Sue Bryce on Valuing Your Work and Increasing Your Income (Re-release)

Summary

The Portrait System Podcast: Episode Summary

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Title: Sue Bryce on Valuing Your Work and Increasing Your Income (Re-release)
Host: Nikki Closser, Sue Bryce Education
Release Date: December 23, 2024

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In this empowering episode of The Portrait System Podcast, host Nikki Closser engages in an in-depth conversation with renowned photographer Sue Bryce. Together, they delve into the critical aspects of valuing one's work, refining pricing strategies, and expanding income streams within the portrait photography business. This summary captures the essence of their discussions, enriched with notable quotes and actionable insights.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Nikki Closser sets the stage by highlighting Sue Bryce's expertise in portrait photography and business management. She emphasizes the episode's focus on helping photographers achieve financial freedom by doing what they love, sharing:

“Sue has some empowering words of wisdom about valuing what you do so you don't have to be burning yourself out, just charging next to nothing for your work.”
[02:22]

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2. Understanding Different Business Models in Photography

Sue Bryce shares her journey of exploring various genres before honing in on glamour photography, illustrating the importance of finding one’s passion:

“I revived an old genre from the 80s. Glamour was gonna be my thing. I was intently focused on it.”
[04:52]

She underscores that photographers should experiment with multiple genres—such as newborn, maternity, weddings, fashion, and editorial—to discover what resonates most with them. Sue advises:

“Choose the genres you love in that style. What's the avatar here? Are you trying to attract senior girls? Are you trying to attract boudoir? Are you trying to attract couples?”
[06:00]

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3. Valuing Your Work and Pricing Strategies

Transitioning from wedding photography, Sue discusses the common misconception that only weddings can be highly profitable. She challenges the industry norm of underpricing portrait sessions:

“I think people stay in weddings because they don't see themselves being able to charge $2,000 for portraits.”
[11:03]

Sue emphasizes the importance of perceiving the true value of one’s work. She advocates for creating comprehensive packages that include not just digital images but also consultation, education, and additional services:

“The value is not in the printing. The value is in the making of the image.”
[12:11]

Moreover, she stresses that a professional shoot, enriched with consultation and premium services, justifies higher price points:

“I expect a professional photographic shoot to be between $600 and $1,200... the experience itself is around 4 to 5 hours.”
[12:11]

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4. Building Systems for Client Interaction

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around establishing a robust system for client consultations and interactions. Sue outlines a multi-touchpoint approach to ensure clients feel valued and informed:

“The sale should be the third or fourth touch point of your client.”
[20:35]

She elaborates on the importance of pre-shoot consultations via phone, Zoom, or email to build rapport and set expectations:

“If you can connect on the phone, on Zoom, on your computer, over email... they will already like you by the time they're walking into your shoot.”
[22:28]

Sue shares her technique of waiting for clients to express excitement, ensuring they are emotionally invested before the shoot:

“I wait until they say, 'I'm so excited.' I know they're gonna show up. I know they're gonna pay.”
[22:46]

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5. Overcoming Self-Doubt and Building Confidence

Sue opens up about her personal struggles with valuing her work, revealing vulnerabilities that many photographers can relate to:

“People kept telling me I was overpriced, and I couldn't sell my work. It took me a long time to break through the sickness of seeing my value.”
[17:03]

She emphasizes that confidence stems from consistently practicing and refining one’s systems:

“Emotional mastery involves self-confidence. You only gain confidence by talking the talk, walking the walk, and actually doing the work.”
[54:28]

Sue advocates for self-awareness and emotional mastery as foundational elements for business success.

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6. Exploring Multiple Revenue Streams

Diversifying income is a pivotal theme. Sue highlights various revenue streams beyond traditional portrait sessions:

• Personal Branding: Catering to influencers, CEOs, and industry leaders.
• Product Photography: Especially relevant during the pandemic era.
• Stock Photography: Despite being competitive, there's a demand for diverse and quality stock images.
• Digital Products: eBooks, magazines, PDF guides, podcasts, and videos.
• Fine Art Images and Products: Creating and selling fine art photographs.

She provides real-life examples of photographers successfully navigating these streams:

“Paula Brennan flipped her business to focus exclusively on personal branding and now earns more as a personal branding and marketing content photographer.”
[31:25]

Sue also mentions innovative companies like Tonal Co, which focuses on diverse stock imagery, illustrating the untapped markets within stock photography.

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7. Final Advice and Key Takeaways

In wrapping up, Sue consolidates her insights into actionable steps for photographers aiming to elevate their businesses:

1. Choose a Style and Genre You Love: This passion will drive your business forward.
2. Identify Your Demographic: Understand who your ideal clients are.
3. Create a Systematic Client Interaction Process: From initial contact to final sale.
4. Value Your Work Appropriately: Develop packages that reflect the true worth of your services.
5. Diversify Revenue Streams: Explore various avenues to maximize income.
6. Invest in Self-Development: Build self-confidence and emotional mastery to enhance business interactions.

Sue concludes with a motivational message, urging photographers to embrace their unique paths and remain authentic:

“You can be whatever you want to be as long as it's authentic to you and you believe that voice and you have some content to share, you can have an audience.”
[73:17]

Nikki echoes this sentiment, encouraging listeners to take actionable steps daily and rely on the comprehensive resources available through Sue Bryce Education.

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Notable Quotes

• On Valuing Work:
  “The value is not in the printing. The value is in the making of the image.”
  [12:11]

• On Building Confidence:
  “Emotional mastery involves self-confidence.”
  [54:28]

• On Systematic Selling:
  “The sale should be the third or fourth touch point of your client.”
  [20:35]

• On Authenticity and Diversity:
  “There is stock that does not exist right now that we could be creating.”
  [31:47]

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a comprehensive guide for portrait photographers striving to enhance their business acumen and financial success. Sue Bryce's candid discussions and practical advice provide invaluable insights into valuing one’s work, optimizing pricing strategies, and diversifying income streams. By implementing the systems and mindset shifts discussed, photographers can transform their passion into a lucrative and sustainable business.

For more detailed strategies and educational resources, listeners are encouraged to visit soubreaiseducation.com.

Transcript

[A]

Hey there, it's Nikki Klosser and I want to let you know about an awesome free giveaway for people on our email list. If you haven't already, click the link in our podcast description or go to theportraitsystem.com signup to get on the list. If you sign up, you'll get a free posing 101 PDF to jumpstart things. It's an epic PDF so you'll definitely want to get this. Also, just by being in our email community, you'll get deals, sales and information about any of our upcoming events and activities. So head over to theportraitsystem.com signup and sign up. Today you're listening to the Portrait System podcast.

[B]

It is worth it man. I know that it doesn't feel like it, but if you can connect on the phone, on zoom, on your computer over email with your PDF and then talk to them, they will already like you by the time they're walking into your shoot.

