A (2:33)

Very cool. So, okay, so you're a photographer, but that is not your main sort of business right now, Correct?

B (2:39)

Correct. Yeah. And that's just a relatively recent kind of switch over for me. Yeah, the pandemic really put a lot of things into perspective for me about where I wanted to go with my business and everything like that. And so, yeah, the timing for me was really good, I guess you could say, to shift more to education, body image coaching and really leaning into that.

A (3:03)

So, yeah, yeah. I wonder if you could tell us where you started with photography and how you kind of just ended up in with this new branch of your business. Because I think one thing first, I love to obviously cover the story of just photographers and how they ran their business and how all of that worked, but I know there are photographers out there who would want to add like some other sort of branch to their business, whether it's coaching or education or whatever. So I wonder if we can go through the whole gamut of how you started and then how you added it. But I know that was like a whole lot of questions and all. Let's start with like your photography business and how that all happened.

B (3:44)

Yeah, well, interestingly enough, it all kind of goes hand in hand, to be honest. So it kind of all progressed along the same time. So photography wise, I've actually always done photography. Even as a kid. I remember like lining kits, kids up on the playground and like photographing them with my little point and shoot, like I saw in this year's catalog. And. But I grew up in a very small town, like a farming community, where creative things were not a job that you got. So I went to school to become a teacher and all that good stuff. And then I went to Korea to see if I could like, wanted to teach, like to go back to school and actually get my teaching certificate. And. But being over in Korea and teaching a curriculum, I really realized that, no, I don't want to teach a curriculum. But while I was there, I was very lonely and so I started to fall back in love with photography as a way to just kind of document my own process while I was there. And at that time, while I was in Korea, I actually ended up losing about £100 and getting into like bodybuilding and martial arts and things like that. And. And at the time I didn't realize it, but looking back now, I realized that I didn't. I hated myself more as I lost more weight than I did before when I was just like, well, this is just who I am kind of thing. And this is my body as it is. And then I moved back to Canada to. It was just on a whim, but at that same time that I moved back, my dad actually got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And so it was seeing him, like, it was about three months from the time he got diagnosed to when he passed away. But seeing him have like, a lot of regrets with his life of things he didn't get to accomplish or do, kind of like push myself, but also my sister and my brother into, like, turning that into something more like a legacy to be fulfilled kind of thing. But it was also seeing him kind of like starve to death essentially, that it kind of was a wake up call for me to realize, like, here's this person that wants to eat desperately and here I am purposefully starving myself to look a certain way. Like, that's all kinds of fucked up, essentially, is the only way to put it. And so that kind of started, like, the wheels turning in my head as far as, like, there's gotta be something more. But the body positivity movement hadn't really started yet. They like, Facebook was just a thing. And so it was still a while before I had to undo those beliefs. So. But moving back to Canada, I got back into photography. I don't know why I was like, yeah, I'm good at self portrait. So obviously I could shoot weddings. And I started doing weddings and family photos and all those kinds of things along the way. And then it was when I finally. I actually went to Creative Live and I got to participate with Lindsey Adler in the posing 101 course on there. And I met somebody there that offered to photograph me in exchange for me photographing their family. So I was like, yeah, let's do this. And they were like, we're. I'm gonna shoot you in boudoir. And I was like, well, I don't really know what that is, but okay, let's do it. And so I went, got my hair done, my makeup done, all the good stuff, and the be. The photos were beautiful. However, they were very much headshots or like, not. There wasn't a lot of full body things. And maybe that is just how she photographed normally. I never really, really knew anything about the genre, right. But I started to look at the photography industry as a whole. And this is back in like 2014 or 2013, and nobody was photographing fat bodies for sure. And if they were, they weren't showing them. Yeah. And so when things piss me off, I like to fix them. So I was like, let's do a project to show that there's not one body type worthy of being photographed. And so I just put a call out on Facebook and asked anybody that wanted to participate could come. And I was like, maybe I'll get, like, 20 people, you know, that are excited to come take off their clothes in front of me for five minutes. And I actually ended up with 75 humans that participated. And it was not so much the images that came out of that that changed my whole life, essentially. It was actually the messages I got back about the experience they had where they were with me for, like, 10 minutes. Maybe I only needed one photo. And the emails I got back right after, before they even saw the photos, were like, oh, my God, just doing that thing. Like, I feel so much more confident. I never thought I could do something like that. I didn't think my body could be photographed. Like, so many messages. And I was like, well, shit, if I can do this in 10 minutes, what can I do if I have a day with these humans? And so immediately, I just. I'm very intuitive driven. So immediately I was like, no more weddings, no more families. Like, only this. And I spent that whole next year really just researching and photographing almost every day. I'd like to say, like, as many bodies as I could. And it was through that duration of meeting so many people and recognizing that everybody hated their body. Like, From a size 0 to a size 24, everyone hated their body. So how could it be about the body?

A (9:23)

Right, right, right.

B (9:24)

And then that got me into researching the psychology of body image and understanding more. And then that's also when the body positivity movement kind of became a thing. And we were starting to see more representation of bodies in the media and so on. And so it was just kind of a. It was good timing, I would say, for all of it to happen.

A (9:42)

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like. Especially like, when you were in Korea and then losing your dad and all of that, like, a lot of really intense, important things happened, like, to, you know, evolve you to where you're at today. And then also, like, like you said, speaking with 75 different people and just getting the perspective because they were photographed boudoir. Right.

B (10:04)

So, yeah, not even. Not even, like, traditional boudoir. They were just like. The whole thing was they could wear as much or as little as they wanted. It was Like a basic backdrop, one light. And just, like, you know, pose however you want to stand there. Pose. Like, I. Because I didn't know anything about posing at that time, but I really. The whole purpose was to just capture bodies, to be like, this is what. Like, you get to show up and just be the best version of yourself in this photo.

A (10:31)

Yeah. I mean, it's basically a campaign. And sue talks a lot about campaigns. We really promote doing a campaign. And something that has to be something that's. Well, it doesn't have to be, but if it's going to be the most successful that it can be, it has to be something that you're passionate about and that you're authentic about. And it sounds like that, for you was truly very important. And it really does come come down to doing a campaign. And I'm curious if that helped your business as far as being able to book more clients and how that campaign really helped you or did it not help you?

B (11:04)

Yeah. So I actually think, number one, it helped me just by getting my name out in the community more than anything else. Like, I live in a relatively small city anyways, but at that time in my city, there was maybe one other person doing boudoir, like, traditional boudoir. And so all of a sudden. But they also were not showing, like, fat bodies again. This was. Or just bodies being bodies the way that they are. And I think that was, like, really refreshing to a lot of people in the community to see. They're like, whoa. Even if it wasn't them, they're seeing their friend, and they're like, oh, my goodness. Like, there's this. There's a. We can do this. Like, it just kind of woke people up a little bit here. And so that helped get my name out really quick. And so in that regard, yes. But also, I realize now, like, I would always do these. Like, when I wanted to learn something about body image, I would create these little campaigns or projects where I would invite people in for free. Like, it was a free experience, but it had a very specific intention, whether it was to understand more about eating disorders or understand more about, like, people that have been told they're too much of something or have scars that they want to show off or whatever. And so I would do these little projects over, like, a weekend or whatever. And so people that maybe couldn't afford my services necessarily were able to get in and see who I am, see my studio, and kind of get that little, like, tiptoe in a bit, you could say.

