← The Deep End with Eric Triplett
The Deep End with Eric Triplett
S2-E55: Building a Better Reef: How Real Reef Rock Changed the Aquarium Game Featuring Gareth Scott
00:30:27
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A
Welcome to the Deep End with Eric Triplett, the pond digger and inventor of Helix Life Support Pond Filtration. For over three decades, Eric and his team have been in the field designing, building and protecting breathtaking aquatic ecosystems that reconnect people with nature right in their own backyards.
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Ponds, koi, craftsmanship, culture, business. This is where we dive deep into building a wild, successful brand rooted in nature. Let's dig in.
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We're live from the aquarium building at the LA Pet Fair, Pomona, California. Having a great time. Big shout out to LA Pet Fair. They've done a tremendous job on getting lots and lots of people to the event. It's been an amazing ride for us here. So I'm sitting down talking to some of the vendors and some of the people that are in the industry that could bring value to, you know, our audience is listening to here. And so what I want to share with you today is a conversation I had with Gareth Scott from Real Reef Rock. And if you've spent much time in the saltwater hobby over the past couple decades, you've probably heard the name of Real Reef Rock. And it's interesting because I share with him in the story that I took 20 years off. So in the time I was gone, his, his company and his need, his product need in the hobby has shown up in that time frame. Right. So from what I can see and I shared in the show is the Real Reef Rocks become one of the industry's, like, leading alternatives. I would say the only one that's really struck me, but it's the alternative from harvesting rock from natural reefs. And what they're offering creates a really beautiful environmental piece responsible for Reef Keepers. And it's manufactured right here in the usa, which I just totally love. So I just met Gareth here at the show. In fact, I went to his booth because I had a question about something he was doing and I hit him up. And then later on for a conversation, he's over in my booth and we're talking. I was like, put the headset on, let's go. We need to talk. But I knew I just need to hit record and get some of this documented. It was great to meet him on that. I learned a ton about him that I had no idea about. Makes me love his product even more than I started, was starting to. And you'll hear more about that in the show. But today we're just diving into his story and, you know, behind the company, how the product is made and why it matters to Reef Keepers and the hobbyists that are here today. So let's get into it. Gareth. I took 20 years off of reef tanks. I did reef tanks for probably a decade and it was part of my business. I mean, I wouldn't be building ponds had it not been for my love and fascination for aquariums. And first African cichlids, then it went to saltwater reef tanks because I couldn't convince the doctors and lawyers to just let me put rare African cichlids in their offices.
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Right.
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So I had to get into salt water. But this is 30 years ago. So, you know, I'm, I'm using Fiji live rock and I'm using Tonga branch and the tables and like, I really fell in love with that stuff. And then you take 20 years off and then it's gone.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, and then I see these, these rock reef solution things, whatever your business is, and I see them there and I was just like, so perplexed and I was like, I don't know whether to love it, I don't know whether to hate it. And so in the beginning I had little resistance. Like, oh, I was. Back when I used to do it, it was way cooler than this. You have to have the plastic. But then, you know, the more I thought about and talked about it and interacted with people that were in reef systems today, I thought it was brilliant. And then to meet you here at the LA Pet Fair and have you come over and talk to me is like a really cool moment for me. So, Gareth, tell us about it.
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We've actually been doing it for about, in the industry for about 25 years now. And at one point we were the largest importer of rock from Tonga.
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A
Okay.
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I personally lived in Tonga for about a year. We set up a collection station down there and we would ship tons and tons of rock to LA every single week.
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A
Okay.
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B
And we developed a relation, a reputation for having the best, most premium, freshest live rock. We have eels crawling out of the rock when we unboxed it in the warehouse.
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A
Wow.
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B
But over, as the years progressed, we could see the level of ultimately impact on the reef and we could see that it was not sustainable and needed to be an alternative. So there were other aquaculture based alternatives back in the day, but they were never very palatable for a reef tank. They didn't look very good. They didn't really function very well either. Often made with gray cement, which is not a very good material to put inside a reef tank if it hasn't been leached. So we saw somewhat of a window and opportunity, but also A need at the same time to take that need away from extracting rock from the reef and be able to provide something that was a quality product. It would take a lot of the guesswork out of setting up a tank. Am I going to get a bunch of unwanted critters in my tank? Am I going to get. Yeah, hair, algae problems, phosphates, nitrates, all of that stuff. So we wanted to give people a clean product that actually looks like the natural environment. And we had the experience after collecting rock for many years to know what it looked like in the wild and ideally what it should look like in a reef tank. And that was ultimately the seed that born real reef. And yeah, 15 years of just doing the rock. 16 years now, actually, we're still going strong.
