your religion is, the more women are second-class citizens…the more you think violence is okay if my side does it…” (John Fugelsang, [20:30])
• “Mountain Theory” (McGowan at [22:30]):
  • Most religions are different paths up the same mountain—compassion, love, and kindness at the pinnacle.
  • Extremists of any tradition are those who seek to be “on top”, seeking power for themselves.

5. Nazification and Authoritarianism in American Christianity

• Media Call-Outs:
  • Recent Christianity Today piece warns against conflating Christianity with Nazism—“the cross cannot yield to the swastika”.
  • McGowan points out troubling events: Nazi sympathizers in conservative circles, Young Republicans’ racist and antisemitic messages, and Trump's private dinner with Nick Fuentes and Kanye West.
• Historical Parallels:
  • “Authoritarian regimes dress themselves up in religious language. Hitler did it…It’s the opposite of what Jesus commands.” (John Fugelsang, [25:11])
  • Demagogues always need marginalized scapegoats to rally the majority.

6. Resistance Throughout Christian History

• From St. Francis to MLK:
  • Fugelsang traces history of Christian resistance to Christian authoritarianism.
  • “Even while Christianity justified atrocities like slavery and conquests, activists from within resisted: Dorothy Day, Quakers, Frederick Douglass, Dr. King…” (John Fugelsang, [26:10])

7. The Paul Problem and Gender

• Paul vs. Jesus:
  • Much of what is weaponized against women in modern Christianity comes from Paul, not Jesus.
  • Jesus broke with social taboos, treated women as equals, made them leaders, and valued education for women.
  • “Any Christian who’s trying to pull that shit on you is not a Christian. They’re a Paulist.” (John Fugelsang, [45:35])

8. How to Engage with Fundamentalists

• Advice:
  • Don’t try to “convert” your right-wing relatives. Use curiosity, humility, and direct scriptural questioning to open conversation, not confrontation.
  • “They have a persecution complex…They think you look down on them…Don’t give them the satisfaction…You’re not trying to win them over. You’re trying to win over everybody else at the Thanksgiving dinner table.” (John Fugelsang, [37:30])
• Practical Tip:
  • “Don’t call them illegals—call them Christian refugees. They’re almost all brown-skinned Christians crossing the border.” (John Fugelsang, [36:06])

9. Hope for Change

• Both note social progress: gay marriage, cannabis legalization, an African-American president, declining homophobia in the young.
• “In 20 years, kids won’t believe how transphobic they were back in the 20s. Kids get used to it. I do believe in many ways we are wired to get kinder.” (John Fugelsang, [19:32])

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “If your church isn’t telling you to love your enemies, but is telling you who your enemies are, you’re not really in a church.”
  — John Fugelsang [25:45]

• “Some of the best Christians are the atheists, right? And the most godless heathens are the loud Christians.”
  — John Fugelsang [48:02]

• “There’s no hate like Christian love.”
  — Leigh McGowan [08:43]

• “We’re not against religion. We’re against bigots hijacking religion for hate and power.” (Paraphrased throughout the episode)

• On Media/Cultural Responsibility:
  “The media is never going to ask these frauds who don’t follow Jesus about the actual teachings of Jesus. And the Democratic Party is going to be way too timid.”
  — John Fugelsang [09:25]

• “They want power; they use the issue for it…The fact is, their real religion is pretending they're better than you…If you think you're better than somebody else because you follow Jesus, you don't actually follow Jesus.”
  — John Fugelsang [13:22]

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• 00:00 – 03:47: Opening remarks; Fugelsang’s Rolling Stones cover band analogy; context for the discussion
• 03:47 – 07:36: Fugelsang’s family background; what he was taught about the real values of Christianity
• 09:25 – 14:01: Media and political cowardice on abortion; biblical analysis; the real motives of the religious right
• 17:24 – 22:30: How fundamentalists are the problem, not religion itself; what changes look like over generations
• 22:30 – 25:11: The Mountain Theory; cross vs. swastika; America’s religious crisis
• 25:11 – 29:05: Authoritarianism, the Nazis, the legacy of Rome, and Christian resistance through history
• 36:06 – 38:32: The Paul problem; how debates over women’s status in church come from post-Jesus dogma
• 39:32 – 46:10: Gender politics and biblical context; how Jesus treated women
• 46:29 – 48:52: Book’s final message—restore Christianity to its roots; all are welcome in the resistance to hate

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Tone & Style

• Generously laced with humor (“way more dick jokes in this book than in most theology treatises,” [18:48]), sharp wit, and righteous indignation.
• Both McGowan and Fugelsang balance deep expertise with approachability and empathy: willing to challenge listeners to action but refusing to demonize the faithful.

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Summary Takeaways

• The crisis in American Christianity is not about belief in God, but about the hijacking of faith to justify politics of cruelty and domination.
• The teachings and spirit of Jesus are radically at odds with the policies and rhetoric of America's Christian right.
• Reclaiming Christian language and scripture from fundamentalists is an act of both justice and patriotism—available even to non-believers.
• “Progress” often means speaking up, asking uncomfortable questions, and modeling kindness and humility—just as Jesus did.
• "Separation of Church and Hate" is both a funny and fearless resource for anyone tired of religion being abused for hate, and for empowering ourselves in political and cultural conversations.

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For Further Engagement

• John Fugelsang’s Book:
  Separation of Church and Hate: A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock Fleecing Frauds
  (See [49:22] for where to buy; available as audiobook and at johnfugelsang.com)

• Fugelsang’s Podcast: Tell Me Everything, SiriusXM Progress Channel 127, 9pm–midnight ET

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If you’re dismayed by religion on America’s right, or feel dislocated in your own faith, this episode is a compelling, funny, and ultimately hopeful roadmap back to compassion, community, and courage.

