B (2:18)

Well, thank you for having me, Nikki. I'm. I'm very well, thank you.

A (2:22)

Awesome. Where are you calling in from?

B (2:24)

I'm in London, UK right now.

A (2:26)

Oh, great. Have you always lived in London proper?

B (2:30)

Well, I was born here, but I spent about 12 years living in Florence in Italy, and I went over to Bangalore in India for a year as well before heading back here.

A (2:41)

Oh, wow. That's pretty cool. Were you a photographer then when you lived in India?

B (2:46)

I was a hobbyist in part. My time there was when I kind of started to consolidate my love of photography as a hobby and start thinking about turning it into a. Into a business.

A (2:57)

Yeah, I feel like India is such a. An amazing chance to photograph and just.

B (3:02)

Yeah, there's lots of stuff to look at. Lots of vibrant colors and, you know, from the perspective of somebody growing up in London, lots of stuff that's sort of strange and interesting and intriguing. For sure.

A (3:14)

Yeah. I think about. I think back about all the traveling I did around the world and how I really wasn't a photographer then. I didn't even have a good camera and all the opportunities that I missed. But, oh, well, I have the memories. Yeah.

B (3:27)

You know, I think the visual inspiration, you don't have to take pictures of it. You just need to appreciate it, let it go in. And the stuff that touches you, that connects with you, it comes out in your work anyway. I think so.

A (3:39)

Very true.

B (3:40)

I wouldn't. Wouldn't worry about it.

A (3:42)

Yeah. Well, so I know you're technically a headshot photographer, but I feel like you are not just any old headshot photographer. There's so much more depth and emotion to your work, and that's not to slight anyone who just does traditional headshots for people. I'm really not trying to do that in any way, shape or form, but it does seem like you add a lot more to it, to your work.

B (4:08)

Yeah, I mean, I'm not really fond of making distinctions between headshots, portraits. They're pictures of people. And I think that as viewers of pictures of people on a subconscious level are going to connect with the picture as if it is a person in the room. That's, you know, that's how we react. We read the body language, we have emotional responses. And so I think that aiming to take a picture that doesn't have any emotional content is just a bad way to start. So that should be a component of a headshot or a portrait or whatever you want to call it, anyway.

A (4:48)

Yeah, yeah. Now, is this, like, where you're at now with your business as far as the type of portraits you take and just, you know, where your work is at as now, was there an evolution to it or did you kind of always know the type of photographer you wanted to be?

B (5:04)

I mean, I think it's a continual evolution. The big kind of learning curve was working out that there isn't, I hope, a point where you say, okay, that's it, that's what I want to do. And then you just kind of do that forever.

A (5:18)

Right, right.

B (5:19)

It's working out that the thing that I want to do is to always be able to make the pictures that I want to make. And making sure that my business model, my marketing, all of that stuff makes that possible feeds into that one kind of purpose. And right now the work that I'm making is the work that I want to make right now. I imagine if we speak again in 10 years time, I'll be doing something a bit different, maybe very different, maybe subtly different, I don't know. But I hope that I'm always in that position to be able to do the work that I want to do.

A (5:58)

So true. It's so true. And it's funny because I started out as an outdoor photographer and did weddings and families and that sort of thing. And then I kind of transitioned into studio work and I did that for eight years. I've loved it. Personal branding, studio work. It's been amazing. And now I'm kind of like, eh, I'm getting a little bored. And so I've been doing, I've been going back outdoors again for the last year and just absolutely loving it. So like, yeah, I experienced that myself. It's just a constant what makes me feel alive in my work sort of situation.

B (6:29)

Yeah, I mean I think that's the most important thing and I think that everybody, all photographers should put that front and center of their strategy and make sure that, you know, that the art, of course, you know, we're all artists and we're business people and we're therapists. You know, we wear a lot of different hats and play a lot of different roles in running our businesses. But I think that the, the artist and making sure the artist is satisfied is the most important thing. And that's, that's certainly what I use to kind of lead all of my decision making.

A (7:05)

Absolutely. And I want to talk more about that kind of philosophy. But before we do that, will you take us through your evolution a little bit? Like, I know you said you were just a hobbyist. Well, not just a. But that you were a hobbyist photographer when you were in India or whatever. Will you take us through the kind of timeline and story of how you ended up with photography as a business?

B (7:25)

Well, so it started when I was born because my dad was a photographer. So I was born into a household that was full of photography. And obviously, you know, I'm old enough that that was analog photography, mostly black and white. And there was, you know, 8 by 10 prints on the wall and the smell of chemicals coming from the dark room that was in the house. And you know, that's all kinds of photography paraphernalia just lying around the place. So it seemed to me entirely normal that at the age of about seven, my dad gave me a Canon A1, which, which is a pretty decent camera for a seven year old.

A (8:06)

Absolutely.

