D (3:48)

going to be able to be plastic

B (3:49)

like the one on display in the booth. And they start to pick it apart. But again, this is what a company does when they keep pressing the boundaries of what's possible. Now, I'm sure that the engineers are already kind of working through those particular problems, and what we saw on was just what we can imagine might have to take place. Okay. So the best part of this whole thing is we recorded it live on the show floor at Con Expo. So you can hear, you know, some buzzing of people talking and some machines in the background, the general chaos and buzz of a live event happening all around us. So let's jump into the conversation from the Vermeer booth at Con Expo live in Las Vegas. I think you can get really a kick out of it. Let's go.

D (4:38)

Your lead engineer here at. Is that correct?

E (4:41)

So I lead an engineering team that works on some of our R D projects at Vermeer.

D (4:46)

Okay. What's this nonsense I hear about you guys taking. You'll have the first machine on the.

B (4:50)

On the moon. Is this true?

E (4:52)

Sure. So really, what Vermeer is doing is we're doing kind of a technology development project in partnership with a company called Interlune.

D (4:59)

Okay.

E (4:59)

So Interlune is a space resource company.

D (5:02)

Wow.

E (5:03)

And their business plan, their business model is to develop a system and equipment to take up the surface of the moon, to excavate the lunar regolith, the soil, and try to extract helium 3 to bring back to Earth.

D (5:17)

Wow, that is fascinating. You're blowing my mind right now.

B (5:19)

Yeah.

E (5:19)

So Vermeer's part in that, you know, we have a small part in that partnership of helping to develop the trenching technology that's going to be needed to do that work in a low gravity environment.

D (5:30)

And robotic, of course. Right.

E (5:31)

I mean, there'd be a robotic aspect to it, but really, Vermeer's piece, you know, why Interlune approached Vermeer about this is just because we're experts entrenching on Earth and we have the resources, the experience to help modify our existing equipment to work in that tough environment.

D (5:47)

That's amazing. So were you who has the connection with NASA? Is that someone on your team or was it you?

E (5:54)

Yeah, sure. So our president and CEO, Jason Andrega, he's the grandson of our founder, Gary Vermeer. So he worked at the Jet Propulsion Lab before coming back to work at his family's company at Vermeer.

D (6:08)

So basically, rocket scientist.

E (6:09)

Exactly, yeah.

D (6:10)

Oh, my God, it's amazing. Is that why this stuff's so state of the art?

E (6:14)

Yeah, that's definitely a big piece of it. You know, Vermeer has a long history of pushing limits and innovation, you know, looking at tough problems. You know, this is a really challenging problem for us and just working through, trying stuff to figure out what works and just ultimately coming up with a solution that we think can go solve the problem.

D (6:30)

Is this, is this similar to what will be up on. On the moon?

E (6:33)

Sure.

D (6:34)

This, this particular machine.

E (6:35)

Yeah. So I think interludes long term goal is to have a machine of this type of scale, you know, processing nearly 100 tons an hour of regolith to extract the helium. So there's a lot of steps that they're going to have to take in that journey to be there. So early iterations would probably be much smaller than this in different form factors.

B (6:51)

Okay.

E (6:51)

Yeah.

D (6:51)

I was going to ask, is this an actual size?

B (6:53)

Sure.

D (6:55)

Four tracks. Do these pivot a certain way too?

E (6:57)

I mean, so this is a quad steer. So this is built off of our 1250 i2 platform that you see here.

D (7:02)

Okay.

E (7:03)

So this is an existing product that Vermeer builds today for trenching and plowing that we've modified with our new trenching technology.

D (7:11)

Okay.

E (7:12)

For that low gravity.

B (7:12)

Seems like more like a coring.

D (7:13)

I mean. Well, it did lay flat and trench that way too. And straight down.

E (7:17)

Yep. So this plunges into the ground holding the same angle that it has.

D (7:20)

Okay.

