← The Portrait System Podcast
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- [00:01]
Nikki Klosser
Hey there, it's Nikki Klosser and I want to let you know about an awesome free giveaway for people on our email list. If you haven't already, click the link in our podcast description or go to theportraitsystem.com signup to get on the list. If you sign up, you'll get a free posing 101 PDF to jumpstart things. It's an epic PDF, so you'll definitely want to get this. Also, just by being in our email community, you'll get deals, sales, and information about any of our upcoming events and activities. So head over to theportraitsystem.com signup and sign up. Today you're listening to the Portrait System podcast.
- [00:35]
Mary Vance
They just want to feel seen, right, which is very different. And so that, you know, kind of aspect plays in with everything that I do in terms of my marketing, you know, and how I talk to the clients at the session itself, how I communicate with them.
- [00:52]
Nikki Klosser
Welcome to the Portrait System Podcast. I'm your host, Nikki Klosser, and this show is here to help you succeed in the world of photography and business. To help you learn to become financially free during what you love and so much more. With over 1 million downloads, countless photographers have taken what they've learned from both our episodes and from theportraitsystem.com and they have grown their businesses, quit their day jobs and are designing a life of their dreams. We keep it real and share stories about the ups and downs that come with running a photography business. You'll hear real life stories of how other photographers run their business and you'll learn actionable steps that you can take to reach your own goals. Thank you so much for being here. And let's get started. Hey everyone, it's Nikki Klosser here and my guest this week on the Portrait System podcast is Mary Vance. Mary is a senior photographer who also includes videos in her packages and she shares all about how she blends these things, which boosts her sales big time. Something Mary focuses on heavily in her business is that she photographs all teens and she makes it very clear that she's inclusive of gender fluidity and neurodiversity. And she will absolutely photograph her clients how they are now and make sure they are very comfortable. Mary talks with us about how she markets to her clients and to their parents with a genuine passion for the work she does and she gets a ton of bookings because of it. All right, let's get started with Mary Vance. Hi Mary, welcome to the Portrait System. How you Doing?
- [02:17]
Mary Vance
Oh, fine, thanks. Really happy to be here today.
- [02:20]
Nikki Klosser
I'm happy to have you here too. I know we've chatted at WPPI and I know that you are speaking again at wppi, which is very exciting in March.
- [02:29]
Mary Vance
Oh, yeah, I love it there. It's just this amazing vibe and community. It's one of the highlights, honestly, of my entire year. It's, you know, the time we all get to like, kind of go and see all of your industry peers and co workers and good friends that you, you know, just follow on Instagram and like, keep up with each other. But to actually be able to be there in person, you know, with. With all of these amazing, amazing educators, it's, it's. Yeah, it's the highlight of my year for sure.
- [03:00]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, yeah, I love it too. I can't wait. It's so fun and just to learn from so many people as well, like that networking and the parties and seeing all, you know, friends and making new friends. Like, I've made lifelong friends from, you know, conferences like this, but. And then, you know, the learning too. So.
- [03:15]
Mary Vance
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
- [03:16]
Nikki Klosser
It'll be fun. And I love that I get to meet. Meet different photographers to end up having on the podcast too. So that works great.
- [03:23]
Mary Vance
Yeah.
- [03:24]
Nikki Klosser
Okay. Now, I know you're an educator, but you are obviously a photographer first and you have a very active business, you know, pays the bills, all the things. So I don't want people to think that it's, you know, just educator. And that's all it is. You know, I don't, I don't ever want people to have the wrong idea about that. The educators that I interview also have very active businesses, so I just kind of wanted to put that out there.
- [03:45]
Mary Vance
We're doing the day, we're in the trenches. We're still doing the day to day work. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
- [03:51]
Nikki Klosser
I just sent out a quote today that made me sweat. It's like it's still after all these years, you know, so. All right, let's kind of start maybe a little bit kind of at the beginning. Like, how did you. How did you get into photography or, you know, how did you start your business?
- [04:08]
Mary Vance
Yeah, I actually, I didn't have a background in photography at all by education. My degree is highly technical science, biochemistry and genetics, and I took that and they kind of, they kind of do a little head turn like. Like what? Like. But I've worked in the Arts for 20 years, so I grew up as a dancer and, you know, and then started teaching dance and I taught Dance for a decade, all through college and until I moved from North Carolina to Seattle. And when I moved, I had two little kids and moving with husband's job and stuff like that, and I couldn't keep up with the dance career, so I had to let that piece of myself go. And it took about a year of being in Seattle. And, you know, you've been in that area a lot. I know, too, where it's very gray, and 10 months out of the year, you know, it's like, are we ever going to see the sunshine? And I honestly just found myself in a creative rut because I was used to choreographing motion and music and teaching class and interacting with people. And that creative side of me that, you know, even though it wasn't my degree, my technical training. Right. That creative side of me really just needed to be fed. And so I found photography with that. And at first, you know, it kind of started out like, I think I called one of my friends who's a wedding photographer in North Hollywood, and I said, I need a camera that moves as fast as my child does. And I didn't even know what shutter speed meant. I had no idea. I was like, all my photos are just a blur. That was literally what we called this kid. We're like, this kid is the. The blur because you can never get a good photo of them. And so, you know, I called her and I said, give me something that moves as fast. And so she helped me buy my first camera. And that was 14 years ago. So I pretty quickly realized that I actually don't have a passion for photographing littles. My own littles. It was kind of tedious. Even though they were my own children, I was like, no, thank you. Yep. They just. They had no patience. I mean, zero. Less than zero patience for me trying to fumble through settings and figure out what the heck I was doing with my camera. So what I was also doing at the time, though, and this is something that I've done for over 20 years now, was mentoring youth and teens. And whereas my own small children had zero patience for me to sit there and fumble with settings and whatnot, my teens actually loved it. They were like, oh, you want to try something? Oh, you got a new lens? Oh, you want to do this? And they were just so in it and so invested in it that they naturally became my first subjects. And so that's kind of how I got started in photography. And it took a little bit. And then, yeah, some of those same kids that, you know, I had been Mentoring, when they were in the 9th and 10th grade, were coming back to me as seniors and saying, like, well, I have such a good relationship with you. I don't want anybody else, you know, even somebody who has more experience with me with photography. They wanted me to come in and take your senior photos because they're like, because I trust you. And so that was the kind of the beginning of, I guess, my bigger sense of purpose and mission when it came to my photography business. So I niched down pretty quickly and have loved every single minute of being a senior photographer since then.