A (12:38)

Yeah.

B (12:38)

So. But I was collecting Data basically to like create other programs like Body Image Bootcamp and so on later on. But they were getting a little taste of the experience, which then would give them the confidence to say, oh, I survived that and there's a beautiful photo of me. Maybe I am worthy of an actual photo shoot. Because I think that's one of the things that holds a lot of people back. They say most people will say that it is money and for some cost is definitely a factor, but usually it is more of an excuse as to like, I actually don't think or the fear of me being seen on camera is greater than the reward that could come out of it.

A (13:21)

Yeah, like they think they're not photogenic. That's like the biggest thing. Like, oh, I'm not photogenic. I've had people say, like, I'm going to be the one that, that challenges you to the point where you don't get beautiful photos. Like, it's amazing the different things that you hear from people from all body types.

B (13:36)

Yeah, that's the thing is every, everybody says that. So now I just tell my clients that I'm like, listen, if I had a dollar for every client that said that, I probably would have to charge for my services. Right. Hearing that, it allowed me to then start to dig a little deeper during the reveal session and say, okay, the photos that you're struggling with, like, let's figure out what it is specifically. And like, I always look back and I'm like, how the hell did I know how to do that? I don't know, but I just. Intuition, right? Just like ask the question and see what happens. So I would ask questions, but my brain would be compiling that as data to say, you know what, 95% of clients that didn't like face forward photos, let's look deeper into what that might mean, you know, or like 50 of people really didn't like their. No, I would say 100 of people don't like their stomach. So let's look into why that might be. And then it gave me kind of little tangents that I could do further research on outside of photography.

A (14:37)

Right.

B (14:38)

But it was photography that allowed me to have access to the data to get me going in that direction, if that makes sense.

A (14:45)

Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay. So you were basically. And at the time, I'm assuming that your sort of income was photography.

B (14:53)

Yeah, definitely.

A (14:54)

When someone was coming into your studio, whether it was for that 10 minutes or for whatever reason, you were basically pre selling without being salesy, you were just exposing them to the experience with Pre selling. And then because sometimes people need to see you or your business or your face or something that you've done 10, 15 times before they decide that you are the photographer I want or that I can do a photo shoot or, you know, so I love that. I love that it's just getting them in without the intention of booking your shoot right now. It's just. You're in the back of their mind now. It's great. I love it.

B (15:32)

Thanks. Yeah. And I think it also helped just like keep me connected to the community because I. What I see now for a lot of photographers is it's a lot about like, online marketing, online marketing, online marketing. Like, everything's online, which obviously make sense in some capacity. But very quickly they forget how to do things in person with people. And like, yeah, you have your bridal shows. But I quickly, like, very quickly learned, like, bridal shows were not my thing. Like, I wanted the sister of the bride and the mother of the bride. I do not want the bride. You know, and so I did that once. I was like, yeah, that was not for me. You have to try all the things to say, okay, how does that sit with me? And like, let's take a look and what worked and what didn't work and why do we think that works that way? And then, and then once I realized, like, no projects get you your best, like, not just return on investment, but also return on information. So another roi. So, because I have time to talk with people, send out questionnaires, do the things that I realize, like, oh, if I just have my own in person things, number one, there's no overhead costs, aside from my studio rental, which I'm already paying for, and my time. So like, why not do it that way? And it's. And they're fun. They're so fun to do.

A (16:52)

Yeah, yeah. Now, before we move on to your projects that you're doing now and just, you know, your bootcamp and all of the things that you have added to your brand that you're doing now. I know people are out there probably wondering about how you structured your boudoir shoots. How did you price them? Like, what type of sessions did you offer? So could you just, like, if you. If I were to hire you, Terri, to be my boudoir photographer, what would that experience look like?

B (17:18)

Okay, so first of all, I am that person that puts their pricing on their website. So you could actually just go check on my website. Not you. But I mean, like, people can go see what I currently offer. And I'm also The person that changes things a lot. So I'm again, data collection. Let's see what this will do, right? More than. Yeah. And also being in Facebook groups, following what other people are doing, even though it's not an alignment. Again, you have to try it to know that that feels icky for me. So I think I'm trying to remember when I first started, I think I was doing full collections. Like, basically three different collections. I definitely was not charging what I charge now, for sure. And I think my highest collection at the time was just under a thousand dollars, because I couldn't feel okay to put, like, Like a. Another digit on there, even though now I'm like, okay, no, like, this is emotionally exhausting. This is physically exhausting, and you have a lot of overhead. Like, this is an experience.

A (18:24)

Everyone listen to that out there.

B (18:26)

Yeah, listen to that. Like, do your. This was the thing. I, I. If I could go back, I would definitely do a business course in the first year. And I didn't, because it was fun and creative, and all of us get there on our own time. We'll just say that that's true. And so it took me about two years before I did my cost of doing business. I'm not gonna lie, because I was like, well, it's just numbers, and I'm not good with numbers, like, limiting beliefs like that. And I was like, okay. But, like, also, you can't just. At every year, tax time would come around, and I'm like, oh, like, nobody can live on this. What are you doing, you nut? Like, yeah, it's fun, but, like, you also need to support yourself in some capacity. So it was doing my cost of doing business, which now is my advice to every single creative. Regardless what your job is, like, do your cost of doing business. And there's, like, free spreadsheets out there that can help you do it. That is the least amount you can get out of bed for and work for.

A (19:28)

Yes.

B (19:29)

And like, to me, the way my brain works, if I have logical evidence to counteract my emotional belief system, it's a lot easier for me to do that. So I needed those numbers to say there is no way. So that the emotional brain couldn't be like, oh, but I just feel bad for them, or whatever excuse people pleasing Terri wanted to throw out. Right? Yeah.

A (19:54)

So it's like, oh, I'm working for $4.25 an hour. Like, huh? You know when you really break it down.

B (20:04)

And just an FYI, people were still telling me I was too expensive when I was charging the Least amount people.

A (20:10)

Oh yeah.

B (20:11)

Oh yeah, yeah.

A (20:13)

It all comes down to those, the beliefs that we have and the limiting beliefs. And, and I think that's one of the reasons why sue is so heavy handed when she talks, you know, with what's on the education. SUE Bryce Education is a lot of that, with the self value and business and you know how many people, Terri, that I've interviewed on this podcast who went to photography school, who never learned how to run a photography business? It's like, and like you said, when you're. I'm not a numbers person, but I feel bad. All of those things I so many people out there listening could 100% relate to. I know I was that way. I can completely relate to that. So it's so good to hear. I mean, I know this, you know this, but for others to hear that, you could have thought this way once, but you can move forward and you can change that belief. You know, you can move in the direction of a successful business. So yeah, you don't have to be stuck there.