B (8:08)

And taught me, you know, the exposure triangle, how to roll film, how to process film, how to make a print, all of that kind of stuff before I even had a chance to question whether that was a normal thing for a kid to be learning, you know. So I had that very early start, which obviously that was an advantage in that I got that grounding really early on in life. But it also meant that I didn't ever really think of photography as a choice or a thing that I wanted to get into. It was just something that I knew how to do, like I knew how to ride a bike or whatever. You know, part of growing up. I toyed with the idea of doing a qualification in photography when I was 16. And I was told in quite certain terms that I should do something academic. This was the advisors at the school, they said, you should do something academic. And I thought, okay, then they probably know what they're talking about. Turns out they didn't really know what they were talking about because I wasn't interested in the academic stuff. I could do it, but because I wasn't interested, I ended up leaving school with no qualifications, not even one in photography, and then spent many years just kind of wandering around doing bits and pieces, different things. But I always had a camera because, you know, my dad was a photographer. There were always cameras around. By the time it got to digital, I had had the little Canon Ixus, always Canon. I've never, never had any cameras other than Canon. And at that time when I was, when I got to being in India, I can't remember exactly which model I had at that point, but it was some kind of point and shoot digital thing. And that's when I started thinking, well, hold on, I remember if you can take control of Some of these parameters, you can do things a bit differently. You can create things that are not just pointing and taking the picture as you see it through the viewfinder. So at that point I got a 500D, I think it was, and borrowed a 24 to 70 lens off my dad and I was away. I then had to teach myself all of the digital stuff because my dad never really got into that subway, learn how to do digital post production. But it all made sense. It was like, oh, this is like the stuff dad taught me. But I don't have to write anything down in a notebook with a pencil. Like, there's exif information. This is easier.

A (10:48)

Yeah. We don't often talk about how, you know, we often talk about how people who grew up and did. Because, I mean, I grew up in high school taking photo. I'm 45, so I was young enough. Oh, nice. Okay. So, you know, we're just old enough to understand and know about dark rooms and like, I did that in high school and all of that. But we also have the digital, you know, part where some people who are a lot younger than us, they've never experienced having to turn in film and wait two weeks to get it back or, you know, processing an image, you know, and stop fluid, you know, just all of it. And your dad, it's like we don't have to often talk about how people who only did film don't know anything about digital. You know, it's like. Yeah, yeah.

B (11:34)

I mean, he's adapted now, obviously, like, he does use digital, but not, you know, if he wants something creatively, he will still do that on film and he goes to the dark room and that's his way of doing stuff that's creative. He'll use digital if he's, you know, got to take some pictures of the family, get together and everybody wants it to post on Facebook the following afternoon sort of thing.

A (11:55)

Right.

B (11:55)

But, you know, different things. Whereas for me, you know, I don't think, I, I don't think I'm interested in going back to analog photography. I, I'm very happy with the convenience of, of what we can do digitally.

A (12:08)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the efficiency of it and just the time. I think that that seems to be one of the important parts for digital for sure. And money.

B (12:18)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, it's way cheaper. It's, it's faster. You can, you can do so many different things after of the creative process and, you know, you get unlimited undos. I mean, come on.

A (12:36)

Yeah.

B (12:36)

That doesn't Happen with film?

A (12:38)

No, no, no. Okay, so you said that, you know, at that point you had your 5D and, and that's when it kind of started into a business. So tell us more about that. How did you grow your business?

B (12:50)

Well, so the first thing was that I, you know, I thought, well, if I'm going to do this, I need to work out if I'm any good. So even before I set up a business as such, I decided that I'm going to do photography for money. You know, if people want me to take pictures of whatever it is, they're going to have to pay me. And that was a sort of, you know, wanting that validation that I was doing something that was worthwhile enough that people were willing to pay for it. And, you know, I did some events, I did some products, say for fun, I did some landscape and wildlife stuff. And I was just kind of stumbling around trying to work out what it was that really spoke to me, what, what really interested me. And after a few years of that, I just managed to home in on, on portraits being the thing. I really liked the idea that I could be in a studio and therefore have control of the whole environment and create things like, you know, by putting up a different backdrop or building a little set or those kind of things. I'm in London, so the idea of being outdoors very much was not particularly appealing because not every day is nice outdoors here in London. And that, that idea that the person coming into the studio is the, the variable, that's the bit that is going to be a surprise every day. I don't know what I'm going to be getting. So every picture will be unique because it's got a different person in it rather than having to come up with, you know, I've got to go and photograph that tree at 4 o' clock in the morning, because that's when it's going to look different or whatever. And then through that kind of getting into portrait photography, talking to other people that I knew who were doing that kind of work, I stumbled across a YouTube video of Peter Hurley's. And that all kind of very quickly set me down the path of signing up to the Headshot crew and going all in on the way that Peter teaches the, the headshots. And yeah, that was it really. From, from there, I'd, you know, I'd needed to quit my, my day job at some point and go full time. And that experience with Peter and the Headshot crew made me just, okay, right, I can do this. I've seen all these Other people, they're all doing it. This is possible. There's only one way to do it now, and that's quit the job. Jump in, see what happens. And so I did it. And it was a good decision.

A (15:34)

Yeah, it's a huge decision. And I know a lot of people listening right now are kind of in that. In that phase of like, okay, I'm ready to quit my daytime job. How do I do? How do I do that? So, so when you, you found Peter, obviously, incredible, incredible instructor and headshot photographer and, you know, portrait photographer in general.

B (15:52)

Yeah.

A (15:53)

Did you follow kind of a business model that he taught or did you kind of come up with your own business model or how did you. Cause obviously when you quit, you gotta make money. So you know what, what has been your kind of like, pricing process?

B (16:08)

I guess so, yeah. Loosely following what Peter teaches. I'm not particularly good at following instructions to the letter, so, like, if I ever invite you for dinner, don't expect it to look like it does in the recipe book. You know, I'm that kind of guy. Like, I can't help but sort of fiddle around with things and see if I can adapt it a little to my uses.