- [07:38]
Nikki Klosser
This all makes so much sense when I think about your business now because you're heavily in the senior market. And we've got a couple different things that I want to incorporate during this interview that I know listeners will really benefit from. One being that you include video with your seniors and that can be translated across genres, not just with seniors, but I just wanted to mention that. And then also something that you said when we were kind of prepping to get started is that you are the photographer for the 99% of the other kids who don't fit the typical mold of like, you know, the cheerleader football team. And you are very inclusive of, you know, kids who have gender fluidity and neurodiversity and all of those super, super important things that I think some kids shy away from getting their senior photos done for a multitude of reasons because they don't fit in that small percent of like the gorgeous model Y looking. You know what I mean?
- [08:38]
Mary Vance
Yeah.
- [08:38]
Nikki Klosser
So it's hearing that kind of backside to your story that at all makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
- [08:46]
Mary Vance
And you know, and I always say, like, you know, for a while there, the education was always, well, you have to make them feel like they're a model. And I'm like, but that's, that's really not some of these kids aspirations, you know. Right.
- [09:03]
Nikki Klosser
Not everyone wants to be a model.
- [09:05]
Mary Vance
Yeah, they don't want to. They honestly, they just want. They just want to feel seen. Right. Which is very different. And so that, you know, kind of aspect plays in with everything that I do in terms of my marketing, you know, and how I talk to the clients at the session itself, how I communicate with them, what I put forward with my brand. And yeah. So everything just says, I'm safe, you are safe with me. Right. And I'm not going to make you force you into something that is not you. I see you and I understand you and I respect you.
- [09:42]
Nikki Klosser
I love that. How do you incorporate that into your marketing? Like, is it, you know, you're using your own video where you're talking about it? Are you putting text on your website? Are you talking to people in the community? Like, how do you get it out there?
- [09:57]
Mary Vance
Yeah, I'm honestly, as best as I can, I'm attempting every day to walk the walk. Right. In addition to talking the talk. So I do. And I recommend this for people. I do write about it. I will write blogs about it. I will write. Okay. I'll teach posing classes that are geared towards. So that other senior photographers can learn how to pose for gender neutrality, for example, as opposed to this. Always like. Like, we always have the teenage girl laying out, you know, like laying down in a vulnerable position kind of thing. Or always shoot from above, you know, for teenager. Make them look small or weak or, you know, whatever. Whatever. Those. You know what I mean? Those kinds of things. Like. Like shoot up at a guy to make him appear more strong, you know, and then. And I just. Especially in the area that, you know, I was growing my business in and in Washington. Yeah, that just wasn't going to fly for the community. And so knowing your audience, I guess, is a big thing. So I do talk about it. I write about it in blogs. I've gone straight to camera a few times. One particularly impactful time that I went straight to camera and put this out, and I'm like, I want this to live in my space. And I want to be able to say, this was after a photo shoot and I had a trans kiddo, and this trans kiddo used they. Them pronouns. And it was the first time that they had been photographed as themselves. And so that was obviously very, very special. And I had photographed their older sibling a couple of years before, and mom was like, I just know that you were the person to do this. And we're so excited that they're going to be able to finally be themselves, you know, and that we'll have memories of them that look like this. And so after that, I was really impacted by it because what I was thinking of was, was the older sibling, you know, and these older kids whose photos I have already taken. And so I went straight to camera one night and I said, look, if you identify differently now, if it's three, four, five years later and you are completely a different person than you were when we did your senior photos come back to me. And I just. I just. I said, come. I said, come back to me. I was like, I will. I honestly, I didn't say I would do it for free, but I probably would have, you know, and so putting that piece out there, writing stuff about neurodiversity and inclusion and how I've worked with them. I'm very proud about how I am an inclusive business. And so, yeah, like, it goes across all the channels and it comes out in my daily life as well. My own kid is. Uses they. Them pronouns and is gender fluid. And so even with my own child, you know, I'm. Anytime I'm posting things, which I don't post a whole lot about my own kids on, you know, my business pages and stuff like that, but I'm always using the correct pronouns. I'm always, you know, referring to them the way that they want to be referred to and stuff like that. So it's. Yeah, it's there. It's. It permeates kind of everything. I didn't set out thinking that I would be the person who was. That this specific type of advocacy would be so close to my heart. I honestly thought that women's issues would be the advocacy that I would feel the most, you know, drawn to in my business. And then, no, this one came along, and I just realized there's such a need and there's such a heart for it, and it really. Honestly, it really captured my attention and passion. So. So, yeah, it permeates every. Every piece of my business, every piece of my marketing. If I come on a podcast, I'll be talking about it. You know, I'm like, if you're in one of my classrooms, I'll be talking about it. If you're reading my blog or any of the articles that I've written for Rangefinder or any other sources like that, I'm putting it out there. I'm not shying away from it, but hopefully I'm also doing it in a way that's very kind and welcoming.