B (21:07)

Well, interestingly enough, like, the more I've done the research on the body image stuff, I'm realizing that bodies are just the same as money. Like, it's all mindset, all of it, none of it has anything to do with the actual thing you think you're dealing with. It all comes down to I'm not enough, I'm worth nothing and I don't value myself, so therefore nobody else will value me. And which is why I'm so in alignment with like what sue teaches and, and stuff like that. And it was listening to like a few of her things where she like, doesn't hold back. Yeah. And it's very like, yeah, I'm like, I'm listening, I'm listening. But you do have to get there on your own. And when it comes to beliefs and, and all that good stuff, it's a process. It's a process. Like that's the thing. And so it's just like as long as you're moving forward, that's the biggest thing. And you, and at every point I always say, like, you have a choice. Like, yeah, you can continue to do what you're always doing, but you can't expect different results if you keep doing that.

A (22:01)

Yeah, great point. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's say I book you for a shoot. I'm ready. Then, you know, do I get hair and makeup? Do I get different outfits? You know, how does it all work?

B (22:13)

So interestingly enough, even all of that has changed since like before the pandemic. So about two years ago, I was doing traditional, I'll call it traditional boudoir, where it's like, everybody get sexy photos, bring your lingerie, do the thing. But it wasn't sitting right with me or not, I wouldn't say right. It just, it wasn't for every client. And the only. And so interestingly enough, it was my own experience with being photographed that helped me realize that, oh, there's other ways that we can actually deliver this service. And so previously I would show up to my portrait, my photo sessions with lingerie. I don't wear lingerie in real life. I am the most comfortable nude or like super like, like sports bras or bralettes and like high waisted panties. Just like casual, comfortable stuff that I can move, I love to move. And. But then I'd go to these shoots because I thought that's what I needed, that's the key. And then I'd be put into all these like sexual positions. So it was about three years ago I came out as asexual, which means I honestly don't care about sex. So no wonder there was a disconnect between the photos, that they were beautiful photos. And that's the thing, it was never the photographer that was doing a bad job. But there was a disconnect between who I was seeing in the photos and who I felt I was in real life. And so having that experience for myself. And it was actually shooting with Kara Marie down in Texas where she's like, I brought all the things and like, but I brought some like tank tops, like what I would normally wear. And she's like, yeah, don't wear this other shit. She's like, this is what you're wearing? Yeah. And so I was able to dress like I do and feel confident as I am not as who I thought I had to be. And so love this. And so that changed, that changed a lot for how I approach clients going forward. And I was like, wait, yeah, there is no, like we all talk about, yes, posing foundations are important, don't get me wrong there. But like, if we keep trying to fit everyone in. And my friend Boone says as he's like, we keep trying to fit clients into the boudoir box, but we need to be building the box around the clients because that allows it to be more inclusive. It allows it to be more inclusive to all abilities, all sizes, all, you know, gender identities, like everything. If we can start to recognize what do you want from this experience? And then it becomes more of a collaboration as Opposed to a power dynamic of me telling you how you should feel and telling you what empowers you. It's like, I don't want. I'm in the. And I always, like, I have a tattooed on my wrist. It says empowerment. And I say, I'm in the business of empowerment, not sexy photos. So I shifted what I was calling boudoir. I just called it empowerment photography, like, two years ago and was like, this is what I'm doing. And to me, I had to do that to shift the intention of what I was offering the client. So now when you come in, you can. We do offer hair and makeup, and most clients do choose that, but if you. I actually never wear makeup. So, like, every time I've had photos done with makeup on, even the minimal amount, I'm like, I don't know her. Like, who is that? So now I prefer photos of me with no makeup on because I recognize the person in the photo. But I also understand how fun it is to play with makeup sometimes. But that's not for me to decide for my client. So letting them have the option to choose has been really important. And then, same thing with wardrobe. We like, I send out a wardrobe guide, which before would be like, here's what you can wear in my studio. Da, da, da, da, da. And now it's like, okay, here are some things you maybe haven't thought about that you could wear if you wanted to, but ultimately just show up in things that make you feel confident and comfortable. Because if you put something on that makes you feel less than confident, it's going to show in the photos. Right? And so, yeah, so all my wording changed. And then the biggest change happened last November. I would say we were still kind of in lockdown a little bit. So I started executing this idea, and then we had to stop it. But I send out a questionnaire, two questionnaires now to my clients upon booking. So one is what I call the Dig Deep questionnaire. And you're able to answer as many questions as you want, but you don't have to. But it's all about your relationship to your body. So we're doing the work, and you're getting to know your mindset and relationship with your body before you step in front of my camera. But that also lets me know what your areas of insecurity are not so I can hide them during your photo shoot, but so we can address it during your photo shoot. And I can provide you a different way of looking at and asking curiosity questions around. Around those body bits for you. So it's a quite in depth questionnaire, I'm not gonna lie. But then the second questionnaire is actually a visual questionnaire. And I found this was super helpful for me, because if you go to my Instagram, you'll see I shoot very different all the time, depending on what I'm creating. And so. But I got very much got into the rut of the. I call it the assembly line photography, where it's like, every client looks the same, every pose is the same, all the editing is the same, And I wasn't telling their story. I was simply putting them into the boudoir box, and that's where the disconnect happened. So now I have a visual questionnaire that allows them to say what? Here's what I like about your work. This is the textures that I'm drawn to. These are the colors that I really like. I want to incorporate natural elements, or I don't. Here's the hair and makeup that I like. Like, it allows them, because most people can't tell you what they want, but they can definitely show you if they're being compared. Right? Yeah.

A (28:05)

Yeah.

B (28:06)

And so now I have the inner information of what you're struggling with before you come in. So now I can kind of put myself, like, in a more of a coach mindset. And then I have the visual information so that your sessions can be completely different than somebody else's. But I can make sure that whatever you want to get out of the session is done. Because that was. The thing is, I just assumed, which we all do, that, oh, you're coming in for boudoir. You want sexy photos. Yeah, but sexy to you might be different to me and confident to you looks different to me, but we just use those words. So it's important to get clients to break down. Well, when was the last time you felt confident for you, it could be that you stepped, maybe doing this podcast, like, when you were like, yeah, I'll do that, and you pushed through and you, like, did something you didn't think you could. For me, it was just the other day I was doing self portraits in the middle of an open field with people driving by wearing nothing but, like, a bathing suit, you know? But that's like, very different experiences. So it's like, okay, so what was it? What was the action? Or what were you doing? And that helps me figure out posing, lighting, and just the whole experience. So you can actually embody what the intention is as opposed to just, like, saying, feel this way.