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A
So. 16 years you've been manufacturing this style rock, dude. This is how out of touch I am and, and how I can be. I can block things off. Okay. I can block things pretty well. I, I literally thought, I thought your product was done by, you know, coral life or something. I swear, I. On my. Yeah, I'm just telling you. I was like, oh, that's a Coralife product or something. I don't know what made me think that. But, you know, I. I'm embarrassed to go like, this is a totally different company. I had no idea. And it's just because how I just get laser focused and I can't take on too much more because it'll just cloud what my. My vision and focus is at the moment.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But I do think your product's very cool. But the whole time I think Coral Life, I'm not so mad at them anymore, but it's not as you.
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B
Yeah. And we actually, we had, we had a fair bit amount of resistance as well when we first came out. I mean, I see the product had been worked on, played with. We had projects down in Mexico 25 years ago, a project we tried to start in Hawaii to get aquaculture, a maricultured rock in the ocean.
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A
You said mariculture, right?
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Yeah.
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A
Can you dissect that and break that?
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B
So mariculture rather than aquaculture, it's taking a form of substrate and putting it in the ocean as a mariculture. So it's using the ocean resources to turn it into the live rock that people were used to being taken from the reef, supplying, say, a quarried product and then putting it in the ocean for long enough for it to be viable to put in an aquarium. Ultimately, that still came with a lot of problems, a lot of red tape to actually do any kind of project in the ocean. Any kind of aquaculture, mariculture in the ocean. Okay. It was just not happening.
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So get with the government. You got to get permission.
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And especially in Hawaii, there was a lot of. A lot of regulations to overcome.
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A
Would it be like renting, you know, like renting a warehouse? But you're renting.
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But you're renting a space in the ocean. It's an ocean le, basically.
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A
Wow. Wow.
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They do. They do that in Florida with. With certain types of rock they put out in the ocean. When we were trying to do something different in Hawaii and have a suspended rock culture similar to mussel farming, oyster farming. I have an aquaculture background, growing oysters and mussels and try to apply different. The same techniques, but ultimately growing bigger rocks instead. Instead of small rocks, which is what oysters ultimately are. But I was able to use the. The knowledge I'd gained, an experience I'd gained farming oysters to know how to transport rocks from one section to another. And ultimately we move large amounts of weight, big pieces of rock, Small pieces of rock. Yeah. Oysters are just very small, small versions, but we do millions at a time.
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So sure. You know, I was thinking that one of the things that I used to worry about when I would get live rock is like, how long is this sitting on the raceway, you know, in Texas or something? You know, if it was getting shipped and it had to transport through text, I don't know. You know, I just. How long did it sit in la, in the sun in summertime and like.
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B
Yeah.
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And did the. Did the people that were importing it and the people in the distributors? Because there's the importer and the distributors and the pet shops and, like, by the time it gets to the end user, I'd be like, man, how good is this rock even? You know, so it's not like the importer brings it straight in. You have this perfect rock, and you get it in the water right away. I always worried about that.
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B
What happened as well is. So we were dealing with relatively small volume that was shippable by air freight. So the stuff would be from the ocean, collected in the morning in Tonga, for example, shipped on the plane that night and to LA within 24 hours. Still very viable, very, very fresh. And then often to a retail store within another 12 hours. So it's within 48 hours, Ocean to store. That was true live rock, where you still had a lot of viable life on there. As economics got involved, bigger players got involved, the demand for cheaper products and a cheaper way to ship it became the majority way of rocketing into the country.
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A
What year was that you think it went from 48 hours to an aquarium?
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That was between 2000 and 2007, 2008, when we did the majority of that. But around, around 2004, 2005, a lot of rocks started coming from Fiji and then from Tonga, but in shipping containers. And by default then you're looking at four to six weeks. Eight weeks of transit time in a container.
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Brutal.
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There's a couple of weeks prior to. Prior to the container, even leaving of the rock being collected and then sitting before it gets packed. So then you're looking at two months, three months before that.
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Yeah, Yeah.
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A supposed live rock is going to be hitting the retailer. There's really not much life left on that rock anymore. So by definition, it's not even live rocks.
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It's just ocean rock.
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Yeah.