Transcript

[John Fugelsang]

Why is it so hard to view the Bible as parable and metaphor? There's a lot of truth in the Bible. Not necessarily a lot of facts we can prove, but a lot of truth. And if you're going to say you follow Jesus and that's why you get to impose your will, your policies again, abortion, cruelty to gay people, none of it comes from Jesus. So I like to say if I'm in a Rolling Stones cover band and I advertise that I'm a Rolling Stones cover band, but I don't actually play any songs by the Rolling Stones, I should find a new name for my shitty group.

[Lee McGowan]

Hello and welcome to the Politics Girl podcast. I'm your host, Lee McGowan. Let's get into it. So the media outlet Christianity Today recently put out a piece that said the church better start taking Nazification seriously. It was kind of a breakthrough to have an evangelical empire call out the church for not drawing a hard enough line from Nazism. The key argument being that the Bible cannot sit alongside Mein Kampf, that the cross cannot yield to the swastika, and that Christians need to ask themselves if they want Jesus or Hitler because they can't have both. Now, this country is clearly filled with voters of faith. So how did we get so off track? And what is the disconnect between Christianity and American Christianity? So today I'm having a conversation with comedian, writer, and all around good guy John Fugelsang, who just wrote an incredible bestselling book about this very topic called the Separation of Church and Hate. The book has been called a rallying cry of compassion and clarity for anyone who is sick of religion being used in bad faith. John calls it a sane person's guide to taking back the Bible from fundamentalists, fascists, and flock fleecing frauds. But you don't need to hear from me when we can talk directly to the man who wrote it. So without further ado, please welcome my guest, comedian, broadcaster and bestselling author, John Fugelsang. Welcome to the show, John.

[John Fugelsang]

Thank you for that introduction, Lee. What a pleasure to be here and drag your whole show down to my level. It's an honor. Thank you.

[Lee McGowan]

Oh, my gosh. Are you kidding me? I'm actually thrilled you're here. I've wanted you to come on for forever. I've been on your show tell Me Everything on Sirius xm, but I've never been able to return the favor. So I'm really, really glad you came.

[John Fugelsang]

Thank you so much. I love what you guys do. I mean, we were talking about this backstage at the DNC in Chicago. That was what was like about 70 years ago. We had conversation and I was saying how much I couldn't wait to come on your show when my book finally came out. So thanks for having me.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah. Back when we were young and fresh and had hope. Remember those days?

[John Fugelsang]

I have more hope now than I've had in a very, very long time. I'm not a. I'm not an optimist, but I am a recovering cynic. And honestly, I gotta remind everybody, as hard as it's gonna be and as many people as they're gonna hurt, don't forget to take time in the next year to stop and smell the train wreck, Believe me.

[Lee McGowan]

Okay, listen, we're moving on to your kick ass book, all right? You've written this book, which the conceit is basically that for 200 years, the United States Constitution gave Americans the right to a society where the church and state existed independent of each other. But American Christianity has been hijacked by these groups on the far right and politicians who use religion to kind of dictate their very specific and narrow view of how society should. Should be and who it should work for. So you talk about the extremists who are weaponizing a religion that is basically a religion of love for power. And you could argue that these people have actually never been on the side of Christ's teaching. They've just used Christ as sort of like a battering ram to get what they want. So how do we fight back against people that are working in such bad faith? And why did you write the book? To kind of address this.

[John Fugelsang]

Wow, what a great setup. Thank you, Lee. Well, I come from an abnormally Catholic background. My mom is an ex nun. My father was a Franciscan brother.

[Lee McGowan]

I mean, literally, we need to know that. Meet cute. How did that happen?

[John Fugelsang]

Well, my mother came from the segregated south and she wanted to get very far away, and she entered the convent right out of high school. They put her through nursing school and eventually sent her off to work with lepers in the jungles of Malawi, Africa. My dad grew up in Brooklyn and he was a Franciscan brother. He taught history to Catholic boys at St. Francis Prep and he wore the Jedi robes. And my mother was briefly stationed before Africa at Holy Family Hospital in Brooklyn. So my father, the brother, met my mother, the sister, when he was a patient, fell madly in love, knew he could never ever admit he was madly in love. Like the Jedi, he had sworn to never know love. So he became her best friend and pen Pal all the. That she was in Africa giving her all the news about the civil rights movement and Vietnam, stuff her southern father didn't really care about too much, if you know what I mean. And eventually after about 10 years, it's a very long story, but he got her to leave the convent and go on a date. They were married two months later and they tried to raise us to be progressive, free thinking Catholics. My dad idolized Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Dorothy Day. That was the holy trinity in our house. I was raised to think that Christianity was about the stuff Jesus talked about. Helping the less fortunate, prioritizing the marginalized, servant leadership, humility, washing the feet of your own followers, going to the margins to help the less fortunate. And of course the more direct stuff Jesus commands. Like Matthew 25 when he says individuals and nations are going to be judged heaven or hell by four criteria. How they care for the poor, care for the sick, welcome the stranger and are kind to those in prison. You know the values of Jesus. And so millions of people, Lee, I think grew up in a Christianity where they thought that's what the religion was about. This anti death penalty guy hanging out in the poor neighborhoods of Galilee warning us about the people who pray in public to be seen opposing the death penalty even though it was legal, overturning so many of the conservative laws of his own religion. Because love's more important than dogma, the whole message of Jesus. And yet for the past 45 years, it seems like this whole movement's been hijacked and they did it based on abortion. They got for two generations now, since 1980, they found a way, post segregation, post Nixon crashing and burning, they found a way to get the followers of Jesus to vote against everything Jesus ever talked about. By talking about abortion, by talking, which Jesus never talked about, that and some homophobia. And you've had at least two generations of Christians raised to prioritize stuff Jesus never mentioned while actively voting and legislating against his direct commandments and these days calling them woke. So I got tired of seeing my parents religion used as a cloaking device for meanness and cruelty. They say the largest growing religious group in this country are Mormons. Some say it's Islam or none of the aboves. But I think the largest growing group, Lee, is people who were raised religious and now consider themselves spiritual because they're turned off to all the hypocrisy and cruelty of so much of organized religion. But there's always the true Jesus followers. And through the entire history of Christianity and we can Talk about it. From the time Rome took over and authoritarian Christianity began doing the exact opposite of what Jesus commands for Jesus, there's always been actual Jesus followers who have resisted authoritarian Christianity every step of the way. And those are the ones we admire.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah. And those are the ones that are most like Jesus. Jesus was a table flipper himself. He was not into the top down power. I mean, I think that what you're describing is exactly what I feel. I mean, I grew up Christian. I grew up in Canada, so Episcopalian is called Anglican there.

