← The Deep End with Eric Triplett
The Deep End with Eric Triplett
S2-E42: Your Circle Is Building You… or Breaking You - with Zoe Asher
01:56:54
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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to the Deep End with Eric Triplett, the pond digger. This is the show for contractors, tradesmen and entrepreneurs who want more from their business and from themselves. Eric brings decades of experience as a seven figure contractor with expertise in leadership, sales systems, and the discipline it takes to build something real. Shaped by years in the aquatics world, his insights are rooted in precision, craftsmanship, and performance. If you're done skimming the surface and ready to go deeper, it's time to dive in. What's happening, rockstars? It's Triplett here. Let me ask you a serious question. When's the last time you actually took inventory of your friendships? I'm talking a real deal audit. Not just, yeah, I got some buddies. These guys I drink beer with, these guys I golf with, these guys I work with, like, you know, a lot of acquaintances like that, but, like, actually looking deeply at the people in your life and asking, like, who has my back no matter what? Who can I tell the truth to? Who do I. Who's. Who can I get spiritual with? Who celebrates my wins and, you know, like, who keeps me grounded? Who's willing to call me out on my. Because here's the reality. Most people don't have five great friends. Honestly. I mean, there's a lot of people that don't have a single great friend, let alone five. And a few years back, I went through what I'm now calling a friendship audit. You know, that's how it hit me, right? And it hit me a lot harder than I expected. And there were people that I thought were in my corner that really weren't. There are gaps in relationships that I didn't realize I had. And it forced me to take a look at myself as well. Like a deep look. Like, am I showing up as the kind of friend for other people? Like, I want them to show up for me. Like, these are the deep thoughts that stuck with me. So when I came across someone who literally coaches people on friendship, you know, you can imagine I was intrigued because most of us are out here working on our businesses, our money, our health, our hobbies. But we're not all intentional about the people that we surround ourselves with. In fact, I would say most people are probably selfish. What's in it for me? And that's the problem. So in this episode, of course, you know, on the deep end, we go deep. We're going to talk about the five types of friends that I truly believe you need in your life. And sometimes you'll find a friend that fits all five types. And that's a Very special person. Sometimes you'll find another person that lines up with one of these types or two of these types, and these are all important people. And I'll get into that, deeper into the podcast. So I don't want to tell you that now, but we get really deep about why most people are missing a few of those. So I want you to lean in and look really closely, listen closely, and you will have a new perspective on what friendships mean to you. And I'm going to introduce to you my special guest, Zoe Asher, who's doing something really powerful in a workspace as a friendship coach.
- [03:47]
B
But.
- [03:47]
A
But for now, let's get right into it. I'm fascinated to hear your opinion on something that I find very close to me. I did some stats before we jumped on here, and you probably know these off the top of your head, but I. It's my understanding that 53% of people have one to four close friends, and about 39% have two or less friends. And then the rest have zero close friends. And the reason this is important to me, because I saw this reel that we're supposed to have five friends in our life, that five different roles. And if you could find these roles in five different people, then that would be great. But if you could find a person that might have one or two of those roles, they're very special. And so it's about doing a friendship audit. And I'm not trying to test you, but I would love to hear if you really, you know, if you have these kind of, like, locked in.
- [04:55]
B
Yeah. So there's a lot of different kind of research on it, and not all of them coincide with one another. So it's basically just everyone's take on it. What I will say the through line is the Dunbar principle, which is the five friends, but basically it's a concentric circle, and the tightest one is the core. And in that circle, you can have a max of three people. Most people have two. This is your core unit. And then the second zone outside of that is five friends that people typically have. So I think that is the one that's being referred to in that stat right there.
- [05:36]
A
Okay. This is fascinating. This is fascinating. I think we already. I think we're already hitting a fork in the road, which is fun for me. This is fun for me.
- [05:43]
B
Yeah.
- [05:43]
A
So first of all, I heard. The first time I heard this, I heard the five people you need in your life, Right. You need a loyalist, a confidant, a champion, a mentor, and a truth teller.
- [05:55]
B
Yeah.
- [05:56]
A
Okay. And then I heard someone else say, well, you need three people in your life, and it would be the. The loyalist and the confidant and the truth teller. But I like that five, I think having those other ones because. And I want to break those down a little bit because I think this is important to me because we can start with a ride or die. You know, everyone's like, hey, they're my ride or die. But, like, yes, I think my definition of ride or die and someone else's is completely different.
- [06:25]
B
I guarantee the two of us have probably different definitions of it. So. Yeah, and it comes down to those five things is most people, typically, when they're thinking ride or die, they're probably hoping for all five of those. Or. Or four. Maybe the mentor piece is the part that's usually taken off the table first. But, yes, I'd love to get into it with you.
- [06:48]
A
Okay, so let's let me break them down how I understand them because you talked about a Dunbar, and maybe I just want to get aligned right now. You and I got. So the truth teller is someone who's gonna call you out on your bullshit. Hey, bro, you're getting fat. What's happening? Like, what are you doing? Hey, you know, like, this is not really aligning with the core values that I thought you had. And, like, you're gonna call you out, right? You're drinking too much. Quit it. Like, not, you know, like, push you past your limit. The truth teller, the mentor, as far as I look at it, is more like someone who's spiritual in your life. Like, I have a lot of people who are that spiritual person who will treat, you know, talk real close to you about certain things. And, you know, it's interesting because I'm agnostic, so, like, I believe in something, but I'm not really sure. So I have people in my life that I can lean on if I need to talk about God or, like, what's your. How do you think about this? Like, champion, Someone who's going to root for you no matter what. Someone, when you fall down, they're going to pick you up. And some. Someone who's like, the champion to me is, like, when you win big, you're excited to tell them, and. And, like, they're excited to hear it, and they're. They don't get jealous. You know, sometimes you tell someone, oh, this has just happened, and they're like, oh, must be nice, right? So the champion won't do that to you. The confidant is someone you can just tell your inner, most deepest Secrets and like, they're not going to get out. And then there's the ride or die. Someone you're going to call 2 in the morning and they're going to go, where do you want me? You know, what do you want me to bring? They're going to, you know, so like, those are the five people. And what I struggle with is I do have. I do have people that fit all those roles. And I think some people think I fit some of those roles to them, but I don't. Does that make sense?
- [08:41]
B
I mean, yes.
- [08:42]
A
It's complicated. This is a complicated topic for sure.
- [08:46]
B
Yeah. So it's almost like you've gotten to this position with other people and you've only found out, oh, their expectations of me are not ones that I am capable. And then has it led to a conversation or has that created just inevitable tension? What's happened in those moments?
- [09:08]
A
You know, I'm an eight personality, so I'm very bold. I mean, I'll talk about whatever, whenever, you know, so, you know, I've had positions like, look, I have a ride or die guy. I can call and I know he'll be here no matter what. But like my, I have goosebumps. I'm telling you this though. I'm so excited about this call because, like, if I call on a ride or die moment, it's dire. Like, I don't know where you are at in. Let me just throw it out on the table like a ccw, like a concealed carry permit, second amendment rights kind of thing. Like, the way I think about it, if that gun comes out, it's going off like it's. Something's happening, you know, you don't pull it out to the very last. Like, no matter what, you don't, you don't brandish it. You don't pat your belly and go like, hey, you want some of it? Like, it's like when I. If a weapon comes out of my, you know, out of my safes or wherever, things are going down, right? And so there's other people that, like, I would never call on Ride or Die unless it was like, legitimate, right? And I have other people that are in my life that are irresponsible. They make stupid decisions, then they put themselves in awkward spots where they shouldn't be. And like, their moment of ride or die is like, you put yourself there, you know, like, you want me to jeopardize everything that I have because you made a terrible decision right now. I'm not a ride or die in that capacity. And I think you have this completely misunderstood and I've had that conversation with some people. Does that make sense?
- [10:38]
B
Yeah, no, it makes, it makes total sense. And it seems, I like this, this five that we're talking about because I think that really Ride or die basically is the complete picture of somebody that fits all of those other ones. Because a Ride or die is someone that is going to champion you. It's someone who is going to support you. It's someone that is going to be there for you in the middle of the night. And just like to pause on that part for a second. They have actually done some stunning, in the worst way research and found that 60% of people don't have a, quote, ride or die, a friend that they believe that they could call in the middle of the night for a middle of the night crisis. And some people are like, oh no, like my family's for that. No, that's what we're talking about is a non family member. There are 60% of people that cannot think of one person that they would call in the middle of a night crisis. And that is the problem with this is because if you are not looking for people who can hit each of these, you know, elements in your life, really it all comes back to ourselves first. We are the ones to blame for that because we have to be willing to go first, be vulnerable, ask for help, tell people what's going on in our lives. And so many of us have this, you know, jaded nature. Maybe it's because you've been burned before. Hello. Like if you've been burned, raise your hand. I think everyone's raising their hand, right? But you don't stop eating food because you got food poisoning once. Like, just because one person or a group of people burned you doesn't mean the next ones will. And so we have to have the courage to, to just keep going and believing that we're worth finding those friendships where people are ride or die and at the same time be willing to be that type of friend first. So even in what you're saying, what I'm hearing is there's a disconnect because the people that believe you are a ride or die are not people you consider a ride or die because they haven't shown themselves to have that same level and caliber of darkness, depth and intensity of the friendship. Is that correct?
- [12:52]
A
Maybe. I think I might have a different view on this.
- [12:56]
B
Let's do it.
- [12:57]
A
Okay, so I have a friend of mine known in 35 years and he's a spiritual friend to me. And I believe he's a confidant. I would say he fits two of these. I would never, ever call him on a ride or die position. Cause I don't think he has the capacity. And I would never. Me, I would never put him in that position. Right. You know, if he broke. If I broke down on the side of the road and I was in a city, I would call him, go, bro, I need a ride. Right. But I mean, like, that ride or die moment where, you know, something terrible has to happen, like, there's. At what level is that? Right? So he would never fill that gap for me. So when I look at him, I call him. He's number two out of the five, right?
- [13:43]
B
Yeah.
- [13:43]
A
So because you're saying, hey, they have to fit all five. I don't. I don't think that they do.
- [13:49]
B
No. I don't think that they do. I think just most often people who are considered rise or dies mentally are the people we're calling on not just for the middle of the night crisis, but the person we want to celebrate us. You know, to share the good news with. To share the bad news with someone to tell us the truth. That. Because they're literally doing life with you.
- [14:12]
A
Okay, I can buy that. I. But I. For me, I don't think. I don't think I align with everyone that way. And maybe I'm maybe, I don't know, just weird or different. I don't know.
- [14:21]
B
No, I don't. I don't think that's different. I think that's actually part of how men kind of see it differently. Because in a lot of ways, friendship has to have a utilitarian nature for men. And that is like. Well, I mean, you can give the perfect example of guys can go golfing and not talk to each other the whole time. And then you come home and the women are like, oh, my gosh, what'd you talk about? You're like, literally nothing. We just golfed. How is that even possible that you could do that? You know, there's this utilitarian nature. And I picked up on you even saying, I don't think that he could fulfill that role of that, you know, crisis. What I heard you say was, I think. Meaning I'm not sure if there has been a conversation about that regarding capacity or not. But that's just.
- [15:12]
A
I just know he doesn't. I know he doesn't have the capacity.
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B
Okay.
- [15:16]
A
You know what I mean?
- [15:16]
B
And what is the capacity based on, in your mind?
- [15:22]
A
Maybe his age? That has something to do with It.
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B
Okay.
- [15:26]
A
His. His risk factor, his. His physical capabilities. Like, there's. There's a lot of things like that, you know, And I think. I think everyone kind of fits in those lines.
- [15:39]
B
Yeah. It sounds like, in a way that the scenario you're thinking of, a middle of the night crisis is one where it's like, we're going to war.
- [15:48]
A
Yes.