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You know, that. That brings me to something else. I just to give you a little brief history. So, gosh, this was like, like around 30 years ago. And I was doing lots of different lives, rock and stuff. And I don't remember when Tonga first hit the scene, but I remember just being in love with it, the branches and all that stuff. But I remember taking that branch rock. And then I took 20 years off, but I sold my. My aquarium division to a friend of mine.
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Okay.
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And in a nutshell, I don't want to get dark, but my. My buddy committed suicide and I ended up with some of his jobs back. You know, they called. They by default came back to me. They're like, hey, Eric, I need your help. So anyways, I go back to this tank. There's this 500 gallon tank that had just eels and a puffer and. But I think it was full of Tonga branch rock. So cool to see, you know, But I know that rock had been like dried out, hit with copper, you know, like. And I still have a lot of that rock today. In fact, I have a 50 gallon reef tank in my living room right now, Corner tank. It still has that, that rock. And it hasn't really. It's. It hasn't hit me yet. It hasn't come back to Vibrance or anything like that. But I know, I know it's. It was just a hoshin rock came Tonga, came through my shore, and then to my friend. And then here I am 30 years later, still have it. I can't bring myself to not use it.
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Yeah.
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But you know, I. I think about, like right now, I have some corals in there. They're just not fitting the way I want them to. Because the way I have it intertwined, I mean I have the, the rock work is set up cool, but it's not conducive to where I can set corals. And I've thought about your, your, your product. Like, you know, I could set things up differently and still have a really cool structure. So that's what made me fall in love with your stuff more and more. Even though I've never used it.
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B
Right.
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But just seeing it all the shows, you know, I'm like this, this is a cool product. I think it's really an interesting piece.
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Like I was saying as well, we ran into a fair amount of resistance at the beginning because people were so addicted to live rock. That was the way to do things. That was dry rock or live rock, Nothing in between, no compromise. And live rock was always the best way to do it. So trying to establish that market with, hey, we actually have this. It's a, it's a product that's made specifically for aquariums. 100% calcium carbonate. It's the same material as live rock. Give it a try. Oh, by the way, it's purple.
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Yeah.
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Instead of just making it a plain white and sending it to you, it's purple. So it actually looks quite attractive to start off the service guys in particular really like it because you get that instant gratification right off the bat. You're not waiting six months to a year to get purple Carlene algae all over it. Yeah.
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Do you know Stan song?
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I do, yeah.
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Yeah. Stan remember, you remember the, the little structures he used to make like 30 years ago?
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Yeah, yeah.
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He made a couple of those for me. I thought they were so cool, you know, because, because I, you know, I'd have a, a cylinder tank with a overflow in the middle. I'm like, how am I going to stack rock around this? It's just going to be a nightmare. I had Stan build me a couple things out over the years and I don't have those anymore. In fact, if Stan heard me right now, he'd probably like, okay, it's cool. But, but like I remember have finding some of it from, you know, that 20 year hiatus and my friend had the stuff that I had bought.
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Yeah.
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And I came across a couple pieces that were for like maybe a 120 gallon tank to put across the back and have it kind of cool. And I think I ended up throwing it away. I was like, dude, this is just obsolete now. I mean, because of the structures that you have. If I was going to do something. I wouldn't go back to that. I would go.
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You have, right?
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So do you remember those structures he used to make?
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A long time ago. Yeah. Yeah.
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Well, that's how long I've been doing it. I mean, you thought I was just a pond guy. When you came to this booth, you had no idea what you're getting yourself into. Hey, it's Triplett here. Listen. In a world where quality is often overlooked, Helix Life Support stands proud, bringing you American made excellence for your koi ponds and water gardens. And I want you to know I worked in the field for over 15 years and had professionally built nearly a thousand ponds before I designed my own proprietary filtration equipment. So trust and believe when I say that Helix Life Support is a product line that was crafted for those who demand durability, advanced technology and a deep commitment to fish friendly designs. Now, at the heart of the product line is our patented, award winning Helix pond skimmer. Built with the safety for your koi and other fish as our top priority. No sharp edges, no unnecessary risks. Just an innovative, fish friendly skimmer you can trust. And every piece of Helix equipment that's made is with high quality materials so you can get a filtration system that's as tough and reliable as it is efficient. Whether you're a first time pond builder or a professional contractor looking to elevate your game, my team and I are ready to help you realize that vision for personalized pond design assistance or to get your hands on Helix Life Support filtration equipment. Give us a call today at 800-522-5043. That's 800-522-5043. Support American craftsmanship and choose Helix Life support for your pond. Built for koi, built for life, built for you.