[John Fugelsang]

Right.

[Lee McGowan]

But I feel increasingly removed from my faith these days. I still believe, like you said, in a higher power, in something, be that God, be it nature, you know, the universe itself. But I have absolutely no relationship to American Christianity. And to be honest, I hate it. It's an anathema to me. I get wiggy when people talk about what Jesus wanted. I'm like, you don't speak for Jesus and you're not behaving like Jesus. And my husband, who really grew up in the church and actually went through like kind of an evangelical kind of kick. He talks about swiping the Jesus credit card, like using it as a get out of jail free card for all your bad behavior. He's like, you know, they just keep swiping the Jesus credit card. And he did those like, you know, praise Jesus tent revival things in college, you know, So I feel like our, our family is actually very religious and yet we are so removed from what we're seeing as our religion. And I think that's what you're talking about. People that go, this isn't me. That's not what I feel. And I think that then you wrote this book that's kind of a takedown in many ways of this deeply pervasive Christian hatred that we're living through now. You know, there's that expression, there's no hate like Christian love. And I feel like that's such a good way to look at it. They're gonna let the poor starve. Right. They're not gonna have us have health insurance, you know, love the stranger. Ew. They're all like, I need them to look and think and talk like me. And they. And that means white, straight, you know, male. It's really problematic for me because I think that all the things that could make us better people, all the sort of be attitudes and the do unto others, that's what's missing now.

[John Fugelsang]

Well, that's why I wrote the book, because I got tired of seeing this. And we have to face the Facts. The media is never gonna ask them tough follow up questions. The media is never going to say to Mike pence, excuse me Mr. Vice President, where exactly does Jesus drive the gay wedding cakes out of the temple? The media is never going to ask these frauds who don't follow Jesus about the actual teachings of Jesus. And the Democratic Party is going to be way too timid. I mean, there's a few. Buttigieg and Talarico are great, but by and large the Democrats have been a pinata. They've been a punching bag on the issue of abortion for 50 years and have never had the guts to point out the Bible's not against abortion. It's not illegal in the Bible. Abortions are legal and free in Israel right now because the religion Jesus was raised in doesn't ban them. God asserts a fetus is property. In Exodus 21, God asserts that a woman's life has more value in his eye. In Exodus 21, God gives rather gruesome abortion tips for unfaithful pregnant wives in Numbers, chapter five. And if you think God cares about innocent children's lives, let me tell you Gentiles about Passover. Jesus is against the death penalty. Abortion existed in Jesus time, but God never saw fit to have Moses or Elijah or Christ or Paul or any of the prophets ever mention it. Now I'm a clown and I just made the case better than any Democrat in the Senate in the last 40 years. Get off these women's back. It's more dangerous to give birth or to be pregnant than it is to have an abortion. That's just the science. So men have no goddamn business telling women what they can do with their body. At no point in the Bible does Jesus say men should be allowed to force citizens to be pregnant against their will. I'm not saying Jesus is pro abortion. I'm not saying Christ is a clinic escort on the weekends. I'm saying they've prioritized something that's not in the Bible. Jesus is against the death penalty. They don't follow Jesus. And this is what we have to start calling them out for. They don't fight for any of the things Christ talked about. They don't fight for religious freedom. They don't fight against Satan or for God. They're only goal is conservative Christian power over society, over government, over culture. If they cared about stopping abortions, they'd have more sex ed in schools and make birth control free. They want power, they use the issue for it. If they wanted to stop border crossings, they'd pass A law and lock up every white person who hires an undocumented immigrant and boom, supply and demand. The giant help wanted sign that our border would finally come down. They don't want to take the help wanted sign down. They need the issue to get power. And I'm so sick of seeing how, again, when it comes to immigration, that's how they're doing it now. That's the most fake Christian moment of this time. We're in. And I'm not saying that we should have completely open borders. We should, of course, have some standards of who comes into the country. It was Reagan who called for amnesty and open borders, not the Democrats. But the fact is, the God of the Hebrew scriptures commands us to welcome the stranger and commands us to treat the alien as we treat our own. And Jesus shows up in Matthew 25 and says individuals and nations are going to be judged by how they welcome the stranger. So you got to know that to be able to say to your uncle at the Thanksgiving table, why should I listen to you and Donald Trump and reject the words of God and Jesus? See, I wrote this book because we don't have to fight these people. We can let them fight God, we can let them fight Jesus. We can say, where exactly in the Bible does Jesus say anything against gay people? And let them argue with the Christ who has the Sermon on the Mount that completely forbids any kind of homophobia or discrimination. The fact is, their real religion is pretending they're better than you. Right? And if you're a follower of Jesus, it's all about humility. That's it. If you think you're better than somebody else because you follow Jesus, you don't actually follow. Jesus is not about total right wing domination of the school board. So this book takes everything that divides us. Women's equality, feminism, abortion rights, LGBTQ rights, healthcare policy, poverty policy, sex hangups, gun policy, antisemitism, hating atheists, hating Muslims, whatever's dividing us. And I try to show how, even if you're an atheist, if you're debating a Christian nationalist or fundamentalist on most of the issues that divide us, Jesus is probably on your side, whether he's real or you believe in him or not. It's time to take the Bible away from these frauds because they only use it to get more power. We have to stop letting them get away with that. And if they're going to claim that their holy book tells them to take these positions, we're allowed to cite that holy book and see if they really mean it.