A (29:29)

Yep, yep, Absolutely. And there's so many things that you said, like in bringing it back to how people can apply, you know, this kind, all of these kind of ideas, not necessarily about body positivity or body image because you know, that's your thing, that is what you brought to your brand, that you teach, that you're passionate about. But if you are trying to do a business a specific way that doesn't feel authentic to you, I'm going to keep going back to that. Just like with the campaign, to you it did not feel authentic. You didn't feel like you were servicing your clients in the way that they deserved. So you changed it. And I love that. Whereas I think we get stuck. We watch a course, we see what other photographers are doing and we think we need to do it the way that they're doing it. When in reality you can do whatever the hell way you want as long as it's authentic to you. You're providing a great service to clients. You're making them feel empowered, they're getting what they need. In the end, like it doesn't matter what genre you do, you know how you do it, as long as it feels good to you and it feels good to your clients. Like hearing you describe about how like you're just, you allow it to be very open ended to what they want and how they, you know, like I can tell you have, you're a creator, you know, and you where I'm like listening to you thinking like, oh shit, I don't know that I could be that open ended about like this is what. Okay, let me back up. First of all, I want my clients to have especially with like hair makeup and their outfits. I'm very much like, I used to have this whole studio wardrobe and all of that and I just got rid of it because I'm like, first of all, not a whole lot of clients were actually wearing it, which led me to believe like they didn't want to, like they want to wear their own stuff. So of course, like I'm very much, when I, when I give my directions as to, you know, because people want to know, what do I bring? I'll say like here are some ideas like jeans in quotations if you're a jeans wearer, dresses if you're a dress wearer, you know, I try not to make it and I say like, this is you. I want you to feel like you. But I'm also very like, I like to shoot in my studio with my specific lighting and I have poses that I know like people really love and so I'm more like, it gives me anxiety to have things be so open ended. Like you could do whatever you want, but that's me and you love that aspect of it. So like, I guess my point is for people listening, like you can make your business however, and whatever feels good to you and feels good for your clients and you are going to attract those clients. Like you're going to attract different clients than what I'm going to attract 100%. And like, that's okay. We're all going to have, you know, just our own path and we don't have to fit into a box. You can learn. Sorry, I'm totally going off on a tangent here. You can learn a business model and make it into whatever you want as long as you have the foundations of running a business with like the cost of doing goods and the pricing or whatever. But how you get there and what you do within what you're creating is so up to you.

B (32:36)

Well, and that's why I think it's so important to get gather. I always picture it like a big toolbox and you're like, just collect. Just collect the things. You don't have to use them all the time, but it's good to know that you can if you need to. Right? And similarly, like I do have opposing flow or a method that I usually will go through with clients. I would say actually maybe not opposing flow, more of a set flow. Because I also shoot out of my studio at least for the next year. And so there's a very specific way just to keep myself on track time wise. And because I've been doing it for six years now, that it just makes sense to go with that flow. So that way and the foundational posing and so on is still there. But once they're in there, once they're in that pose, I'm like, okay. And then I'll give you. This is where like I went to school, right, for teaching and creative writing. So that's where I'm like, this is where I get to use my creative writing. Because then I'll come up with like, like stories to help them tap into whatever the intention was that they set for the session. So asking questions or think about a time when you were. And immediately in doing that, their body will shift, their body language will shift into whatever they felt in that moment. Because that's how the brain works. And so that is what I want to capture. So I'll start with the foundation, but then we move it to be more like them because I just remember like, making people. Like, when I was doing more traditional boudoir, I'd be like, arch your back. Like, make it hurt. You know, like. But then I realized I'm like, that's very. Which is. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what the client wants. Just an FYI. Yes, but not every client wants it, and not every client can do. And I think that's where photographers are getting into trouble. And this is why they ask, like, oh, my God, I have somebody coming in that has a disability, like, how do. How do I do this for them? And they feel frozen or stuck. Or I have somebody coming in that's a size 22, and I don't know what to do with their body. And it's like, number one, it's because we haven't seen bodies like that as often as we need to be. But also because every posing flow we've seen or all the education we've seen has been done more often than not on very specific body types. And so, yeah, it's okay that your brain is freezing, but that's when you have to go back to the basics of, what am I doing? What am I here to offer? And I experienced that with the first person I photographed that was in a wheelchair or was a wheelchair user. And they. And yeah, there wasn't as much posing that I could do. I had to change up what I was doing. But I was like, terri, focus. Like, what are you doing? You are here to empower this person in the way. So figure out what empowers them and say, shoot with the light that you always shoot with. Let them wear the outfits that usually, like, whatever their intention was, that would complement that. Like, just do the same thing. It's not about the poses. It's not about. And that I realized a lot of after the pandemic was how much stuff I had accumulated in my studio thinking I needed it. But this goes right back to, oh, if I have the right stuff, then people will hire me if I have the right things. And that, I think, comes from being in Facebook groups and seeing what everyone else is doing. If I do that, then I'll be successful. And it's like, whoa. Some of my best work was done when I had, like, my. My husband's grandma's couch in the studio. When I first moved in, there was no furniture at all, and I had nothing except for me and the relationship with the client in front of me. As soon as I started adding in all this shit, it became very much like, get on the couch. This is what you do. Yeah. Look how beautiful the set is. It's not about the client if you're looking at that.

A (36:31)

Yep, yep, totally. I can relate to that. Some of my very favorite shoots were at the beginning when I didn't know what I didn't know. Hey, just a quick break to tell you that since you're here listening, you have access to a really great offer for our listeners only. We have a special promo code you can use to get 50% off the cost of membership. Just go to theportraitsystem.com or click the link in the description and use the promo code PODCAST50 to get 50% off of a membership. We rarely discount memberships, so this is a big deal. As I hope you already know. The membership is how I and so many guests on this podcast reached our success. And it gives you access to countless amazing videos, an awesome community, and all the tools you need to build a massively successful business. So use the code podcast50Now to join the community and to start building the business of your dreams. I'll see you there.

B (37:24)

Yeah, the. The Dunning Kruger effect is real. When you have. You have the extra confidence of like, yeah, I know what I'm doing. Totally.

A (37:32)

But yeah.

B (37:33)

And then you're like, now I know what I don't know. And now. Oh, God. So now they need all this stuff to compensate. But then it sounds like you've also come back around to like, wait a minute, what am I doing here? And that was. Yeah, that's why I'm getting rid of my studio next year. I'm like, no, I can create work anywhere I go. It doesn't. I don't need, though. I loved my studio and it did well for me, but it's like all the stuff, the amount of money I spent, you know.

A (38:02)

You know, I actually got rid of my studio as well. I had two studios. I had two full functioning studios, one in Seattle and one in Michigan. And now I let go of my studio in Seattle. I go back sometimes to work and I just run a studio while I'm there. And now I entered a share space that I don't have to manage. It's not my stuff there. I can't collect things. I can't. And I am just like, oh, like, it's just so perfect for my soul to not have. And I still shoot my studio all the time. My studio, the one I share.

B (38:31)

Yeah, it's not.

A (38:33)

I don't have to anyways. Yes, I can relate to that now. Now, Terri, I want to hear about how you kind of added this brand or not added this brand that was your brand, added these services that you provide. Now the education, the bootcamp, you know, all around body positivity. How did you transition into that with. And how did you market it just for people out there who might want to be adding something to their sort of photography business and brand?