E (7:21)

And then the whole machine drives forward, milling the face of the trench. And the idea here is, if you look at this machine as it sits here, it weighs about 30,000 pounds. When you put it on the surface of the moon in 1 6th gravity, it only weighs about 5,000 pounds.

B (7:35)

Wow.

E (7:35)

So that downforce that we rely on to cut the rock and cut the dirt on Earth.

D (7:39)

Okay.

E (7:39)

Doesn't exist. So the idea by angling these augers forward is as they're cutting, they're actually kind of helping us Anchor and hold the machine down to give us traction out of the tracks.

D (7:49)

Got it. That was my next question is how are you going to overcome that gravity?

E (7:52)

Exactly. Yep. Okay, so there's a second.

D (7:55)

So this particular angle is critical to that.

E (7:56)

It is, Yep. If you go too steep, you know, they need to get very long and you start undercutting the material too much, that's collapsing. So finding that right balance was critical in our design.

D (8:05)

Do we have any idea of what the, what, what the soil conditions are going to be like on, on the moon?

E (8:10)

Yeah. So really, you know, we're, we're leveraging Interloons experience in that. So interestingly, you know, a technical advisor for Interloon is a. There's a great guy named Jack Harrison Schmidt.

D (8:21)

Okay.

E (8:21)

He's one of the Apollo 17 astronauts and a geologist. So one of the only people in history that's actually dug a trench with a shovel on the moon. And he's been instrumental in helping us to understand what the interaction of that regolith is going to be and has helped us recreate some analogs that we've used in Iowa to test this machine.

D (8:41)

Wow, that's fascinating. How long has this been under play here? I mean, how long has this been in the works? Yep.

E (8:47)

So we've been working with Interlume for about two years. You know, that partnership started out with a lot of, you know, brainstorming activities and scaled testing in the laboratory, trying to figure out what are the key characteristics of our design to do the work. And then over the last winter is when we built this machine over a two month period, put it together, put it out in the dirt and tested it in an instrumented fashion to figure out what worked, what we needed to modify it to make it work better. And then since then there's been some recent press releases, work we're doing with Interlude and a third party Astrolabe of integrating this technology into a more lunar ready rover platform.

B (9:24)

Right.

D (9:25)

What, what do that. Do you have any special tie downs for on the rocket? Do they got to take it? Sure, yeah.

E (9:30)

That's nothing that we've considered yet, but certainly that's going to be a requirement.

D (9:34)

Yeah. It's not like it's high down on the back of a truck and you're taking it down the highway.

E (9:37)

Yeah, the accelerations are incredible.

D (9:40)

So I'm just really curious how it's going to get strapped down.

E (9:43)

Sure, yeah. That's really not Vermeer's expertise so much. You know, there's a lot of smart people in the space industry that are working through those types of things.

D (9:50)

Yeah, yeah.

E (9:50)

But where Vermeer really brings a lot of value to a partnership like this is in our practical experience of cutting dirt on Earth for the last 78 years. And how can we help bring that experience to a different industry that.

D (10:03)

Yeah, maybe that's about a different planet.

E (10:05)

That too.

D (10:05)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (10:09)

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D (10:55)

There's a conspiracy. We haven't been to the moon yet. Sure you want to talk to that?

E (10:59)

Yeah. So, I mean, I have no way of knowing the answer to that other than, you know, I personally have met several times with and talked to. Talked to a man that's been there and walked and dug a hole.

D (11:08)

So you looked in his eyes and, you know.

E (11:10)

Yep.

D (11:10)

What was the shovel like? Was that hand shoveled? You know, because I, I'm fascinated by this. I build ponds for living.

E (11:16)

Yeah.

D (11:16)

My, my logo on my hat is a shovel. I'm just curious, what kind of shovel? Do you know what, you know, what he did?

E (11:21)

I'm not sure. I think it was some kind of a spade or a folding shovel.

D (11:24)

Yeah. Yeah. Kind of folding down one wonder. I wonder if he got his foot behind that or if he was just using his hand or something like that.