A (16:32)

That's such a strength though, Ivan. Like, you know, of course you want to take us, you know, maybe an idea or a model and make it your own. I love that.

B (16:40)

Yeah, look, I think it is in a lot of situations. The weakness is that I don't seem able to switch that off. If I'm supposed to be following a recipe, can you just follow the damn recipe? And the answer is no. I'm sorry, I can't. I don't know why it's stronger than me, but yeah, in terms of running your own business, absolutely. That is amazing. In terms of being an employee, it can be a little challenging for your managers to deal with.

A (17:07)

Yeah, well, you're just not employable, basically.

B (17:10)

Yeah, that's what I've come to the conclusion.

A (17:12)

And I'm just not employable anymore. It's just not. It's not happening.

B (17:15)

Yeah, I probably don't think I could, could go back as an employee now. I've got used to that, having that level of freedom. So, yeah, the, the in the Headshot crew, there's this system called the, the TNT system that was devised by Tony Tafe, who's a Brit over in. In. In States, and the, the principles of it and the way that it works. The just spoke to me because. Not necessarily because of the, the advantages that that Tony puts forward for it, but because it gives me what I need as an artist. So the, the essential concept is that you don't put a time limit on the session. You don't have a package of images. You don't say, you know, choose the three image package, the five image package, whatever. You have a session fee and no time limit. And then at the end of the session, the client chooses the number of images that they want to keep, and you charge per image for that. And it makes perfect sense because the. So from a behavioral economics point of view, which is it's a way that I like to look at things a lot of the time. It means that I've always got the incentive to continually try to create new stuff, and that's a good place to be as, as an artist. Most of the time, when I create new stuff, there is a financial reward for it, and that's a good place to be as a business person. So the two things just really mesh together perfectly for me. I think it also helps that that's a slightly unusual business model in, at least in the market that I'm in. So it can also be, you know, as a marketing tool, it can be a selling point in that I do it a bit differently to most other photographers. And for some people, that's. That piques their interest or they see that that's a definite advantage for them, or, you know, it just gives me something to start a conversation with people as well, to say, well, actually I do it a little bit differently to what you may have experienced before. And that's a conversation starter, which is, you know, those things are always useful when you're, you know, on social media talking to potential clients.

A (19:32)

And I think this is the beauty of business is we get to design it however it works for us. And if that's a way that sets you apart and that works for you, like, hell yeah, you know, go for it. It's. It's like, you know, with the portrait system and the way sue teaches and that sort of thing. It's like we always tell people, you don't have to follow. You get to make it your own. You don't have to do like glamour style photos or shoot indoor with flowy dresses or whatever. Like you can do whatever you want. It's just kind of like a general business model principle that if you follow certain key steps, like if you provide beautiful work for people, if you provide great service, and if you connect with them, you are likely to do very well. Like, there are just certain key principles that I'm sure Peter teaches as well with the Headshot Crew. And you all teach in that way as well, but you get to take it and design it for what works for you.

B (20:27)

So a good analogy that we often use in the Hedgehog Crew, I think applies is like, this is a recipe, and like all recipes, we're not saying this is the only way to do it. We're saying this is a way that does it and will give you this result. So if you don't know where to start, just follow the recipe and see how it goes. Once you've done it a few times, you will start saying, you know what? I like it to have a little bit more parsley in it. Okay. Is now your recipe? Add the parsley or, you know, you know what, I've gone vegan, so the chicken's coming out and the tofu is going in. Okay, great. It's now your recipe.

A (21:04)

Right.

B (21:04)

And that's the thing that it gives you a tried and tested system that you can implement straight away, and then you hopefully adapt it to your. Your needs as, you know, adjust to taste, season to taste.

A (21:19)

Let's say that I love that analogy. And one thing I can kind of hear people out there saying is, like, wait a minute, if there's no packages and it's all a cart, where there's a session fee, plus you can purchase as many. I can just hear people saying, well, what if they just only want one? One photo, then one. You know, so. So talk to those. To those people.

B (21:40)

Well, the first thing I would say is that as a business owner, you never have a guarantee of anything. So there are always risks involved. And it's up to. To us as business owners to work out how much risk we're willing to put up with. And that's usually based on what are the potential upsides and what are the potential downsides. So. And the only real way to find that out is to give it a go over a period of time and then evaluate. So the way it essentially works for me is if I average out numbers, the people who spend the longest time in my studio are the people who buy the most number of images. So it kind of works out for me. Yeah. The longer I shoot, the more money I'm making.

A (22:27)

Is that because you're getting a bigger. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Is that because you're getting a bigger, like, more variety, maybe different outfits or different backdrops and you're kind of mixing it up in that way?

B (22:38)

Yeah. So on average, yes, that's the way it works. The people that spend the longest in the studio are the people that have turned up with more different wardrobe options. They're doing, you know, different hairstyles, different makeup, etc. So there are more looks for them to choose from. And, you know, even if they just buy one picture from each look because there are more looks, it equates to more final images. That's on average, there are exceptions. There are some people who turn up and they have no change of closing. They don't do anything different with the hair we work out. This is their best angle. And they choose 25 images of them on their best angle wearing the same clothes. And that's also fine. It's an exception, though. You know, I wouldn't base the business on assuming that that's going to happen very often. Likewise, those very rare occasions when somebody comes in and really they just want the one picture. Mostly it's a very fast session and I get my time back. You know, the time that I thought I was going to be shooting becomes time that I can do admin, post production, go for a walk, attempt to follow a recipe for dinner, that kind of thing, you know, so it all works out. And as long as the averages are good, then there's no problem. But compared to the previous business model where I had two different packages or one mid price, one more expensive, on average, I make more money. So that's a good thing.