B (39:02)

Yeah, great question. So I think that I have. I have two things going for me. One is self assurance and like a kind of futuristic or a very visionary. So. And I would say trend spotting. So I can see. I always say I see gaps. Like I did with the body. Like, I was like, nobody's photographing these bodies. Like, well, I'll go in and I'll do that thing. So then once I started working with clients, I was like, okay, I got a handle on how to work with clients. I got this business going on the side here. Then I was like, okay, but now there's like a huge gap here in the photography industry. Like, obviously, if I, as I always said, my. My whole mission is to actually have maximum impact. So I, as one person can only do so much, right? I can shoot maybe 200 clients a year effectively. But if I could teach people how to do it, then that is exponential impact across the globe, technically, especially with the Internet, that makes it that much easier. And so I was like, this is amazing. Also, I went to school to be a teacher, so it kind of like, that's where, like, I don't know if you've done the like, Venn diagram of like, purpose experience or. No, to find your purpose, there's like, your values, your. What is it? Values, passions, strengths and experiences. Those are the four things. And so you fill those in and then that. Then you brainstorm all the different ways you execute that. And. And for me, all of that came out to like, okay, you like to teach. Like, I love, I love teaching workshops. Like, it is so fun. And it was actually last year when the pandemic hit, I really noticed it significantly, which allowed me to really lean into it. Thank God. But before. Let me go back a bit. 2016 was when I. I created like a posing guide essentially called Confident Curves. And re. The reality is, like, people were like, oh, my God, this is revolutionary. No, it was the same boudoir poses, just with bigger bodies.

A (41:06)

Like, it's the same, just.

B (41:09)

But people are like, oh, my God, like, it's mine because we hadn't seen that. And that's when I started to realize, like, oh, like, people just need to see it, right? And then the more I learned about how, like, how representation affects our biases and our belief systems and so on. I was like, oh, yeah, this ne. We need, like, all workshops now. I need to have diverse bodies, like, so that people can just see that it's possible. Because if we as photographers cannot see that it is possible for diverse bodies to be photographed, then how the hell are they going to see it?

A (41:42)

Yeah, right.

B (41:43)

So we have to do that work. So that's where I started, kind of educating photographers more and also getting into mindset. It was like the end, the middle of 2018. I was at the height. I would say the height of my, like, financial part of my career. I was making a lot of money. I was shooting a lot, I was traveling a lot. It was amazing. But it actually wasn't like looking at my Instagram, looking at everything, you would have been like, oh, my God, she's living the dream. I hated my life because, number one, I was on the assembly train for. Or assembly line for Boudoir. I was just like, get them in, get them out, get them in and get them out. There was no connection. Traveling was a great way for me to basically, being busy became my new addiction. Right. Let me just work more, and then that'll over. Over, you know, override all these feelings that are coming up. Let me just distract with more work.

A (42:38)

Yeah.

B (42:39)

And so I was like, having this, like, it was basically like I split in two pieces. Part of me wanted to go to teach and. And so on, but I. My brain kept coming up with excuses why I couldn't or these belief systems, like, no, no, no, no. You can't just do. You're a photographer. This is how people know you. And the ego likes that. So I was like, ooh, let me stay here. The ego's happy.

A (43:03)

Isn't that funny? Like, even with just the studio example, I remember thinking, if I let go of my studio, are people gonna think that I'm, like, not as successful anymore or I'm not as. And even something as small as that. And, like, I should say, like, there was a time when I loved having that big studio and I loved managing it myself. But, like, things change and things happen and. And, like, that's okay because this is what works for me right now. But it's interesting how in my head, I'm like, I don't know. Anyways, it's. It's. Yeah, go ahead.

B (43:33)

But that's why. Yeah. So it was like. But that's when I realized, like, I gotta get my mind under control. Number one. I hadn't actually dealt with my dad's death. That was an issue. This was 10 years later. And it was. I'm very good at, like, oh, no, I'm strong and independent. I'm good. But then those things still, like, hey, don't forget about me. So I actually. But the way I do things is like, well, let me go learn about this to help other people. So I went back to school and got certified and applied positive psychology. So I got to learn very intensively about all the ways that our brain works, which is fantastic. And it was in doing that that I. That's where, like, I wrote a book based on the. That, like, and how it relates to body image. And it just gave me so many more tools. Yeah. But it also helped me to recognize, like, hey, you're the only one holding yourself back from moving forward. Like, what are you doing? Like, and really improved my self awareness because it was basically like seven months of consistent therapy. Basically because they make you go through everything. But I realized, like, wait, I can't be a role model to these people that I'm educating if I'm preaching one thing or talking about one thing over here. Like, yeah, go for it. Take the chance, do the thing. Take the risk. And I'm still sitting here like, oh, no. But it's super safe here where people still like me.

A (44:57)

Yeah.

B (44:58)

And that's when I had to unravel all that icky stuff.

A (45:01)

Authenticity. Going back to being authentic with what you're teaching or doing or providing.

B (45:06)

It just felt like, so like there was this. I don't like the way that feels, and I don't do well when there's like, I am a Libra. So maybe that's why. But when there's like an imbalance or I'm in limbo or whatever you want to call it, I do not do well there. Like, I need to make a decision and do the thing. Like, whatever the decision is, decide to stay, decide to move. Whatever you do, make a damn decision. And so. And so the pandemic hit, Right? And it was during that that I kind of was like, okay. Of course I like, everyone. I had this, like, panic, like, oh, my God, what are we gonna do? But I was like, wait, my community needs me right now. What am I here to do? I'm here to empower. Okay? I don't have the same tools that I used to have. What can we do? So, so I started to do webcam photo shoots for people. I was like, look it. Most of we talk about the experience Being the most important piece with the photos just being the memento at the end of it. Let's see if I can do that with the only tool that I have available to me, which is a webcam cam. And so I would do. So I tested this out on a few different clients and friends, mostly other photographers that were like, okay, like, let's see. But. But then I created a tutorial about it for people, for other photographers. I'm like, I don't know if you want to do it. It just gives you something to do. It'll help you engage with. Keep in touch with your clients while you're at home. And it just, like, it's positive. It's a positive thing. You're, like, still yelling positive things at them through the Internet. It's lovely. And it was watching the photographers take what I had taught, and all of a sudden, it was like all their depression lifted because they had a purpose again. And then I was like, okay, now I'm done with webcam sessions, because I wanted to learn it, to teach it, and now other people can go do it. And I got more joy out of watching the photographers execute what I had taught than I did about actually doing the thing myself. And so that was a very good experience for me to recognize, to say, okay, you get more joy over here now, like you said, I did used to get it from over here. There was a lot of joy over here. But now I say, like, if it's no longer serving or saving me, it's time to let it go. Totally right? And so that's when I kind of was like, okay, we need to start making moves to kind of really lean into the education side of things, like, be there for your community. How can you support them? Like, and then. And then the Black Lives Matter movement, like, really, like, took off. And that's when I looked around again at the industry and was like, oh, wow, there's a lot of people getting in trouble because we don't know the basic human ethics. So I created, like, the Boudoir University, which essentially is just, like, seven human ethics courses on different areas of oppression, to help photographers understand how our lack of knowledge can impact the clients that we're not seeing or the clients that do trust us, and we are doing them a disservice. So, again, it was the same thing, but for that, I. I didn't teach at all. I just reached out to other people that were already advocates in their area, which was amazing to see them do that. But I did realize I don't Want to create a school. I'm like, it was a good experience and it was delightful, and I'm glad the content exists, but I'm a moving forward kind of gal. Yeah. And then as far as, like, Body Image Boot Camp goes, that actually came out of my clients. It was doing a reveal with one client who, like, exists in more of a stereotypical body. We'll say, like, that we normally see a smaller body, and she's like, she came to a reveal. And then afterwards I got an email back, like, I hated my photos. It's not you. I just literally don't like what I see myself. I don't like the way I look. I don't like myself. And that's when I realized, like, there's probably about 2% of clients of mine anyways that need more than just a photo shoot. And that's when I really started to dig into the psychology aspect of body image and the science behind it to help them and help them. And so I created a course called Body Image Boot Camp, which walks people through, where did it start? How are you perpetuating? And how can you move forward? And similarly, I was doing it originally for my clients, and then I was like, wait, I, as one person can only do so much. So now let's talk to the photographer so they can teach the content to their clients. So, yeah, that's kind of where that came from.