[Lee McGowan]

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[John Fugelsang]

If they're going to claim that their holy book tells them to take these positions, we're allowed to cite that holy book and see if they really mean it.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, that would be amazing. Evidence based knowledge and common sense would be wonderful if we could live in a world like that. I mean, I think the thing that you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like your book is perspective shifting in many ways because you grew up steeped in religion.

[John Fugelsang]

My parents got me organ lessons, Lee. That's how bad it was. Not piano lessons. Organ lessons.

[Lee McGowan]

No, with the like pipes and you're pulling and you're doing the piano lesson.

[John Fugelsang]

That was the dream one day. Yes, but I knew my pedestal and oh yeah, organ lessons, you know, organ lessons. I was baptized in my parents living room by a priest my mother knew in the jungles of Africa. Like I had a really insanely Catholic upbringing, but I thought it was about love. Right?

[Lee McGowan]

It was about love. There's absolutely no part of my upbringing in which I was told to hate other people. There was no part of my Christian upbringing in which I was told I was better than other people. It was all about like, how are you treating people? How are you making people's lives better? And then a little bit of me patting a lot of fur coats in waspy, waspy Christmas services that sat in front of me. I was like, ooh, all these fur coats I can pat. But no, I loved it. I loved going to church as a child. I loved feeling like there was someone who loved me, that I was part of something bigger and that I was supposed to treat other people as well as I could. That was a huge part of it for me. And that's not what I'm getting now, you know, And I think what people will get if they read your book is that it's not at all preachy, right? Like you're a comedian. It's a very funny book.

[John Fugelsang]

There's way more dick jokes in this book than in most theology treatises. You will read this here. I must, I must warn you in advance.

[Lee McGowan]

That's what we need. We need a couple more dick jokes, a little bit more to get us out of the, out of this mood we're all in. I mean, I think the thing is, is that you don't have to be a biblical scholar to understand what you're talking about when you read this book. It's incredibly informative. But you break down, like you were just saying, these common fundamentalist arguments on things like abortion and immigration and gay rights, and you really expose the hypocrisy and honestly, the inaccuracy of Christian logic by using, as we're hearing you do now, scripture, right? Common sense and what you call deeply inappropriate humor, which I think is actually really important.

[John Fugelsang]

And I want to say, like, the book doesn't denigrate religion, but I also don't ask you to believe anything supernatural. It just goes based on the book we have, let's assume it's all true. And this is why the far right is still against the teachings of Jesus. Now, I'm not talking about the nice conservative Christians. And in many ways, you know, I find nice conservative Christians are often much more liberal with kindness than many actual liberals. So this is about the haters. And nice conservative Christians are going to have to deal with these people, too. They're trying to redefine every level of our society based on deeply bullshit take on the Bible. And they despise what's in the Gospels as much as they despise what's in the Bill of Rights. They're trying to do to Jesus what they're trying to do to the Founding Fathers. And it's against the stated intentions of both. So it's up to us again. We have to convince people. And look how many young people have convinced parents and grandparents in the last 30 years to drop all the homophobia. I mean, there's so much evidence. We are getting better. You told me back in the 90s that we'd have gay marriage and stop putting people in jail for weed and have a black president. I wouldn't have believed it. So there is. You know, we're getting worse economically, but we are becoming kinder in so many ways. Kids today can't believe the homophobia that you and I grew up with. And, and in 20 years, kids won't believe how transphobic they were back in the 20s. Kids get used to it. And what worked in stigmatizing and stereotyping one generation for a previous generation of Charlotte and they get votes, not gonna work for the next one. I do believe that in many ways we are wired to get kinder. But the problem's not religion, it's the fundamentalists. Our atheist friends like to say, oh, religion's responsible for all the oppression of women and homophobia and violence and, and it's hard to disagree. But it's not the liberal and moderate and even conservative Christians, Muslims and Jews causing all the violence and oppression. It is always the extreme conservative wing of every religion causing all the problems, ruining all the religions. Look at the Middle East. It ain't the liberal Christians, Muslims and Jews causing these problems. And you look, no matter how far to the right you go, they're all the same. Women are second class citizens. The more to the right your religion is, the more God made the majority of humans on earth not good enough. The more you have the sex hang ups against women or gay people having sex, the more you think violence is okay if my side does it. The more to the right you are, the more your side believes in punishment over healing. And the more to the right your religion is, the more you think that other religions are allowed to exist, but mine is always superior to theirs. I mean, that's it, right? Like that's what they mean by religious freedom. Oh, Muslims and Jews can exist, but we have to be on top. It's so the opposite of everything Jesus and the founders wanted. And yet it seems like these people keep getting more and more power. And I think the best way to convince the undecided middle they're frauds is to show they don't even follow Jesus. We have to stop them. We can't hate them, but in a democracy we have to beat them.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, no, we do have to beat them. And I think the thing is that years ago I heard about the mountain theory, which I'm sure you know this idea that essentially we're all in the same religion. We Just learned it in different parts of the world. So if you see the world as like a huge mountain, and if you learn Buddhism on that side of the world, or if you learn. If you're a Muslim and you learn about Allah, or if you're American Christian or Canadian Christian, if you go up the mountain, we all end up at the same place, which is a place of love and kindness and acceptance, like most religions are based around that. Right. That we all just learned it at a different part of the mountain. But if the higher you go up to where your God would be, where we're actually all at the same place, which is treat people like you want to be treated, Be kind to others, take care of those who are lesser than you. Most religions have love as their fundamental priority.