[A]

Welcome to the Portrait System Podcast. I'm your host Nikki Klosser and this show is here to help you succeed in the world of photography and business. To help you learn to become financially free, doing what you love and so much more. With over 1 million downloads, countless photographers have taken what they've learned from both our episodes and from theportraitsystem.com and they have grown their businesses, quit their day jobs and are designing a life of their dreams. We keep it real and share stories about the ups and downs that come with running a photography business. You'll hear real life stories of how other photographers run their business and you'll learn actionable steps that you can take to reach your own goals. Thank you so much for being here and let's get started. Hey guys, Sue Bryce is back with me today for another powerful episode to help motivate and inspire you to achieve your goals and finally reach the level of success you've been wanting. We chat about many different ways that you can make an income as a photographer, figuring out your path, choosing a genre, and of course sue has some empowering words of wisdom about valuing what you do so you don't have to be burning yourself out, just charging next to nothing for your work. We discuss digital packages, how in person sales truly can be easy, and so much more. I always love having sue on because she continually educates in a way that just moves people into action. And taking action is exactly what needs to happen if you want to grow your business. Okay, let's start the show. Hi Sue Bryce, welcome back to the podcast.

[B]

Woo hoo. Thank you very much.

[A]

This is our first one this year, 2021 recording with you.

[B]

It is. And congratulations today, number two podcast in marketing this week.

[A]

Oh, it is. Oh, sweet.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I have to figure out how that works because I know Craig keeps track of it, but I never. I don't even know how to keep track of it. I got to look at that.

[B]

Yeah, it's really exciting.

[A]

It's exciting. Okay, so New year and I know we were trying to just, just like talking about ideas of what to talk about and you said let's talk about the different ways that photographers can be profitable and make money.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So. So let's talk about that today.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like probably one of the hardest things for me in building Super Ice education was all of my experience was in the photographic industry. But my specific path through was very, you know, sort of solid. And there it was. I had a portrait studio. I knew I didn't want to shoot babies and families and weddings, so. So I revived an old genre from the 80s. Glamour was gonna be my thing. I was intently focused on it. And then I built this really amazing little business model and I built this very successful little business. And when I started to teach it, I realized that I could teach any type of photographer this business model, this recipe. But a lot of people just saw a portrait or just saw Glamour or just saw my studio and I think they felt like that was the only way through. But you know, in the last 30 years, I've definitely seen so many photographers make business models different to mine, effectively using the same foundations and making money, doing what they really want. Some of them still holding down full time jobs and part time jobs and families. And I just believe there are multiple ways and I'd love to talk about it.

[A]

Yeah, well, something that you often ask people is really, what do you want? What type of business do you want? What do you want? And people often have a hard time like answering that question. For some reason it is weird to.

[B]

Me because I think everybody knows what they want, but often what they want is what they dream of having. So it's way over there and it's not really congruent to what they're doing in the everyday steps. So it's really easy sometimes to look at what you maybe daydream of and you don't realize that that's your ultimate goal. And I want you to bring that into your focus and make it your ultimate goal. But before you do, there might just be a few things you need to consider, like, what are multiple business models? How would that work? So, like, let's break them down because I feel like once we talk about it, people will get a better understanding of where they're gonna go.

[A]

Okay, so like different business models or different genres? Do you mean things like personal branding, portrait photography, wedd, the different genres, product photography, that sort of thing?

[B]

Yeah, those are genres that we shoot. So I think as a professional photographer, I shoot portrait is the first genre. And then when I break down my portrait genres to the multiple portrait genres, I see glamour, newborn, wedding, contemporary. I see all of the genres. And as a photographer, I tried every one. I tried shooting newborns, I tried shooting babies, I did maternity, I did families, generations, events, weddings. I mean, I really tried everything. I've been, you know, published as an editorial photographer, I've done behind the scenes at Fashion Week, I've done fashion work, and I really explored multiple, every genre. And I think you have to to really understand what you love the most. But first, I believe that the first choice you make is really style based, right? You're drawn to a certain style of photography, whether it's fashion or beauty or, or editorial or photojournalism. You're definitely drawn to that style. You're drawn to photographing it. And then you're probably drawn to either more classic or more illustrative. And it's definitely about who you are and who you definitely see as a mentor that you think, oh, I want what they've got. But the good thing about this is when you explore the genres, you explore all the styles. You can really just ask yourself, what demographic do I enjoy shooting the most and what age, you know, what genre and what demographic. Because it really gives me an avatar of who your future client is. And the best photographers that build brands definitely have strong genres, but you don't have to have a specialty if that's your block. You can do multiple genres, but you do stand out in one genre when you're very good at it, right? So you tend to push into the genres and the demographics that you most like when you can form an avatar of what that client looks like. So if you're mostly drawn to shooting women that are 40 plus, you have a classic style and you've got a lot of sort of just very classic glamour. And it's very, you know, it's definitely going to attract a certain type of client in her 40s, 50s and 60s. That gives me a very strong of what your client looks like and where you find them, how you speak to them. What you show them. If you can get to that place before you even thinking about what product will I sell, what money will I make? Just really follow that Joy. That's your first step. I mean, you did that.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

You went to weddings, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's what I started at, yeah.

[B]

Most people come in to some degree photographing weddings, which blows my mind because if you've ever spent 12 hours shooting a wedding as a newbie, when you are being like confronted with light, you have never experienced family dynamics. You can't control weather, rain, wind, sleet, you name it, it's gonna get thrown at you at a wedding. And that was your entry point to professional photography. Like, oh my goodness.

[A]

Yeah, I can tell you why. And this goes back to. We've had this conversation before where in my head I felt like that was the only way I could charge a lot of money because everyone, like they need wedding photos. Everyone of course wants wedding photos. And I couldn't get past the fact that I could make money doing other things. It just had to be weddings. That's how I can make the money.

[B]

Right. So the beauty of weddings is any event based business exchange. So anybody that's going to have a wedding, a christening, an engagement party or anything like that, we know that those life events come with photography. Now some people are cheap and they'll just go the cheap route and just say, I just need someone to document it. I don't care about how good it is, just take photographs. And other people know the value of that. But to me it's just part and parcel. You get married, you book a photographer. So when we were selling weddings, we were just in the race, we were in the rat race to stand out above all the other wedding photographers at our price point. And it was easy because ultimately they shopped and, and we made sure we had the best response, the best customer service, the best photography, the best packages. And we're competing on price, but we're also competing on customer service. But when you're a portrait photographer, the phone doesn't ring because life events aren't necessarily correlated to photography, although they are for maternity, newborn. You know, Valentine's Day could be a genre for you because it's just love. Families always want updated families. So within the portrait world, there are so many touch points to why people should be photographed. But when it comes to portraiture, you have to constantly remind people why they need to wake up tomorrow and spend $2,000 on portraits. Cause it's just, it's an. And you know, not an instead of. It's something people have to desire and they have to want it. And why would they want that? So when you look at your genre and you think, nobody wants. Wants this, you need to ask, why do they want this? And you need to speak to them in that way. So these, I believe, are all just the startup questions that you should ask yourself when you're in your first year. Like, what am I most drawn to? What do I love? What am I looking at? But these aren't business models, you know, they're just the genres and the demographics that you are most attracted to that you want to master.