E (11:30)

He said it was pretty difficult to dig in. So the material is very. It's unweathered. So it's very angular in shape.

D (11:36)

Okay.

E (11:37)

So if you hold a loose handful of it, it's very similar to sand, but it's sharp and angular so the particles lock together.

D (11:44)

No kidding.

E (11:44)

So it's kind of like trying to dig into wood chips or something where the shovel just really won't penetrate into it.

D (11:48)

Well, okay, that's fascinating because I see you have some rocks right here. Were those, were those designed at all or just some fun, random rocks?

E (11:56)

Yeah, the marketing folks put those in there just to kind of try to lighten up. The display a little bit, but.

D (12:00)

Yeah, I wonder what. I wonder what kind of rock you might dig up after doing it.

E (12:05)

So, you know, their understanding of the lunar surfaces, primarily from geological surveys done during the Apollo missions and then some other satellite imagery that they've taken. But the expectation is that the areas that they'll be working are pretty consistent to full depth of just. Of that loosely packed regolith material.

D (12:24)

Okay. Okay.

E (12:24)

They'll be trying to avoid any rocky areas or. Or boulders, that type thing.

D (12:29)

What. What's your specific play on this? I mean, you're running the engineering team, right? How many engineers are here thinking this through? Tell me how you're impacting the. The cause.

E (12:38)

Yeah, so we have pretty small team working on this. We got, you know, three to four to five people at some times that will jump in on this project as the work. Workload requires. And then that same team will, you know, does R and D activities around all of our products as the work comes and goes.

D (12:55)

Are you on some of that thought process of design and ideas, or are you just helping manage those guys? What does that even look like? Because I can imagine, because someone has an idea like, hey, I think this could be probable. We should come at this angle and we should have the. How those ideas come together and meld into one piece of machinery.

E (13:14)

Yeah. So, I mean, I've been at vermeer for about 16 years in various engineering departments, and really, that experience has helped me to understand and lead this team on. You know, really our philosophy is we should try as many ideas as that we possibly can. So our real focus is taking that team and trying to isolate out what are the ideas that are worth trying and putting the resources and the time and the money into taking them to steel to understand are they actually going to work or not. So, yeah, that's the same process we use on a directional drill as we do on a moon trencher.

D (13:47)

But, okay, you know, I was thinking, you know, when I get up, when I get a new machine, I talked to Steve about getting one of those ML1 hundreds. That's a great machine. But, you know, when I. When I get a new machine, I usually baby it for a little bit. You know, I'm not just like full tilt and going hard on it, get that engine to break in. So do you guys have a thought process like that? You got to put this machine, put it under some duty, you know, for a certain amount of hours before you send into space, in case, you know, like what? Have you thought that through?

E (14:16)

Yeah, not really that far. I mean, generally, Vermeer's got a pretty solid process that we use for testing things. So oftentimes, many of the individual components will try to do testing on those individual components all the way until they fail. So we have a lot of technology and infrastructure at Vermeer to take components and push them to the absolute limit to see what will eventually happen to them. So we can just target those individual failures and keep improving it so that once the machines get out with customers or get to another planet. Yeah, yeah, we know what's going to happen before it happens.

D (14:46)

Yeah, that's super cool. How far up to the future are we talking here?

E (14:48)

Yeah, I mean, that's really a question for Interlude. You know, we don't. We don't know. We're doing whatever we can to support them, but ultimately it's going to be a group effort of the whole space industry of getting commercially viable flights to and from the Moon to enable. To enable this technology to be applied.

D (15:06)

So have you guys talked to Elon yet about going to Mars?

E (15:09)

No, he hasn't called us yet.

D (15:10)

He hasn't called you yet? Because he does a lot of boring and things like that. So it's like, come on, you should jump on us. We've been doing for 78 years. It's time to get into that.