[John Fugelsang]

Exactly.

[Lee McGowan]

And yet you're saying everyone thinks that they should be on the top.

[John Fugelsang]

Fundamentalists of every religion are the ones fighting for power.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah. It's the extremists, and they're using it for their own power. And it's usually a bunch of men who have translated the Bible to say what they want it to say. This kind of thing. I find it fascinating because it really always comes down to power and hypocrisy. I was saying in the introduction that Christianity Today recently published a piece about the church needing to take the Nazification of America seriously, which to me, seemed like a big deal for an evangelical network to say. The article talked about how the cross can't yield to the swastika and the Bible has no place sitting beside Mein Kampf. And they were very clearly telling their followers that they have to choose between Jesus and Hitler. And they were discussing people like Tucker Carlson platforming Nazi apologist Nick Fuentes, and how the Heritage foundation is trying to soften the blowback from that conversation. Because there are clearly conservatives in America now deeply uncomfortable with expanding their tent to include Nazism in their coalition. But this is the same party that had all those text messages leaked from leaders of the Young Republicans who were incredibly racist, anti Semitic, and also, like, pro Hitler and pro gas chambers. Right. So apparently there are quite a few American Christians that actually are Team Fuentes. And Trump did have him to mar a Lago for a private dinner.

[John Fugelsang]

Indeed. With Kanye. With Kanye. The all you can Nazi Thanksgiving.

[Lee McGowan]

But the article was saying, like, the line in the sand here isn't just crucial for the future of this nation, but also for the reputation of the church itself. Itself. Right. Like we are actually degrading what we're supposed to be upholding. What do you think about that, I.

[John Fugelsang]

Think it's exactly the truth. I mean this is what the authoritarian regimes do. They dress themselves up in religious language. Hitler did it. And Hitler used the same language you're hearing right now. From saying my faith tells me to see my Lord as a fighter to taking a powerless minority and calling them an existential threat, an infestation and invasion. And this is what demagogues do. They'll take a powerless minority, they'll say this little group as a threat to our way of life, whether it's Jews or Muslims or transgender kids or undocumented migrants looking for nanny work, this, this group is a threat to our way of life. And only I can keep you safe from the existential threat. And this is how they always do it. And it's the opposite of what Jesus commands. Jesus commands you to go to the most despised peoples and love them. If your church isn't telling you to love your enemies, but is telling you who your enemies are, you're not really in a church. And so this is the history of the faith, right since Rome took over. And when Rome co opted Jesus movement, it stopped being about helping the poor. This little movement of a brown skinned Jewish faith healer in the poor neighborhoods. Now it was about dogma and power and hierarchy and armies and conquests. And with the Crusades we finally began to use Jesus name to do the opposite of what Jesus commands. Slaughter Muslims, slaughter Jews, slaughter pagans for land. That was the beginning of doing the opposite of Jesus for Jesus. And that's been the greatest sin of the religion, right? That's the power hungry Christians. But you had the Christ followers like Saint Francis of Assisi who quit the war, renounced violence, walked unarmed through a war zone to host peace talks between a Muslim sultan and a crusader army. You've got the Pope and the Vatican having the doctrine of discovery and saying go ahead and rape the foreign lands and extract their resources and subjugate the people, but push Christianity on them to save their souls so it'll all be okay. So you've got Columbus slaughtering and mutilating and raping the Taino people. But it was the Catholic priest on his third ship, Bartolomeo de las Casas, who committed the first act of protest by a white person in this hemisphere when he wrote to the Queen to protest how the indigenous were being treated as slaves. Because yes, back then people knew it was wrong. Slavery props up Christianity, but you have the Christ followers like the Quakers and Frederick Douglass and Harriet Tubman. Slavery's propping up the industrial revolution. And exploitation of workers and children working in mines. And it's Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement that use scripture to shame capitalism. And the Bible totally backs up segregation. They used Christianity to prop it up and it was Dr. King out of the Ebepodes or Church with nonviolence and the scriptures to shame white America out of our own apartheid. There's an incredible history of Christian activism, but it's almost always manifested itself in resistance to Christian authoritarianism. And that's exactly what you're seeing right now when you witness these priests getting shot in the face with pepper balls because they object to the way we're treating the migrants who come here to work jobs white people dangle for them. What is the Jesus teaching that justifies any of this? Ask your MAGA loved one or co worker what is the actual teaching of Christ that motivated your vote for this guy? What is one teaching of Jesus in the four gospels that Donald Trump or MAGA or the Republican Party have fought for this entire fucking century? Just give me one chapter and verse, please. You'll find out they don't really know the Bible that well and they're counting on you not knowing the Bible that well. Just because they hate trans kids and put up a freakin tree in their house once a year doesn't make them holy people. And as Luke Skywalker says in the Last Jedi, the Jedi don't own the Force. These people don't own Christianity. You don't have to believe in the Bible to take it back from these frauds. Most atheists, excuse me, know it better than the fundamentalists do anyway.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah, so true.

[John Fugelsang]

Man, I got on politics, girl. I got all preachy. Look at me, I'm all wild. Look.