[A]

Mm. You know what I love about just almost this, sort of, I wanna call it, like a movement amongst the, like the photography industry is that it's almost like you're changing the thought that family photos, newborn photos, maternity photos have to be cheap. Shoot and burn on a disc. You get all the digitals for $250. Because coming into the photography industry, that's what I believed. And I still think that there are so many photographers out there who think there's no way I could charge $2,000 for portraits. And I. I wonder if that's why a lot of people stay in the wedding. Okay, I should say a lot of people love shooting weddings. I'm not trying to say that people don't at first. I really loved it too. But I think people stay beyond when they want to because they don't see themselves being able to charge $2,000 for portraits. But I feel like what you're doing is helping it become the industry standard so that not just the photographers realize that that's how much it's going to charge. But the everyday people who are booking photo shoots are starting to realize that that's what it's worth.

[B]

So you can create digital packages. I know that a lot of people think I'm just totally anti digital packages. I see the value of prints and I give both because I think they're both valuable and I believe they are a package. I say death to shoot and burn because shoot and burn inherently is cheap. And when your client says, I don't want to pay $600 or $800 for this package, I just want the digitals. The value is not in the printing. The value is in the making of the image, which has already been made. So if you want to create digital packages, go for it. I don't expect you to earn $2,000 every day. I expect you to earn somewhere between 600 and 1,200 for a professional job and whatever else you add to that package to push up, the value is up to you and your client. That's just gravy to me. I expect that a professional photographic shoot that is retouched, presented to a client, if that was all done with good consultation time, good education time, good setting of expectations, a great shoot, perhaps even a hair and makeup thrown in there, whether you want to pay for it or have it inclusive or have your client pay for it, that experience itself is around 4 to 5 hours. All up with me. Your viewing session, I want you to send me five referrals, and I get five referrals from every. Like, I have a very high referral rate. So the time that I've spent, the energy that I've given, that equates to five more clients without actually going to marketing. So if you tell me you want to make that process faster, cheaper, and then you're going to get a third of the money that I get, and you're not going to get five referrals, then you're not doing business. Right. But that's up to you, you know, like, that's on you. That's how I got it. If you want to believe that, try, just try it. It really, really works. And I feel like that's the secret to me, you know?

[A]

Yeah, it's like you're describing. People need to build a system. It's like, have a system in place. And then every time you go through that process of that system, it just gets better and stronger. And like you said, more referrals. It's almost like, yes, the more you.

[B]

Do it, the more you say it, you understand you're not saying the same thing to each client. Cause each client brings a different conversation around the education of what you do. But the more you excite them and educate them, set expectations and really ask them, what do you want? How do you want to be photographed? How do you want to do this? Where do you want to do this? Oh, my gosh. You are commissioning me to take photographs of you that you are then going to come back and look at, fall in love with, and buy all of them. It is my job in this moment to get so excited. I wouldn't do that for $250 at the end. I mean, that's pretty much. I'm going to pay my makeup artist, I'm going to pay for my products, and I want to have a viable, sustainable business. It's okay to start with shoot and burn, but you need to understand prints have value, too. Add them Sell a digital package with prints, and then you're winning. If anybody's charging under $600, I really have to seriously ask how you're going to build a business doing this. You need to bring yourself up into that professional level. You need to grow in confidence, and you need to be good enough to charge those prices. Now listen to this. If I'm challenging your value right now, if I'm challenging you and your core belief is saying, I don't believe you, super ice, I can't. $2,000 or $1,200 in my area. I want you to just hear one thing. You believe it because you think it, and because you think it, you believe it. But that's not the truth. And when you break through that false belief, I'm going to prove to you that you're more valuable than that and you can get paid. Once you believe that, you're going to see it. Number two, when people like your work, they pay for it, but it doesn't sell itself. And I know that you think if I just get better, people will give me money, but Caitlin is not gonna wake up tomorrow in Riverdale and look for somebody's business to make better just willy nilly. I'm going to give that person $3,000 because they're so good. Because you didn't offer anything, you didn't do anything. So to me, it's like such a weird thing when you first start out, you sit back and you wait for people to pay you, and it doesn't happen. So I keep getting better and better and better, and still no one paid until I offered and asked. Then all of a sudden, I was valuable.

[A]

Now, this sounds like something like the way that you're saying it, it almost makes. And I know that you went through this, but the way that you're saying it, it reminds me of you kind of talking about your own experience, how you got better and better and better. And you were like, wait a minute, why isn't anyone paying me? Like, did you go through that?

[B]

Yeah. So I turned to my friend at the time. This is embarrassing, but I'm gonna admit it. I was crying. I couldn't break through this dumb thing where I was like, people keep telling me I was $400 for a CD was too expensive, and I could sell like 1 to 7,000 in my job as an employee, but my boss was doing their selling. So I was like, how can he sell my work for $7,000? And I can't. How? Because it's the same work. But he was Selling it, and he could sell it, and I couldn't. And that was it for me. I had to wake up. I was like, I can't sell this, so why can't I sell this? Because I had this guilt and shame that I shouldn't receive that much money for this. So when people wanted to give me money and it was easy, I was elated, even high. But I just couldn't get past it. And it took such a long time for me to break through the sickness of seeing my value. Oh, gosh. It's so weird when I say it now, but I can still feel it in my stomach. Would you believe?

[A]

Yeah, I can still feel it in my stomach, too. It's funny, when you said that, I was kind of like, thinking back, okay, so for someone like me, and I know you are similar in this, and I know a lot of people out there, it's like, okay, so we need a system. We need a foundation. We need steps to take. I remember feeling like everything was just out of control. There were too many options. There was too much out there. But there's marketing. There's how do I do in person selling, but, you know, what company do I. It was just all felt so, so, so overwhelming. And it to me, bringing it back to a system, a business model, I follow A, B, C, D, and then I can just do it. To me, that changed everything. Like, for you, what was it that brought it all together?

[B]

So I feel like, as a student at sbe, which you were when you built your businesses, you absolutely followed my recipe. Right? But people need to know it's not so rigid that you are doing something you don't want to do. Like, there are many times you will look at one of my challenges and say, she's crazy. Or, oh, this is interesting. Or straight out. I really feel challenged by this challenge. Everything there has brought us results in some way, and we want you to experience all of it, to see where your superpower is, to see what you grab onto. We identify really, really quickly what your superpower is. Right, Nikki? Your superpower was networking, totally. Your superpower was setting up systems to respond to your clients, to get referrals. You had very high referral rate. So we saw where you were super strong, and then we saw where you were super weak. Design. You were crippled. You were crippled by any time you had to design something, and yet you just outsourced it, and then it was brilliant. So. But I watched you literally hold yourself back, you know, And I was like, what are you doing? And you were Like, I can't design anything. And I said, so get Shauna to do it. And you were like, ah, yeah, exactly, yeah.

[A]

The other thing that crippled me, and a lot of people say this is in person sales. It's like the thought of having to see my client and for them to be like, face to face with me to decide how much money they were going to give me, like, the whole thing was so daunting. And I was. That was the other thing. I was like, I just. I don't want to like. And I know a lot of people out there feel like that.