- [15:49]
B
Okay. That's a great way to put it.
- [15:50]
A
That's a great way to put it.
- [15:52]
B
Meanwhile, somebody else could be hearing this middle of the night crisis confused because they're thinking like, no, like, what happens if my wife is going into labor and. And our car breaks down and we need some, you know, something. Not war. It's just like, need something fulfilled or something like that.
- [16:09]
A
Yes, yes. Maybe. Maybe my ride or die is like, to the line. Like, we went over the line, right?
- [16:16]
B
Yes.
- [16:17]
A
I'm glad we clarified that. Cause I'll share you something with you. So I have a woman friend in my life, and I think that's beyond my wife. Someone else beside my wife, and they're good friends as well. And I did a friendship audit about three years ago. Okay. I just went. I went through the people I text all the time, and I was like, where does this person fit in the five? Right? I did a friendship audit.
- [16:40]
B
Good job, Eric.
- [16:41]
A
Right? And I got goosebumps on it. So I, like, I literally sent people texts. I'm like, hey, I just want you to know this is the. I did a friendship audit. And you. You landed where I. Where I need you to be in this spot in my life. And so I went through my friendship list, and I did that. And then I sent this video. I had this reel. I couldn't find it before the phone call. I'm so mad. I was gonna send it to you. So I sent that reel to the person, and it was just a really deep, meaningful reel on Instagram, right? And so I was like, hey, you land in number three for me. I want you to know that. Send another reel to someone else. Hey, you land in number two. And number four, I want you to know that you're this person in my life, okay? And then I. And so this. This woman that's in our life, I said, hey, you're. You hit four of these spots in my life. You are so important to me in my life. And then. And then. So she sent back a message. I don't remember exactly how it went, but it was something like she guessed what I thought she didn't have, and it was the ride or die. Okay, okay. And the. And the way this message came across in the real. She sends me back a message. She's like, why am I not 5 of 5? I have a bat. And I was like, oh, shit.
- [17:59]
B
Wow.
- [18:01]
A
And so for Christmas that year, I got her a custom bat, and I put five out of five on it. And it hangs on her. Hangs on her wall in her studio. And so, like, you know what I mean? Like, that. That. But I did that friendship audit. It was such an important thing to me because I got a lot more I want to talk about that'll kind of align back with this. It's like, this is the core value.
- [18:22]
B
Yes.
- [18:23]
A
Like the. The five of five is the core value of how you let people into your life and you exit them out if necessary.
- [18:30]
B
You know what I love about what you did, Eric, is, I think so often we can just let the silence fill the gaps, and we don't actually know where we stand to other people. Like, part of what we were just talking about was you're realizing there's a difference between where someone sees you and where you see them. And it's because it's gone unspoken. Right? It's become based on expectations. And I love that you laid it out in a way where you said, hey, I just want you to know I see you, and here's the value you bring to my life. And I thank you for it, because you just. You just actually called them out and up into their potential because now they have a frame for how they can specifically be there for you, which they wouldn't have known otherwise.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah. Here's something really powerful. So she's the only person that questioned that she could be more for me. No one else said, oh, well, how come I'm not a five or a four or a one or a two? Like, no.
- [19:34]
B
1 question.
- [19:35]
A
She's the only one that said something.
- [19:37]
B
Is she also an eight, a challenger?
- [19:39]
A
No, she's a five.
- [19:41]
B
Okay, see, because that's some gumption right there. I love this.
- [19:47]
A
Yeah. So. But, you know, when I. When I reached out to my friend, I said he. He would not have the capacity to be a number five to me. The loyalist, he just doesn't have the capacity. When I told him where he landed for me on the two things, he said that. Thank you for telling me that. That's amazing. I'll be there for you when you need me. Like, it was. It was not anyone really told me. No one turned back to me and. And told me their numbers. Think. Think about that. I mean, I probably. I probably Send this message to 10 people, you know, like, that are really close and not anyone called me back. I don't know where I stand with them. Is that.
- [20:25]
B
How did I. I hate to like, make this sound like a therapist question, but I'm. I'm genuinely curious. Like, what did you feel when that, when you realize that I feel fine.
- [20:33]
A
It doesn't bother me at all. Not even in slightest. Not even the slightest. But I did have one of the guys I sent it to who's. Who's like, he's not. We're not friends anymore, interestingly, because I want to. We might have to dig into that a little bit. But I told him he's ride or die. He's still ride or die to me. I bet you if I called him right now or going to war, bro, I need you, he would probably be okay.
- [20:59]
B
Yeah.
- [20:59]
A
But he felt like that means. Oh, then that means you're my ride or die. But it's not. You make terrible decisions. You like, like, I will not be there for you in that darkness if you put yourself in that darkness out of your, you know, bad decisions. Right.
- [21:15]
B
Yeah.
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A
I'm not going to.
- [21:16]
B
Accountability is really, really important for you.
- [21:19]
A
Incredibly. Yeah.
- [21:20]
B
Yeah.
- [21:24]
A
Are you a contractor looking for growth training and to level up your. Your contracting business? If so, join the TWT Contractor Circle. It's our free Facebook group where like minded professionals go to share insights of success, strategies for growth, and a place to find some accountability. In fact, we have a powerful accountability call every Friday with a live Q and A session at the end. And whether you're seeking advice, collaboration, or just a supportive community, this is a place for you request to join today and start building a valuable connection with me as well as our amazing network of contractors. Tango Whiskey Tango. That's TWT Contractor Circle on Facebook. I'll see you on the inside. Now back to the show. So that, that was the thing with him and I had to have that conversation with him. He's like, okay, fair enough. I totally get it. I'm like, I will be your confidant. I will be your champion, your truth teller. I'll be your mentor. I. I will not ride or die with you because you, you abuse it. And I will never be for you in that capacity. And he was like. He's like, okay.
- [22:30]
B
You know, this is really interesting hearing your perspective on it because it's kind of opening my mind to a different type of lens to see friendship through. And it's actually one where I feel like you give more grace to the people in your life than maybe others do. Because you're coming at it where you're like, I'm not expecting you to be all of them. I have people that can fill certain gaps, and I think. I think. And I could use myself. I have been guilty of this before where, like, if I call you my best friend, you better believe you're in it with me now. Okay? Like, there's no going back. We are in this thing now. And I have projected, like, I expect you to be all of those things, or at least you have to reciprocate everything that I do or have done in these past defunct friendships that I used to have, and then it ended up being very codependent as a result of that, because I was expecting them to be me or I was unwilling to change, to accept them for being them.
- [23:41]
A
Yeah. So that's interesting, because over the years, this hasn't happened. Happened to me in a while, but there's people that come into my life, and, like, I. I don't know if I even say the word best friend. Like, yeah, what. What is the best. Like, the world's best cup of coffee. Like, you. You did it. You know, Congratulations. You did it. The best cup of coffee in the world. Like, the best is to me is like, why can't people be at the same level? Like, I have, you know, Navy seals that are all Navy seals, right? Like, they're all that. So, like, I have people that have come into my life and then called me their best friend, and I was like, oh, wow, I'm your best friend. But does that mean I have to be your best friend? Because I have friends that I actually like. They're better, you know? Like, can I call. Can I say that you're not my best friend? Because I have someone else who's already my best friend. No, like, we're all like, can we just line up? I don't know how to. I don't even know how to. I don't know how to.
- [24:42]
B
No, I know what you're saying. I. I have people in my life, too, that call me their best friend, and I'm like, okay.
- [24:49]
A
It's like. Like when someone says, I love you, you're not ready to say I love you yet. It's like the middle or what?
- [24:55]
B
Thank you. Yeah.
- [24:58]
A
They're like, wait, you didn't call me, like, you didn't say, I love you. Like, oh, man, it's. It could be awkward.
- [25:03]
B
That's so funny, because I've had a
- [25:04]
A
lot of people that have come into my Life. And, like, I wouldn't necessarily consider them besties yet, but, like, all of a sudden, someone else might say, hey, oh, I know your best friend. And I'm like, oh, who? And they're like, oh, so? And so I'm like, oh, I didn't know we were best friends.
- [25:17]
B
News to me.
- [25:18]
A
But now I know that they. They look at me in that capacity like I'm their best friend. But then when you go to. When you go to look at the statistics, 53% have one to four close, and then 39% have closed two or fewer. Like, yeah, that. It kind of. It kind of lines. Right. It kind of maps out. Right?
- [25:37]
B
Exactly.
- [25:38]
A
And, like, there's bro, I am. I'm a cool guy. Like, I know. Like, you know what I mean?
- [25:43]
B
I know. Yes, I do. Yeah. It's. It's interesting because I really think it all comes back to, are we discussing our own capacities with our friends and our expectations? And, I mean, you could be in a different season, too. Like, for instance, in my age group, like, I could be having a friend group that involves someone who's never been married, someone who's been divorced, someone who has three kids. Like, those are wildly different lives. And as a result, the capacities along with those lives are also very different. They show up differently and they change. Exactly.
- [26:21]
A
And you need them at different points of your life than. Than need or don't need. Right. I mean, that.
- [26:27]
B
Exactly.
- [26:27]
A
As awful as that might sound.
- [26:29]
B
Yeah. And there's this natural ebb and flow, and I think we get in our head sometime because we're like, oh, no. Like, there's this tension. Oh, we're drifting apart. And, you know, I could talk about drifting apart, but what people should know, and hopefully this will set you free a little bit, is that the average lifespan of an adult friendship is seven years, actually.
- [26:50]
A
That's rough. And I'm going to talk about that. Trust me. I got. Okay, I got a pile of notes here for you, but before I get on to the next, like, movement into this friendship podcast, let me introduce you, please. Okay.
- [27:03]
B
All right.
- [27:04]
A
So I met Zoe. Zoe Asher. I met her in Texas, right about. I don't know, it's like, two months ago, maybe a couple of months ago, we were at a conference together, sponsorship games with Justin Moore. And I'll tell you how I. How I saw you. I want you to know this. Okay. I don't know if I told you this, so I was in my game. I was in my clique. I got my homies. You know, one of Them was my brother. And our capacities are different too. I just want you to know. So I'm with my brother and one of my brand new friends. Like we, like, I've only been with that one of that one of those guys. I've only hung out with him like four times. And we are like, we click really well. It's crazy.
- [27:43]
B
Wow.
- [27:44]
A
Really crazy. So we're in our thing together and I'm very focused on what I got to get done and who, what I'm trying to accomplish. And we have our pod house going on all this stuff and we go out to film our content and I want to crush everyone. I want to compete. And I remember seeing you outside. Like I hadn't gone to too many tables, a couple close tables. I'd gone and introduced myself, said, hello, want to shake some hands, kiss babies. But when we, when we were outside, you and your crew went by, you were filming. And something about you as you walked by, I was like, oh, she's sassy. Like, I said that to myself. I go, she seems sassy. I don't know what you were doing right, but you were doing in your element, filming your content. And then after that, I came over to the table to say hi to you. And do you remember what I said to you?
- [28:33]
B
Well, you said something like, you seem like you're sassy, so we should be friends. Hi, I'm Eric.
- [28:38]
A
That's exactly what I said. And then it was really fun. And I remember this vividly. Cause you like popped up and you said, I am. And then, you know, like, I'm Zoe. And you put your hand out, shake my hand, we started talking and so that was a really fun moment for me.
- [28:52]
B
Yeah, me too. Because I have never had anyone call that out to be the first thing that they saw as an introduction. And I was like, you know what? I'm absolutely leaning into this. Okay. Someone finally sees me for me.
- [29:09]
A
So at that moment I was like, hey, well, what do you do? Why are you here? What's going on? You're like, I'm a friendship coach. And I was like, what? You're like, I'm a friendship coach. And I'm like, I want to be your friend. You know, like, I was like, I need to know more about this. So give us a little bit of background about friendship coaching and so. And then we'll dive into the rest of this.