[Lee McGowan]

I think the Church is catching on in many ways itself. Like the Pope recently, the Pope himself, our American Pope recently called on Donald Trump to reflect on his administration's ICE raids and the treatment of immigrants and the way they're behaving and how it's not at all in line with the Scripture. The US Catholic Bishops just issued a super rare public condemnation of the President's what they're calling indiscriminate mass deportation of immigrants.

[John Fugelsang]

These guys are so evil, Lee. They've got the liberals on the side of the Catholic Bishops. They've got us defending Harvard University. They're so evil. That's how bad it is. The Catholic Bishops are the good guys again, folks. We're in the upside down, but God bless God, bless the God.

[Lee McGowan]

This is how bad it is. This is how bad it is because they are talking about how this administration, the US Catholic bishops all got together and they're talking about how this administration is acting completely out of line with what they believe and the amount of Catholics in the world. It actually matters that these guys are saying that. They say they are destroyed, disturbed by the climate of fear and anxiety around this immigration enforcement. They are calling actively for reform. And I find this fascinating. I also find it fascinating watching Donald Trump on Air Force One being like, am I getting into heaven? Like, I don't think I'm getting into heaven. I'm like, bro, you sure as hell ain't. But also the fact that he's thinking about it, I find that fascinating too. I feel like religion is having honestly, like a returning to what it's supposed to be. If Donald understands he's not getting in, he understands what it's actually supposed to be about. 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[John Fugelsang]

He's going to see all of his friends and his dad in the other place, so he'll be fine. Jeff Epstein, Roy Cohn. They're all waiting for a big reunion party. You know, it's interesting hearing him talk about these things because every time Donald Trump talks about Christianity, an angel coughs up blood. The fact is this movement does not give a rat's ass about Jesus. They only care about their own power. Now they'll get around all this. They'll get around God and Jesus. How can you get around God and Jesus? On welcoming the stranger, they'll go to St. Paul, who I had to write a whole chapter on on Jesus, uptight PR guy, because St. Paul's version of the Jesus movement is what passes for Christian Christianity now. So we have to filter everything from Jesus through Paul. And it's Paul who says in the book of Romans that you have to respect the governing authorities for God put them in charge. He's saying this to the church that was being built in Rome. Paul was a Pharisee and a Roman citizen. The fact that he was a Roman citizen meant he could travel all around the Roman Empire and set up churches. While the apostles who actually knew Jesus were all getting murdered by Paul's old friends back home. That's a whole other story. But it's Paul who said respect the governing authorities so they will throw out all of God and all of Jesus to cling to one line of Paul. They're illegals. They cross the border and it's not legal. First off, crossing the border is a misdemeanor. Tell me what other misdemeanors involve you losing your child. Secondly, you want to make them furious. Don't play their game by using this racist slur. Illegals. Call them Christian refugees. They are brown skinned Christians, almost every single one of them. That's crossing, crossing the southern border. But at the end of the day, they're gonna rely on Paul saying respect the governing authorities. I don't recall these people respecting the governing authorities when Joe Biden with a D after his name was in The White House. And these are the people who cheer on a president who supports cops being beaten for a lie. These are the folks who pardon the camp Auschwitz guys. They do not respect the governing authorities. They're authoritarians. That's it. They only respect power. They only care about power. That's what they think godliness is. So there's more of us than there are of them. And all you need to do is know a few Bible verses and ask them the right questions. I don't believe in hating these people, but I think you'll find that if you can engage them on what's actually in the scriptures, and I tried to lay it out argument by argument for any topic, I find that if something happens, they'll never agree with you. Don't buy this book for your right wing loved one. It's for you to deal with them. It's not for them. They'll hate it and throw it at you. But they may appreciate that you, at least if it is a loved one or a co worker, that you took the time to reach over and try to engage them on scripture. Because I think you get a lot farther showing them in the book where Jesus wasn't an immigrant hating homophobe than if you just call your uncle an immigrant hating homophobe. They have a persecution complex. They think you look down on them. They want you to call them a superstitious ghoul. Don't give them the satisfaction. Satisfaction. Turn the other cheek if they're mean to you. Let them model how to be nice to people in the long run. You're not trying to win them over. You're trying to win over everybody else at the Thanksgiving dinner table, everybody else at the reunion. You won't get the fundamentalist, but you might reach their wife or their kids and they'll know that there's a lot more to spirituality than the mean male dominated nonsense these people push.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah. Having another perspective out there. Leading with curiosity. It's what I often talk about in general with politics. You know, when. When I don't agree with someone on politics and I say, you're at your dining room table and your dad says something outrageous, instead of yelling at him, be like, where'd you hear that?

[John Fugelsang]

I know.

[Lee McGowan]

Where'd you read that? Why do you think that you're so.

[John Fugelsang]

Good on Abby's show, by the way? I like that show. That show's designed to make it Thunderdome. Like, I think they huff you up on meth before you go in just to make you angry. And you are so you're such a bodhisattva man. You're a Jedi Master on that show. Talking with our right wing friends.

[Lee McGowan]

Thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it. I always feel like I'm trying to give the truth a fighting chance on that show. Yeah. And in general, being a woman on that show is quite interesting because when you watch the show, women are constantly talked over and then a man will say exactly the same thing. If there's another, say, liberal man at the table, he could say what I just said and everyone will listen to him for a second.

[John Fugelsang]

And I think, you know what else, too? When I was on the show, like, if a guy says the same exact thing a woman just said, they'll all act like, oh, that guy just said that. They won't even notice that the word is.

[Lee McGowan]

David, what a wonderful comment.

[John Fugelsang]

It's incredible.

