The PoliticsGirl Podcast

Episode Title: You Call Yourself a Christian?! A conversation with John Fugelsang
Host: Leigh McGowan (PoliticsGirl)
Guest: John Fugelsang (Comedian, Writer, Broadcaster, Author of "Separation of Church and Hate")
Date: December 2, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode is a deeply engaging, often humorous, and rousingly passionate conversation between Leigh McGowan and John Fugelsang. They dive into the misuse of Christianity in American politics, especially by the far right, and discuss Fugelsang’s bestselling book, Separation of Church and Hate. The central theme: reclaiming Christianity from fundamentalists and fascists who have weaponized religion for power, and returning to the actual teachings of Jesus—compassion, humility, service, and love.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Hijacking of American Christianity

• Main point: The intention of both the U.S. Constitution (separation of church and state) and Jesus’s original teachings have been distorted by political operatives and fundamentalists who use faith for personal power.
• Fugelsang’s Perspective:
  • Christianity in America has strayed far from the teachings of Jesus, who prioritized the marginalized (Matthew 25: feed the poor, care for sick, welcome the stranger, kindness to the imprisoned).
  • Fundamentalists have fixated on social issues (e.g., abortion, LGBTQ rights) never mentioned by Jesus, while ignoring his core commandments.
  • “If you’re going to say you follow Jesus and that’s why you get to impose your will, your policies — again, abortion, cruelty to gay people, none of it comes from Jesus.” (John Fugelsang, [00:00])
• Memorable Analogy:
  • “If I’m in a Rolling Stones cover band and I advertise that I’m a Rolling Stones cover band, but I don’t actually play any songs by the Rolling Stones, I should find a new name for my shitty group.” (John Fugelsang, [00:00], [46:59])

2. Personal Religious Upbringings & Disenchantment

• Both hosts share:
  • They were raised in loving, service-oriented Christian environments—Fugelsang by an ex-nun mother and Franciscan brother father, McGowan in Canadian Anglicanism.
  • The current landscape makes them feel alienated from “American Christianity,” which they see as harsh, exclusionary, and obsessed with dogma over love.
  • “There’s absolutely no part of my upbringing in which I was told to hate other people.” (Leigh McGowan, [18:05])
• On the Largest Religious Group:
  • “I think the largest growing group…is people who were raised religious and now consider themselves spiritual because they’re turned off to all the hypocrisy and cruelty of so much of organized religion.” (John Fugelsang, [05:35])

3. Biblical Arguments on Hot-Button Issues

• Reclaiming the Bible from the Right:
  • Fugelsang urges listeners to challenge Christian nationalists on their own terms—asking “Where in the Gospels did Jesus talk about this?” on topics like abortion and LGBTQ rights.
  • “At no point in the Bible does Jesus say men should be allowed to force citizens to be pregnant against their will...I’m not saying Jesus is pro-abortion...I’m saying they’ve prioritized something that’s not in the Bible.” (John Fugelsang, [10:52])
• Abortion:
  • Cites Exodus 21 and Numbers 5 to argue the Bible does not prohibit abortion.
• Immigration:
  • “The God of the Hebrew scriptures commands us to welcome the stranger and commands us to treat the alien as we treat our own.” (John Fugelsang, [12:52])
  • Challenges the hypocrisy of ignoring Jesus’s direct teachings about welcoming outsiders.

4. The Fundamentalist Threat & The Mountain Theory

• Fundamentalist Danger:
  • It's not religion, but fanaticism and extremism that corrupt, harm, and oppress.
  • “The problem’s not religion, it’s the fundamentalists.” (John Fugelsang, [21:32])
  • “The more to the right your religion is, the more women are second-class citizens…the more you think violence is okay if my side does it…” (John Fugelsang, [20:30])
• “Mountain Theory” (McGowan at [22:30]):
  • Most religions are different paths up the same mountain—compassion, love, and kindness at the pinnacle.
  • Extremists of any tradition are those who seek to be “on top”, seeking power for themselves.

5. Nazification and Authoritarianism in American Christianity

• Media Call-Outs:
  • Recent Christianity Today piece warns against conflating Christianity with Nazism—“the cross cannot yield to the swastika”.
  • McGowan points out troubling events: Nazi sympathizers in conservative circles, Young Republicans’ racist and antisemitic messages, and Trump's private dinner with Nick Fuentes and Kanye West.
• Historical Parallels:
  • “Authoritarian regimes dress themselves up in religious language. Hitler did it…It’s the opposite of what Jesus commands.” (John Fugelsang, [25:11])
  • Demagogues always need marginalized scapegoats to rally the majority.