- [13:58]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah. Well, not only does this benefit a large community of children who are going to be so comfortable with you and feel like they can be themselves and they don't have to try and fit this mold that society has, you know, created for people. Like, there's that benefit that you can be a safe space for these kids, for their families, you know, to really just have a great experience with their photo shoot, you know, obviously, that's super important. And then when it comes to the business side, like you said, when you have a niche there, I feel like people are going to talk to each other in their community, and they're going to say, like, mary's your girl. You know, you're like, do you find that you get referrals, word of mouth because of. Of your inclusivity and just everything you offer.
- [14:43]
Mary Vance
Absolutely. And I'll tell you, like I said, the previous advice used to be like, you've got to get that one popular kid or something like that. Last year, I had a neurodiverse kid who came to me, and that wouldn't have been what kind of this. The say, like, kind of the old mentality of senior marketing. You know, it was like, get. You know, get the one popular kid, then they're going to tell all their friends about you. You know, I photographed a neurodivergent. I just showed up and I did exactly what I needed to do. You know, this kiddo had autism, and I didn't know. I'd never met him, obviously, before the shoot. I never meet any of my seniors before their session. And all I knew is his mom said he has autism and he likes Dungeons and Dragons. And so that was it. And so I just went to the shoot and did the whole session the way that I would, you know, that I would do any of them, which was just really focusing on the person that's in front of me and what their needs are and being kind and inclusive to him. His mother sent me six referrals.
- [15:56]
Nikki Klosser
Wow.
- [15:58]
Mary Vance
That year I'm like, six seniors. That is. You can't. There's really nothing that you can do that can get you that kind of marketing. And it's not a ploy, you know, it's genuine. No, but then again, you know, like, this year. And so that was last season. This season, I've already had five more contacts from that same family because the level of satisfaction was so high with that that they just can't help but say, hey, you know what she is. She does really well with Neurodiverse. And yes, you know, like, my kid went to a special school, you know, that specifically had great resources for kids that are autistic. And so, like, of course she's going to be sending more people my way. And those are kind of markets that you. You don't network your way into, I guess, is what I would say. Right. Like, those are the kinds of places that you can only come in through connection. Genuine human connection.
- [16:56]
Nikki Klosser
Genuine. Yeah, exactly. And I don't want people out there, you know, to think like, oh, man, okay, I need to start photographing kids with autism. Like, it has to come from the heart. It truly has to be genuine. And there are, like, think about, you know, listeners out there. Think about what is it that you're passionate like, about. Are there. Is there any sort of, you know, community within our larger community that needs you and that you feel passionate about, that you know, you can help? Like, I mean, using autism as an example. I used to be a school social worker, and I taught kids with autism, and I started a nonprofit for advocating for kids and families with autism in developing countries and that sort of thing. And firsthand, I saw how connected, because, okay, let me. As parents, we're looking for other parents who are experiencing similar things to help us, you know, to guide us and to support other families and that sort of thing. So, you know, any part of our community that is marginalized or unrepresented, you know, is. They all need photos too. You know, you can genuinely make a connection with people, you know, not just to get business, but truly, it can be really, really amazing for everyone involved.
- [18:20]
Mary Vance
And I do. I always tell people, you know, they might say, like, oh, well, you know, I don't know how to work with maybe, like, differently abled bodies or something like that. I'm like, that's okay. That might not be, you know, your shtick. I have a good friend of mine who only focuses on doing the epic sports pieces because he was like, you know, he was an epic sport player, and so he understands, and he can speak that language, you know, but there's. There's so many different differentiators that if at that point that becomes the thing that's on your heart, then, like, market to that, right? Like you said, you know, like, it might not be neurodiversity. I did not expect gender inclusion to be the cause that would have my heart. Right? And then it was in my. It was in my own home. And even before that, I think my kid felt safe enough with us because they saw how genuinely I was showing up for other people that were already in that community. And so, you know, like, we didn't have, like, a big, you know, like a. Like a big dramatic coming out that was, you know, like, traumatizing kind of thing, because they already knew. Like, oh, no, my parents are cool with.
- [19:37]
Nikki Klosser
That.
- [19:37]
Mary Vance
And they're like. They literally have seen me be on camera and say, like, if you're transgender and you look differently now than you did when you did your senior photos. Come back. I'll take them, you know, like. Like, come back to me. And they had already seen that, so they knew. And so that, I think, too, is, you know, like I said, you never know where your cause and where your heart and where your passion is going to come, but when you Approach your, your niche and your business from that perspective of what, what is my value? Like, what are my values? And instead of what are the dollar signs, you know, the money follows.
- [20:14]
Nikki Klosser
Absolutely.
- [20:14]
Mary Vance
The money comes, you know, and the clients come. And I haven't had, I, I sell out months and months before my season even starts. I have a very, very tight senior season because we have late graduation, so our kids don't graduate until like the end of June. And so my season starts the beginning of July once that, that class of juniors has actually become seniors. And then it has to wrap up by about October because we were running to yearbook dead. The rain. And it gets very, the weather very early. Yeah. And stuff like that. So I have a very tight season, but I'm, I release my calendar every year in March and I'm sold out, you know, long before those kids are even seniors. So the good news about that is that I have also managed to, you know, have a network of friends who I can send referrals out to who through working with them, you know, some of them in a teaching, mentoring capacity and stuff like that. But even just right in my own area, working with them and my elevation of this type of advocacy, now I have a network of friends that I can say, well, you know what? I know that this person works, you know, like, they think the same way that I do. Right. Like, I know that you'll be safe with them too. I know that you'll be safe with them too. And so then I get to spread the love. But yeah, I'm sold out every year. And that is, that's a beautiful, beautiful place to be in your business. And like I said, when you lead with the values and the passion and the heart, then the clients and the money, it does fall. I know that sounds a little hippie woo woo, but it does.