[B]

I know the answer. The answer is if you spend 20 minutes on their consultation, phone call, on Zoom or Face to Face, by the time that client comes back to your studio for their shoot, they're already a friend. You have already talked money, you have had an open dialogue with this person around how much you cost, what you can create. But you have spent more energy during that time offering the excitement of what you're going to create instead of spending all that energy talking about how much it costs. Because if you just talk about the cost, you're not offering them anything and they're just gonna walk away and go, all she talked about, all he talked about was money. But if you educate them and then get them excited about what you do, you're already sold. You are sold. They'll walk in, look at you. You can look them in the eye and say, hi, Pauline, this is such an exciting day. It's so great to see you face to face. You know, it's something you're not afraid of. The sale should be the third or fourth touch point of your client. The third or fourth. So there's the initial breaking the ice conversation, setting up a consultation. Then there's the consultation a lot of photographers add. Also a styling appointment the week before. Then you've got the entire shoot, which you spend that together one on one, which is always the best bonding time for me. Then they make the appointment time, come back and view their images. I'm often at a five or six touch point with my client at this point. It is worth it, man. I know that it doesn't feel like it, but if you can connect on the phone, on Zoom, on your computer, over email with your PDF and then talk to them, they'll already like you by the time they're walking into your shoot.

[A]

I know I've got the client ready to book when they're like. Cause I photograph mostly women, but you know, men as well. But they'll say, I'm so nervous. I'm not photogenic. I just, you know, I hate having my photo taken. And then the way that I respond to them right then and there. I know, is what is gonna get them to book with me. Yeah, you know, they know.

[B]

And you know what? I wait for one magic phrase. I have one magic phrase that I wait to hear from them. And when I get off the call, I always say. I always say, you know, I use names a lot, so I say, nikki, thank you so much for calling. I'm so excited to do your shoot next Thursday. I wait until they say Sue. I'm so excited. Like, I was nervous, but now I'm excited. My client says that before I hang up the consultation or walk out of the consultation room 100% of the time. So that means I'm talking in a way that is connecting, exciting, selling, but without selling. Because when my client says to me, I'm so excited, I know they're gonna show up. I know they're gonna pay. I know they're gonna bring the clothes and everything I need to make this shoot as good as I need to make it. And that, to me, once you practice that, that's where your confidence is. Then you get confidence in person. And then all you're doing to an educated client is showing the choices that they have to make. And that's the fun part. You should be walking into your sale so elated and excited that they are about to see their images. It is such a fun, incredible energy, especially when you get a little bit of a studio viewing room going, and, you know, it's a really cool experience. And then all of a sudden, somebody's writing you a check, and it's $9,000, and you're in your garage, and it's like, whoa. But I gave $9,000 worth of service.

[A]

It's amazing. It really is. And so much of it comes down to that consultation. And for people listening out there who are like, I don't know about this, like, what is the consultation? How does it work? You have videos on this step by step that you go through on the website. It's one of those things where it is so worth taking that time. And like you said, it can be on the phone. I've done it on Zoom. Some people are just not gonna get on the phone. And I've done it through email. I don't prefer that, obviously, but, man, and like you said, if you take that extra time beforehand, my sales just went through the roof. Remember that? Remember we were sitting at, like, tender greens or somewhere. I had had three cancellations, and I was like, sue, three people have canceled. And you were like, where are you going wrong? And I was like, I don't know. And you were like, yes, you do. And I was like, I'm not doing the consultation. And you were like, exactly. Like you knew you were doing something wrong, and that's what it was. I wasn't getting them so excited that they just had to come in. I was dropping the ball.

[B]

Okay, so this is to all the women. This is to all the women clients out there. We live in a busy world, right? We live in a busy, busy world. We have kids, we have businesses, we have careers, we have all the rest of it. But you know what? Women, specifically, after 30 years of photographing them, you can wake up the morning of your shoot with a hormone zit on your chin the size of a small country. You're not gonna wanna go to a photo shoot. You can wake up in the morning before you shoot with a massive cold sore on the bottom lip. You're not gonna wanna go to a photo shoot. You can wake up with conjunctivitis. You can just have a bad night's sleep with a sick kid. And you are not gonna wanna get into a photo shoot. You can have a bad hair day, a bad weight week. You could be carrying water weight. You could be having a period week that's just gonna knock you off track. And you do not wanna wake up and. And walk into a photo shoot. It's so. Like, there are so many variables. But all I know, and I've had every excuse that people have needed to cancel. Every single one. But when you get your client educated, jacked up, set expectations, they're so excited. They turn up, they pay, they're connected. It's ten times more fun.

[A]

Oh, yeah. And then they tell all their friends.

[B]

Yep. And that applies to every single business model we're about to talk about.

[A]

Yep. Yep. Okay, so let's say I decide I want to do. Well, you know, personal branding is my favorite, so I decide I want to do that. Like, okay, so what do I do next? Then? What?

[B]

All right, so I feel like once you understand which genre, then you really understand your demographic. Once you've got your marketing avatar, you can just go after that one genre. Now, are you saying that this is your only genre that you're going to do? So let me give you a few different choices before you make the decision to just go personal branding and marketing. If you like it and you think, this is what I like, I'm going to make sure I flip my business. So you interviewed Paula Brennan on the podcast in the last two months. Paula. I mentored Paula years ago and she was a wedding photographer. I used her as an example for years as an educator, because she had this incredible system in her business. She shot 52 weddings a year. So she had one wedding a week, every week. And then every now and then, she would put in a second wedding of the week. She made all of her wedding clients prepay over a year in payments. So every quarter, 52 clients would pay a quarter of $3,000 and she would get all of her income in one massive lump sum for the 52 weddings that she was doing for that year. She just ran her business with a system that was incredible. I could also see she was this vibrant, gorgeous girl and her light was going out a little bit with weddings and she was really at a place where she was like. So I said, start doing glam, start doing portraits, do glamour parties for your bridesmaids and for your brides, et cetera, et cetera. And she tried and it didn't really take off. But the second she walked into personal branding and marketing content for businesses, she flipped her entire business. And now that is her entire focus is just business branding. So corporate headshots are just corporate head and shoulders. But personal branding and marketing content now for photographers is modern. Think Instagram branding, think beautiful visuals. She's now flipped her business and she's earning more as a personal branding and marketing content photographer for, you know, key business roles and CEOs and industry leaders and people that just want to stand out with their own personal brands. Just like that flipped her entire business after I think 12 years. And I feel like now we even have personal photographers for influencers, industry leaders, businesses, which is extraordinary. I've had a couple of our students create personal branding packages that are subscription based. So the business pays throughout the year, it gets updated. That's really working for people. Product photography, especially during COVID and Pandemic, product photography has become such a big thing. And, you know, stock photography, stock photography is a massive market. There are very few people in this world that are doing it very well. But I know that there are people dominating in stock photography and so interesting. And I think it's really worth the conversation for stock photographers. When we created the Portrait Masters Live, we had a hand coming up holding a camera. And the hand ultimately was Caitlin's because she filmed herself to make the video. Now Caitlin's hand is white and she went straight away to get three hands. So that there were three hands coming up. A white hand, a tanned hand, a darker brown hand, and then black skin. And there was none. In fact, we could not find stock for any sort of darker skin tones in the photography industry. Why? There's black photographers. And she needed to go and make stock with Hattons in it because she wanted to use that diversity for our video, which was very important, and she had to make it all. So there is stock that does not exist right now that we could be creating. And there's also an excessive amount of stock. So I think a lot of photographers might look at stock and go. It's really dominated and it doesn't make that much money. But it really does. If you're in the right place.