- [29:27]
B
Yeah, well, first off, I loved meeting you there, Eric. And I think what I'm about to share is a, is a bigger heartbeat that I have had this past year. Because at sponsor games, the conversations that I had with men specifically about friendship really rocked me because I am a friendship coach. I have been a friendship coach for the past five years and I'll get into how that started in a second. But very rarely do men engage in conversations about friendship openly. And the vulnerability and desire for the guys that I met at sponsor games specifically to just jump into sharing, like, wow, your message is incredible. I need that. Why have I never thought of my friends like that made me realize, like, I just want. Because. Because there's a loneliness epidemic. But then there's like a male loneliness epidemic also that's happening and it's very serious and it is causing grave amounts of depression. And so because I know you have a male dominated audience, I just want, like men to know right now, if you're listening to this, that you are actually worth having and building rich, meaningful friendships. Like, this isn't something that's just for everybody else. And you, you aren't lucky. You don't have life. It's not for women. Like, doing life with men is a reality and it can be yours too. And I just want men to know that, that it's not like some weird thing. It's actually very normal to have a group of guys that you know deeply, you know each other's hearts. You aren't just hanging out, golfing. You actually do life with one another. Okay, So I just want to say that there. So my friendship story started in college. So for context, I was traumatically bullied in high school and I had no friends. It was very serious. The police had to get involved. It was a whole thing. So high school was a terrible experience. So I was so excited to go to college because I was going to rewrite my story. I was finally going to make friends. This was going to be amazing. And so I found somebody who was very similar to me in a lot of ways and, like, latched on immediately. We became friends, we became best friends, we became attached at the hip, we became inseparable to the point that I just decided not to build any other friendships. I was like, I got it. I got the person that's all five, okay. I don't need anybody else. Until we had a best friend breakup my sophomore year of college. And it was ugly. People took sides. It was a whole thing. And now I'm in this dreaded state of loneliness once again. Like, the thing that I was most terrified of is being alone again. And it was near the turn of the new year. I'd probably been in this state for three months, truly in a dark depression, my will to live was so low. I did not want to leave my dorm room. I didn't want to do anything. And I got up one morning, I walked to the mirror, looked at myself and said, I don't want to be lonely anymore. I have to do something. And so I realized that once I uttered those words, I would need to back it up with action. And so I decided to create a New Year's resolution to eat a meal with someone different on my college campus every single day and get to know their story. Because my hypothesis was, if I can start focusing on other people and, like, getting to know them, it will help me feel hope, it will help me feel joy. I won't be focused on myself anymore. And maybe through that process, like, I will find incredible friends. And so I ended up continuing this tradition until I graduated and got over 250 meals with different people on my college campus. And it was the most transformative experience of my entire life, because through that process, I learned the art of human connection. Asking meaningful questions. But first, deciding I don't want to be lonely, Deciding what type of friend do I want? Oh, am I that friend? Am I willing to be that friend? And am I willing to go first and stop waiting on other people to pick me to be in their life? And so that is how my whole passion for friendship and loneliness started, which ultimately brings me here today.
- [34:20]
A
Yeah, that's an amazing story. That was 250 that year. 250 meals that year.
- [34:25]
B
It was over two years.
- [34:27]
A
Okay. Yeah, that's. That's a lot of, like, awkward conversations. That's a lot of like, yes, walk up and be weird conversations. Did I hear it on your podcast? Maybe. Gosh, I might have quoted you on a podcast where I'm trying to figure out the context of it, where the conversation. Oh, gosh, hang on. I want this to come to me. Okay. It's the scar on the face. Do you know about the scar on the face? This is interesting. I don't know if this ties to the friendship thing now, but there was a study where someone, the doctor, put the scar on the face. It's Dr. Klubeck or something like that. Did you do this on your podcast recently?
- [35:11]
B
No, but I know which one you're talking about.
- [35:13]
A
Okay, so they put the scar on the face, and half the class has a scar on their face, and half the class doesn't. They go out and do these conversations with people they don't know. And then, you know, all the people that had this. This painted on scar felt like they were going to be. They were being judged. And people. It was awkward conversation, and people, like, looked at them differently. And then when they came back in, the professor talked to both. Both halves of the. Of the students. And then they. They told that everyone without the fake scar was like, yeah, I was there, fine conversations. It was no big deal. And then they were like, hey, let me touch this scar up so it doesn't crack and look funny when you go back out, they're gonna know it's fake. But then they actually took the scar off of the face and they sent them back out into the public. And then they had the same conversations. And the people that thought they had the scars actually still thought that they had these awkward, weird, judgmental conversations with people, even though they didn't have the scar on their face. And so this is that. Like, you basically had to go through that, but with your beautiful face. You didn't have the scar on there, but you went and talked to 250 people in two years and just walked up to people and had this awkward conversation. It's hard to do. People are terrified to do that.
- [36:24]
B
No, like, let me set the scene, because it was more awkward than you can imagine, because the first time I did it, I only knew their name. Like, I didn't really know anything about him. And I was like, hey, I know that you're in my communications class, but that's, like, all I know about you. Do you want to get lunch together so that we can get to know each other better? Like that. That's how weird I was. Wait, it gets worse, okay? Because I cut up three by five note cards in half. Cut them in half, and wrote down cue questions and shoved them in my skinny jean pocket, front pocket. Okay? So just, just imagine the scene, because I'm like, God forbid, there's dead space in the conversation. I'm gonna be ready to whip out one of those cue cards as it's sticking out like a goiter out of my skinny jeans. I mean, thank God I never had to use them. But I was like, that was really the most humiliating part was that I just walked in there and I was like, I got this thing, you know?
- [37:22]
A
Yeah, okay. Can I. This is the deep end podcast. You know that, right?
- [37:27]
B
Let's go.
- [37:28]
A
Do I have permission to walk the borderline inappropriate?
- [37:32]
B
Sure, let's do it.
- [37:33]
A
Okay, so you had these conversations. You're walking up imagine to men and women and saying, hey, my name's Zoe and I know your name's Jerry. So how many men and how many women thought that you were hitting on them and they thought, oh, yeah, I'll go out to lunch with you. Come on, Zoe.
- [37:52]
B
That's so funny. I mean, in my mind I think none. Like, because I was like, do you want to be friends? Like, which when you're in college, you're like, oh, I'm friend zoned. So there was like none of that for me from the very beginning. So in my mind I'm imagining none of them.
- [38:08]
A
But you're completely wrong. Well, at least, at least 30 something percent of the men and women both thought you were hitting on them.
- [38:17]
B
Well, there you have it. You learn something about myself today.
- [38:21]
A
You seriously do not believe that.
- [38:24]
B
Well, Eric, you also have to understand, this was a Christian college. Okay, so there was like, Christian people
- [38:29]
A
don't like each other in that capacity?
- [38:31]
B
No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, like, what's, what's the matter with you? I just, I just am thinking people were just assuming the best of intentions all the time.
- [38:40]
A
Oh my gosh. See, here's where that, where me being agnostic is like, look, you're like, you're too far. Like, of course Christians like to get romantic with people, you know?
- [38:52]
B
Yeah.
- [38:53]
A
Okay.
- [38:54]
B
All right, wait. This is so funny. I've never thought about this before. No, now I'm going to be like, wondering. I'm going to be writing down every single person I had a meal date with and be like, what were they thinking? Now, see, now I'm not going to sleep for the next week, thanks to you.
- [39:08]
A
I'm like, seriously?
- [39:11]
B
Okay, I really have never thought about it before. That's so funny.
- [39:15]
A
Contractors. If you're sick and tired of not making enough money, you might suck at sales and you don't even know it. Or worse, you suck at sales and you actually think you're to going good. Before you get upset with me. I sucked at sales too. And for a long time. Here's the difference. I pulled my head out of the sand and I forced the change. That's why I know what you're up against and how you too can turn things around for you and your family. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I got really uncomfortable. I trained hard. I studied books and podcasts, videos, courses, role playing. And I took guidance from mentors and coaches while spending thousands of of dollars. But trust me, it was all worth it. I mean, I turned my struggling company into a profitable seven figure construction business. I put together a List of the critical sales techniques that I use to flip my business from surviving to thriving. And I call it my contractor sales secrets. I want to share the list with you with no, no expense, just to get you moving in the right direction. It's my way of contributing and giving back to my contract community and the construction industry that I know and I love. The list is available to you@contractorsalesecrets.com I promise you, with these sales secrets, some grit and discipline, I know you can dramatically change your life. So stop what you're doing right now and go to contractorsalesecrets.com that's contractorsalesecrets.com. So this is a social awareness question because.
- [40:50]
B
Yes.
- [40:51]
A
Are you that awkward socially, or were you? I don't think you are now.
- [40:56]
B
Well, I surely worked through a lot of things, but here's. Here's what I've learned today. The reason I'm not going to say I was awkward is because when I speak around the country to people and give these talks about friendship and loneliness, I always ask the audience, who in the room feels like you're awkward when you meet new people? And every single time, every hand I can see goes up, which has led me to conclusively say and believe you're not awkward meeting new people. The concept of meeting new people itself is. Is awkward because our bodies are wired to protect us. So you're getting jitters. You're trying to scan. Are they a threat? What are they saying? What's their body like? Like, you're doing mental gymnastics when you're meeting somebody new, which is why it's creating this, like, sensation in our bodies. So I would say for a long time, I thought I was incredibly awkward because the concept of going up to a stranger and be like, hi, do you want to be friends? Is innately abnormal. Should it be? No, but.
- [42:11]
A
Well, we're afraid of. I mean, we're afraid of rejection. Like, you're afraid if you're gonna go meet someone. Like, if I was gonna go up to talk to a girl that I wanted to date, which I don't. I'm happily married for almost 30 years. But, like, come on, if they're gonna go up and talk to a woman they're terrified of hearing. No. Right.
- [42:27]
B
Yeah.
- [42:27]
A
And so, like, that goes to, like, hey, I want to be your friend. And like, that. That's weird. Why would you. Like, I got friends. Why are you trying to be my friend? Like, it's that fear of being that awkward moment. Right. Of rejection.
- [42:39]
B
Yeah. And I want to speak to that in what the studies show about rejection. But I think a really interesting part of this was not one time did somebody say, no, thank you. Every. Every single person I asked, hey, like, I'd love to get to know you better. Do you want to grab lunch tomorrow? Cuz all I know is your name, and I want to know, like, more about you. Yeah, Nobody said, no, thank you. Which made me believe a lot of this research about rejection, because I. I played it out in real life.
- [43:11]
A
Maybe it's because it was at a Christian. Christian college. And no one wanted to be mean to you.
- [43:17]
B
No, I mean, people are mean everywhere. I was just saying that as a. To be. To be funny. So two studies on rejection. One was done by Stanford. Stanford. Stanford. And it was a pretty complex study, but basically they found that people are 1.5 times less likely to reject you than we think they are. Okay, that's one part. The Gottman Institute did a similar study where they asked people, when you go up and talk to a stranger, like in a line or something, what percentage of the time do you believe that you would get rejected? And people said unanimously. 99% of the time, if I strike up a conversation with a stranger, I will be rejected. And then they had them go out and do it. And the results were the complete opposite. 99% of the time.
- [44:14]
A
I heard you talk about that on your podcast. Yeah, that's.
- [44:16]
B
Yes, a stranger would engage in conversation. And so it's like we are projecting this thing that actually isn't real because everyone wants to feel like they matter. And so when you extend an opportunity to someone, here's an invitation. Very rarely is someone going to be like, no, not for me. Will some people. Sure, that's a win in my book, because, okay, great. They let you know early, like, you can move on to the next person because you're not my cup of tea. And that's not someone I want to be friends with anyways if they're going to be that judgmental up front without getting to know my heart.
- [44:54]
A
Yeah. All right, Cool, cool. All right, let's go through a punch list. I. And each one of these punches could probably go down a deep, dark rabbit hole, but.