- [21:47]
Nikki Klosser
Before we move on to how you do your business and include video and all of that, one more thing about the whole marketing piece. My family and I went to Beaches Negril in Jamaica two years ago. And if you go to the Beaches Negril website, it's not like they are screaming everywhere that we are like autism friendly, special needs friendly at a resort. They don't even, I don't even think they have to advertise that because I think word between families spreads so fast. Like there was a Sesame street character that has autism and it was her birthday at the resort. So everything was very sensory. Like we couldn't scream or clap. You know, it was just very inclusive of kids with autism. They have Some of their childcare, like their staff is trained to work with kids with autism, that sort of thing. Again, this is not all over their website, but I guarantee you they are booked solid with families who need this, who think, like, okay, I can go to this resort with my child and feel safe and that they're going to be taken care of. And I know that it's, you know, they're not screaming it everywhere, but these families are talking to each other and they're going there specifically because of that. So it's like, I don't even know. It's just like you said, it's not about the dollar signs. And who knows even why Beaches Negril started to do this? Maybe there was a very personal connection from one of their owners or something like that, I don't know. But it has spread like wildfire among families who have kids with autism.
- [23:21]
Mary Vance
You're right. The marketing. If I'm applying as an educator for a conference, in my pitch, I want the people who, you know, who are the decision makers, right? Like. Like when I apply for WPPI or, you know, any of these other conferences that I go and speak at, I want the people who are reading the pitch to know very quickly what I'm about, right? But these industry people that I'm talking to in that, in that case, as opposed to when I'm photographer Mary and I'm talking to my clients. So, for example, on my website, and I'm just going to read you a little piece of what is written on my website. And nowhere in there are the words, you know, inclusion or neurodiversity or gender or anything like that invitation. And so what I say on my page, and I've had this on here for a very long time, and I know that you're supposed to update your copy and blah, blah, blah, but anyway, this, this works. And it is still to this day, like, I stand by every single word of it. And what I say is, I invite you to come in and wander, discover natural portraits and films starring seniors turned friends. Imagine what the next year in your life will hold. Are you artistic, athletic? Determined, introverted? Whether you're the lead in the school play or barely scraping by in math, I'm here to embrace that identity. I want to see the authentic version of you. And there's no fake booking allowed.
- [24:46]
Nikki Klosser
I love that.
- [24:47]
Mary Vance
I don't say anywhere in the. I work with autistic kids, you know, or kids who have OCD or high functioning anxiety. I don't say any of that.
- [24:57]
Nikki Klosser
Mm. It's very clear, though, with what you said, that. Yeah, it's. It. That was. That was such a good way to kind of wrap that up. That was exactly. That's exactly right. It's. It's. Because it comes from the heart and it is genuine and it's not. Yeah, I love it. It's perfect. And I. And I can see why you haven't updated it.
- [25:19]
Mary Vance
It's also the picture. The picture that's behind that is that. And saw my homepage, and I'll keep her on my homepage forever. But it was my. My very first paid senior client and she. All of her other friends were doing, you know, as somebody else. They're like, everybody else is going with somebody else. And. And she said, but I. And she came up to me and she just approached me at that youth group one night. She was like, but I can't imagine having anybody else, you know, share this moment with me. So will you please take my senior photos? And I was like, oh, I know. And I have. I've been doing this for so long now that I have kids that, that, you know, I have to call Dr. Now. And people, you know, married and having kiddos and, and just living and changing the world, and they're just awesome, amazing human beings. And so, so, yeah, I keep, I keep her on my homepage and I keep that right there because, yeah, it's just, it's like my little tribute and memory right there.
- [26:26]
Nikki Klosser
Amazing. I love it. Okay, so now let's move into a little bit of the more businessy side of things. So I know that you include video for your senior shoots and not a lot of people do that. So how does all of that work?
- [26:41]
Mary Vance
Yeah, so video is, oh, gosh, especially in the senior market. And, you know, if you hear me speaking at any conferences this year, I'm going to be teaching. Actually, we're going to be doing a photo walk on it at WPPI this year. I am so excited about that because my goal for all, every single participant is for them to walk away and to be able to have a film that they can put in their portfolio that day. Fingers crossed. We're going to see. I'm pretty sure we're going to get it done. But I love, love, love incorporating video. Nobody else does it, and nobody else does it the way that I do it, that I have run across. So there are two ways, the main two ways that I incorporate video, either what I call a hybrid, which means that at your session, I'm going to be taking stills and video that's, that's a hybrid video that is honestly the sweetest of sweet spots. It's a moneymaker and I love it. The other way that I do it is what I call a feature film. Feature film is a lot more investment in time and in planning. But that also means you can, you can really demand a premium price, right. For it. So on my seniors intake form, it's basically just, just power of suggestion in the, in the marketing of it, right. So I just had a tick box on there. Do you want to include a senior film in your session? Just the same way that I say, do you want to add on family photos? And it's just one of those things. It's just such an easy check. Yes, okay.
- [28:08]
Nikki Klosser
Of course I do.