A (24:11)

Yeah, yeah, I like that. I like that. And it really is interesting for the people who are putting more time and more energy, they're the ones that are going to kind of want more photos and spend more money. So I like that. I like this kind of. Although there. Okay, so talk to me about this because, like, when I think about having to go all the way to the studio and get set up and all of that, even if it is just a short amount of time. I don't know, I still. I wonder. Okay, so. So let me just ask you this. Do you have a studio that's in your home or is it far from you? Are you renting a studio?

B (24:44)

I live in my studio.

A (24:45)

Okay.

B (24:46)

I live zero commute. Yeah.

A (24:47)

Yep, gotcha. Okay, so that makes a whole lot more sense if they're just coming to your house as opposed to like a long drive to a studio or setting up and like all of that good stuff. All right.

B (24:57)

Yeah. So I would say for anyone who's got that situation where, you know, they. They would need to go somewhere for the shoot and set up and all of that, if you're worried about doing that and implementing that kind of business model, you just make sure that your session fee compensates you for that. So that.

A (25:16)

Got it.

B (25:16)

You know, my, my rule is if I feel that if they don't buy any pictures, I've still made enough money for the effort that I've put in. Of course I'm disappointed. Yeah, it's never happened that somebody's bought no pictures, but if they did, I would of course be disappointed because it's, you know, my ego would be damaged. It's a rejection of my work. I didn't manage to satisfy the client. But from a purely financial point of view, my costs are covered. I've made my money for the day just from the session fee. So it's not a loss, it's not a disaster from a business point of view. So that you know that that's the sort of guarantee you've got. Your, your minimum is covered. The effort that it's going to take you to set up and do the shoot is your session fee.

A (25:59)

Right, right. I wonder too if it would be helpful for people to do back to back shoots too and schedule them all in one day to avoid those extra commutes or whatever.

B (26:10)

Yeah, I mean, there are certainly people that do that. So I've gone the route of I only work with one client a day.

A (26:19)

Same. Same. Ivan.

B (26:21)

Yeah, Like, I like the fact that at the end of a shoot, I'm pretty much useless for a while. You know, I put a lot into it and you know, I need a rest. I need a little rest and that's a good thing, I think. And I don't ever want to be in that situation where we're getting great pictures. The client is really into it and we've got more ideas that we want to try. And I have to say, actually, my next project client's going to be here in 15 minutes, so you need to leave. Like that would be one of the worst things in the world for me. I.

A (26:56)

Right.

B (26:56)

I quite like the fact that we can just keep going until we get to that natural point where even without saying it, sometimes we just sort of both silently acknowledge. Yeah, I think, I think we're done creating now. Let's make some, some selections, you know, and that for some people that's after 45 minutes. For some people that's after four and a half hours. And it's all fine. I don't mind.

A (27:19)

Right, right. I'm the same. I prefer one. One client a day. Yeah. Now, would you mind sharing with us your pricing? So your session fee plus per image?

B (27:30)

Yeah. So it's £400 for the session, it's £50 per image.

A (27:35)

Okay. Yeah. And on average, I don't know if you know this off the top of your head, but if you do, on average, how many images do people purchase per session?

B (27:44)

6.3.

A (27:45)

Oh, so you do know there existed 6.3?

B (27:47)

Yeah, I mean, you know. Yeah, I keep an eye on these things. Yeah.

A (27:51)

Yeah, that's great.

B (27:52)

So, yeah, it works.

A (27:55)

And then what about marketing? How are you getting clients in? And I will say I really love your website. Your website is very clean.

B (28:02)

Thank you.

A (28:03)

And it is very easy to navigate and it's modern, but also you have these kind of like timeless, amazing portraits and it's so, like, it's so easy to see what you do and what you offer. So I really love it. But I'm curious how you get it out there.

B (28:20)

Well, I mean, the website design, I think, really comes down to the whole principle behind everything that I do with my marketing. It's a numbers game, Right. If I get my work in front of. I know I'm going to invent some numbers here, but if I get my work in front of a thousand people, 100 people will notice, 10 people will say something and two people will book me. So my job is on a daily basis to get my work in front of a different thousand people. And there's many, many ways to do that. The people that find me through the website, through Google Search or wherever, a link in an article or something, I want to get out of their way as much as possible. So if they've gone to my website, seen the pictures and think, yeah, I'd like that. It needs to be absolutely seamless for them, from that thought to booking, choosing a session time and date, putting their credit card information, and away you go. Of course, lots of people want to talk to me first or they see the website and think, maybe, and then they find my social media links and they follow me for a while on Instagram or LinkedIn or wherever, and then further down the line, decide to make a booking and that's fine as well. But it's. Yeah, it's all essentially part of that same idea that I want to gently put my work in front of people three times a week. So if you follow me on Instagram, I'm going to try and get you to go to my website at some point. If you discover me through my website, I'm going to try and get you to follow me on Instagram at some point and through that without being Salesy without telling you that you have to do anything, you're going to see some of my pictures and it's a drip, drip, drip and if it's your thing and then at some point you need some pictures taken, I'm going to be front of mind and you're going to make a booking, I hope.