- [45:04]
B
All right, I'll be concise.
- [45:06]
A
I saw this one. I saw this one reel about friendship. And it was like, I always want the long version of your story. If I ask you, you know, yeah, what happened today? I always want the long ver version. And so that hit me hard because, you know, I do. I do deeply want to know Things about certain people at certain times. But because of my busy lifestyle and everything I got going on, sometimes I can't. I don't have the capacity for the long version. And sometimes people call me at 2 in the day. They're like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm working. Like, what's up? Are you okay? Is everything all right? Yeah, is everything okay? Like, oh, I just. I just want to see what you're up to today. I'm like, well, I'm working, bro. Like, I. I don't have time for your long story right now, you know, so, like, I do have that, but I, you know, contextually, like, hey, if it's the weekend, if we're out for a walk, if we're on a mountain bike ride, if we're doing something, I'll be like, hey, what's the story behind that? I want the long story. I do.
- [45:56]
B
Yeah, I know. I always want the long version of stories, and I will pull it out of people, but that's also when I'm face to face with somebody, and I will absolutely be like, no, give me the long version. Because people will often be like, long story short. I'm like, no, give me long story long. What you do? You walked in the door and.
- [46:16]
A
Yeah, I can see you doing that for sure. No, long story long. Please bring it to me.
- [46:21]
B
Yes, I need all of it.
- [46:23]
A
Okay, so I don't have these in any particular order, but so much like the golfing scenario, like, you'd go golfing with the guys all day. You don't know anything. So back in my youth, I would go skateboarding, and then we would go, like, these long trips. Yeah, like, and. But it was, like, very specific. You know, I'm like, early 20s, going on these skateboard trips, hopping into backyard swimming pools, hopping fences, you know, like, trespassing. Like. Like skateboarding. Right. We go on these long journeys. We'd go to the Haunted Hole. We'd go to these big full pipes. We would, you know, just, like, really cool stuff. I wasn't a. I wasn't the crazy skater kid. I was very respectful. I'm an eight personality. But so this one of the. One of the guys in my life at the time, he was even a little bit older than me. I was. I probably met him when I was 19. We skated together for maybe three, four years. And like, every single weekend, like, we'd go to the Nude bowl out in the middle of the desert, and we'd skate there all day long with clothes on. But we would. But we would go.
- [47:24]
B
Thank you for the context.
- [47:26]
A
Yeah. Okay. So we would go to. We, like, we would stay into the night sometimes we'd spend the night, wake up in the morning and skate and then go home. Like, we spent a lot of time together. And then when we would spend time outside of skating together, I was like, God, this guy fucking whines all the time. He's complaining. He's constantly complaining about stuff, you know, like, just, oh, God, whatever. So, like, I would be like, okay, you know, and then all of a sudden, we'd, you know, like, hey, where are we skating next weekend? And we would change the subject. Let's go skate here. Let's go skate there. Do you need new wheels? You know? Like, what do you need for the skateboard? You know? So as. As we grew a little older, we would hang out a little bit, and I was like, I don't really like this guy that much. Right. And so we. We didn't. I didn't see him for, like, 20 years. And that by this time, my son's skating. Okay. My son's 16 years old. My son wants to go skating. I go to this swimming pool park. Now they have him in parks. They build him in a park with a fence around them. You don't have to break the law. You don't have to trespass. You don't have to. You actually just, you know, you paid the $2. You go into, like. So we're in such a long way. Yeah. And I run into this guy again, and it was like, wow. It was almost like two peas in the pot again, like, oh, bro, what are you doing? I can't believe you're still skating. Like, this skate moment happened with us. It was really, really cool. We skated with my son, and my. My son and I went home. I skated with him the next weekend. He's like, hey, let's go grab dinner. I'm like, oh, yeah, Cool. We go to dinner. And then at dinner, I was like, no wonder I stopped hanging out with this guy. He's still the same person, whining and complaining and my wife and my job and my boss. I'm just like. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is. I'm gonna close the door on this again real quick. And, like, I just closed the door, and I don't see him anymore. I don't. I don't have time for that in my life anymore. Yeah, but three, four years, like, we were, like, probably 30 times a year every weekend. I mean, every other weekend or Something we would go on these trips. And so I don't. I don't feel guilty about that. But there's a really. It's a demonstration of what you exactly said about golfing all day and not knowing what happened. We talked about skateboard wheels. What do you want? You know, what would you talk about? Like, a new skateboard?
- [49:39]
B
Yeah. Like, yeah, it's. It's interesting because, you know, like, the more you grow up, the more you learn about, like, oh, I wonder what was going on there. Like, I wonder what's happening underneath all of this. Vanessa Van Edwards, who is from People. Me too.
- [50:01]
A
Oh, my God.
- [50:02]
B
I think her next book is going to include this, but she's done a lot of research on the three types of people that she uses as her frame. And this is what I really appreciate. So this is what I'm saying. Like, depends on the researcher what their frame is. There could be the five. You're talking about the three. I realize this one really resonates with me because she said there's three types of people. The victim, the healer, and the hero. And they're all centered in our self narrative and what we believe to be true about ourselves. So the victim is someone who, of course, life got them down. They cannot get back up again. They have just been dealt hand after hand, blow after blow, and they cannot rise from it. Now, that's what I'm assuming this friend was for you. And that's incredibly unattractive at face value, because why would you want to surround yourself with somebody who cannot rise again, you know? And so the next one is the healer, which sounds fabulous. You're like, wow, that's like, so great. But the problem with the healer is you believe that you have to be there for everybody else, and it could lead to burnout or codependency. So the actual best version of someone who is walking in continued growth is a hero, not a narcissist. Like, we're not talking about that. A hero means this is what happened. These are the decisions I made as a result of what happened. And here's what I decided to do next. Like, when you hear the. That's why we are so drawn to stories of every sports movie. You know, it's like, that was incredible. Look what they fought. They beat all the odds because it's this hero narrative. And that's the most attractive type of friend because you actually believe you're capable of changing your life, too, because you just watched them do it or you heard them talk about how they did it. Yeah.
- [52:11]
A
Do you think every personality type's capable of landing in each of those?
- [52:16]
B
Yeah, I do.
- [52:18]
A
Well, like a number two personality is. Is the healer. Like they want to help everyone. They want to, you know, be. Then they put out so much that they're not there for themselves. Like, I. I feel like a number two personality type on the Enneagram scale would be like they're almost, almost all landing in that spot. I mean, I don't know who's. I don't. I can see a lot of the other personality types falling in. In the victim.
- [52:44]
B
Yeah.
- [52:44]
A
And not, you know, not as many in the hero. Like, I feel like.
- [52:48]
B
Yeah. I mean, the Enneagram. Like, I know that when you had your guest on, you talked about how you can move in and out certain directions of your. Your Enneagram, like your wing. And so I think really, basically it's just a call to action of are you living in such a way where you believe that you are 1, 2, 3 decisions away from being in a completely different spot than you are now? It gives you that power and that autonomy that I actually get to control what happens next. I didn't get to control what fell in my lap, but I get to do what I'm going to do next.
- [53:25]
A
Yeah, fair enough. I can definitely see all the personality types with that. It's just their vision might be a little different than others.
- [53:32]
B
Definitely.
- [53:33]
A
They're still be a victim or they could still be a hero. I can buy that. I want to talk more about the friends cycling out of your life, the seven year thing that you talked about. I think that's, that's fascinating. And if I think about, you know, my life and the skateboarding guy, you know, we were together for four or five years and then we just disappeared for 20, got back together. But like, he hasn't grown at all emotionally in 20 years. I feel like I have, you know, like, I feel like I'm trying to get a little bit better every day and. But even back then I was still more like, you know, optimistic than he was. So it didn't. That's why we just kind of like drifted apart. If you will. Drift apart.
- [54:15]
B
Yeah.
- [54:16]
A
I did have a friendship breakup. Okay, friends for about a decade now, but from another state. So we didn't see each other as much, but we would text a lot and talk a lot. But 10 years I watched his kids growing up. His wife and my wife were friends. That was really cool. And he had more expectations for me that he thought I didn't match him. I gave you all of this emotionally. And you didn't match my energy emotionally. And I was like, was I supposed to, Like, I, I. I didn't know that. And here's the interesting thing, though, is because I looked at a decade of my life, you know, and being friends at that capacity, and when we were together, it was fun, and it was, you know, like, we had a lot of common interests in music, things of that nature. Our family got along. The kids got along. I have a son and daughter. They have a son and daughter. Everyone get along. Like, it's. It's like everyone gets along. But he got so upset because, you know, I didn't match his, let's call it, energy without getting into it. And then so he, like, exploded on it. It's like, we're done. And so I fought for it. I was like, wait a minute, bro. Like, let's talk about this, you know, And. And I'm like, I didn't steal money from you. I didn't, you know, get romantic with your wife. Like, I can see those two things as lines in the sand where this is over. But, you know, the line in the sand that you are. That you are, you know, dissolving this over is ridiculous. We need to, like, solve this together. So, like, I can't believe your line in the sand is as simple as this. I didn't stay at your house as long as you thought I should, and I went to see someone else on the way. Like, what the fuck just happened here, right? Decade. You're going to give it up like that?
- [56:16]
B
Yeah, because. Well, because it showed the fragility in which it was sitting on to begin with, which you found out only after you hit an invisible line, you know? And what I like about what you said, Eric, is that you said I fought for it because I think so many friendships end way before they should because two people are afraid to have the conversation about, like, okay, hang on, hang on, hang on. What were your expectations? What did I do? How did I fall short in your mind and then be ready to actually take ownership for it? You're right. I did not meet that expectation. I'm sorry.
- [56:57]
A
I felt like I did a good job at that. I really feel like I did.
- [57:01]
B
And that's what I'm liking, because I want to live my life in such a way where I know that at every turn, I threw all my chips to the center of the table because I don't want to live in regret of, like, I let my pride steal a relationship from me. You know? Like, I would rather like, let it all out. Apologies, ownership, humility, whatever is necessary. And then if it still comes to a rift where it's like I can't meet that expectation and vice versa, then then that's a different conversation. That's when it becomes clear, okay, it seems like we are going to have a different place in each other's lives. And I've had friendship breakups, like, recently, relatively recently because of a change of expectations. And the expectations were laid out like there were attempts to, like, reconcile. This is what I would be hoping for. This is what I would be hoping for. And unfortunately, both parties could not meet the other's expectations the same way.
- [58:15]
A
Yeah, it's crazy. And, you know, I think about this a lot. I don't dwell on it, but, you know, like, in hindsight, at the end of the relationship, I was like, if I think about this, you know, I remember he got in a fight with this other so and so co worker that he was real good friends with. Oh, he got in an argument with so and so that he started a business with, and they had to dissolve that. And then, like, he would come to me, me for advice and that, like, so I, in hindsight, I could go like, wow, it makes sense. I kind of saw it there.
- [58:41]
B
Yeah.
- [58:42]
A
But we just, I just didn't have enough of it to, you know, it didn't matter because there were so many other good things in the relationship with the families and all that stuff.
- [58:50]
B
So definitely. Yeah.
- [58:52]
A
Yeah, it was. So that was, that was an interesting one for me. And just so you know, the way I the way. Because this whole friendship thing is crazy. I think everyone needs a friendship coach.
- [59:07]
B
I agree.
- [59:08]
A
Because, you know, I mean, I don't know if I'm just tough and cold hearted, like, okay, fine, that's the way you want it. It's cool. Let's just. I'm just going to keep going. I'm going to go hero mode. Right. But many years later, he reached out to me with a carrot, but I didn't really. The carrot to me was not like, you know how we talked about the love languages and I heard your love language podcast. By the way, you didn't mention my name, which hurt my feelings, but that's okay.