- [28:10]
Mary Vance
Yeah, of course. Of course I do. Do you know. Okay, so with your senior film, do you want to include a senior film? Yes or no? Yes, I do. Do you want it at your session? And here's the price. And so they see that there's a lot like a lower price tag for it at the session or do you want to do it on a different day by yourself? Okay. And they'll see there's that feature film price. But practically the difference for me is that I can take like, let's say I had, you know, like a $500 senior, right. That this client was going to be $500 client, right? Which, you know, different markets, different prices for what's what, you know, and whatnot. That Same senior, that 500 senior, if they add a film on, becomes a 1500 senior. So 3X, you know, 3Xing from your entry level package, just with the power of suggestion and being able to just show a few of those, that's huge. So the hybrid, it's not, not at all. The perceived value of video is so much higher because people can't edit video themselves. Right? Now, I know that reels and TikTok and you know, and shorts on YouTube and stuff. Like, I know that there are so many programs that have made video editing more accessible, but there's a bigger difference in what the average person thinks that they can accomplish with photography versus videography. Does that make sense?
- [29:36]
Nikki Klosser
Absolutely, it makes sense. Yes.
- [29:38]
Mary Vance
So because that perceived value is so high for your client then, because this is something that they really can't do. They really don't understand how to capture clean audio. Right. They really don't know how to have an interview and bring out the best pieces of a person and how to do a storyline and tell that through. Right. But our cameras Our phones made quote unquote, everybody a photographer.
- [30:03]
Nikki Klosser
Haha.
- [30:03]
Mary Vance
All the professional photographers laugh at that. We go, yeah, they're never going to take my job because I know what I know how to do. Right? So but the. But then what you're fighting against then still is there are some clients that will have a perception issue, right? Well, you're just quote unquote taking a photo. Whereas the perception of video is, it is much harder. It is, it can be, it can be more difficult. And I think the editing piece of video is probably what scares the most photographers off of offering it. The statistic that I let me think, I want to say it was two years ago at wppi. You know, they do the kind of the post show wrap up in terms of. And they give you demographics for what everybody said, you know, like what boxes do you check? Are you a hobbyist? Are you this or you're this or you're this? Only 32% that year of photographers who had the ability to offer video were offering it. And I'm like, if you want to talk about how do I set myself apart from my competition? That's it right there.
- [31:08]
Nikki Klosser
Absolutely. A great way. Hey, just a quick break to tell you that since you're here listening, you have access to a really great offer for our listeners. Listeners only. We have a special promo code you can use to get 50% off the cost of membership. Just go to theportraitsystem.com or click the link in the description and use the promo code PODCAST50 to get 50% off of a membership. We rarely discount memberships, so this is a big deal. As I hope you already know, the membership is how I and so many guests on this podcast reached our success. And it gives you access to countless amazing videos and awesome community and all the tools you need to build a massively successful business. So use the code podcast50Now to join the community and to start building the business of your dreams. I'll see you there. That is for sure. Why do you think that is that more people don't offer it?
- [32:01]
Mary Vance
Editing is scary for a lot of people and it's overwhelming. It's like if you, and maybe you did. I don't know, you know, I don't know necessarily all of your background, but you know, it's like when Lightroom and when Lightroom first came out, Lightroom was designed to be Photoshop's little, you know, little kid sister. That was just easier because it was all sliders and you could slide, you know, slide stuff back and forth Whereas Photoshop felt like this behemoth and what am I doing with layers? And this is an intuitive. And you know, and you can in Photoshop, right. Like, if you want to do one thing, there are easily 10 different ways that you can accomplish it. Right. Whereas Lightroom was a little bit more like, oh, okay. And so it took down that entry barrier. And I haven't seen. Well, actually now with AI coming up, there are some, some really interesting things that, you know, are, I think eliminating some barriers. But I just didn't see with video as much of a. An entry point, an easy entry point, I guess. And so I think that's what scares a lot of photographers off from offering it. I know that some of them are scared, especially if they're doing the two sessions at the same time, like, oh, I'm going to miss this shot, or oh, I'm going to do this or that, or, you know, what have you. And that's just practice. But yeah, if you can get over that, you know, like that editing hump, I think, which is the biggest one, you have the gear to do it, you know, like, why not?
- [33:42]
Nikki Klosser
Especially nowadays, like I have the Canon R6 and it autofocuses in video. Like when I had the Mark 3, I was just like, oh my gosh, this is hard. When I got that R6, I was like, yes, please. This is amazing with video.
- [34:00]
Mary Vance
That was. Video was the reason I switched over to Mirrorless, because I thought, no, I really like my SLR. Really like my SLRs. But now I keep two Nikon Z7IIs, one on each hip. And the video is just Chef's Kiss. I mean, it is. Yeah, it's amazing. And the tracking features as well are really, really just. Yeah. So there are, there are tools, there's all kinds of things and yeah. That are making our lives easier, I guess. And so anything that will lower an entry barrier, I'm here for it.
- [34:34]
Nikki Klosser
In business now, doing the shoots. So you're doing video and photo at the same time? It's just you and your two camera bodies.
- [34:42]
Mary Vance
Yep.
- [34:43]
Nikki Klosser
Okay, now as far as like the flow of this session, are you just constantly changing back and forth from video to stills?