[A]

It does. And I want to give a plug because this is a newer company. It's called Tonal T O N L. It's T O N L Co. One of my clients, Karen, she is a gorgeous black woman. She and her friend started a diverse stock imagery company because. No way. Nothing. Yes. Yes.

[B]

That's so fantastic. I didn't know that.

[A]

Yeah. I'll share it with you on Instagram. It's T O N L. And they have the most beautiful stock imagery for exactly the reason you said so. Yes, there is a market for it.

[B]

I didn't realize that.

[A]

Yeah. Yep. It's a newer company within the last year or two.

[B]

Wow. And are they accepting contributors or artists that are contributing, or is it just their own brand?

[A]

I don't know. That's a really good question. And I can find out. But. Yeah, and if you're out there and you love doing stock imagery, T O N L, contact them and find out. You know, otherwise. And I'll definitely find out and post in the Facebook group too, from them.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But yeah, so it is. There is such a market and there's always someone that needs something. Like you said, if you can't shoot people in studio right now, if you can't be doing weddings, if you can't, like, there's always a way to pivot. So, okay, so Donna Maria, who was just on our. One of our recent episodes, she photographs rare books. I mean, who would have even thought of that? There's always a way to find something or someone who needs photos from you.

[B]

She's episode 49 in your podcast. Yes, that's right. Yeah.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Episode 49. If you want to go and listen to Donna Maria. So I have a friend in New Zealand who, when I was about 30 and I just started winning Portrait categories. I just started, got my first sort of national award in photography. I was probably 31, 32. And Lucy Gauntlet was one of my dearest friends. And she's an architect. She's a bit younger than me and she was coming up in the architect world. And we met at a photography conference. We became best friends. We had such a great fun time together. She was such a great girl, but she photographed urban landscape.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

And then I found out this was like I was 31. So remember back then, I couldn't make $400. Even though my work was good, I couldn't make $400 on my own. She was making $1,500 every Saturday on top of her architectural job, selling her urban landscape prints at the markets. Now, just an interesting segue, market mentality is this one day I went and she was like, so my average price is 29 to 39 dollars. And I was like, great, why don't you do bigger prints and sell them for more? And she laughed at me. And she goes, watch this. So every week I see an artist come to market, brand new, and they'll set up a stand and they're gonna walk in with 400, 600, 800, $1,200 paintings. They're gonna hang them. They're gonna sit there all day and not sell one. I am going to sit here all day and sell $1,500 worth of $29, $39, you know, prints. And I said, well, that's market price. And she said, yeah, when people come to a Saturday market, they expect to spend under $40 for something that they might like and go home with. She knew what the market was she created. And I want you to interview her now because I haven't spoken to her for a couple of years and we must catch up. We're still friends on Facebook because now she has an online digital print store and this is 15 years later. She is just dominating in this area. It's not her full time job. Same with Karl Ferguson. Follow Carl Ferguson Jr. On Instagram. This guy is so incredible. He works at the Verizon plant in New York. He photographs some of the biggest celebrities in the world. He just did the Variety cover for Chris Rock. He spoke at our TPM conference called Don't Give up youp Day Job. He just absolutely built an international career as a celebrity photographer. Does not have an agent. He does the bookings himself. He works part time. He said, I never wanted to treat this as a job. And I look at what he has created and it's so outside of what most people believe they can create. But he just followed what felt right. And what felt right was he got paid well, he loved his job, he kept it. And then he lived this dream life outside of those work hours. That to me, is somebody that created a business model that just services them specifically, you know, like his lifestyle. And he's so incredibly authentic and the way he works. And you can see why people are drawn to him. Everything he learned, he's learned in real time. Like he said in the early days, I got ripped off on my contracts. I learned how to stand up for myself. I learned how to write better contracts and make better agreements. I learned how to create boundaries and say no. I learned, you know, what I needed and what I didn't need to be in the room. But he 100% says confidence, which you build, and relationship building is the reason he is where he is.

[A]

Hey, just a quick break to tell you that since you're here listening, you have access to a really great offer for our listeners only. We have a special promo code you can use to get 50% off the cost of membership. Just go to theportraitsystem.com or click the link in the description and use the promo code PODCAST50 to get 50% off of a membership. We rarely discount membership, so this is a big deal. As I hope you already know, the membership is how I and so many guests on this podcast reached our success. And it gives you access to countless amazing videos, an awesome community, and all the tools you need to build a massively successful business. So use the code podcast50Now to join the community and to start building the business of your dreams. I'll see you there. Yeah, it's absolutely, absolutely. And it goes back to what you said about what is it that you want? And having that self confidence. It almost seems like. And Carl, I could be wrong. Maybe you still feel like you're working on both of these things, but that's what it feels like is that he's confident, he knew what he wanted and he went for it.

[B]

Yeah, totally. That's how you explain it. But he also did it gradually. He just experienced it. He didn't like go, I'm gonna be the best photographer in the world or what. He just took job after job and he kept experiencing it, remembering. He's studied audio engineering, so he was gonna be in a sound studio and he has friends in sound, so he was getting invited to places where potentially, you know, hip hop singers were, like, becoming famous. And one day he happened to be somewhere where a band needed a photograph and he offered to do it for free. So that first shoot got published. And then of course, everybody in the room knew him as a photographer and he just kept relationship building and building his strengths. Like, that's a remarkable story. That is a remarkable story. And it is such a great story to listen to. So amazing.

[A]

It is. It is the Portrait Masters Live. If you own that and you haven't seen it yet, make sure to watch it. Cause he really is just so inspiring. So many of our speakers and guests and members. It's like there's so many incredible stories. I know you've heard a lot of them on this podcast, but it's just there's always a way. I feel like that's what it comes down to. Everyone has a different background story, you know, financial situation, family situation. But there's always a way.

[B]

There's no rules, man. Like, just like really take all the rules away. So if you want a portrait studio, go for it. If you want a part time portrait studio and you want to work the other half of the time, go for it. If you want a portrait studio or just photograph portraiture on location or at a temporary studio, then go for it. If you want to have a dual brand, like you're a hairstylist that likes to shoot portraits. I have friends that are makeup artists and portrait photographers. Simona started as a makeup artist. She shoots incredible portraits, does all of her own makeup. I have hair stylists coming in now that are learning photography because they want to take their hair styling to the next level. You know, retouching is a service. If you're good at it, offer it. Marketing is a service. If you're good at it, offer it. Design is an incredible service. If you're good at it, offer it. Fine art images and products. Sit down and ask yourself, what fine art can I create with my camera? What product can I create? Where would I sell said product? And if you are filled with joy around creating that product, there shouldn't be a block moving forward. The only block moving forward would be maybe people won't pay for this, or maybe my product is not good enough. And if you're making a product saying those two things, you're not making it with joy. You're making it because you're trying to do something that you're not ready to do. So, you know, it's so weird that we push ourselves so hard to try and work everything out instead of just feeling and experiencing everything. Like just feel it, feel that shoot Tell me, do you really want to go back? I left my first wedding with a migraine. I left my 104th wedding with a migraine. Why did it take me so long to learn? I hate shooting weddings, but I just keep saying yes because it was money and I didn't know how to say no because it was money and I needed to pay rent even if it meant hating being a photographer.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Why?