- [59:35]
B
I'm so sorry. I'll go back and post.
- [59:37]
A
So. But he reached out to me in a. In that gift fashion. But I already told you in Texas, like, gifts don't mean a lot to me. But when.
- [59:49]
B
Oh, a literal gift, you're saying?
- [59:51]
A
Well, like, it could be a.
- [59:56]
B
It wasn't like the gift of time. It was a tangible item. That's what you're saying?
- [59:59]
A
No, it wasn't tangible. It was like, no, it was just like, hey, this happened to me. And I'm like, okay, cool. Like, he. He just thought it was like a care. Like his. His. His message to me was a gift. Like, oh, I'm reaching out to you. You should receive this as testing the waters. Yeah, my carrot, my gift. And I'm like, okay. And it didn't really matter to me. And I just like, kind of was. I wanna. I don't say flippant, but I was like a yes or a no or like, oh, cool. You know, I didn't go like, oh, let's gossip about it, you know, And I was just like, oh, cool, that happened to you. Cool. You know, I got work to do. I'm gonna go do this. I haven't talked to you in four years. Like, you don't have access to me at that level anymore. So, like, you know, I got these other things I'm doing. And then he got mad at me because I didn't. Wasn't more responsive to this gift of a message.
- [60:48]
B
Yikes.
- [60:50]
A
So look at if I bump into him at a convention or something like that. I'm totally cool. I am. No animosity. I'm like, hey, bro, what's up?
- [60:58]
B
It's cool.
- [60:58]
A
But people don't have. I already gave the second chances. I don't need friends like that, that close to me anymore. I got plenty.
- [61:08]
B
Well, especially if you're being tested the second round, then you blew it the second time because you didn't respond the way they were hoping. Instead of it being like, let's see. Because if there's gonna be a distance and a gap after that, you have to think about it. I hear Dr. John DeLoney speak about this often when it comes to, you know, like an affair happening in our marriage or something like that. But I think the same principle applies when there is a rift that drives a wedge in any relationship. You have to know that if you are going to continue that relationship, you have to gut the whole thing and rebuild it. Like, new foundation needs established. New expectations need established. New rhythms and communications need established. You can't just like, pick up and be like, here's a test. Let's see how they respond.
- [61:55]
A
That is. Got them.
- [61:56]
B
You know?
- [61:57]
A
Yeah. It's a tremendous amount of work. Hey, look at the sponsored sponsor magnets right there. Look.
- [62:01]
B
Oh, come on. Branding.
- [62:04]
A
Okay, so another one. Can I just keep going? I feel like you're right. Now you're my therapist. Come on.
- [62:09]
B
Oh, my gosh. I receive it.
- [62:11]
A
Okay, so someone else was in my life growing up with my kids. Okay. Like, and. And like, kind of a nanny situation. Thanksgivings, like, it was like family. Like, you're basically family. You're helping me raise my babies. It was a really. It's a really touching part of my life. And I. And I. When I think back about it, I love it. I don't regret it at all. But the man in this situation, I saw his core values, like, in a dark way that I didn't like, that I just felt like, were deceptive and deceiving and just. I'm like, I don't. That's not me, you know?
- [62:50]
B
Yeah.
- [62:50]
A
And I. I would push off, and I would push back. I'm an eight personality. So I didn't fight for the relationship as much as, like, hey, this is not cool to what you're doing right there, bro. Like, no, I don't think that's cool. You know, but he's like, oh, it's. It's not a big deal. And then he blow it off. And then it would go away for a little bit, and then something else would surface, and I would be like, wait a minute, bro. And it's interesting because I challenged him enough to. Where suddenly, like, you're not invited to Thanksgiving this year.
- [63:18]
B
Right?
- [63:18]
A
Right. And just like, oh, I'm going here instead. And it was. And it's like, I think part of the family, and we're still with. We still see each other. I still, like, see his wife. I'd hug her, like, hey, daughter, the grandbaby. Like, all of that is cool. Like, I don't have any animosity. I'm not mean about it. It's just like, you don't have the ability to get that close to me anymore because I see dark side that you can come out in people, and that won't happen at my place or around me, you know? And so, like, that relationship, I push to the side and, like, there's still a relationship. It's just not as close as, you know, it's not a Thanksgiving relationship. That makes sense.
- [64:00]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [64:02]
A
And. But. Cause I think core values are so important to me, you know, they always have been. I agree.
- [64:08]
B
Yeah.
- [64:08]
A
Character and honesty and, like, loyalty and, like, all those things really are important.
- [64:13]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I would actually say that the main situation I see when it comes to adult friendships genuinely having, like, we're separating. We can't do this anymore if it's not a natural kind of just trickling away, change of pace. It's because one person is deciding to grow in a certain direction and the other person is not. Or worse, the other person is growing in the complete opposite direction.
- [64:47]
A
Oh, that's true.
- [64:48]
B
You're talking about core values. Yes, because you're talking about core values. And not only are you growing, but when you're growing and focusing on. I want to become someone who's disciplined. What are you paying attention to more than anything else? Who's disciplined? Oh, if you're trying to, let's say stop swearing, not lying, like, whatever it
- [65:07]
A
is, that's not me. I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna stop playing.
- [65:12]
B
No worries. But I'm saying, like, what you are focusing on becoming better at. You are paying attention to how is this showing up in your world. And then naturally, your response is gonna be like, well, I wanna become less like that, therefore, I need to move away to move towards what I'm actually aiming for. So that makes complete sense to me.
- [65:35]
A
So you said seven years is very typical for people. I mean, is that just the cycle of people and their growth? And, you know, that's why there's so many divorces, because people are separating and growing in different directions.
- [65:46]
B
It could be. You know, it's research that was done in the Netherlands, and it basically was just to get a gauge on what is. I'm sure there could be a myriad of factors, but there is this thing, like, speaking just. I feel like nothing's ironic, honestly. But in the Bible, in ancient times, period, seven actually represented the number of completion, ironically. And weirdly enough. But I don't think that's ironic. I think it's just part of our rhythm of how we are in our human nature that has something to do with it too. So I can't answer that directly, but I just find it interesting that there are patterns that go back to ancient times that point to this too.
- [66:35]
A
So you. You mentioned the Bible. I know you're. I know you're very biblical. Right. And I had a couple of cuss words come out already. You know, I'm sorry, but. I'm sorry. I'm a contractor.
- [66:45]
B
I'm.
- [66:45]
A
Okay, okay.
- [66:46]
B
I'm not upset.
- [66:46]
A
Okay, cool. So one of my dearest friends. I shouldn't say dear friends. One of my dear friends. Let's put it that way. Okay. One of my dear friends in the industry. Yeah, he's. Yeah, Tier two. He's on the Dunlap. On the little bit.
- [67:00]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [67:01]
A
Be the third tier out, maybe the third.
- [67:03]
B
Okay.
- [67:05]
A
But I talked to him about coincidence. He's like, eric, there's nothing. There's no, no such thing as coincidence. You know, in biblical times, there's no such. There was no word as coincidence. It's a new word that, that we made up, you know, farther in our life. So everything, nothing's a coincidence. It all happens for a reason. And that's kind of like ironic. I was like, oh, she doesn't believe in the word ironic. So it's just like believe in the word coincidence. And the difference between the word ironic and coincidence is actually very similar.
- [67:33]
B
Yes.
- [67:34]
A
Right.
- [67:35]
B
Yep.
- [67:35]
A
So there's my. There's my biblical moment with you right there.
- [67:38]
B
Okay. I love it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that with me.
- [67:42]
A
Okay. What about, what about. They probably don't have this at Christian colleges, but I have this friend.
- [67:50]
B
This is going to haunt me the rest of this interview.
- [67:53]
A
Have this friend, like, literally, if he's not talking to you, he doesn't like you. Like, that's his way. Like he's razzing you and all this stuff. And so like, yeah, if you go around him, he's not. He's like, he's always talking shit to me. Always. Right. And then, then he's like, talk to the people next to me. Like, if I bring over. Right. But if he doesn't talk shit to you, he does not like you. I'm like, dude, if he doesn't say bad things to you and like you say he does like, it's because he doesn't like it. If he stops being mean to you, you need to be nervous. You should be worried.
- [68:27]
B
Trust me.
- [68:28]
A
How do you feel about that?
- [68:30]
B
I feel very certain way and I'm sure it'll ruffle some feathers, but I notoriously have been a sarcastic person much of my adult life and someone confronted me on it and it was a man that confronted me for context. Okay. A man that himself is a very sarcastic, cutting remark type of person, archetype of what you're saying. And he said to me, I just want you to know that when you say something, I take it seriously. And your words hold a lot of power in my life. And I just need you to know that when you make a remark like that, it actually hurts me. And I was like, pardon me, because I had no idea here I thought I was just like holding my own with you. And I have been actively trying to prune my sarcasm towards others out of my life as a result of that moment because I have just been really reflecting on, like, our words have power and our words have weight. And then I've been like, you know, digging into sarcasm a little bit and finding out that it really is the lowest form of comedy. It's like, it takes the lowest level of attention to. To say something like that, and it's much better. If you're going to use sarcasm, use it on yourself. But I am just. I'm not a fan of it because I think it creates this natural distance in your relationships. Because, for instance, recently I had a guy that I have been doing friendship coaching with, and he's an engineer. Okay. So, like, this whole thing is, like, how he's thinking about this. He thinks very analytically, very logically about things. And we were talking about this one friendship, and he said, he's always joking with me, and he's always razzing me that I would actually be embarrassed to tell him when I'm actually needing someone to speak encouragement in my life. I would actually be embarrassed. And so I said, okay, that's really important to address because I could guarantee that that guy has no idea that you actually feel embarrassed. He thinks he's creating, like, I'm the fun guy. You know, like, we're just. We're just having fun, but, like, not everything's fun. Like, people are hurting, you know, and. And it creates this gap for other people. So all that to say. I've tried to personally pull that out of my own life.
- [71:17]
A
Sarcasm is interesting. He's not sarcastic. He's more of like a raz. Like, I'm a razz you a little bit. And if I, you know, I had this one guy on my team that was just short, stocky. He was like this just stocky little.
- [71:31]
B
Yeah.
- [71:31]
A
He's like, what's your name? And he's like, oh, my name's Gabriel. He's like, ah, that's too hard to remember. You're no neck. I'm calling you no neck. And then it was kind of like they would laugh a little bit because, like, you're so strong and like, you know, like, you're like. Yeah, it was. It was done in a. Like, it was very funny. And even. Even he would laugh, right? The guy would laugh. And it was like. Like, it's because you're so strong. You're, you know, you're just so buff, you know, like, you don't have a neck. And. And it was just like. But that's the kind of thing. So it's not sarcasm so much. I don't know. But I know.
- [72:03]
B
I know what you're saying. You're right. It, like borders something else, but it's this teasing nature.
- [72:08]
A
Teasing? Yeah.
- [72:09]
B
I think that the Under. The undertone of it is, can someone actually feel like you are a safe enough person to hold information when it is actually serious and hold the tension with them? Or is that gonna be a joke too, kind of thing?
- [72:25]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this guy's. This guy's in his 70s now, but, I mean, I've known him for 15 years, but, you know. 15 years, but, like, for 15 years. It's just the way he was. And I know that's who he was before I met him. You know, he just. It's his whole life. It's his personality type. This is going to take me to a direction. So let me talk about him for a minute. Pat Casey. I just. I. I'd. Five for five now, like, I would ride.
- [72:52]
B
Pat and I are. Yeah, now Pat's gonna hate me.