- [34:54]
Mary Vance
Yeah, usually what I'll do, let's say. So my lowest package for seniors is two outfits. So let's say that they come in and they have the two outfit package and they're going to add a video. Okay. So what I'll do is I'll photograph them shooting photos and what's essentially going to be. Be real in their first outfit and then I'll have them go change into their second outfit. And while they're changing, I will set up. Now I do bring at this point and I know not everybody shoots on two cameras, you know, and stuff like that, but I do. And I'll bring a tripod for this part. And so what I do is in between after they come back and after they're dressed, I'm already set up just tripod one of the cameras and I'm going to handhold and monopod the other camera. And I'm not taking any photos during that point, but I am going to interview them. And one of the things that I do before their session is that I send them a questionnaire and I say fill out as many of these, you know, as you want. Be really detailed and specific. And that questionnaire is driven at getting them in kind of a nostalgic mood in some ways. I want them to start reflecting on where they've been and I want them to also start projecting. So questions about like, where are you going? And these questions are also, they're very open ended, right? So I'm not saying what college are you going to go to? Right? Because that might not be a path for everybody, right? It's okay, okay, you've graduated, what's your next step? Right? Like, do you have any ideas about this, about that? So I want them to be nostalgic and to be reminiscing. And then I also want them to be projecting and dreaming and thinking forward in the future. I make them, make them, I have them send that, their responses to me before the session. And then I go through and I pull out the pieces that I think will make the most compelling story. And so when I go and I sit down to have that little interview, it adds about 20 minutes to their session time on the actual, you know, on site, on location time. And I just do a little interview. And so I have them, you know, tell me the things, you know, I ask them the same questions and I say, okay, all I want you to do is just. I was like, you know, give me that exact same answer. But we're going to do it, you know, like you're starting a sentence, not like somebody asked you a question. You know, I have them do that and then we go and we finish up and we photograph the second, the second outfit. So with photography and with posing and stuff like that, movement is kind of big. In my posing workflow, I have a whole series of walking poses and stuff that if a person, if I feel like they're bodily able and conditions are safe for it. Then we'll do a lot of that. And so a lot of times when I'm filming video and photo, I'll just say, I'll click over, okay, I got the photo. I'll click back over to video. Okay, now do the exact same thing again. I don't just get it in video. Right. So there's a little bit of a repeat. It is nice having, you know, two cameras, but you could certainly do it with one very, very easily. And some people might even find that that, you know, forces them to be more creative. Because if they're only working with one camera and one lens, right. Then you need to work the angles a little bit more. So, yeah, I have all of my B roll and then I have my interview and I come home, I upload the footage, I send it to my editor, and then within three to four days, I have a finished video project for them.
- [38:30]
Nikki Klosser
Wow. And how long did you say that each video ends up being about?
- [38:34]
Mary Vance
Yeah, the hybrid videos are usually four to five minutes. Those are the ones with that I'm actually filming at on location in the session. The feature films are longer. They are significantly longer. And those, it is a different process. So we'll have a planning meeting with those. They'll still fill out the exact same questionnaire. But what I like to get is three different locations about that. A lot of times what I have for those feature films are going to be it usually is an athlete who has a little bit more story to tell in that. And in a way, I guess that video, you know, would be more conducive to. So if that's the case, like, you know, like basketball game, okay, I went to basketball game on senior night, you know, or a dancer, okay. You know, like, like we get there and actually like do some filming, you know, while they're in studio or something like that. And so I like to have some footage and if we knew about it at their senior session and then they want a feature film later, I'll film some B roll at senior session too, you know, because they look nice and they're in clothing that they love. But usually I' to film them doing something that they love by themselves. A little bit is included sometimes with like some of their family, you know, like, like you could do, I don't know, even if they didn't have like a sport or hobby or something, but like their whole family love to cook Friday night dinner together, you know, or something like that, then you could come and you could film and add those pieces. And those films are very unique, and they are more labor intensive, but still very, very. I mean, and because of that, again, that perceived value, you can really command a high price on those videos.
- [40:23]
Nikki Klosser
What are you using to edit your videos? Like, what program?
- [40:26]
Mary Vance
Yeah, I edit in Premiere Pro, but as I said, I have an editor and my editor. They're phenomenal, and they're very, very fast and they're very detailed. And so I have a set of instructions that I usually put on each one. And then if I have specific areas that I want to focus on, I send it off to them, and then they just. They do it. I learned editing, you know, I know a lot about really intense level color grading and audio, you know, Yeah, I did a lot of that. And like, I said, that to me, becomes one of the barriers that for other photographers for actually getting in and being able to offer video. And so I always tell them, I will for you. I'm like, here. Here are my editors. Like, please go. I'm like, let them do it. Let them do this piece for you. You know, like, if I do a brand video, I do is a scripting. I studied with Patrice Pulitzer for scripting. She's a former Today show host.
- [41:26]
Nikki Klosser
Oh, cool.
- [41:27]
Mary Vance
Or producer. Former Today. Today show producer. And so I learned storytelling from her, and I took her video storytelling workshop and stuff like that years and years ago. And so, like, if I'm going to do a brand video, which honestly, incorporating this into senior photography, it's like your first branding session, you know, like, who are you? Who is this kid? Who is this kid? Who is this human? Right. Well, so for a brand video, I script the entire thing beforehand because I want, you know, I want to hit those hooks, those pain points. We want to hit every little piece that we know that they're going to need. So every word of the audio is going to be scripted ahead of time. I'll just send in my script. Literally, I'll just send in the script to the editor, and they send it right back and they say, okay, I want you to do this. Add in this, add in this. Here's the script. It needs to follow like this, and they'll pop it together. And like I said, just a few days. I love my editors for video so much because that was the thing, like, getting an editor for video. It's ridiculously cost effective as well. And that was the thing that took it from, like, oh, when am I going to have the time to pull and tease through every bit of all this video? Footage that I probably overshot anyway. You know, like he probably filmed like three times as much as I need for this video. And. And they are so fast about going through it.