A (30:23)

Yeah, yeah. Hey, just a quick break to tell you that since you're here listening, you have access to a really, a really great offer for our listeners only. We have a special promo code you can use to get 50% off the cost of membership. Just go to the portraitsystem.com or click the link in the description and use the promo code PODCAST50 to get 50 off of a membership. We rarely discount membership, so this is a big deal. As I hope you already know, the membership is how I and so many guests on this podcast reached our success and it gives you access to countless amazing videos, an awesome community and all the tools you need to build a massively successful business. So use the code podcast50Now to join the community and to start building the business of your dreams. I'll see you there. This is great. It's a long game. Like I think sometimes people get discouraged that, oh well, I did all these posts and I have my website ready and I've been sharing it. Nothing's happening and it really is a long game. You have to keep at it and be patient.

B (31:25)

Yeah. So I mean patience is not a specialty of mine. I was quite fortunate when I finally quit the day job I landed. Just sort of fortunate timing really. I landed a couple of jobs that paid really well straight away and in my mind I was like, oh, this is going to be easy. Nobody told me it was this easy. And of course those were just kind of one offs. But that got me through, through for a bit and that gave me a long time to just start doing that daily practice of being on social media, putting up posts, talking to people, getting on photography forums, just being present and being out there. I can see a pattern in terms of when I get a lot of engagement. I don't know if I've done something like this or if I've got an article that's published somewhere and I get a spike of traffic to my website that usually translates to more bookings three months later. But that's, that's the shortest bit of the long game because I also have people that book me who I first started talking to four years ago.

A (32:38)

Yes, I talk about that a lot. Yes, it happens.

B (32:41)

And you think there was no Way for me to know four years ago that this person was ever going to be a client. But on the day that I spoke to them, I also spoke to, I know, 200 other people and it's worth it because now it's a booking. So that's just the, that's the philosophy.

A (33:00)

Yeah. It's funny because that's there I can think about of people that I met at a networking meeting or something, you know, four or five years ago and they come back. Maybe at the time they just weren't ready for whatever reason. Maybe they thought they didn't want to spend the money or, you know, they wanted to lose ten pounds. Like who knows, who knows what the. Why they weren't ready yet. But like you said, if you can stay top of mind somehow, you know, here and there, whether it's through email list or social media or even. It's funny too, I find that when someone's friend was photographed by me, they often.

B (33:35)

That's a big one.

A (33:35)

Once they see their friend was photographed me, they're like, okay, I'm ready.

B (33:39)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In that sense, at that point you have become, it's a grand word to use for this phenomenon, but you've become a sort of trend, right?

A (33:49)

Yes.

B (33:49)

The people in that small social group are doing this thing now and there you go. If you were a brand new concept to them and they'd never heard of you, it wouldn't be so warmly received. But when everyone's like, oh yeah, I know Nikki, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I've been following her work for a year, it's okay. And then it's the thing to get pictures done by you. Yeah, people will jump on board.

A (34:13)

I mean, it's human psychology. You know, the behavior that humans have is we tend to do what other people are doing.

B (34:21)

For sure. Yeah, we don't want to be the first. But once somebody else has done it and it looks good and they're, they're happy. Okay, yeah, that, that makes it all much more. That's social proof, right?

A (34:31)

That's the social proof. You're exactly right.

B (34:35)

Got somebody who's minimally, even minimally of influence within a certain community in your portfolio, on your website, in your, on your social media, you should absolutely expect that that will generate some interest with the people who are also in that community. And that's for at least a short time where you should spend a little bit more of your marketing hours trying to talk to those people, not trying to sell to them, but just make contacts with the people the Friends of. Friends of the person who you've just posted on your Instagram or whatever, because that's the time to kind of reap the benefit of that network effect.

A (35:15)

Something you said before, Ivan, is that you don't believe there's any sort of rules that should be followed for headshots or that you don't have to.

B (35:23)

Or.

A (35:23)

Okay, there. If even if there are rules, you don't have to follow them. Will you talk a little bit about this philosophy that you have?

B (35:30)

Sure, yeah. So rules are a useful thing when you're learning because you can't just sort of go out into complete chaos and expect to get any kind of results. But if we think about.

A (35:46)

Real quick, though, I should have prefaced said with that it's about, like, your shooting style. Like.

B (35:52)

Oh, okay.

A (35:53)

That's what I mean. Like, just in order to get the type of portrait that you get. Sorry, I should have said that.

B (35:58)

Yeah, no problem. So if we think about what the main purpose of a headshot is, it's to identify somebody. It's mostly being used as a way for people to attract attention to themselves in some way. Whether that's purely a sort of, this is me. I'm the owner of this business. Here's my about page. Or if it's showing the individual personality of a person who's maybe a musician or an actor or whatever it is. So the more we tend towards saying that these are the rules that you have to follow, the more we're pushing people towards an average, mean thing and effectively making them all look the same. So we're kind of going against the purpose of what the headshot is for in the first place. I don't think it's useful for us to say to our clients, this is how you need to look. I think we can have discussions with them about it, and I think we can work collaboratively with them on it. But ultimately, I think I'm doing my clients a disservice if I'm not making pictures that I find interesting. So rules decided by somebody else already constrained me as an artist, and that's a bad place to start. But, you know, like anything in creativity, that's not a license to not know what the rules are or understand where the rules come from. You're better off understanding. Okay, that's why we're told that that needs. This is why we're told you need to have a catch light in the eye. Okay, great. I understand that now. What happens if I don't? Does the world fall apart? No. Okay, great. So I can decide if I want to. To not have a catch light in the eye. But I know that I'm doing it, I know it's a choice and I know the effect that that has on the picture and what that does for me.