[A]

It's true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, going back to as well, just with the different genres and the way to do this and do what you want and make it into something that is exciting to you and special. Like, okay, for example, my friend Anella Daisler, she liked doing the school portraits, but she wanted to do it on her own terms. And then of course, with schools being shut down, she's in Seattle. They haven't been in person all year. She had students coming to her garage one at a time. And she does these really cool, modern, you know, there's no more 80s, 90s backdrops. Like, they're very, very contemporary.

[B]

Gradient blue.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And actually kind of I'm really encouraging her to raise her prices because she's really good around it. But she's also still. Sorry, Anell, I'm totally calling you out right now. But she's still working on that value. But, you know, like, that was a pivot that. Who would have thought instead of having the kids go through this line one at a time at school, parents could make their own appointment, come to her garage. It's not as stressful sending your kid hoping, hoping that your kid's hair is gonna be brushed and it's actually gonna turn out. I mean, granted they are funny, you know, when you get them back, because you have no idea. But how cool to be able to be there and do it and just sit back as a parent and watch Anala work her magic and have them be modern and contemporary portraits. So there's just such so many different ways.

[B]

There are. There is multiple ways. And you've got to understand what the foundation is like, number one, choose a style that you like. Can you have more than one style? Yes. Choose the genres you love in that style. What's the avatar here? Are you trying to attract senior girls? Are you trying to attract boudoir? Are you trying to attract couples? Like, you gotta speak to those people. So look for that avatar. Like, what is that demographic? How old are they? And then how are they connected to the other demographics? Once you've locked in who your market is, how do they want to be photographed? So you either have to have a room, a temporary space, a space you rent, a studio, a garage, or you have to be prepared to go to their house and provide the service that you would give them at your studio. So that's bringing everything with you, no matter what. And that's gonna take a bit of practice, but I've done that during the pandemic. I wanted to shoot a family portrait of my friends for their Christmas everything, Christmas cards and everything, without touching them in their backyard. I considered having them lie on the grass, and I was gonna drone down and zoom down, get their whole property, get them up close and come out. But then I thought, no, that might be risky. What if the drone dropped on them? So I did a no touch shoot in their backyard. I took a backdrop, a Westcott backdrop, X drop, stood it up there, and I shot it all natural light. And they had all their Christmas portraits. I did it with a longer lens. I didn't enjoy it. But, you know, just to constantly try anything that was like, I can work under these restrictions. I can still do it. I might not enjoy it, but I can still do it. But aside from the restrictions which are gonna go away, understand the fundamentals. You have to create a little bit of a system for that. So however you choose to do that temporary studio, when they call you, based on your ads or word of mouth or based on an offer, or based on your social media, when they reach out to you because they're interested, the system is how you connect with them. The PDF you send, the consultation time that you make, how easy it is for them to get on the phone with you, talk to you, how good they feel about that, how excited you can make them, how well you can educate them with that visual PDF and your voice, preferably in person, but if not on zoom is fine. When you see the face, you can see their body language, their excitement. They can see yours. The longer you take with this consultation, the more money they spend at the end. Okay? Then the next foundation is gonna be how you actively do the shoot. So get yourself set up, get yourself practice, make it seamless, make it easy for your client, make it look like you do it every day, and then create the work that you told them you could create at the consultation. So you actually have to live up to the expectations you've set, because you've said, I'm gonna take the best photograph you've ever seen of yourself, and now I have to actually do that. So I'm gonna do it, and then I'm gonna have a flawless System for you to view, see, and purchase the portrait. Why do people make it so hard for you to spend money with them? You've got to make it easy, right? I'm going to set you up with a viewing time. You know my price list. We've talked about all the packages. I've even bought them today so you can see them, touch them, feel them, hold them, and fall in love with them. I'm going to walk you through that. You know, I don't hard sell. I'm going to show you everything I took today, and my goal is that you will like all of them and buy all of them. Okay?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then they get all excited and then they come back and then I show them and I make that simple. And I could do that no matter where I am. I could do it remotely. I could do it traveling. I could do it at home. I could do it in my garage. I could do it in a park. I have sold a $3,800 sale on my laptop at Starbucks in 2006. She wrote a $3,800 check, and I left Starbucks with a $3,800 check and my laptop. And she didn't get anything because she just paid and I went and printed them. So I know it can be done. It's just all in the confidence of you doing it.

[A]

Okay, but you, like, can do this with your eyes closed. And I remember you saying this to me, like, oh, but, Nikki, this is what you do. Da, da, da, da. And basically, you know, you said it differently at the time, but it was all the same sort of messaging and going through. And I remember, like, staring at you, just like, my head spinning, thinking, like. Like this. It just all felt. And this was like, what, seven, eight years ago or something? I remember just feeling like, oh, my God, you just make it sound so easy. But there's so much in there. How do I unpack this? Where do I start? How do I begin? And now when you say it, I'm like, oh, totally. I'm following right along. Like, oh, yeah. I can, like, visualize in my mind each step of the way how I do it. And, like, I could repeat everything you just said. And it's all about the practice and the system. And again, I know I keep referring to videos because you have a video for freaking everything, but there is everything that you just went to. I don't even know if you realize sometimes that you're talking about your videos without even realizing it, because I know once you produce content, you, like, kind of forget that it's there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the five points of sales, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. You just went through them all, and it's all laid out step by step in these videos. And so I just wanna put it out there for anyone who's listening, who is like me, how I was, you know, in 2012, where my head was spinning. It's all there for you. It truly is. You just have to watch, listen, practice, and just do it.

[B]