[Lee McGowan]

Let me ask you, since I have you honestly about women, because Christianity is like, you're here, we're talking about religion and how it's being twisted to control people to the benefit of others. I'd love your thoughts on how the Christian nationalists are speaking about women these days. There are so many online pastors, right wing, you know, quote unquote, men of God, talking about how women shouldn't speak, how we shouldn't vote, how we shouldn't be in the public sphere. Right. To me, it is the weakest of beta men telling women that they shouldn't compete and they should sit down and shut up. And yet it feels like in certain Christian circles it's becoming acceptable to suggest that women should return subservience. You know, we look at red states and we have legislators doing things like lowering the age of consent or keeping or adding child marriage back to the books. It all feels very dangerous to me, especially living in this post roe world.

[John Fugelsang]

I do want to say that what we're living through now with this era of Trumpism, I've always believed, you know, in the horror movie Lee, when the kids all get together and kill the monster in the last scene and they all relax and finally everything's all right, and then suddenly the monster rises one last time and it wasn't dead after all. And this time it's the little shy kid who has the weapon that kills the monster and you know, the little jump scare at the end, that's what Trumpism has been. It has been the last bellow of the ugliest, most misogynist racist part of the 20th century. The shittiest, most insecure white male needs to dominate everything kind of bullshit is dying off, and it's not gonna go gently. Caucasians are going to be a minority in this country 20 years from now. That's when it's projected to dip below 50%. These people are heavily armed. They're going to be freaking out a lot for the next 20 years, and they're going to be claiming that it's all for Jesus. So the chapter that meant the most to me, the chapter I learned the most about in writing this book, was the chapter on feminism. I come from a long line of strong southern women, and the fact is that in the world of the Bible that Jesus was born into, women were property. Women had no inheritance rights. A man could dump his woman anytime he wanted if he no longer delighted in her. Marriage was a contract between two men, the father of the bride and the father of the groom. Women were property, and they were icky. Men did not understand women's physiology, and their menstrual flow, which gives life to all beings, was weaponized against them for centuries of shame, which was used to systemically control women. If you rape a woman who's a virgin, you gotta pay your father some money and marry her. I mean, it's the gospel according to Ike Turner. It's really bad. Jesus shows up, this radical reformed Jew and breaks all the rules and treats women as equals and makes women leaders in his movement. Women actually sponsored Jesus. They were his benefactors. You might not have been taught in your church that women with money were the executive producers. You wonder who financed this? How did Jesus and these guys afford to go walking around women? Women with money financed it. This is a celibate man, and yet women were so drawn to him because he consistently treat women as equals, story after story. We're taught as kids, we're not taught why. They're revolutionary. I mean, there's three women, Mary and Martha and Mary Magdalene, who go everywhere with Jesus. It seems like there's 15 apostles, right? But the men who wrote the Bible said, no, no, no. It's 12 apostles and three groupies. But the women are the only ones who didn't abandon Jesus. And when he comes back, the women are the first ones who reveal themselves. No, no, they sold the. They sold T shirts, they sold merch at the big gigs. That was all the women. They were volunteers, not apostles. So, like you look at really quick, the Samaritan woman by the. Well, it's a great Sam Cooke song. Jesus was not legally allowed to talk to this woman, and the Samaritans were the foreign minority. You're allowed to hate. This woman had been married five times, and Jesus knows it. But he doesn't slut shame her. He doesn't care about her past. She's fetching water by herself in the middle of the day because she can't do it with the other women. In the morning, she's been sleeping slut shamed by her whole town. Jesus tells her that's all cool. Jesus tells her he's the Messiah. It's the longest recorded conversation he has privately in the Bible. And it's with a woman he wasn't legally allowed to speak to because he was a Jew and she was a Samaritan. He doesn't care. He's all about breaking down your religion's laws about exclusivity. Then there's this great story of Mary and Martha where Martha's trying to make things ready for the apostles. They're over the house, and Mary's sitting there at Jesus feet, learning. And Martha's all frustrated because Mary's not helping. She's cooking for all these guys. And Jesus is like, martha, you're stressing everybody out. She's made the right choice. As a kid, I felt bad for Martha. She's doing all. I was the oldest son. She's doing all the work. I didn't know that it was illegal to teach women and that Jesus was breaking the law by teaching Martha's sister Mary. And that by sitting at his feet, that was the sign of being the prized pupil. I didn't understand that what Jesus was saying to Martha was that it's more important for women to get an education than do housework. They don't teach us why. He was a revolutionary. And then there's the Bleeding Woman. Another great Sam Cooke song. Bleeding 12 years. She knew if she could touch the hem of her garment, she'd be healed. It's in all the cartoons. It's in Jesus movies. The reality is, as I said, women's anatomies were weaponized against them. And when a woman was menstruating, she was considered unclean in the eyes of God. If you sat where a menstruating woman had sat, you'd be unclean. If you touched anything a woman had touched, you'd be unclean. This woman's bleeding 12 years. By the law of her own faith, she was unclean in the eyes of God. And by going into the crowd, she broke every law. She made everybody in the crowd unclean. When she touched Jesus garment, she made Jesus ritually unclean in the eyes of God. Jesus turns around says, who touched me? She goes, me. And he says, daughter, your faith has healed you. It's the only time in the Bible Jesus ever calls anybody daughter. And he does it for a ritually impure woman who just broke the laws of the religion about what she can't do. She violated the taboo. Jesus breaks it for good. Time and again. Jesus breaks conservative laws about divorce, the death penalty because he doesn't care. He's about, fuck these rules. It's a deeper kind of love. Go beyond what your love teaches you. And then as soon as Jesus dies, Paul takes over. And Paul brings all his hang ups about women and all that bullshit about submitting to men. Your natural place is submission. None of that comes from Jesus. It all comes from Paul. So any Christian who's trying to pull that shit on you is not a Christian. They're a Paulist. Call them out for it. They're not following Jesus who treated women as equals. They're following the hangups of Paul. And you'll notice conservative guys always quote Paul. They're never trying to put the quotes of Jesus on a classroom or a courthouse wall.