- [42:46]
Nikki Klosser
They are so fast.
- [42:47]
Mary Vance
It's priceless.
- [42:49]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah.
- [42:50]
Mary Vance
But it makes it obtainable if you don't have, you know, years to study the every piece of the storytelling and all the ins and outs. Premiere Pro is like that analogy I was giving about Photoshop before. Premiere Pro is a behemoth. It is. There's so much that you can do in there. And that's why, like I said, I think it becomes prohibitive for people. It's too complicated. And when faced with, you know, we're all stretched too thin and too busy every day, you know, that is this life right now. It's a barrier. And so yeah, having the editors allows me to bypass that barrier.
- [43:32]
Nikki Klosser
So yeah, I mean, it's just like a retoucher. I would not be able to survive without a retoucher, without a video editor. I mean, yeah, if you look at, if you look at the amount of time, if you're not familiar and if this is not your jam to edit video, it is so worth it to have someone who does it. They will bust that out like. Yeah, that's awesome.
- [43:52]
Mary Vance
Yeah. And what I'll say about that as well is if I charge $1,000 for a hybrid film, I've added 20 minutes to their session time and on the back end for me to upload and get it to the editors and do like final proofing, you know, and the little bits and pieces that I have, it's about 30 extra minutes. So grand total. I'm adding an hour to my like in time investment with this client. Then I charge $1,000 for that video. Just keep it easy. Math. Right. So we'll just say if it was a $500 client, now they're a 1500 dollar client. I have had to put in one hour more worth of work. And the cost to pay my video editors would be like a hundred bucks for that video.
- [44:40]
Nikki Klosser
Wow. I mean, and that was my next question was you had mentioned before that it kind of triples your sales. Yeah, that is sounds very worth it. Very worth it.
- [44:50]
Mary Vance
And I'm just using for that, you know, again, I'm just using easy numbers. I know that everybody's market is a little bit different and some people do have a very luxury, you know, like there's a photographer in my area that I taught my methods for how to work with seniors and she. But she wants a very luxury high End brand. And so she uses my same techniques and she has $5,000 seniors. Right. And when I first started out, I had $500 seniors, you know, and I was thrilled with that kind of thing. So. So pricing for everybody is very different. And I'm just using this in terms of, you know, like easy numbers. Right. Because it's easy to say, okay, that was a $500 client and now they're a fifteen hundred dollar client. Right. With only one hour and one hundred bucks worth of overhead. That's what came out of that.
- [45:34]
Nikki Klosser
And in a priceless thing for the family to have.
- [45:38]
Mary Vance
So priceless. It's like, wow.
- [45:40]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, that's incredible. I wish I had something like that when I was a senior, you know, that'd be amazing.
- [45:46]
Mary Vance
You know, I got a little bit of pushback from the video communities that I was in, you know, kind of at the beginning. And they were like, I don't think, I don't think moms are gonna buy that. They just don't, you know, it's not like a newborn or a birth film or something. And basically what they said was the parents just don't care that much about their kids once they're. Once they're teenager. And so I showed them one of my videos and like, you know, and I remember my friend Kels is, you know, she has like tears in her eyes afterwards and, and she was like, how, how could you not have this? She said, I have to have this for my children. And her children are like four and six right now. And she's like, I already know I have to have this. And she said, I can't believe that. I thought, no, nobody would buy that. I was like, then you see it and you're like, oh my gosh. And so, yeah, yeah, it is. It's a wonderful way to capture a milestone moment because photography is milestone photography. Yeah.
- [46:43]
Nikki Klosser
If you're out there listening, thinking, well, I don't even have anything to show people of how to do this. Make one. Find someone to make one with so that you have an example to show people what it is that they'll be getting.
- [46:54]
Mary Vance
Yeah. Come to one of my workshops. Come join me at wppi because you'll walk home with something that you can put in your portfolio to show people that day.
- [47:03]
Nikki Klosser
Heck, yeah. Very cool. Well, that's awesome. This is great. It sounds like you have really kind of, you know, made yourself a great niche and for a great reason. And you're helping some great kids have some great photos. So. Yeah, I love it. I appreciate you sharing all of this?
- [47:24]
Mary Vance
Yeah, absolutely.
- [47:26]
Nikki Klosser
All right, well, I do have four questions that I always ask at the end of each episode, if you wouldn't mind answering those for me. And the first one is, what is something you can't live without when you're doing a photo shoot? And this does not have to be a photography specific product, because I'm going to ask you about that in question three.
- [47:44]
Mary Vance
Comfortable shoes.
- [47:46]
Nikki Klosser
Oh, I love that answer.
- [47:48]
Mary Vance
Sneak like, it like, I must be in sneakers. I don't know how letting photographers do it because having to look good and Yeah, I have no idea. I'm like, no, it has to be like, it has to be my sneakers.
- [48:03]
Nikki Klosser
Oh, Mary. I'm the same. It just. When I was a wedding photographer, I was constantly on the hunt for like, cute black sneakers or just like Dr. Scholls, some sort of flats that were comfortable. Like, I cannot do. I don't understand how people can do the whole cute over comfort. I just can't. Can't do it.
- [48:24]
Mary Vance
No. Yes.
- [48:25]
Nikki Klosser
I love that. All right, number two is how do you spend your time when you're not working?
- [48:31]
Mary Vance
I love, love, love standup comedy.
- [48:35]
Nikki Klosser
Oh, so much.
- [48:37]
Mary Vance
And I even got talked into doing an open mic night this summer. And a couple weeks ago, a friend of mine really encouraged me to go do that.
- [48:47]
Nikki Klosser
How to go. That's.