A (38:06)

Now, one of the things I noticed that I mentioned before, the expression that you get from your clients is really, really amazing. It's, you know, just the connection and the expression. Do you have like a certain strategy in order to get that? Are you just super lucky that all of your clients have that sort of expression?

B (38:24)

Well, I mean, obviously I'm very lucky with my clients because they're all just wonderful. Just in case anyone's listening there. I mean, seriously on that point, people self select, right? So the clients that I get are people who connect with the work that I show. So people turn up feeling like I'm the sort of person that should be in one of Ivan's pictures. And that means I tend to get the sort of people that I like working with booking me. And that just goes. That's a positive feedback loop that's just been going round and round and round since I started. But the secret to getting great expressions from people is it's not really a secret is it's get them engaged, talk to them, have them talk to me about something that they find interesting, engaging, whatever. And while they're doing that work out, where's the best place for me to be when they're slightly surprised, where's the best place for me to put the camera when they say something and then just take that moment to reflect on whether they've said the right thing or not. And you see some people, they will do that and they'll move their head down to the left and some people will do that and they'll just look you square on and stare you down and you just working those things out. Sometimes before getting the camera out, just while you're talking to them at the beginning of the session. And then because of the beauty of digital, if you get it wrong a few times, it's fine. You don't show them those pictures. Put those in the bin before you get to the selection bit. And you know, you can present them with a couple of hundred images where they look great in every picture because they are engaged and they're doing something, they're not just standing there looking terrified because you're pointing a camera and a bunch of lights at them.

A (40:21)

Yeah, yeah. I feel like it's something that photographers. That's something people struggle with a lot. I think is getting that connection. I think that might be one of the harder. The harder things that people deal with. So it's just something I like to talk about and bring up because the people who are connecting with your images, they might not even know why they're connecting with your images. It's like a feeling they're getting. And oftentimes I feel like it comes back to that expression.

B (40:49)

Yeah. So, I mean, there's a lot in that. Humans are not very good at talking about feelings. And when we look at a picture and we have an emotional response to it, especially as photographers that have a degree of technical awareness, we will say things like I love this picture because. And then list off a whole load of technical reasons why we love the picture. The fact is, we love the picture because when we look at it, we feel a certain way. We can't express what that thing is, but that's why we love it and that's why we get thrown off. When, you know, to go back to the catch lights thing, this picture's terrible because it's got no catch lights. And then you show them a picture that is fantastic where there are no catch lights. And where's your rule now? It throws them off. The great picture is great not because of the catch lights or lack thereof. It's great because it gives you an emotional response. The terrible picture is not terrible because it's got catch lights or not got catch lights. It's because it doesn't have any emotional content and you don't connect to it. And that's always going to be the rule. So getting the expression, as a portrait photographer, getting the expression from your sitter or your client, that's the job. That's like 100% of the job, really. Like pushing the button, knowing how to color grade or how to remove some nose hair in post production, you know, that's not make or break, but getting the expression, that's really what we're doing.

A (42:25)

Okay, gotcha. All right. One thing I wanted to hear a little bit more about is your in home studio. So tell us. And also what do you light with? Because your lighting is really beautiful too. So maybe you could tell us about your studio and about the type of lighting equipment you use.

B (42:42)

Sure. So it's more a home in a studio rather than a studio in a home. So it's a relatively small space. It's got 14 and a half foot high ceilings and big windows. So that's a good start. It's a converted Victorian school building and there's a large look, it's perfect for what I do as a one person at a time portrait studio is just right. I wish I had a bit more space, but then I'd probably just fill it up with more C stands and stuff, you know. But it gives me the room for, for what I need. And yeah, there's this large sort of open plan area, so I've got. All of the equipment is out. Every light head has, is. Has got its own stand and they're already on stands, most of them on wheels. So during a session, if I think I want to do this, the stuff's there, it's ready to go, and I just have to move a few things around rather than getting stuff out of cases and opening up soft boxes and all that kind of stuff. So almost everything I do is with continuous light. I've got. The core of my system, I guess, is the Flex kit, the Westcott Flex kit. I've got a whole bunch of stuff from Nanlite, the various different power Forza series. So I've got the 60s, the 3 hundreds and a couple of 5 hundreds, and then pretty much every modifier you can think of, I've got as well. But I, you know, to me, that's, that's part of the, the process. I like playing with what you can do with light and seeing how different modifiers, different shapes, different sizes do different things to different faces. So I do go on location on occasion, but I have to really kind of go in with a brief and know exactly what I'm going to be shooting and only take that equipment. Otherwise I'd turn up with a, you know, a whole truckload of stuff and that wouldn't be a very efficient way of working.

A (44:55)

Ivan, do you charge more for going on location?