E (15:20)

That would be cool. Yeah, I think Vermeer, I mean, we really have a strong story to tell on how we can. We can help in the variety of different challenges that there's going to be on Earth and in the Moon, obviously, for sure.

D (15:30)

Well, let me see if I can pull some strings and get Elon to give you guys a call.

E (15:33)

That'd be awesome.

D (15:34)

Anything. Finally. You sound pretty excited about this project.

E (15:37)

Yeah, I think one of the really big benefits that this project has had for Vermeer is just in the excitement within our teams.

D (15:44)

Yeah.

E (15:44)

So the folks that are working on the floor every day building all this equipment, they think it's cool to work for a company that's willing to. Willing to push the limits and try stuff like this. Yeah, you know, we never know what. What's going to come of it, what we're going to learn, or whether we'll be successful or not. But Vermeer showing time and time again that we're willing to go try it.

D (16:01)

Yeah. Awesome. Andy, any final words for me?

E (16:05)

No. I really appreciate you stopping by. This has been awesome.

D (16:07)

So, yeah, I'll be keeping a close eye on you guys for that, and that makes me excited to, like, start to lean into Vermeer.

B (16:13)

Product line.

D (16:13)

Knowing that it's, you know, it's pushing boundaries on the world, I think it's amazing.

E (16:17)

Yeah, that's what we do every day.

D (16:18)

All right, thanks so much.

C (16:20)

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B (17:51)

wrap for this one today. Ladies and gentlemen. Thank you so much for your ears and attention to the podcast. It really, really means the world to me. I hope you found something curious in the conversation that I had at the premiere booth, you know, because here at Conexpo, you know, these guys are incredibly busy, and for them to take the time to, you know, contemplate what's imaginable with me on a podcast on Live on the Floor, it's a big deal for me, and I hope you enjoyed that.

D (18:16)

You know, I got just.

B (18:17)

I had to tell you, this is. These are the conversations that really make you stop and think. Because when you zoom out for a minute, the challenges that engineers are solving aren't that different. Because whether you're digging a trench in someone's backyard or installing infrastructure across the cities or figuring out how to excavate lunar soil on the moon. At the core of all of it is engineering, innovation and constant never ending improvement.

D (18:44)

The relentless.

B (18:45)

The relentless. Did I say that word right? The relentless pursuit of better solutions. And that's what we're doing here on the Deep End podcast, is we're constant and never ending improvement, looking to become the best version of ourselves. And we just never stop. Even when it's earthly. You think beyond that, go unimaginable. Okay. And that's something that I really admire Vermeer about. They've been doing it for nearly eight decades and they're thinking way outside the box. So, I mean, what I love about companies like Vermeer is that they never stop pushing forward, just like we're trying to do here on the Deep End podcast. They continue investing in themselves, in engineering, in technology, staying at the forefront of the industry and, you know, the new ideas that ultimately benefit people actually running equipment out in the field. It stretches, you know, globally and beyond. The next breakthrough in excavation technology might come from the same type of thinking that built the machines contractors are running and using every day here, right on Earth. Okay, so huge thanks to Vermeer team for taking some time during that chaos at the Con Expo to share some insight on the work that they're doing to make the machines here on Earth the best possible version of what we have available to us. So if you're a contractor who's geeking out on machines and innovation, the future of our industry, you're going to want to keep an eye out on what Ramirez is doing. That's it, rockstars. Remember, this episode is brought to you as our Pod House series here in Las Vegas, our maiden voyage this year. And we're working together with all these other podcasters and contractors, industry leaders, to create content, collaborate, and talk about future of our industry and the space of contractors. And yes, that pun was intended. So, anyways, that's it. We've got more conversations coming your way from the showroom floor at Con Expo. We'll be uploading here in the future, so stick around and listen out for Pothouse Studios, because we'll be traveling the country this year. Until next time, keep building, keep learning, and keep pushing yourself to become the absolute best version of yourself. And when you think you hit the ceiling, think well beyond that for you and your business. That's it for today. We'll see you in the Deep end. Sam.