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B
Yeah, it's been an interesting ride and we've definitely, I mean, ultimately changed the industry's perception of what is considered to be a good product of. Start an aquarium with. It's. It's. It definitely shifted away from live rock from the ocean. People understand the environmental. Environmental impact of it too. But now it's, now it's the standard, now it's the norm. Why would you go with live rock? Why do you want to introduce a bunch of stuff that has potential. Hair, algae or problem, aptasia, all kinds of pests. And thankfully, I think people are having better success as a result of doing that.
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Yeah. Yeah. So here's another thing too, that got me thinking about your product. I. You know, the pnw. Pnw Custom.
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B
Yeah.
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So I met Harley last year at this event. I still didn't have a reef tank. Last year at this event, I still had taken time off. I still have 50 aquariums in my garage with African cichlids. And I'm breeding some feather fins and shell dwellers and things like that. And I kept threatening like. Well, actually two years ago I went to, I don't know, Reef of Palooza or something like that in la.
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Yeah.
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And I was. I started to collect things. I'm like, I'm going to set up a reef tank again. And I bought a bunch of stuff, brought it home and I just shelved it because it was just such a commitment and I didn't want to do it. Last year the reason I got back into saltwater was because of Harley. And so I bought a little 40 ounce. Totally addicted to it. It's so much fun. And then. So as soon as I did that, then I was like, okay, I'll set up that corner tank. And so now I have a couple of the tanks going and that rock and all this stuff. To even go further into my craziness. When I tore that tank down from my buddy, that 500 gallon tank was going to get torn down. The tank was 30 years old, falling apart. They didn't want to do anymore.
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B
Right.
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So I put this 250 gallon white tote in my garage with my cichlids.
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Okay.
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And I. I've put all the tonga branch in there and I have these two. I have a goldhead mori eel in there and then a green mori. They're like two feet. They're big old beasts, right. I'm like, what am I going to do with these fucking eels? Oh my God. I mean, there's just such a pain in the butt. But I had that in the, in the, in the garage. Just. Just wanting to try and preserve the rock.
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Yeah.
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For like a year and a half. And then I met Harley. And then. So his. But I'm getting to is his little restructures that he has in there. I was like, I wish these were purple. These are cool. I mean, I know he's making it with his buddy or whatever, but I was like, I wonder if this guy has a little thing that would fit as an insert inside this, you know?
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Yeah. We've done a few things with him over the years, but nothing really has transpired. We helped him with setups at shows and whatnot.
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But yeah. Because a little 40 ounce is so tiny, you know.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I'm sure you got something for this one and five gallons, like no problem. But a little 40 ounces got me around the neck. Just, I love it so much.
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Just it's the, that first little addictive entry.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Into the saltwater world.
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Yeah, yeah. So I've had, I've had a tremendous amount of fun with that thing. And the fact that it has a sump in there was like really it for me.
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Yeah.
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But I think, I think when I had him on my show a year ago, like I came back from Lee Chenning era, where it was just like live sand, a little bit of live rock and some bubbles or a little powerhead. You know, I, I, I really enjoyed that. And I did the eclipse tanks. Remember the eclipse tanks?
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Yes.
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I used to love those, just little reef tanks. I'd drop a little power, head down the bottom and put that little thing on and just make a little soft coral tank and stack up some live rock and just be like, this is cool.
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B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, ultimately, reef tanks should be an enjoyable pastime. It shouldn't be a battle.
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Yeah.
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So any, anything you can do to make your life easy during that journey is a good thing, right?
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Yeah. So let's talk about the battles that your product solves. You've already talked about pests and potential problematic algae and things like that. What are the things that you solve?
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So we actually put the rock, because it's a calcium based product, we do put it through a leaching process. So we knock out any residual ph. So you have something that's ph stable. We grow it in salt water. So it has very basic biology. But nowadays we do dry it before shipping. So there's definitely less life on the rock now than when we first started. That shifted about five, six years ago.
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A
When does the purple go on it? Before that or after that?
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It goes on before.
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Okay.
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And then, so help me understand this.
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I want to stop you right there because how do you color it, put it in the water, start to make it come alive, and then pull it out, dry it out, box it and send it and not have algae problems already developing. Like, what does that look like?
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We run very sterile systems.
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A
Ozone.
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Don't use ozone. We do use uv. We do have dark systems as well. So no light.
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A
Okay.