B (44:59)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (45:00)

Okay. I think you should too. I do too. I just was wondering.

B (45:04)

Yeah, most of the time I go on location, it's within central London, so it's not a big journey for me. But for me, the location is a bigger, It's a bigger job because before I even turn up, I have to pack everything down. As I've just mentioned, most of my stuff is ready to go in the studio at all times. So I've got to pack everything down, put it into cases, then when I get there, set it up and then do the whole thing in reverse at the end of the day. So there's extra time and effort involved. From a practical point of view, those few times that I have damaged or lost bits of kit, it's always been during packing down, putting in Cases and transporting. Like, I've never lost or damaged anything here in the studio. So, you know, there's extra stuff involved from a practical point of view. And then, of course, you know, you turn up on location, you don't know what you're going to get. So there's the extra, you know, they need to pay for the extra sweat that goes in when you walk in. And you are hoping to shoot everything at F1 2. And they've put you in front of a massive sunny window, and you're like, okay, how do we get around this? You know? And you've got to work out some way to either change the concept of the shoot or, you know, get some of that sunlight out of the way and block it off and control everything that you wouldn't have to do if you were in your studio where, you know, where everything is and have everything set up the way you want.

A (46:33)

Totally brings me back to the days when I would shoot weddings. I always had so much anxiety. Cause I really had no idea what I was walking into each wedding. So much anxiety. I do not thrive well under that sort of anxiety. Like, I mean, I was able to perform, you know, but I don't like. I don't like it. I don't like that feeling.

B (46:52)

Some people do. Some people do. And like I say, I worked out the. But I like the variable of the person that comes into the studio.

A (47:01)

Yeah.

B (47:02)

I kind of want everything else under my control, and I'm fine with that. One wild card of I don't know who it's going to be and what they're going to be like. But I don't want to have to deal with all of the other stuff that you get. Like, you say a wedding situation, you know, that's not where I want to be.

A (47:20)

I love that. Well, I appreciate you sharing all this information with us. Well, I meant to say earlier, too, that I learned because I was interviewing John Busby, one of our previous guests, and he mentioned you and how much he appreciates you and looks up to you and your work. And so, yeah, it's funny.

B (47:39)

Thanks. Thank you. John. Yes, the hat guy. He does wonderful stuff with hats. Yes, John.

A (47:45)

Yeah, he sure does. Very interesting. And he shoots in his kitchen. He and his wife do.

B (47:50)

Yeah, yeah, same. It's sort of similar philosophy. Right. Getting a space that he knows what it's going to be like. And that was what was available. So that's where he started.

A (48:01)

Yep.

B (48:01)

Yep.

A (48:02)

Very cool. Well, I do have a couple more questions for you that I always ask at the end of each episode. Okay, so the first question is, what is something you cannot live without when you're doing a photo shoot?

B (48:14)

Oh, I mean, something as basic as my camera, obviously. I mean, if that's a question aimed at.

A (48:23)

Yeah. Something beyond camera and lenses. Yeah.

B (48:29)

I mean, to be honest, like, I've often thought about this sort of, you know, what happened if there was a fire and I lost everything, what would I immediately do? And I would get one light and a 50 millimeter lens and a DSLR body or a mirrorless body and just start again from scratch. There's nothing that I can't live without. But I do love having lots and lots and lots of options. So, you know, if you took away my beauty dish, fine, I've got my strip boxes. If you take away the strip boxes, it's okay. I've got my projector attachment and I will work with whatever's there and have fun using it. So, yeah, I mean, obviously the other fundamental things are quite boring. You know, my computer, my imac, that's the core of the system. Yeah. Not a great answer there, I'm afraid, Nikki.

A (49:24)

No, it's not a bad answer, actually. And I love that you said options because I think it's really important for people to have a backup plan. Like you said, if you show up and it's too sunny, or in my case it has been where it's too dark, I'm just in this, ugh, this room that is just not great. I did this huge, A huge headshot gig that I had and I knew it was going to be taking me all day and the light was going to be changing. And 90% of the time, probably 95% of the time, I shoot with just window light and reflectors. And I knew that was not going to fly because I wasn't going to have to. I would have had to keep moving my setup based on the sun and changing my settings and all of that. And I was like, okay, this is for the birds. I cannot do this. So I ended up investing in some, some studio lights. And it's, you know, it's worked. It's worked out wonderfully. And now I know I have that option if that ever happens again. It's. It brings you more confidence and it just puts you more at ease when, you know, no matter what, you can work it out for sure.

B (50:24)

Yeah. I mean, I had a job just the other month where it was an on location job actually. And just a few days before the information came through that the person whose picture I was Taking had. Had a concussion and I was told, so you can't use any bright lights or flashing lights.

A (50:41)

Wow.

B (50:42)

So that cuts down my options then, doesn't it? So I just went along. As I said, I went along with a 50 millimeter lens and a body. And we sat her near to a window and pulled the curtain across behind her to get a plain backdrop. Did a very gentle photo shoot. And they loved the images. It was absolutely fine.

A (51:04)

Yeah, that's great.

B (51:07)

It's good to know how to do things under all kinds of different conditions and limitations. And that doesn't always mean getting more complex. Sometimes that means going really, really simple.

A (51:21)

Exactly. Yep. Okay. Number two, the question is, how do you spend your time when you're not working?