- [48:49]
Mary Vance
It was actually. It was. Yeah, it was. It went really well. And that's one of those things. I just. I don't know. The world can be serious and heavy enough, I think. And so I always appreciate the levity that stand up comedy brings. And basically, if I can spend any, any additional days of my life laughing and being joyful, then, yeah, I'm. I'm here for that. Sign me up. It's either that or traveling. I'm a travel ninja. I fly all the. I've already flown over 150,000 miles this year.
- [49:23]
Nikki Klosser
Um, Nice.
- [49:25]
Mary Vance
And I never, ever tell people where I'm going or what I'm gonna do. And like, my mom's, you know, she's like, you just never know. She's like, Mary will just show up and like. Yeah, I kind of do. So. Yeah. Awesome.
- [49:41]
Nikki Klosser
All right, number three is what is a photography specific product that you would recommend to people?
- [49:46]
Mary Vance
Oh, editors. Yeah, it's got to. It's got to be my editors. So for photography specifically, I use Imagine. They are just. Oh, they're so amazing. I would recommend. I would recommend not only their product, which is, you know, the actual AI tool that does the editing and it makes it look like your own photos. I would recommend not only that, but also the company and the people who are there. Every single conference that, you know, that I go to, they are there supporting me as an educator, as a speaker in my day to day. They are like, checking in, you know, how can we do this? What can we make better? You know, like the community and the company, they honestly, they blow my mind all the time with that. And it's invaluable.
- [50:33]
Nikki Klosser
Yeah, it is invaluable. And I was just on the podcast with Scott. Yeah, the Imagine podcast. It does. It's not out yet. I think it comes out in December. But yeah, it seems like a really great company. It's awesome.
- [50:46]
Mary Vance
They really are. And for me, last year alone, they saved me over. And this is by their estimate, and we all know that I would have taken a whole heck of a lot longer than that. And they're like, we saved over 80 hours worth of editing for you.
- [50:59]
Nikki Klosser
I believe it. I believe it.
- [51:01]
Mary Vance
I work in photography programs. If a full time work week for me in photography is 20 hours a week, he just, literally, that company just saved me a month. That's like a month's paid vacation. Are you kidding me? You know, so that's why it's hugely valuable to me. I love. I love my. I love my Imagine people.
- [51:20]
Nikki Klosser
So, yeah, I'm all about efficiency and. Yeah, that's fantastic. All right, number four is what would you tell people who are just starting out?
- [51:30]
Mary Vance
Don't stop, don't stop. It's, you know, like, oh, gosh, there's so many gurus that have, you know, all the things on how to achieve your goals and how to hustle and how to just don't stop, you know, and when I say that, I think I don't want anybody to hear, keep running, right? Like, not necessarily keep running or keep pushing, especially past your limits and stuff like that. It's just that remind yourself that even a step right is not stopping. It's still motion. You're still moving forward, whether you're walking that, you know, walking that 5K or, you know, or your Usain Bolt, you know, crossing the finish line, whatever. But, like, just don't. Just don't stop. And especially when it comes to learning, I guess don't stop learning. Because I kind of feel like. I kind of feel like I'm learning that one. The older that I get too, is, you know, like, you think, like, oh, well, you know, you're done with school, you're out of adolescence and stuff like that. And I'm like, well, now I'm a woman in my 40s and I still feel like I'm learning stuff every single day. So just don't stop. Be open to it.
- [52:42]
Nikki Klosser
Isn't that the truth? All right, awesome. Where can people find you online? Mary?
- [52:48]
Mary Vance
My name, and I do go by both names. So maryvance.com is where you can find me for my website. I'm on my socials, My Instagram is Mary Vance Photography, as is my Facebook page. And then coming soon, I'll be starting a new podcast myself that's not actually going to be photography related, but so I'll be. Yeah, I'll be releasing that coming up soon. So it's not photography related, you said it is not.
- [53:22]
Nikki Klosser
Oh, interesting. What's it about?
- [53:24]
Mary Vance
It is not. The title of my new podcast is the Millennial Empty Nester.
- [53:28]
Nikki Klosser
Ooh, I love it.
- [53:30]
Mary Vance
And so, yeah, so that's gonna be a lot about kind of the stage and phase of life that I'm in that I know that a lot of my fellow millennials are coming to now because I'm kind of like on the elder end of the millennial generation, but also had kids kind of young. So like launching children out of the nest. And what does life look like on that side? What does parenting teens look like? Which is obviously something that I've had my head in in my senior photography world or through advocacy for over 20 years. I've been working with teenagers for a really long time. And so there's a lot of, there's a lot that I have to share around that. And I believe very much that if I can share anything with anybody that makes a step even that much easier, I'm going to be shouting about it.
- [54:22]
Nikki Klosser
So very cool. We'll also look out for that. My kids are still young, but I'll be getting there, will.
- [54:27]
Mary Vance
And it goes faster. Like the days are. The adage is true, the days are long, but the. But the years are short. So yeah, it does. I know it goes fast. Yeah.
- [54:38]
Nikki Klosser
All right, well, thank you. Thank you again. This has been really great. And I will see you at WPPI in Las Vegas in March.
- [54:45]
Mary Vance
Thank you so much for having me on today. And yeah, I can't wait. I'll see you there.
- [54:51]
Nikki Klosser
Woo hoo. See you soon. Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System podcast. Your 5 star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to sue brice education.com where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1000 on demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, shooting, marketing, sales, business and self value. There's also the 90 day startup challenge plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to do checklists for your business, lighting pdfs, I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once again, that's Sue Bryce Education Combination.