6. Resistance Throughout Christian History

• From St. Francis to MLK:
  • Fugelsang traces history of Christian resistance to Christian authoritarianism.
  • “Even while Christianity justified atrocities like slavery and conquests, activists from within resisted: Dorothy Day, Quakers, Frederick Douglass, Dr. King…” (John Fugelsang, [26:10])

7. The Paul Problem and Gender

• Paul vs. Jesus:
  • Much of what is weaponized against women in modern Christianity comes from Paul, not Jesus.
  • Jesus broke with social taboos, treated women as equals, made them leaders, and valued education for women.
  • “Any Christian who’s trying to pull that shit on you is not a Christian. They’re a Paulist.” (John Fugelsang, [45:35])

8. How to Engage with Fundamentalists

• Advice:
  • Don’t try to “convert” your right-wing relatives. Use curiosity, humility, and direct scriptural questioning to open conversation, not confrontation.
  • “They have a persecution complex…They think you look down on them…Don’t give them the satisfaction…You’re not trying to win them over. You’re trying to win over everybody else at the Thanksgiving dinner table.” (John Fugelsang, [37:30])
• Practical Tip:
  • “Don’t call them illegals—call them Christian refugees. They’re almost all brown-skinned Christians crossing the border.” (John Fugelsang, [36:06])

9. Hope for Change

• Both note social progress: gay marriage, cannabis legalization, an African-American president, declining homophobia in the young.
• “In 20 years, kids won’t believe how transphobic they were back in the 20s. Kids get used to it. I do believe in many ways we are wired to get kinder.” (John Fugelsang, [19:32])

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “If your church isn’t telling you to love your enemies, but is telling you who your enemies are, you’re not really in a church.”
  — John Fugelsang [25:45]

• “Some of the best Christians are the atheists, right? And the most godless heathens are the loud Christians.”
  — John Fugelsang [48:02]

• “There’s no hate like Christian love.”
  — Leigh McGowan [08:43]

• “We’re not against religion. We’re against bigots hijacking religion for hate and power.” (Paraphrased throughout the episode)

• On Media/Cultural Responsibility:
  “The media is never going to ask these frauds who don’t follow Jesus about the actual teachings of Jesus. And the Democratic Party is going to be way too timid.”
  — John Fugelsang [09:25]

• “They want power; they use the issue for it…The fact is, their real religion is pretending they're better than you…If you think you're better than somebody else because you follow Jesus, you don't actually follow Jesus.”
  — John Fugelsang [13:22]

Important Timestamps & Segments

• 00:00 – 03:47: Opening remarks; Fugelsang’s Rolling Stones cover band analogy; context for the discussion
• 03:47 – 07:36: Fugelsang’s family background; what he was taught about the real values of Christianity
• 09:25 – 14:01: Media and political cowardice on abortion; biblical analysis; the real motives of the religious right
• 17:24 – 22:30: How fundamentalists are the problem, not religion itself; what changes look like over generations
• 22:30 – 25:11: The Mountain Theory; cross vs. swastika; America’s religious crisis
• 25:11 – 29:05: Authoritarianism, the Nazis, the legacy of Rome, and Christian resistance through history
• 36:06 – 38:32: The Paul problem; how debates over women’s status in church come from post-Jesus dogma
• 39:32 – 46:10: Gender politics and biblical context; how Jesus treated women
• 46:29 – 48:52: Book’s final message—restore Christianity to its roots; all are welcome in the resistance to hate

Tone & Style

• Generously laced with humor (“way more dick jokes in this book than in most theology treatises,” [18:48]), sharp wit, and righteous indignation.
• Both McGowan and Fugelsang balance deep expertise with approachability and empathy: willing to challenge listeners to action but refusing to demonize the faithful.

Summary Takeaways

• The crisis in American Christianity is not about belief in God, but about the hijacking of faith to justify politics of cruelty and domination.
• The teachings and spirit of Jesus are radically at odds with the policies and rhetoric of America's Christian right.
• Reclaiming Christian language and scripture from fundamentalists is an act of both justice and patriotism—available even to non-believers.
• “Progress” often means speaking up, asking uncomfortable questions, and modeling kindness and humility—just as Jesus did.
• "Separation of Church and Hate" is both a funny and fearless resource for anyone tired of religion being abused for hate, and for empowering ourselves in political and cultural conversations.

For Further Engagement

• John Fugelsang’s Book:
  Separation of Church and Hate: A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock Fleecing Frauds
  (See [49:22] for where to buy; available as audiobook and at johnfugelsang.com)

• Fugelsang’s Podcast: Tell Me Everything, SiriusXM Progress Channel 127, 9pm–midnight ET

If you’re dismayed by religion on America’s right, or feel dislocated in your own faith, this episode is a compelling, funny, and ultimately hopeful roadmap back to compassion, community, and courage.