B (51:31)

There's not really a time when I'm not working that's. Yeah, that's probably not a great thing in the very long term. But right now, I often say if I'm awake, I'm working because in some way, everything that I'm doing is going towards maintaining and growing the business. Even when it's the bit in the middle of the day where I say, right, I'm gonna switch off my phone and I'm going to spend an hour going for a walk outside. The purpose of that is so that I can work in the afternoon without having gone mad and without not having had that bit of a break and switching off. So I guess in those times, yeah, I will switch off and go for a walk, listen to a podcast, go to dinner, talk to a friend, although that often will end up talking about photography or business or both.

A (52:23)

Isn't that how it works out? Yeah.

B (52:25)

Yeah. And I can't help, you know, if I'm with friends, I'm sitting there looking at. Isn't it interesting how when I look at his face from this side that he's. Yeah, okay, so I'm kind of mentally framing up pictures in my mind even if I haven't got a camera with me. So, yeah, that's. Or noticing that the light temperature in one part of the room is slightly different from another. All those kind of things. Yeah, you can't switch it off.

A (52:53)

Yeah, it's true. I'm so sensitive to light direction in our house. Like, I can't have a light. I don't like light coming from above, first of all. And second, if it's coming from behind me and then it's dark in front of me, it makes me very uncomfortable. I'm always like, when I walk into a room, I'm evaluating, like the light like, my in laws had these really white. White lights in their family room. And I was like, I gotta. I gotta get you. We have to change this. I can't even sit in here. Like, I have to get new light bulbs. And they're always just like, okay, Nikki, you know, like, everyone knows my.

B (53:22)

Like, get them a set of gels for Christmas or something. Right?

A (53:25)

Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's funny.

B (53:27)

Just a hint.

A (53:28)

Yeah. Okay. Number three is. What's your favorite inspirational quote?

B (53:35)

My favorite inspirational quote, well, one that I come back to quite a lot is an Andy Warhol quote, which I don't. I'm not a particularly huge fan of Andy Warhol's work, but I think it's very useful. And I hope I don't completely misquote him here, but he said something along the lines of, don't think about making art, just get it done.

A (53:58)

Oh, yeah.

B (53:59)

Let other people decide if it's good, if it's bad, if they like it, if they don't. And while they're thinking about that, make more art. And the reason that I like that quote is because I do encounter a lot of people who seem frustrated because they're talking a lot about the pictures that they want to make, but they're not going and making them. And I think there's a very obvious solution here. Stop talking, stop hammering away at your keyboard. Go and take some pictures. And that's the only way that you get better as a photographer. That's the only way that you break through a creative block. That's the only way that you start to decide what you actually like taking pictures of or how you like taking pictures of a certain. Certain thing or whatever. It's only through the doing. So, you know, being a photographer is as easy as saying, I'm a photographer, here's my website. But doing photography is the bit that counts.

A (55:00)

Couldn't agree more. I feel like there's a saying called analysis paralysis where I think people feel like, oh, just one more course, One more, you know, lens, one more, you know, mentorship or something, and then I will. And then I will, and then I will. And it's like, well, no, you need to start now.

B (55:22)

Yeah, all those things are hugely valuable. Though, of course, it's not to say that you shouldn't analyze your work, but, like, you've got to go and take the pictures to have anything to talk about, you know?

A (55:35)

Yes, exactly.

B (55:36)

It's not a theoretical subject.

A (55:38)

Right. All right, last question is, what would you tell people who are just starting out? Although I Feel like what you just said could be a huge part of that.

B (55:46)

Yeah. I mean, there are plenty of other, you know, greater photographers than I that have come up with quotes along those lines. So your first 10,000 pictures are your worst. Those kind of things? Yeah. Go, go and take pictures. If you're starting out as a photographer, as in you're learning the craft of photography, there's nothing more valuable than going out and taking pictures or staying in and taking pictures, you know, just, just getting up or sitting down, whatever, just take the pictures. If you're talking more from the point of view of, of business, then I think it's, you know what we were saying earlier, like, understand that it's a long game, but that means that you can play every day and just get up and do a bit every day. Just do something every day. And know that a year from now, two years from now, three years from now, some of the stuff that you're doing will come back and bring you rewards.

A (56:44)

That's right. That is right.

B (56:45)

I don't like to say be patient because I'm not patient. Be impatient. But let that impatience drive you to just get up tomorrow and do some more.

A (56:56)

I love it. Love it. And last but not least, where can people find you if they're looking for you online?

B (57:02)

So Ivan Weiss London is like that's my all my social handles. It's my website. If you just drop that into Google you will get everything. My website is IvanWiese London. My Instagram handle is IvanWiese London. My YouTube where I've got a few videos but some more going up soon is Iwa from we start London. So that should, that should cover it. You'll find me.

A (57:25)

Awesome. Very cool. Well thank you again. I appreciate it. Hopefully we'll get to meet in person one day and it's been really great.

B (57:32)

Thank you very much for having me.

A (57:34)

Yeah, thanks for being here. We'll chat soon.

B (57:37)

Cheers.

C (57:38)

Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System podcast. Your 5 star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So if you like listening, would you mind, mind giving us a review? Wherever you listen, I also encourage you to head over to SubricEducation.com where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1000 on demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business and self value. There's also the 90 day startup challenge plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses we have today do checklists for your business lighting pdfs. I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once again, that's suebriceducation. Com.