Let me just break down something really simple. So I started in 1989. I did my first shoot when I was 22. Professional shoot that I sold for $1,500. And then I pretty much was away shooting professionally. I have calculated that I'm pretty close to 6,000 shoots.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So, yeah, I've done the math on my business shoots. I've done the math on ten shoots a week. I've done the math on how often I shoot over the last 30 years. I would say I'm close to 6,000 portrait shoots. I've done this 6,000 times. Okay. So, yes, I can do this without, like, looking at anything. I can do my consultation without checking my script. I can teach it without checking my script. It's so, like, ingrained in me and so deeply practiced. So when I teach scripts, I know that my voice is different from yours. So you have to understand. All you need to understand is, why did she say this one thing? So when I say to you, as far as what you purchase, the menu is a la carte. So if you want to spend $400, you can. And if you want to spend $4,000, you can, that is up to you. Some people spend 400, some people spend 4,000. You won't actually make that decision until you're looking at the finished portraits. So when we're done, I'm going to let you walk. I'm going to walk you through everything I took, and you can decide what you want to buy. Now. That's how I say that. What am I really saying? I'm saying some people spend 400 bucks and some people spend 4,000, and I don't know what you're going to be. So I'm just preparing you with that number. And then I say, my most purchased package is $3,500. This is what's in it. And I show them what they're going to get. Now, I've had people look at that and go, I will not be buying that package. And I go, okay. And then they come back from their shoot and inevitably, they love the images. They buy that Package. That was not the goal. The goal was simply to say it out loud. Because I'm educating them on the price range of the reality of what people buy. I look them in the eye when I say it, and I'm very gentle but confident when I say it, because it's simply the truth. Also, listen to what I just said. I just made it okay for you to choose $400 worth of photographs, didn't I? I took away the fear. I also said twice, you will make that decision when you come back. I do not hard sell you. I'm going to walk you through all the images so you choose everything. My goal is to give you everything in there so that you love everything in there. Like, I'm giving them the power of choice. I'm giving them the power of decision, but I'm telling them how much it costs. And when they feel empowered, like they're making all the decisions, which they are, they love it. And they absolutely come into this experience. Now, remember, a lot of women get pushed around by salespeople. They feel like they're buying something they don't want to buy. I'm saying all of this before they even come in for their shoot. I've already given them a safe passage. I've already given them a reason to buy it. I'm already giving them a reason to do it. And I've told them most people spend three and a half grand because it's such an incredible experience. So if you look at what I'm saying and you don't want to say it my way, that's fine. Just look at why I'm saying it. Because it works. I educate, I excite, I create demand, I create excitement, I create desire. And then I just, like. It's like just setting a mood and then watching everybody catch excitement.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's how I feel.

[A]

And you've said this before. It's like, especially people who will say, oh, but there's a million photographers in my town, or, my market's saturated. Every market saturated. But you always say this. Be the photographer people want to book. Be that photographer. Like you said, take the pressure off. Have beautiful work. Give amazing service.

[B]

Be friendly.

[A]

Be that photographer. Yeah. And people will want to book you. That's what it comes down to. Be the one that people are talking about.

[B]

Yeah, they do. I always felt that. Like, I realized that people, when you give what you give, like when you take beautiful photographs and you connect with clients, like, they will sell the hell out of you. It's just unreal. They will just Sell you. I can go to event. I've been to events where somebody's walked up to me and said, excuse me, can I have your phone? Because I always had this thing on my iPhone. When I got my first iPhone, I put a portrait gallery into it. So if anybody just wanted to see my work and I didn't have, you know, anything, I could just open my portrait gallery. And. And I just had this before and afters and like, 50 images that were my best portraits. It's still on my phone. Everyone loves it. I would give my phone out to somebody, and I would see a client or somebody I photographed at an event going, this is what she does. And they're just swiping through my gallery, and then I see this person glance over at me with these big eyes, and I'm sitting there thinking, oh, I just made a booking.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And I think my focus was relationship building. I know. Carl Ferguson said that. I know. So you are incredible at that. And, you know, I've just been writing this wonderful piece I'm working on for Emotional Mastery for Self Value. And one of the things is, you know, social skills. It's so weird that emotional mastery involves social skills, but it's actually the fourth step of emotional mastery is actually developing more social skills. And I see a lot of people come into our network with very low social skills, and that's gonna be the first place that you should go to start working on your social skills.

[A]

Yeah, it's a big, big part of it, like you said. And not that everyone has to be the most perfect, you know, extrovert on the planet or anything like that, but you've said this before where people will say in the group, sometimes I can't even do a free shoot. People keep canceling or they won't do it with me. And if that is something that you're experiencing, it's so important to look at how you are communicating with people. What are you saying? And sometimes it's just coming up with a script around it that gets people excited.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Right. It's coming up with a script because you clearly don't sound like you know what you're doing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You clearly don't sound excited by it. You maybe sound a little nervous about it. And if you sound nervous, you could come across as creepy, like asking somebody to do a photo and being kind of nervy. That nervous energy is gonna translate to creepiness really quickly. Yeah. You've gotta get excited about your folio building and stop. And if you're worried at all about how people are responding to you. You might need to look at what you're putting out there in terms of how it's being responded to. Like this.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

It's a big one.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I believe there's a lot of self development that needs to go into making people better, stronger and more confident. But the truth is the self development really is self confidence. And you only gain confidence by talking the talk, walking the walk and actually doing the work. And here's the thing, when you get start shooting, you can do it for free or whatever. If you feel comfortable charging, start charging when you feel comfortable. Most people won't. As you shoot each shoot, you get better and better and better. And you start looking at those systems like, you know, you have to be prepared, you know, you have to pre educate, you know you have to connect, you know, you have to have your system of shooting set in. You know, you have to have a retouching system put in, you know, you have to have a follow up. So you start learning that all these systems are suddenly really important. You realize you've got to have a system for educating your client. And they are not going to read your PDF when it's the length of a bible. They are not going to read your PDF. That's true, because it's the length of a bible. They're going to look at the pictures and they're going to read the main title. They are not going to read your PDF, they are not going to come in educated, they are not going to pay you without you asking. So stop pretending that they are and just learn how to share it in an exciting, gorgeous way. And when you create a PDF and a consultation that's as exciting as mine, you want to do it because you know you're winning over each client and then five of their friends, I'm telling you right now, nobody sends you an email or a personal message from your Instagram or a message to your Facebook if they're not interested in what you're doing. So if somebody contacts you and you don't educate them or connect with them in a way that makes them a client, you lost them. And that was potentially two or $3,000. So if they've contacted you in any way you have interest, it's what you're doing next that's going to turn them away. Yeah, yeah, don't be stinky.

[A]

I mean that really sums it up. That's what it comes down to. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, on that note too, I'd like.

[B]

To just summarize with the Multiple ways to make money. Okay. We said portrait studio, part time, full time. We said events, schools, sports photography, real estate. Probably one of the most successful businesses I have in my network is Mark Angelus and Tiffany Angelis. Own a real estate company in la. Obviously they get to shoot these amazing houses, but they also drone in and they have a systemized business that is just extraordinary. Don't see a single person if they don't want to. Personal branding and marketing content for businesses. What episode is Paula Brennan's? That would be a great one for Paula's story. Flipping over.

[A]

Yep. That episode is 43. I mean, she makes $10,000 a day with special personal branding like.

[B]

Yep. And it's amazing.

[A]

It's incredible.