- [72:56]
A
Like, no matter what, I'd be there for this guy. But. So I remember one time I walked up. I'm trying to remember the scenario, but I walked up to talk to him, right? And he was talking to someone else. And then I'm standing there and he's got this booger hanging out of his nose, right? It's like, just right there on the tip. And, like, Pat looks at me and I'm like, this. I'm like, like, waving at my nose, like, hey, get this. You know? And he's like. He like, does this, like, whatever, you know? And he keeps talking to the guy, and I'm like, he doesn't do it. And then I'm like, the guy who he's talking to, I'm like, jerry, bro, he's got a booger hanging out his nose. You didn't even tell him. What's the matter with you? What if. What if? Like, why can't you, bro? And I'm like, pat, get the booger out of your nose. This is bothering the. Out of me. And he's like, oh, oh. And he couldn't. He couldn't get it right. And like, stop, stop, stop. And I grabbed his head and I reached up and I grabbed the booger right out of my fingers and I pulled it out and I flicked it. Contractors. If you're sick and tired of not making enough money, you might suck at sales and you don't even know it. Or worse, you suck at sales and you actually think you're good. Before you get upset with me, I sucked at sales, too. And for a long time, here's the difference. I pulled my head out of the sand and I forced the change. That's why I know what you're up against and how you, too can turn things around for you and your family. I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I got really uncomfortable. I trained hard. I studied books and podcasts, videos, courses, role playing, and I took guidance from mentors and coaches while spending thousands of dollars. But trust me, it was all worth it. I mean, I turned my struggling company into a profitable seven figure construction business. I put together a list of the critical sales techniques that I use to flip my business from surviving to thriving. And I call it my Contractor Sales Secrets. I want to share the list of with you with no. No expense. Just to get you moving in the right direction. It's my way of contributing and giving back to my community and the construction industry that I know and I love. The list is available to you@contractorsalesecrets.com I promise you, with these sales secrets, some grit and discipline, I know you can dramatically change your life. So stop what you're doing right now and go to contractor sales secret. That's contractorsalesecrets.com and I literally said, remember who your friends are, dude. Don't ever forget who your friends are. And he was like, okay. And we went back to work.
- [75:36]
B
I have. I have no words for that.
- [75:40]
A
Zoe, Zoe. This is the type of friend I am. This is the type of friend I clearly be. Okay, I'm not finished with this one.
- [75:49]
B
You are a straight shooter.
- [75:50]
A
That's.
- [75:50]
B
That's becoming very clear.
- [75:52]
A
Okay, so one time I'm with Pat and his. He gets a call from his wife, and she's really upset, and I don't know, really know what's up. She's really. He's. They have a tough. They can. They can go at it, right? And I'm like, oh, this is. This is a little more than normal, right? And they hang up. And then we get back to his place to drop him off, and then I find out that it's their wedding anniversary and he forgot. He's like, oh, my God, I'm in so much trouble. I forgot. And then he went into the house, and I'm like, oh, I feel bad for him. So I'm sitting in the driveway and I pick my phone up and I'm looking at the date, and then I type it in. Pat Casey's wedding anniversary. And then I put in a reminder for five days prior to that for next year. And then Literally, a year later, five days before their wedding anniversary, it pops up as a reminder. And I picked up the phone and I called Pat. I was like, pat, what are you doing? He's like, what are you. I'm working. What do you think I'm doing? What's going on? You know, he's like, all rowdy like that, right? And I'm like, hey, take a deep breath. He's like, what? I'm like, Saturday's your wedding anniversary. I don't want you to forget this year. He went, oh, my God. Oh, my God. And so I literally call him five days before his wedding anniversary, and now he's like, I got it. I remember this year. Don't worry about it. But so, like, that's the type of friend I am. He will get that call for me for the rest of my life.
- [77:24]
B
I think you need to collaborate and put it in his calendar as a reminder that he doesn't do that.
- [77:29]
A
He's 72 years old. He doesn't care.
- [77:31]
B
Okay.
- [77:31]
A
He's.
- [77:31]
B
That's fine. Yeah, that's fair. Eric, I think that's. That's an incredible friendship move. And just. Just as a pro tip, if you're listening this far in the episode, I'm just kidding. Everyone is, because they're. I only got, like, enraptured by a conversation.
- [77:45]
A
34 people that even watch this podcast or listen to it, worry about it.
- [77:49]
B
Don't you worry about 34. Okay? So, no, here's what I would say is, like, a really incredible friendship tip is when someone goes through a traumatic or incredibly celebratory moment in their life. Anniversary, baby born, death of a family member. Put that date in your calendar as a yearly reminder and message that person every year. Hey, I'm. For instance, I just did this with a friend, and it's the fourth year in a row that I have texted her on April 22. And it's the same message every year thinking of and praying for you today. And she actually just says, like, thank you so much every year. But this year, she texted me and she said, I just want you to know that the fact that you actually have made this part of your rhythm every year means more than I can ever articulate to you because it reminds me that I'm actually not alone in my grief. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna keep doing this with everybody.
- [78:59]
A
Yeah, that's really special. I have a friend of mine, one of my. One of my fives. He's got two of the spots.
- [79:06]
B
Okay.
- [79:07]
A
I know he's He's. He, like, I know hummingbird means to about for his mom, you know, so sometimes I'll send him a picture of a hummingbird randomly. This. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the date, but, you know, Facebook's. One of the things I really like Facebook about is, like, you find out things like that. But I knew his Father's Day was there, that he lost his father many years ago, probably like almost 40 years ago, but he still, like, has these moments. And I remember I called him one day and I was just like, hey, bro, I'm thinking about you today. You all right? And he's like, yeah, I'm fine. You know, like. But I was like, hey, I know this is an important day. So I had this moment with him because Facebook. I didn't. I feel bad because I didn't mark it in my calendar so I could call him in the following year. Right. But I know that year that I called him on that it was very powerful for him. It meant a lot to him that I would recognize that with him and talk to him about it. So tell me a story about your dad. I really want to hear it.
- [80:02]
B
That exactly. Because we have this notion of, like, oh, they don't want to talk about it. It's uncomfortable. No, that's the very person that they actually want to talk about and want the freedom to say, thank God somebody actually wants to hear.
- [80:16]
A
Yeah.
- [80:17]
B
Because that's who I've been thinking about all day. And now I finally get to.
- [80:20]
A
And they're thinking about.
- [80:21]
B
And out of my body.
- [80:22]
A
They're thinking about the moment they got in trouble. They're thinking about the moment that they got encouraged. And you know how. Yeah. I mean, those are the. Those are the really special moments.
- [80:31]
B
Yes.
- [80:32]
A
Not too many people do that, huh?
- [80:34]
B
No. And that honestly just shows a level of intentionality in how you pursue the friendships in your life. Eric and I. And I really appreciate that because I really think that is what's becoming clear through this conversation, is that it's not a one and done thing. It's an active pursuit. Like, any type of relationship is in your life. Like any type of health or fitness is in your life. This is your social fitness. This is your social health. And that's actually the quality and depth of the friendship in your life has been what Harvard has conclusively found after the world's longest study. 85 years is the key to living the longest and happiest life ever.
- [81:14]
A
Friendship. Yes. Well, there's one of those. They call it A centennial, whatever. Like, Right. The people that live the longest, 100 years or something. That's Loma Linda, which is only Loma Linda is a blue zone, and that's not too terribly far from me. But, you know, they study that, and it's about friendships and community and those kind of things. Yeah, for sure.
- [81:32]
B
Yeah.
- [81:32]
A
Yeah. We have to be better friends so we can live longer.
- [81:36]
B
That's what I'm saying.
- [81:36]
A
Right. Okay.
- [81:38]
B
Yes.
- [81:38]
A
Do I have time for more stories for you? And I. And I want your feedback to these stories is. Is so crucial. It's so important, and I want to know how you feel about this. So I learned something from Gary Vaynerchuk probably over a decade ago, for sure. Okay.
- [81:53]
B
Okay.
- [81:54]
A
And he. He basically said, I don't remember. I'll paraphrase. I don't remember what. It was a long time ago. He says, when it's someone's birthday, don't just text them, hey, bro, happy birthday. Like, pick up the phone and call them. Like, it'll mean a lot. And I know. I learned that from Gary, long time ago. And I've made it. I've made it a part of my life, you know, since then. And, you know, and it's on my birthday, I would get texts all the time, you know, or you go to Facebook, and there'd be like 200 people go, hey, happy birthday. You know, like, just because Facebook says, hey, it's friend's birthday, just push this button and I'll tell them happy birthday for you. I'll send him a balloon or something. And so people are just so, like, oh, cool, it's so and so's birthday, Zoe. It's your birthday. And, like, you see these things, right? But I started calling people on their birthday, and I have two stories behind this. One is. Well, it gets more and more. Like, I just called someone like, a month ago. He's like, oh, I was expecting your call today, because, you know, it's. I do it a lot, right? And truth be told, Facebook tells most of them to me, but I do have some that are programmed in my phone. But I did one to a very important man in my life. He's in his 70s, and I called him for, like, five years in a row. Facebook told me every single time, wake up, Facebook. Oh, it's so and so's birthday. Call him. And he was expecting those calls. And one year, I forgot, and I don't see him. But once or twice a year, I go. I go out to see him, and I found out he was Upset with me because I forgot to call him on his birthday.
- [83:24]
B
Wow.
- [83:24]
A
And he was upset about. He was upset with me about something else. And he brought that up. And I didn't go, like, you know, like, I didn't fight it. You know, I mean, I'm very respectful. He's. He's one of my elders. Right. And I would say a mentor and veteran, like, all these important things, and I didn't want to fight it. I just was like, wow, this is such a powerful moment that that phone call meant that much to him. And I. I missed it on Facebook. I didn't have it in my calendar. It was just by happenstance that I'd called him all those times. But I, of course, put it in my calendar now.
- [84:00]
B
Right, right. Yeah.
- [84:02]
A
And. And when I call him on his birthday, he's expecting it every time, you know, and if I. If I. It was such a powerful moment for me to know that it was that important to him.
- [84:13]
B
Yes.
- [84:14]
A
Yeah.
- [84:14]
B
Yes. No, No. I love this. And I actually give this exact example in my corporate talk on building relational wealth and how my dad was a chiropractor for 40 years. And cyclically, every work night growing up, I remember the same thing happening. He would come home from work, he would walk away into the dining room, and he'd be calling two to three patients after work every day. And he was always not talking to them. Like, rarely was he actually talking to them. He was leaving messages because they wouldn't pick up. Hey, Stephanie, this is Dr. Lou. I'm calling you. Cause I know it's your birthday today. I'm so glad you didn't pick up. That must mean you're having the time of your life. Just know that I'm thinking of you today.
- [84:59]
A
Oh, my God.
- [85:01]
B
But he retained 80% of his patients for their lifetime of chiropractic care.
- [85:09]
A
What a great story.
- [85:10]
B
And I'm like. I think it's because of that. Because it was so human, like texting, happy birthday, putting it on a Facebook wall. That's fine. But guess what? You're getting lost in the slew of messages. It doesn't stand out. It doesn't show. Hey, you actually matter enough that I wanted to take two seconds, two minutes out of my day to call you personally, unless, you know what you mean to me. Makes a world of a difference, as seen by that story you just said.
- [85:41]
A
So one more story to this. Well, maybe a couple more to the birthday thing, because I think it's so powerful, so impactful. But I. I saw someone that. That I know in my. My industry, never. We were never like great friends or anything, but we'd see each other. Hey, bro, what's up? You know, that kind of thing. Yeah, it was his birthday and it was late, and I'm like, should I go for it? Texas, right? He's in Texas.
- [86:02]
B
Yeah. Yeah, man.
- [86:04]
A
It's. It's probably like almost 8:30 over there. It's probably out of line. I'm going to go for it. And I boom. I go, phone. And he answers the phone super, like, low. Like, hello, Like. Like sounding depressed, bro, what's up? What's up? I'm. Dude, I know it's so late that I call you. Too late. I am so sorry. I realize I called you late. I apologize. Is this. He's like, no, it's cool. What's up? What's going on? And I was like, you know what, bro? It's. I know it's your birthday. I just wanted to hear your voice today. And I called to say hi and silence. Okay. The guy almost starts crying. He's like, you're the only person that called me today. Thank you.