A (49:40)

There was something that you posted on Instagram that I loved. It said something along the lines of, let's stop using the phrase real bodies. Like, I photograph real bodies because every body is real. Will you talk a little bit about that?

B (49:54)

So, yeah, so I understand the intention behind people using phrase like normalize normal bodies or real bodies bodies. But when we have to specify, you're essentially overstating something that is true already. Like, if bodies were are real, we don't have to say that they are real, but it also detracts from the bodies that we have been seeing. Like the smaller bodies that we've seen in media. Yes, that's all we were shown. But that's not their fault. They were still bodies too. Right. And so when people say things like that, it detracts from the people that do exist and in smaller bodies. But also it just like emphasizes that, oh, no, like, these are still different bodies. And we have to just make sure, you know that these are real and normal bodies. It's like, if they were, you would just say, oh, there's a body and there's a body. But my hope is that we Just stop talking about bodies altogether because they're really just always changing and moving. So.

A (50:53)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really love what you're doing. You're bringing such great awareness. It's. It's important work. And I love also that you, like you said you're only one person. You can only teach, you know, so many people. But when you open it up to teaching other creatives, other photographers or other, you know, stylist or whomever about body positivity, it does, it opens up so much more, you know, possibilities. So I really love it.

B (51:19)

Thanks. Yeah. It's been so fun though. Yeah. And my favorite thing is literally watching, like, not, not just seeing the photographers, like, they share their photos of clients that maybe they wouldn't have shot with before, but they're shooting them in a different way now than they would have shot before. Like, the way we stand, like, the rules that we're taught in photography are very sexist, but also they totally dismiss like non binary folks or just like people that don't necessarily, like, I'm not super femme like, or feminine, like, but that's what is expected of me because I identify as a woman, you know, and I'm like, no, shoot, shoot me. Like you would photograph a man. Like, shoot up at me. Let, let me show my broad shoulders, show my strength and my power. Like, I don't want to be submissive and shot down on just because I'm in a plus sized body. Get out of here with that.

A (52:11)

Yeah, yeah. And you get to have that choice and that voice. And it shouldn't be assumed that you want it the other way. Like, and I try to. Well, I don't try to. I listen to what my clients when they say that, because I will have clients who will say, make me look as thin as possible, take £20 off of me. And, and you know, there's this little part of me that feels a little bit like just kind of, you know, makes me feel sad. But at the same time, that's what they're asking for for me and I'm here to provide a service. And like, clearly what you do is more in depth and more on the educational piece of it. But I'm like, all right, that's what they want in their photos right now. And so that's what I'm gonna give them, you know, so it's like, I don't know, it's.

B (52:52)

But that's where, like when client. Because I still have clients that say that, of course. Like, yeah, I like have clients that say stuff all the Time because like diet, culture and beauty standards run so deep, even I still like when I look at certain photos of myself, self portraits are taken by other people. The preconditioned thoughts come up like, oh, no, you look too big in that photo. And then. But the qu. The key that I think we can do as photographers or professionals, whatever you're doing is to just ask questions like, why do you think you need to look thinner in photos? I'm just curious. Right? Like, our job is more, I would say is to like just plant a seed.

A (53:33)

Yeah.

B (53:34)

Like, I'm not, I'm not. And I always tell clients this. Like, I do consultations before photo shoots usually. And I'll usually be like, listen, I'm not gonna undo 25 plus years of negative self talk in a day. You cannot put that on me. That is not fair. Like you, I think that's kind of my head.

A (53:48)

I. I'm like, oh, I don't even know how I would begin. But I like what you just said. It's planting the seed. Like there are a few things we can do to maybe help. And I love that you just said that. Okay, this is.

B (53:58)

And so the other thing I do is I like during the reveal, I actually like I do in person reveals. And I always have just always felt right to me was to sit with people when they see their photos because they are their own worst critic. So I could get their mindset right before they see the photos. Because if they come in after having a bad day, they're already hardwired to look for what's wrong in the photo. But I always make sure to let them know, like, whatever you think you're going to see is exactly what you're going to see. I could take the best photos on the planet, but if you already think that you're going to look like shit, then that's exactly what you're going to see. So I need you to them, I'm a big advocate for personal responsibility, in case you haven't noticed. But like, I need them to understand the part that they play in witnessing this. And I am not a magic pill. I am not the narrative next diet or weight loss or whatever. Like, everyone's wanting it to just be fixed and it's like, no, I need you to put in a little bit of work here too. Like what you want to see is what you're going to see. And then walking them through a few other things that their brain is going to do just that they've trained themselves to do. Like hyper focusing on Certain parts of your face or body. Whenever you look at any photos, I tell them when you do that, you're missing the whole context. They'll. Yeah. And like, I always tell them. I'm like, photography was not created for beauty or beauty standards. It literally was created to document a specific moment in time. That's it. That's all your expectations of it are very. Are what's making you disappointed. Yeah. And so my job is. Or what I encourage photographers to do is show clients photos that might challenge their beliefs. And what I mean by that is if they have an authentic emotion, but they have a double chin or a tummy roll, back roll, whatever, that is not your choice to not show that to them. Yeah. And what I do is I show them all the things. I show them the ones that are more make. Maybe make them look thinner or whatever, because that is kind of what they've alluded to. But I also show the ones where they were just existing and looking amazing. And then I let them know before they see them that I want you to understand you don't have to love all these photos. I'm like, I don't care, actually, if you don't. If you're seeing them, they're good photos. That's why I say I'm a bit of a cocky bitch that way. But it's true. It's like, if you're seeing them, they're good photos, and I need you to understand that. So if there's something else, I would like to know about it so I can help you through that, because I don't want you to go home and cry about it. I want you to tell me so we can talk about it. At the very least, let me hold space for whatever it is you're feeling. But I let them know that if you're seeing these photos, there's the ones that you don't love. I just need you to know that somebody thinks those parts of you are beautiful.