[Lee McGowan]

Right. I love that. I mean, here's the thing. You're clearly incredibly smart and you have this expansive knowledge of religion and politics that feels so relevant to this moment we're living through. And it's not like you're just doing some massive takedown of Christianity or Christian values.

[John Fugelsang]

There's plenty of great books like that out there though. There's plenty of books out there.

[Lee McGowan]

It's about the hypocrisy. The overall message of your book seems to be more about what the Bible and Jesus were actually trying to teach us. Lessons that whether you're Christian or not, like love, mercy, service to others, treating people like you'd like to be treated, and how these things are still worthy of being held up in our society. But I don't think the book is just for Christians or even Americans. It's a bit of a call to arms for anyone who is sick of their religion being used as an excuse for hate.

[John Fugelsang]

You're right. And that's what it's always been. It's always been the progressive and moderate and conservative sane Christians and their allies of other religions, Jews and atheists and agnostics to beat back the batch hit Christians. That's what it's always been. Even if you don't believe it. I like to say we know Jesus spoke in parable and metaphor. Why is it so hard to view the Bible as parable and metaphor? There's a lot of truth in the Bible. Not necessarily a lot of facts we can prove, but a lot of truth. And if you're going to say you follow Jesus and that's why you get to impose your will, your policies again, abortion, cruelty to gay people, none of it comes from Jesus. So I like to say if I'm in a Rolling Stones cover band and I advertise that I'm a Rolling Stones cover band, but I don't actually play any songs by the Rolling Stones, I should find a new name for my shitty group. You know what I'm saying, Lee? You know what I mean?

[Lee McGowan]

I do, I do. You don't want the audience to get no satisfaction. You need to play.

[John Fugelsang]

Oh, look at this one, look at this one.

[Lee McGowan]

You need to. Yeah, you need, you need to be. You need to be playing the hits, my friend.

[John Fugelsang]

Some of the best Christians are the atheists, right? Some of the best Christians are the atheists. And the most godless heathens are the loud Christians.

[Lee McGowan]

Yeah. I mean, look, you wrote separation of church and hate from a place of like, deep religious knowledge, deep political knowledge. You actually, to me, are a person of faith. And it's just debunking this perpetual misconception that right wing conservative politics align with Jesus's teaching because they clearly don't. And I just, I so appreciate your book, not only because it's a great read, but because it allows us to have these conversations with people, you know, to open up, not to fight with them, but to again, lead with curiosity, lead with Jesus, lead with what he was supposed to stand for, to sort of reconnect with what it was supposed to be in a country that is so divided.

[John Fugelsang]

I can't say it better than that. Thank you.

[Lee McGowan]

Thank you.

[John Fugelsang]

I'm such a fan of what you do, Lee. I just want to say I've been a longtime fan and we met at the Democratic National Convention in Chicago where I gush to you and your husband because I just love what you do. I love the tone. I love that you always keep it entertaining first and preachy last. And it's really an honor to be on your show and to congratulate you guys for all your success because you do such a good broadcast.

[Lee McGowan]

John, thank you so much. And I hope people will listen to you on Sirius xm. Please tell them how they can buy your book and follow your work moving forward.

[John Fugelsang]

Oh, Lord. Okay, here it comes. Okay. It's Separation of Church and Hate. A Sane Person's Guide to Take It Back. The Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock Fleecing Frauds. Seven weeks on the New York Times Bestseller List. Get the audiobook. I also have a substack because that's the thing. Now I'm all over social media on Fugalsang. I apologize for the goofy spelling of my last name. The show is called tell me everything five nights a week primetime on SiriusXM progress shuttle 127 nine to midnight Eastern, 6 to 9pm Pacific Time and the Jon Fugelsang Podcast. If you don't have SiriusXM, all the best parts are of last night's show. Go to johnfiegelshang.com and meathook live. JF for our recent live special we just did for the Separation of Church and Hate Book Tour live in D.C. with special guest Glenn Kirschner. And I think I've whored myself about as deeply as I possibly can. Lee thank you guys so much.

[Lee McGowan]

Thank you. It's so nice to see you and I hope you'll come back again anytime.

[John Fugelsang]

Thank you so much.

[Lee McGowan]

So that was John Fugelsang reminding us that the problem isn't religion. It's the fundamentalists and the extremists who use religion as a way to power. As John says, if your church isn't telling you to love your enemies, but telling you who your enemies are, then it isn't a church. We have to stop using religion as an excuse to hate. There is a reason our Constitution gave us a society where the church and state existed independent of each other and anyone who is suggesting the two should co mingle isn't doing it because they love Jesus. They're doing it because they love power and they're acquiring it in his name. I want to thank John for joining us today and you for caring enough about this country to be here now. Maybe consider picking up a copy of Separation of Church and Hate as a Christmas present. What a timely gift. Until next week, PG Out Would you like to get this podcast ad free delivered directly to your inbox along with my kitchen rants? Then please consider becoming a member of Politics Girl Premium by going to politicsgirl.com and signing up. If you're already a premium member of this podcast, thank you so much for your support. And if you're not a member, please consider becoming a patron of my work. Mainstream news is only giving you a version of billionaire backed propaganda at this point, so if you want real knowledge, it's essential to support those of us out here still bringing it to you. There is a link to sign up in the bio of this episode but [e-mail] and as always, please like and share this podcast so we can grow our audience, because the more people who have access to this kind of information, the better. As always, thank you for your time and support. The Politics Girl podcast is written and performed by me, Lee McGowan, and produced and edited by Happy Warrior Entertainment. All rights reserved.