- [86:48]
B
Wow.
- [86:49]
A
It was so heavy. I was like, holy crap.
- [86:55]
B
Wow.
- [86:57]
A
And maybe that's 12% with zero friends and.
- [87:02]
B
But it's the. It's the fact that you almost didn't do it because you're like, it's maybe too late. You actually didn't let the story you were writing for yourself of like, oh, he probably won't answer. It's probably too late. Like, you didn't answer for. You let him answer. And then he literally did answer because you took that risk. And. And now you're like a hundred out of 100 times. I'm going to take that risk again.
- [87:24]
A
It's crazy, right? It's these little moments. It's these little thoughtful things that, you know, maybe that's why everyone wants to be my best friend.
- [87:34]
B
Probably. I guess. I think. I think you're my best friend now, Eric. I think that's what I'm hearing. Yeah.
- [87:39]
A
Oh, you stop it.
- [87:42]
B
No, but. But it really. I mean, especially as we're in this age of AI the more you can be as human as possible to the people you care about. Absolutely. The better it will be. And just communicating as a human, too, like, we don't all need to act like robots and we don't have emotions and we can't show, you know, stuff on social media and pretend like this is all rainbows and sunshine. It's like, why not invite people in? What I have found and the science reflects this too, that when you ask people for help or you ask someone for advice, they feel a bond to you. There's emotional buy in because now they get to play a role in your story. We are wired to feel like we have a purpose. Like the. You're talking about blue zones and stuff, but the tightest tribes they have found through research are the ones where they are constantly asking each other for help. And you know what that takes? Humility. Dropping your pride, Drop your ego. Dropping the facade. Dropping your ego. And on the other side of that is the richness. Richness and depth of friendships that we're all searching for.
- [89:00]
A
What is it about? What is it about, you know, the five people you surround yourself the most with? You know, you become Mike. Right. So why, why is it that, you know, when someone wants to, you know, elevate, get to the next level, grow, you know, they want to be in rooms with, you know, people that are smarter than them or maybe more wealthy than them. They can give them more. So, like, I want to be, you know, I want to level up. So what's wrong with that? Zoe, you've changed. You've changed. Well, yeah. Good. I'm trying to get better. Like, you don't want to grow with me growing the opposite direction. Like, can you speak to that? Because I think it's. I think a lot about that.
- [89:41]
B
Yeah, I think it's. I think it's interesting because usually that statement when someone says that, it's a mirror because no one's like, you know what? You've really changed. Like, the tone tells you everything. They're thinking you've changed. What, you're mad that I didn't stay the same and that I refused to be a victim of my circumstances and that I just decided to grow amidst an inside in spite of what came my way. That's what you're talking about. You know, it's like we're two questions away from getting the real answer. What do you. What do you mean by I've changed?
- [90:13]
A
That's a great.
- [90:14]
B
Is that a good thing?
- [90:15]
A
Yeah.
- [90:16]
B
What, what's behind that? I think I have changed. Hopefully for the better. What do you think? Well, I don't know about that. I mean, now you have an open door. Oh, okay. So it seems like how you're receiving me is that I am this, this and this. Is that true? Well, I didn't say that. It's like you can, you can corner people unintentionally, just like naturally of like. Tell me, tell me more about this. What is it that's making you upset about my growth right now? And usually at the bottom of it, we find out it's because they don't actually believe they can do it themselves.
- [90:57]
A
Yeah, it's like a. There's that jealousy thing, right? You want that friend in your life that you can say, hey, look what I just accomplished. And they're like, congratulations. Like, what's next? You know, like, that's what you want in your life, right?
- [91:08]
B
Yes.
- [91:10]
A
Instead of that person, it's like, you've changed, right? Well, yeah, I have. I worked really hard to make that change, you know, like, so.
- [91:18]
B
Yeah. And I want to say one more thing on this, because I think this is kind of important. Oftentimes people hear that from their family after they've been gone for a little bit. They've been focusing on becoming better. And. And I think, you know, this language of, like, I'm breaking generational curses, you know, I'm ending the cycle. You know, that's. That's really, like, you know, very normal, like, fun language used nowadays. But, like, a lot of people really are focusing on that. They're realizing something has been in their lineage. They do not want to continue. They're making conscious choices, and often they are choosing to become a different person. Therefore, they actually have to stop hanging around those people. But I want to share this story that doesn't often get addressed, and it's actually in the Bible. But there's a reason I'm sharing it because it's to encourage people. Whenever Jesus started his ministry, he was 30 years old, okay? So he was like a normal dude for the first 30 years of his life. And when he went back to his hometown, nobody believed this was the same guy. Like, they were like, he. Obviously. That's obviously not him. Like, that can't be real. And it says in Scripture, a prophet is without honor in his hometown. And so oftentimes when you are making a drastic change in your life, I mean, he experienced it himself. The people that will leave you last are the people that saw who you were before. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just a thing. And it could be a good indicator, too.
- [92:53]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That's heavy. That's really heavy. Got me thinking about this one. Let me get this note here. Got me to think about, like, customers. Customers become. I think I want to be careful how I say this. I'm sure I have a couple customers, a couple friends. Listen to this. But, like, customers become friends faster than friends become customers. Right? So like, you know, a lot of times when I go to buy something from an entrepreneur, that's that, you know, I want to support. Like, they're like, oh, let me give you a discount. I don't want your discount. I'm going to pay you up. I want you to win. I want you to put your kids through guitar lessons. And I want, like, I don't need a discount. I want to just. Let's just take care of each other. Right? And so, you know, I. It's. It's interesting to see that friends, you know, that customers become friends faster than friends become customers. Right. Speak to that, because that's. That's kind of what you're saying. It's in the. It's in the same thread, I think.
- [93:54]
B
Yeah. Well, you know, if we go back to our original five, we're talking about, like, it's because those customers, like, believe in you. Like, they're actually putting their self into one of those five categories before your friends are, because they're like, no, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I know the quality of your work. I support you. And then because they support you and they've already bought in, now emotionally, they want to play a role in your journey. So I think that's part of it. And, I mean, Alex Hormozi talks about this all the time. He's like, pay full price for all your friends stuff.
- [94:28]
A
Yeah.
- [94:29]
B
Like, you want to actually champion your friends. Say, actually, dude, don't you dare give me a discount. That I would be insulted for you to think that I don't believe in you enough, that I should pay full price. That's crazy.
- [94:44]
A
Yeah. I love me some Alex for that, man. He's so good at it. I just love him to death.
- [94:49]
B
I agree.
- [94:50]
A
And you know what's interesting is because there is that threshold, because when. When they do become the friends, sometimes then I'm like, oh, I don't want to charge you. I feel bad about it. And then there becomes. There's some weird tension there. But I actually. It's. It's so weird. But I do have. I have a handful of customers. I literally will say, I love you. Hey, I love you. I'll see you later. Boom. Hang up the phone. I literally have customers. I do that, too, and it's authentic. I'm not saying that because I want to be clients for life because I stopped charging, you know, like, I'm not making any, but, like, it's. It's rough. It's rough.
- [95:22]
B
Yeah. I. I think we have to get a lot more comfortable with the concept of being generous. And I want to redefine generosity because oftentimes I think when we give, we're giving hoping we can control what happens on the other side of that gift, too. Like, for instance, you heard the circumstances where it's like, oh, I can't give to homeless people because they're going to buy money for drugs. So you cannot help them at all because you are going to be supporting their drug. Like, what are we talking about? Talk about a reach. You know, I, someone told me this. I did a mission strip to skid row. Okay?
- [96:08]
A
Like L. A.
- [96:10]
B
2010. Yes.
- [96:11]
A
Okay.
- [96:12]
B
And, and this was the exact example a guy brought up because he used to live in skid row. He cleaned up his life. And he said, when you give, you are also giving up control of what happens next. And I had never thought about that before. And every time I see a homeless person now, for instance, I'm giving them money. I'm like, you know what? That's not up to me. My heart was in the right place, and I want, like, how dare I try and control what they do with it and put parameters around it? But I think we, I think we see generosity the same way. Like, are you serious? After all I've done for you, that's how you're gonna treat me? You know, like, the voice changes. It turns into a whole thing. It's like, oh, so this was a reciprocity type of giving. So you were actually giving just hoping to get something in return. Like, what if we got to the point where we're so confident and comfortable that actually we believe just by giving, that's actually the fulfilling part. Like, I gave someone the gift of my time today, and that made me feel part of something bigger than myself. I gave someone the gift of my attention, my listening ears. And guess who gets a win out of that. Me. Because I now feel connected to my friend in a deeper level. I don't, I didn't need anything from them. I just got to play a role in their story and their life. So I can go on a whole tangent about generosity, but those are my first thoughts.
- [97:38]
A
You know, I, I, I have an employee. He's got, I don't know, five, five kids, wife, you know, and his wife works and he works, and he's always got the worst boots. He's just got these bargain basement, you know, like, Walmart boots, you know, And I know his feet are bothering him sometimes. And, you know, some, like, I've gone out, we've I've just taken the whole team to boot barn before. Walk in with 12 guys, everyone gets, you know, a pair of boots. And he's usually. I've only done that with him and the whole team a couple of times since he's been with us. But there was a time when he was just doing really well and his boots were just bad shape. And I pulled out 250 bucks. Because a good pair of boots is 200 bucks, right?
- [98:24]
B
Yeah.
- [98:24]
A
And I'm like, bro, please go to boot part on your way home and get whatever you want. And I said, I really want you. Go to a boot barn. Will you please do that for me tonight? He's like, okay, I will. And I gave him that money. And the next day, he came back with some Walmart boots, because I know he probably had to buy, you know, some shoes for one of his five or three of his five kids.
- [98:46]
B
Yeah.
- [98:46]
A
And I wasn't upset. Like, I really wanted to give him that gift of a new pair of boots that he could be proud of and that would last longer, but he, you know, and I wasn't mad about that. That's that gift of, like, once you give it, it's beyond your reach. Right, right. That was pretty neat.
- [99:02]
B
And a lot of people wouldn't have responded that way. Are you kidding me right now? I literally told you where to get your boots, and you didn't even. Expectations, the audacity. So you don't respect me. You know, it's just like, oh, my gosh. Like, we have lost the plot of what generosity is. Yeah. And there's this ancient proverb that I. That I often quote, and it says, your gift will make room for you. And it's talking about a literal gift. And. But I don't think your gift needs to be tangible. Like. Like I was talking about gift of your time, gift of your talents, gift of your listening ears. Like, it will make room for you. Like, it will open doors. We don't need to worry about. Is this person reciprocating. Because if we're expecting someone to reciprocate the exact same way all the same time, then we're actually expecting them to be a clone of us. And if we're expecting a clone of us, then we're actually going to end up creating a clone of us on AI and then we're going to outsource the relationship to AI and that's just too dangerous of a line for me.
- [100:03]
A
Too dangerous.
- [100:05]
B
Yeah.
- [100:05]
A
Okay. I'm gonna get you with one final thing, so.
- [100:07]
B
Okay.
- [100:08]
A
Back in My other lifetime. Gosh, this could go down a deep, dark spot. I was married before. I'm married to my. My one now. Right.
- [100:18]
B
Okay.
- [100:20]
A
And you know, when you marry, like, my wife's my best friend. Like, my best. If you're just like, hey, who's your best friend? And be like, it's my wife. Yes. Right.
- [100:27]
B
Yeah.
- [100:27]
A
And I. And there's no shame in that. Like, I. There's no, like, oh, I don't hurt someone's feeling. Boom. My wife's my best friend.
- [100:34]
B
No.