A (56:44)

Yeah.

B (56:45)

Even if you don't believe it yourself yet.

A (56:47)

Yeah.

B (56:48)

And then that helps kind of. Boop. Crack them open a little.

A (56:51)

Yeah. I love that. What are your thoughts on if you see yourself more often? You know, there are certain things that I. When I started doing video and with sue, even as. Just as a student or whatever, and I would see myself and I would cringe and be, you know, where other people might never notice and be like.

B (57:11)

Shut the fuck up.

A (57:12)

Like, that is not even, you know, but for me, it was a big deal. And the more that I saw myself on camera, whether it was photos or videos, and now I do these videos. Even hearing my own voice. At first I was like, oh my God, can I have a salad with my mom? With my Michigan accent, Like, you know, and it took me a long time that now I hear my voice and I'm like, all right, you know what? That is me. And I'm like getting emotional right now just even thinking about it, which is. I don't even. But like, now I can hear my voice and I like it, and I can see myself on camera. And there are times when I'm like, eh, not such a great day, but okay, you know, But I've learned to love myself more by seeing myself more. And I don't know, like, okay, so I'm glad you said that. Tell me more about that. What do you think?

B (58:02)

So exposure therapy is a thing for a reason, right? Like where. Where you expose yourself to the thing that you're afraid of the most is like, over time, you will eventually build up kind of a resistance to the fear part of it.

A (58:16)

Okay.

B (58:17)

If we break it down to like a psychology aspect of it, like that initial thought that comes jumping up is like, oh, I don't like the way I sound on. On things there is. Because it's uncomfortable. This is. This is the key. It's not bad. It's uncomfortable for your brain. Our brain is built on representations, like little maps, essentially. So you see yourself very one specific way. Because the only way you usually get to see yourself if you're not like you and me, where we see ourselves in videos and photos all the time, is that we see ourselves in a mirror very one specific way. We have this very specific identity about ourselves. And usually that identity is crafted by other people beliefs. I say ancestral telephone is a bitch because like, we. We see parts of ourselves that somebody said, oh, your nose is too big or your arms are too hairy or whatever the thing is. And so when we look at ourselves in the mirror, that's all we see. Because our brain loves negativity. So we're just like creating this lovely map of what we look like. But our brain is like, yes, predictable. I know that person. So when we see ourselves in a photo, number one, it's usually the opposite of what we've been staring at. So when it does its little map scan of body or the face, it's like, whoa, that's. That's not Nikki. Like, wait, whoa, wait a minute. That's not where her eyebrow normally is. And so it causes this little bit of stress. Now when we're Stressed, we focus more on risk and negativity. Yeah, right. So all those negative thoughts come up of, like, oh, God. Oh, God, everybody's gonna see this. Oh, my God. They're gonna think I look, like, terrible. And then the belief systems come up and like, yeah, that's because nobody really likes you, by the way. And you know what? If you're too ugly, then you're gonna get ousted from the tribe, and then you might die. Essentially, it all boils down in, like, a millisecond to, I might die. And so your brain is, like, fearful, but if you go into it and you're like, okay, that is me. Just, like, hearing your voice, you're like, you know what? I gotta get over this because I gotta listen to myself. This is what I'm being pushed to do. Or I'm doing it. And over time, there's a point where you're not like, oh, my God, I love the way I sound on tape or recording. You're just like, that's. I guess what I sound like to some people.

A (60:37)

Yeah.

B (60:37)

Yeah. It's like. It just is. And the reality is, is we just are. But we attach thoughts and make things to mean something more than they actually mean. So if we think about. Right. Like, if we think about a double chin in a photo, well, we've been taught that fat is bad. I'm a fat person. I can tell you that my life is awesome, and it's not as bad as people make it seem. There is oppression, don't get me wrong. But I mean, overall, I'm a generally happy person. And, like. But when we see that photo, that fear comes in of, like, gasp. I'm big. And big is bad. Because we've been taught that from the time we were little. And so now we have to do the work to say, okay, hold on up. Why do I think big is bad? Who taught me that big is bad? What does that mean? If I'm big and, like, go through the thought process, that's where curiosity is your best line of defense. And I actually tested this at the studio I used. This is the projects that I used to do campaigns where I'm like, I have a theory. If people look at the same photo of themselves over a week and they just, like, write all over it whatever they're thinking, they will become aware, number one, of what they're thinking. But if I give them homework to do in between to counteract that, will it change the way they view that photo later on? And sure is. Shit, it worked. Yeah. So. Yeah. So yeah. Seeing yourself all the time, number one, it breaks down the uncomfortability that your brain initially feels when you see yourself on camera, hear yourself on camera. Camera or photograph or whatever it is. So I encourage people, and sometimes I will throw in the photo that the client has the hardest time accepting into their collection. Because I'm like, here's your homework. I want you to look at this and I want you to journal everything, no matter how vile of a thought it is. And then I want you to use these questions and I want you to just sit in there for a second and explore without judging it and saying. Because the thing is, you're thinking them anyway, so you might as well talk with them and say, like, where did you come from? And it's like, again, is it serving me or saving me? Because at one point those thoughts your brain believed were saving you and serving you to fit in with your peers, to make your parents happy, to do whatever. But at some point they will get in your way and stop you from accepting yourself, Living your most authentic self life and making you ill, charging what you want. Yeah. And literally make you sick. Yeah. So it's like at some point you have to make a decision. Yeah.

A (63:15)

Yeah. So frustrating. I was laughing earlier when you were talking about how we see each other the other way, because our producer and tech director, Kellen and Vincent, they know that we started using a different program and it flipped me and I was like, hold the phone. Like I said, who is that? I'm pretty sure the words came out of my mouth.

B (63:37)

Mouth.

A (63:38)

I look like an alien. You need to change this back. Like, I was freaking out. And Vincent's probably laughing right now as he's listening to this because that is 100% was my reaction. Flip me around. I can't look at myself like that.

B (63:51)

Well, the thing is, they're probably like, well, that's what you look like to us. Like, what the hell are you to them? Looking at you the other way, they're like, that doesn't look like Nikki. That's not what my map of Nikki is.

A (64:02)

That's how my kids see me. That's how my husband. I'm a mom, I'm a sister, I'm a friend, I'm. You know, all these things. And this is how people see me all the time. And somehow they still love me.

B (64:10)

Like, what? That's it. That's what I tell people. It's the same thing with angles. Right. We've. I always get people to do an activity. We could do it with the listeners if they want to do it. Do you have your phone with you?

A (64:21)

Yeah.

B (64:22)

Okay, so I want you to take a normal selfie like you normally would me.

A (64:26)

And so I, I, I just like.

B (64:28)

You know, eye level or slightly above. We're not fooling tools. We've been taught the tools. Okay, so your second selfie, I want you to put it down here and take the same photo.

A (64:38)

Oh, I end up with this all the time when I open it.

B (64:40)

Yeah. And just give it a nice little smile. And which one do you like more?