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B
But ultimately it's about keeping the rock as clean as possible. And what we were seeing when we were shipping a very, very live product was the transit time for us, especially shipping to Europe, shipping to Asia. The rock was showing up not in the best of shape. So now we've gone more to okay, this is, it's been treated now. It's a dry base that's already gone through water that we would advise add bacteria so you know exactly how much bacteria you're adding. It's a quantifiable amount. As opposed to saying, yeah, we grew all this bacteria on it, but a portion of it dies and a portion of it remains in dormancy.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So when you put it back in the tank, it's magically going to come back to life. I'd rather say no. We have done the water process. There may be some bacteria left on it, but I do advise to start the tank with some viable nitrous amount bacteria from a bottle. So you know exactly where your starting point is. It's a quantifiable amount of bacteria as opposed to like, well, maybe there's some on it and maybe there's not, but yeah.
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A
What else you.
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B
We have the ability to basically make size sized rock that is appropriate for different sizes of tanks. So there's been definitely a big shift from a standard 100 gallon, 150 gallon tank going out with 100 pounds of rock just piled in it. People are a lot more specific in their structures. They want more negative space aquascapes. So we've made structures that are more appropriate for that. Arches, for example, that go from 6 inches all the way up to 24 inches and different increments in between. So the customers have a lot of choice for like basically Lego pieces to build their own structure using their own imagination.
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A
Yeah. That's really cool. I think I've seen it at Kenny's place over at Ocean Aquatics quite a lot. He always displays it in there. He's a buddy of mine, I've known him for 30 years from Darrell's pet shop way back in the day.
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B
Okay.
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A
And so when I go in there, I'm always, I always look at it and I see how it's already stacked up and, and I, I, I think it's done really well. But, but I have given it some, some resistance, like, oh man, if I could just get mine purple again. And I spend the time. But for me, I'm, I'm, I'm busy. I'm not, I'm not, not treating it as like I could, you know, and
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B
I come from that because we've been doing it for a long time too. I'm familiar with how good live rock used to be. I, if I come across some old live rock, I'm like, wow, that's a, that's an awesome shape. I wish I could Never can. But I still have that, like, that ultimate passion of, like, that's a cool rock, which is not something that you necessarily have in conversation with many people. Like, I really like the look of that rock.
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A
Yeah.
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B
But we're in a very unique hobby,
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A
you know, talking about rock. I. I have an. I have a rock in one of my aquariums in my house. It's an old, simple little lava rock. It's like one of the typical aquarium lava rocks that you would have the whole board out in the middle of it. And. And it was. I remember the year it was, but this was probably early 90s, like, 91, 92 maybe. We had the Landers earthquake up in. Up in. You know, I was living in Yucca Valley.
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B
Okay.
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A
Yucca Valley. Joshua Tree Landers. The landers. Real quick. 7, 1, 7 2. And I remember this lady that I used to help her with her aquarium. She lost her aquarium in the. In that. In that earthquake. And probably 25 years later, I built her an aquarium. I mean, I built her a pond.
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B
Okay.
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A
So I go out to her place. She's in Yucca Valley, and we're. We're designing the pond, and we're walking around. And as I'm walking, checking access and driveways and, like, where can I come in with the machines and wheelbarrows or whatever? I come around the corner and I see this rock right there. Right. Hold on one second. What would you sell all just plants at once, you freaking animal? Awesome, dude. Thanks. So I remember coming around the corner and seeing this aquarium rock. Right?
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I just had this flashback, this deja vu, this weird moment, and I got. I just paused in my seat and I said, you know, Mickey, is. Is that rock what I think it is? She's all. That's from my. That's for my aquarium from back in Landers.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I was like, oh, my gosh, what are you gonna do with it? And she's like, I don't know. It's been sitting there for 20 years. I'm like, I want it so bad. But she's like, you can have it. So I. I took it. And so when my aquarium at home, it's like, it's. I also have. My wife's been in the industry for a long time. I have this 50 year old. She was like 7 years old. She had this little dragon, ceramic dragon. And it's perfect shape. It's an antique. It's in one of my aquariums at home right now. And so it's like. It's like an aquarium, it's like an antique rock. I mean, can you have an antique rock? There's no such thing. Right. But it was handcrafted because someone bored the hole and made it for the aquarium industry and put it on the shelf. And I have it in one of my aquariums. I love it.