- [100:35]
A
And the interesting thing is I've always been this way. So, like, I was married to someone else, and at that time, she was my best friend, my best female friend. And I also had my best friend friend. But we're going to get dark right now. God. Hope you have time for this. You have to go to the girls room real quick.
- [100:51]
B
No, I'm good.
- [100:52]
A
Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm married to this woman at the time, my best friend. My. My male best friend and business partner. Pretty. Pretty pessimistic, kind of negative guy. And there's a long story to that. I have a really cool podcast. It's called How Pessimism Helped Me Become the, you know, the best Pond builder and, you know, in my. In my industry. Right. So I learned a lot from this man, but he was my best friend.
- [101:17]
B
Okay.
- [101:17]
A
He told me something incredibly dark that he had done in his life, and I thought, wow, that is super dark. That's.
- [101:26]
B
I don't.
- [101:27]
A
I don't. I really have a problem with this right now. And we. We would fight a lot. And I was like, this is a problem. This is a core value issue. But I was only 21, so I didn't really, you know, we were living together, we had a house together, we had a business together. I was like, how do I. How do I reconcile this? Right? And I chose not to tell my wife at the time about this dark moment that I knew about this guy. And I just felt like she would be like, we gotta get the hell outta here. We should move. And I was already knowing that this is the direction I needed to take, but I needed more time. I didn't have the resources. I needed time to make the move. And within a certain amount of time, you know, my wife and I had a little struggle, and our business partner, we always fighting with him about stuff, and they ended up together. And it's the craziest thing, because. Is this ironic? Is this a coincidence? What is this? My biblical buddy, My biblical friends would tell me, this is not A coincidence. But had I told her about this dark moment, I guarantee they would have never been together. And so did I let that relationship down because of that, or is it because, like, was it supposed to happen that way? And then, boom, now they're together and I leave and I was friends with my current wife. At the time, we had already been friends and at the time she was married to someone else and they ended up splitting up. And then we found our path and, you know, we're married and let's hopefully happily. Happily ever after kind of moment. But yeah, it's that dark moment of like, I didn't say something and then they got together and that. Insane.
- [103:16]
B
Yeah. I mean, first off, I'm so sorry that happened to you. That is incredibly.
- [103:20]
A
Maybe, maybe not. You shouldn't be sorry. Well.
- [103:23]
B
Well, the pain that you had experience was tough. Yeah, No, I. I can imagine. Here's what I would say is I've found in my life that you could do everything right and someone else could still make a decision to do something else and ruin your life as a result. Like, you could literally be the perfect husband. And, you know, I know nobody is, but I'm just giving this example. Like, you could have told her this and she and him still could have made decisions that they did. And so I don't. I think there's no use in living in regret unless it's personally something you, you and your actions could have done. Because, like, you saying something doesn't change what could or could not have happened because he confided in you for a reason. I actually really respect the fact that you did not share it. I think that was the right call. As heavy as it was, if there was a situation where you felt like you were in danger and then, like, I think you have good discernment on it is what I'm trying to say, Eric. And you're a protector, you know, like you were trying to protect as many people with the knowledge that you had. And the reason he told you was because he didn't believe you would tell anyone. Now, is it interesting in marriage because you are one when you're married and all of that stuff. Sure. And I think it's a case by case nuance situation. And going back to your best friend comment, Arthur Brooks, who was the Harvard happiness professor, has revealed research that from years two to six, the lead indicator of what will make a marriage last is how close of friends spouses actually are. So you saying, like, that's my best friend, like, that's not weird, that's actually normal. And I think it's so silly that we're like, oh, you can't say your spouse is your best friend. It's like the person that you're living with and spending all of your. You shouldn't say that. What exactly should it be based on? Looks that are gonna change? You know, that's, that's silly. Like, so I just, I just wanna encourage you in that I think you made a difficult call and I think that there is nothing to live in regret about because you still could not make decisions for other people. You can wash your hands saying, I lived in integrity, doing the best that I could with what I knew at the time.
- [106:21]
A
And that's the truth. I mean, I feel like I made a discerning decision right there.
- [106:25]
B
Yeah.
- [106:25]
A
And it just, it went sideways. And the reason that I went to that dark spot because I wanted to say that my current wife of almost 30 years, like we were friends for 30 years, three or four years. I probably knew her five years before, you know, there was any romance involved.
- [106:44]
B
Yeah.
- [106:44]
A
Right. So like when I would see her, it would be like, oh, hey, how are you doing? What's up? And you know, we would. We had some things in common through the pet trade industry. And so it was like very easy to talk to. And so like, it was like then when the, when the opportunity rise, it was just like. It was a no brainer, right?
- [107:02]
B
Yeah.
- [107:02]
A
It's just crazy.
- [107:03]
B
That's awesome. Congratulations, by the way. 30 years is quite a feat.
- [107:07]
A
It's not a coincidence.
- [107:09]
B
Definitely not. You've been working hard for that thing.
- [107:13]
A
Oh, man, I am so thankful for your time tonight. I just, I feel like I could probably talk to you for another two or three hours, but I might want to reserve me too another couple of episodes down the line with you.
- [107:25]
B
I would love to do that. Let's do it now. Not soon. Soon's not a day in the calendar. Let's lock it in.
- [107:31]
A
My dogs are literally going crazy in my room right now. They're dying to eat dinner right now. I would go on, but I got to take them downstairs and feed.
- [107:39]
B
Oh, that's so funny. Well, do it for the dogs.
- [107:43]
A
Come here, come here. Come up here. Look at my dog. Come here. I got a 16 year old lap.
- [107:48]
B
Come here. Oh my gosh.
- [107:51]
A
This is Valor, my new pup.
- [107:53]
B
Oh, hey, buddy.
- [107:56]
A
And they're, they're going crazy right now. It's well past dinner time and my best friend is supposed to be cooking for them downstairs and so something must be awry.
- [108:06]
B
Oh, my gosh. Okay. Hey, this was a pleasure, Eric. Thank you so much.
- [108:10]
A
Listen, how do people become better friends? What's the best thing that they can do?
- [108:14]
B
Figure out exactly what you're looking for in a friendship. Write it down, literally. I want someone who's trustworthy. I want someone who will be there for me. I want someone who can change. Write down your whole exhaustive list. And then do the really hard thing of asking yourself, honestly, am I this type of friend? Am I the friend that would drop everything for anyone else that I'm expecting? Am I the friend that actually, when someone tells me something in confidence, I'm keeping it close to my chest? Because if we're not willing to first embody and become the type of friend we're looking for, then how dare we throw an expectation on somebody else to be something we can't even meet? And then once we work on that and we focus on embodying and becoming that, then go first, because that becomes magnetic. That's how you find your people, is because you become your people first.
- [109:08]
A
That's great stuff. And I want a mic drop right there, but I can't. I can't. I cannot do it. Zoe, tell me about this. How can I ask how old you are?
- [109:21]
B
I'm 34.
- [109:22]
A
You're 34? Where did this love and infatuation for Michael Jackson come to me? What is going. How can you move like that? How can you. What are you. I mean, if you. Listen, everyone needs to go to Zoe's Instagram right now and see 9 million views of her doing crazy. This amazing Michael Jackson routine in this unbelievable dress. What a great video. And I know. I know you recently just went and saw the Michael show.
- [109:53]
B
I sure did.
- [109:54]
A
Yeah.
- [109:54]
B
I loved. I ate it up. I loved every bit of it. But here's the. Here's the long and short of it, because I know we have to go. But basically, When I was 11 years old, I was watching Reading Rainbow. LeVar Burton went to Madame Tussauds Wax Museum. They were focusing on Michael Jackson's wax figure. All of a sudden, they cut to the clip of Michael Jackson moonwalking at the Motown performance, his iconic Billie Jean Performance, 1988. And I. I stood there stunned. My jaw locked. It hit the floor. I was just glued to the couch, thinking about what I just saw. And for the next week, after school, I would go upstairs to my bedroom and just visualize and try and embody what I thought I saw, like, on the screen. Okay. And then, like, after a week, came home from school, did a couple runs. I was like, okay, I think I'm ready to show my mom. So I go downstairs and I'm like, hey mom, does this look good? And she's like, does what look good? I was like, just hold on. And I do it. And she goes, that's the moonwalk. And from that moment on, I was just devouring every Michael Jackson music video. And so I was a self taught hip hop dancer. I just watched him growing up and learned how to dance by because.
- [111:16]
A
Well, not because. Only because you saw the experience and saw how cool it was. You watched it happen. Right. But then for your mom to show that kind of enthusiasm, it was just like, oh my gosh, I want to do more of this. I like when my mom does that reaction about me.
- [111:30]
B
Right, Exactly. And it was that day that I realized I am a performer because of how my mom responded. Yeah.
- [111:38]
A
Oh my God. Thank you for sharing that. What? How do people find you? How do they connect with you? How do they get coached by you?
- [111:45]
B
Oh my gosh, I love it. So my YouTube and podcast is called Leveled up friendships with Zoe Asher. Or you can just type in Zoe Asher on YouTube on Instagram, you could find me there zoasher.com and if you would actually like friendship coaching, I say it like this because I actually make people use my one tactic, which is going first. So if you want friendship coaching, I want you to go first and email me subject line coachme to zoxcidentlyintentional.com Very, very cool.
- [112:21]
A
I am so glad to call you my friend.
- [112:24]
B
Me too, Eric. This has been nothing but a treat.
- [112:27]
A
Hey, it's tripola here. Let's be real. In a world of reals, swipes and virtual trends, it's easy to forget what really moves the needle. Pond Trade magazine isn't chasing clicks. It's preserving the craft of water features, arguably the last stronghold of long form education in our industry. Where real pond builders, koi pros and innovators share their knowledge unfiltered and unrushed, you won't find gimmicks or clickbait in pond trade. You'll find find depth, detail, strategy story. From advanced filtration systems and aquatic plant care to retail strategies and contractor spotlights, pond trade is where the best in the business speak freely and where the next generation of pond builders learn what it really takes. If you build ponds for a living, maintain them, design them, or dream about doing it all better, this is your magazine. Delete. Delivered free. Written by professionals respected by the entire industry, this isn't just content for the algorithm. It's content for legacy. Subscribe now@pondtrademag.com stay connected to the heart of the pond world. Now back to the show. Thank you so much for your ears and attention to the podcast today. I just want to say, if that conversation didn't make you think differently about the people that are in your life, the people you spend a lot of time with, the people you see every day, if it didn't affect you deeply in some level, I would say you probably weren't listening or paying attention. Maybe you were too busy doing your chores while the podcast was just playing in the background. Or if we're lucky, it hit you really hard and you'll make a move at talking to some of your friends at a deeper level, like we talked about here today. But I would highly suggest to you that you take 10 minutes, sit down and think about those friends in your life. Do a friendship audit. Seriously, like, write down the names. Who's your loyalist? Who's your confidant, who's your champion, who's your mentor? Who's your truth teller? Be honest with yourself about that. And I highly recommend that you would send a message to those people in your life and let them know where they land with you. But again, I want you to be honest with yourself. Where are there gaps? Where can you be a better friend to the people that you love and the people that love you? Because this isn't about judging people really. It's about being intentional with those very important people in our life. And here's the part that most people don't really want to hear. If you're missing some of those people, you might need to become that person for someone else first. That's how you attract better relationships. So do the audit. Start showing up differently. Start showing up bolder. Tell people about how you feel, and start building the kind of circle that actually supports the life that you're trying to create. If you've got value from this episode, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Share with your friends, your partner, teammate, somebody in your world. And if you like these deep conversations, you want to go deeper as a contractor with me, you're looking to level up your business, your life. Make sure you get plugged into us over at the TWT Contractor circle on Facebook and jump into one of our weekly Compass calls that we do every Friday at 9:00am Pacific Standard Time. We go deep on stuff like this. Real growth, real accountability. Okay? So I appreciate you guys for being here with me. Your attention means the world to me. I'll catch you on the next download, Sam.