A (64:47)

Wait, really quick if you're listening and not watching, because this is. We're doing this as video is. Terri had me do it normally, and then the second one, she had me holding, like, under my chin kind of.

B (64:57)

Of. Yeah. So you hold it, like, kind of to your chest and then look down at it. So. Yeah. Which photo do you like the most?

A (65:02)

I mean, the first one.

B (65:03)

Wait, so why do you think that is?

A (65:06)

Well, I don't know. My chin, I mean, it just doesn't look like me as much.

B (65:11)

You don't have a double chin usually, is the number one answer I get. My face looks slimmer. My eyes look bigger in the first one, like, in a good way.

A (65:20)

Everything I just said I can't.

B (65:22)

And so, and then I'm like, and what does, what does most of that mean? That means that that smaller is better. We've been conditioned to believe this. Now, what angle do you think your children and pets see you at the most?

A (65:33)

Oh, my gosh. The underneath one. They're always looking up at me.

B (65:35)

And do they love you any less because you have a double chin so much?

A (65:39)

Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm mama.

B (65:41)

And like, you have infinite angles. This is the thing. You have infinite angles. There's people seeing you from all sorts of different angles all the damn time. And, like, the reality is your accomplishments and who you are as a person didn't go away because of the angle of the camera. Like, you were still the same amazing human regardless of that. Right. And so it's like we have to break down again the expectation of. What was I expecting? So now when people do, like, selfies with me, I'm like, hey, we got a one shot selfie. We are not taking 500. We don't have. Our lives are too important. We got one shot. Whatever we look like, that's what we look like in that split second, and that's what we get. So. Yeah. Yeah. So what I in, in line with the, like, exposure therapy thing or looking at yourself, I encourage People to take that second photo and make it their home screen on their phone to look at more and more and more. And over time, you'll be like, yeah, I guess that's just what I look like.

A (66:35)

Yeah.

B (66:35)

From the angle. Like, it's not good or bad. It just is. And that's.

A (66:38)

That's a thing. Exposure therapy. Because I. I personally went through it.

B (66:43)

Yeah.

A (66:44)

You know, just with the. The job that I have now, with the videos and every podcasts and teaching, you know, just everything. And I. I'm glad it's a thing. Exposure therapy.

B (66:52)

Well, and the other thing that affects it too, like, is your mood. Mood. Like, I did a self portrait of one day. I was just, like, feeling shitty about my job. And, like, I was like, oh, I don't have any clients booking. Like, super positive. You know, we all go through it. It's a roller coaster. We know this. But I was like, you know what? I'm gonna do some self portraits to make myself feel better. No, that is not what happened. I took them and I was like, oh, these are terrible. Because I was stressed, which meant my brain was looking for negativity everywhere. And so that's all I saw. Shoved those photos away into a folder, and it was like, two weeks later. Life was good again because everything's temporary, but life is good again. And somebody was like, hey, we need, like, a headshot. So I went to the folder to find where all my self portraits are, and I came across those photos. I was like, oh, my God, look how cute my tongue looks. Like, oh, my gosh, that's super adorable. That's when I was like, wait a minute. The picture didn't change. It is the same photo. The only thing that changed is the mind that I had looking at it and the mood that I was in. So I encourage people if they're having a hard time looking at photos or things like that is like, eat something, drink some water, have a nap, and make sure you're not angry. And then do a little, like, meditation y thing to calm yourself down. Or, like, tense up your whole body for 30 seconds and let it go. That's a quick stress reliever. And then. And then look at your photos.

A (68:15)

Yeah. Good advice for sure.

B (68:18)

Yeah.

A (68:18)

Well, this has been really informative and empowering. So thank you. Thank you for sharing everything with us. I love it.

B (68:28)

Thank you for having me. This has been awesome.

A (68:29)

I do have a couple more questions for you, though, that I always ask at the end of each episode. And the first one is, what is something you can't live without. When you're doing a photo shoot.

B (68:38)

Oh, well, my camera, obviously, but that seems. Well, that's not true. I did it with a webcam.

A (68:44)

Good point.

B (68:44)

I would say, actually more than anything, literally, just like a sense of curiosity and exploration for me. And I know that's not like a tangible thing, and maybe that's what you meant, but, like, for me, if I can make anything work if I'm curious enough. Yeah. Like when. When I forget a battery, I will find a way to find a battery. You know, like, I will make it work.

A (69:06)

Yep. Yeah. That's awesome. It's a great skill to have.

B (69:09)

Yeah, It's a good one. Because then it's like, okay, well, I mean, don't worry. I still panic, but I'm like, we'll figure it out. It out. We'll figure it out.

A (69:16)

Yeah.

B (69:16)

Yeah.

A (69:16)

I love it. Okay, number two is how do you. I'm like, I always ask these questions and I still have to think about it. How do you spend your time when you are not working?

B (69:26)

Oh, sleeping. Do we not work? Is that. Is that a thing? I. Probably not a lot, actually. I do work a lot, but I would say I like to be outside if I can. I like to get out in nature. And reading. I love to read, like, a lot. And writing, like journaling. I do art journaling and stuff like that. Cool.

A (69:50)

And then number three is, what's your favorite inspirational quote?

B (69:53)

Ah, yes. I wrote it down before so I would know it. Disappointment exists in the gap between expectation and reality. By John C. Maxwell. The other good one is you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. By Jim Rohn. And all of those. Those are. Yeah, that's basically like the cornerstones of my life.

A (70:13)

Yes, definitely. Good quotes to live by. I sure do. Yeah. Okay, Number four is, what would you tell people who are just starting out in business?

B (70:25)

I would say, try everything once, but be very. Be very clear on why you're doing what you're doing and. And revisit that every three months. Because it is going to change or niche down or whatever, but it's very easy. Especially now, at least. Like, when I started, there was no Facebook groups, so I kind of had to figure it out on my own, which was good. But now I can see people coming in. They're like, I need the course. I need. Tell me what to do. Da da da, da, da. And there's no exploration of it. And so the imposter syndrome is really high in a lot of creatives. Right now. And the best way to get out of that is to just refocusing every few months on why am I doing this, who am I doing this for and staying focused on that, not worrying about other photographers.

A (71:15)

Yes, I love that, Terri. Love that. And last but not least, where can people find you online?

B (71:22)

Oh sure. Instagram is probably where I'm the most, you know, active. Probably erryhofford1r&o. Yeah, at the end. And on my website, terryhofford and Facebook. I do have a Facebook community for photographers that want to learn more about diversifying the bodies in the media as well as confronting their own body image issues and mindset. Good stuff. And that is under beyond the body mindset and body image coaching.

A (71:55)

Awesome. Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you again and yes, it's been great. Hopefully we'll get to meet in person one day.

B (72:02)

Yes, I hope so. Yeah. Awesome.

A (72:06)

Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System podcast. Your 5 star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to sue briceducation.com where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1, 000 on demand educational videos on things like posing, lens, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business and self value. There's also the 90 day startup challenge plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to do checklists for your business, lighting, PDFs. I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once Again, that's Sue briceducation.com.