- [24:58]
B
I still do the same thing. Like, I come across equipment for sale. There's often subsidiary stuff lying around. I'm like, oh, that rock right there, what are you going to do with that? I mean, I. It's that same. Ultimately, the visual esthetic that we have of what we have in our minds, how that could look in an aquarium. Like, oh, that'd be perfect for this. Or that's never gone away as much as we. We have the creative creativity making our individual structures. But I still have that core base of, like, I know what. That stuff, that wild piece of rock that looks great. I know what I could do with that, so.
- [25:36]
A
Well, I have to tell you, the product's much more attractive to me now. Understanding who you are and where you come from in the past, it wasn't like you're just like, oh, well, it
- [25:47]
B
wasn't about just like, hey, let's just make something to make a bunch of money. It's like, hey, let's try and solve a problem with something that's a really good solution. Ultimately, the real reef solution. That's a cheesy segue right there, but real ease.
- [26:02]
A
Yeah, that's cool. Well, hey, we're at the fair. I know you got your booth. Let's. Tell me about the black stuff you have right now, because I approached you and that's probably why you came back over to talk to me.
- [26:10]
B
Yeah.
- [26:11]
A
But before we close this out, tell us about the black reef rock that you have.
- [26:14]
B
Black reef rock, exact same material. It's the same calcium calcium carbonate material, but we have a full palette of colors that we can use, potentially the pigment that we use. And we made some. We made a small batch about six, seven years ago. It was a big hit and limited run, and we just never got around to making it again. And I just had a thought a couple of weeks ago. Well, let's revive this puppy and see what people think now. And they. The overall reception's been really, really good, so really cool.
- [26:44]
A
So you'll be at Reef of Palooza coming up next month?
- [26:47]
B
I'll be at Reefer Palooza, and I'll be at Super Zoo prior to that as well.
- [26:50]
A
Oh, right. I'm going to be in Scottsdale at Super. I Won't be at Super Zoo this year.
- [26:55]
B
Okay.
- [26:55]
A
I really like Super Zoo. I was there last year, but I was in and out real fast. I probably missed it in, but yeah. Cool. So tell us how we can find your product. I mean, what's the best place? Because I mean you're the manufacturer, but yeah, we are.
- [27:07]
B
We sell to basically all retail stores, distributors. Then retail is available online as well. Most of the main online websites on the saltwater side carry it. If anybody has any direct questions or customer requests, they can reach out through our website, realrefrock.com and Gareth realrefrock.com I'm available 24 7.
- [27:30]
A
What about your socials? Are you in Instagram and all that stuff?
- [27:32]
B
Yeah, Instagram, Facebook, I don't do enough, but it's definitely there. We have plenty of people out there that we have provided rock to over the years and they bought our rock and they ultimately do a really good job of presenting it in a real world sense where other hobbyists can relate to influencers setting something up in the way that I can't necessarily convey, certainly not without a bias. And the influencers that we've worked with over the years have done a really good job of being non biased and sharing their passion of how they build their systems and beginning their journey or building a new tank and continuing their journey. So I'd like to build on that a bit more and do a bit more. Instagram is the main forum that we use. Facebook is because I'm old. We're still on there.
- [28:19]
A
But what, what is the Instagram handle?
- [28:21]
B
That would be Real Refrock at Real Rock. Yeah.
- [28:25]
A
Okay, cool. All right, man, thanks so much. Any final words?
- [28:28]
B
I appreciate the time. Thanks for having me.
- [28:30]
A
I'm so glad I came over to see that black rock and, and stimulated this conversation.
- [28:34]
B
Right on.
- [28:34]
A
Thank you, man. Thanks. Hey, thank you so much for your ears and attention to the podcast today. I hope you enjoyed the story behind Real Reef. And you know, it's, I should say real reef rock but I mean the, the thing is, what hit me most about this is the marketing piece of what I, what I assumed he was and where he was from. And, and just because I get laser focused on certain things and I don't let enough information come into my brain at certain things. That was a real wakeup call for me today and I just, I'd loved to this exploratory conversation with him. I love learning about how products like this come to life and, and I think our audience right now is going to walk away with a much better understanding of what goes into building a thriving reef aquarium and being responsible in the industry and just, you know, it's loving the hobby like we do. So if you'd like to learn more about real reef rock, I highly recommend you check him out on Instagram, because of course he, he said he's not doing enough, but maybe you can hit him up on that. But check them out on their website, real reefrock.com check out everything they're into. And that's it, man. Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed these conversations from the LA Pet Fair. Make sure you subscribe. And because we got more interviews down the pipeline, we'll see you on the next one. Sa.