[B]

Yep. And she was the one with the wedding system that was on the prepaid system. So she was getting paid four times a year and four lump sums for 50 weddings, which is absolutely brilliant and smart and so easy to manage your money. Personal photographers for influencers, industry leaders, businesses. Product photography is so big right now. Stock photography, it was also a big one. Caitlin's been making a lot of stock video and stock images and she looked at Creative Market and Canva. Both of them offered, I think, 20 or 30% for photographers creating stock. So Canva and Creative Market's one of the biggest places I send all of our students to when they're designing websites, blogs, everything that Creative Market is just such great. Well, you can license your design on their platforms. Canva is one of the biggest platforms in the world. Digital products, eBooks, magazines, PDF guides, podcasts and videos. Obviously, these are auxiliary products to photography. If you're at the level where you're looking at another income stream or opening your brand to any of those, they're all available to you. Fine art images, fine art products, photography, books. Lucy Gauntlet is one of my favourites. I'm going to try and get Lucy on an interview with you because I know that you will love her. Oh, yeah, she will just drop. Some amazing history of being an architect that earns a lot of money from their fine art images and their hobby. Essentially a lot of dual brands. We're seeing the explosion of hairdressers coming to us that are becoming photographers. Gosh. We have coaches in there, business coaches that are doing photography. Dual brands is when you are something else and photography is a component or an aspect of your life that is a revenue stream for you. Remembering that retouching, marketing and design are three things that photographers often excel at that can be outsourced as other income streams and rule Number one, the foundation of your business is create a folio of the avatar that you most want in your studio that you are in love with. When you love your work, it's easier to show up to it every day. Decide on the genres, the styles, the genres and really the demographic that you mostly love to work with. And that's what you're going to attract. Create a system for every step in your business. Every contact point has a system, whether you need to write a script or practice it out, or just learn experience what those little steps are. Because from first contact to consultation, I can win my client over, book them in, then they come in for their shoot. That's my real connection time. They come back for their viewing. That is the trust payment time. I can guarantee I'm going to get five referrals from this client because of the way I've set up that system. It's heavy on customer service, lots of connection, lots of one on one and it's a lot of work, but it's a big payday so it's really worth it. There are no rules. You can be an employed photographer when you find value in your product and service and when you can give that value with equal exchange, regardless of what it is, it just has to be of equal exchange. So bring your value up. What is the dominant question in your business right now is if you're just starting out, what sort of business do I want to have, what sort of genres do I want to shoot, what sort of business style, how much money do I want to earn, how much do I want to work? And honestly, creating a business around your lifestyle with lots of self value and you're going to keep building it every single day you do it, you're going to get more confident, your photography is going to get better, you're going to get stronger and stronger and you're going to get paid. And then am I sustainable? Am I profitable? Can I sustain this level of work? Can I scale my business? Can it get any bigger? How do I create bigger goals? Like if I've got to that first level and I'm getting work, but I want to be great, how do I go up to that next level? Every single person is creating a step based on their next step. And I can tell you right now, if your next step is too big and too scary, it's not the next step, it's too big, break it down, make it smaller, take the step and that's it. And the foundation is self value, great products, great connection. If you drive that force with work that you love, genres you love and then demographics you love. Like, I love working with 50 year old women. I'm going to be 50 next year. It just occurred to me, I'm looking on YouTube for makeup tutorials. There's no makeup tutorials for 50 year old women. I looked for hairstyling tutorials. There's no hairstyling for 50 year old women. I looked for exercise yoga. I'm looking at all the areas for my age group. Can't find them. Well, if this is the most neglected demographic in the world, I'm about to turn 50 ladies. And I am happy to leave that charge because I'm driven. Like, I want to be a strong, powerful, successful, beautiful 50 year old. Like I want to have a normal face and have some smile lines, but I don't want to have a frown. And I want to just empower women in their 50s and 60s to start a business or to have the life that they want. And if I can't find it, I'm just going to create it. Nikki. And I've gone past the point of am I good enough? And I've gone to the point of, of I have something to share and I'm so excited by this. And the people that like my voice will be drawn to me as my audience and those who don't will find someone else. It's okay. Like, I'm not competing with 22 year old influencers. I'm not like sitting there going, am I good enough? I'm just a 50 year old woman with a strong voice and people follow me because I help them get to the next version of themselves. Like I did myself. So empower yourself to be that. Like you can be whatever you want to be as long as it's authentic to you and you believe that voice and you have some content to share, you can have an audience.

[A]

I love it. It's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful message that you can be whatever you want to be and you just have to go for it and take one step at a time and don't do the comparison. You know, the comparison is the thief of joy. It's.

[B]

Well, you know what, it's the thief of joy. Because when you compare yourself, you compare yourself to someone better or somebody worse. And if you're comparing yourself to someone better, you're not acknowledging the work they've done. And if you compare yourself to somebody worse, you're really just in your ego. Like I'm better than them. So it's like, okay, ego, your ego's not gonna get you paid. Your ego's just, you know, ego's just there for survival purposes only. In fact, if you hear your ego pop up, and I can always tell it's envy. Like when you look at someone and go, why are they so successful? Yuck. You're in a full state of envy. If you were strong in that moment, you would stop and say, why do I envy them? Because they have something I want. So instead of being envious, why don't you create that in your life? And I had to learn that by acknowledging my envy. I'm not afraid of saying it when I experience envy. You have something I want. So I'm gonna work out what that is, and then I'm gonna make it a goal, and then I'm gonna go after it, but I'm not gonna sit there being filthy about it, you know? You know, emotional mastery is probably the ultimate goal. The bottom line, you wanna get to a solution. Focus as fast as you can. But I find the steps. There's four areas to emotional mastery that I find are so interesting. And that's just self awareness. Self. So that just the self awareness of what am I attracting? Oh, what am I getting? And just what am I thinking? And just knowing that if I feel envy, they have something I want. So just acknowledge what that is. Really working on my social skills, the fastest way to get more likable is to like yourself more. Self acceptance is the biggest one. I am who I am. I know what I bring to the table. I know also my faults. I know where I am not good or not strong. And I'm mindful of my conversation. I'm mindful of my energy in the room. I'm mindful even at a networking event, who holds the power in the room and what is my relation to that power? Like, I'm always asking lots of questions. I have open questions, open body language. I am a relationship builder by nature. But confidence was something I had to work on every day.

[A]

I mean, I think it's always a work in progress, don't you think? Like, you and I still have conversations sometimes where we're like, okay, we have to check our own confidence. Or, oh, I kind of moved backwards a little bit. But the beauty is we know what to do. We know how to continue to move forward. When we hit one of those little.

[B]

Roadblocks, because you would ask. So just to preface that, when you call me three years ago and you say, just booked a fourth thousand dollars shoot and then they cancelled and I was like, oh, why and you were like. And I go, no, why? And what I'm really asking you is what was going on with you this day that you woke up expecting to get this, and suddenly it was taken away from you, and you were like, oh, my God. I opened my bank account. I saw that I'd been charged for an overdrawn thing, like $30. I got angry at myself for not watching my money. I said this negative thing to myself. I got into a negative mood. I opened my email and they'd canceled. I'm like, okay. You can push work away really simple by going back to just old programming, old belief system and old focus. So you ask, what was I doing? And I go, well, what were you doing? You told me the answer. And then you ring me two days later to go. So they called me back and rebooked and prepaid. And I go, now, you could say that's bullshit. You could say, that's magic. You could say, whatever that is, I don't care. You asked me, I told you. You corrected it. It came back to you. I work like that because I see it. I see it on a daily basis of people pushing stuff away. And it's unbelievable when you recognize it. So when you ask me, what were you doing? And you went back and you said it, and then it came back to you, you were like, okay. I'm always addressing my own emotional self. My own. The place in which you dwell, that emotional self is like an undercurrent that is more power than just about anything else. So when you are working with people, you've got to have your energy right inside. Like, you can be projecting calm on the outside, but if something tumultuous is going on inside you and at home, everyone can feel it. And it's going to translate into everything you attract. The phone calls you make, the consultations, the marketing you write, the responses you write and your bookings. And it shows up immediately in your income.

[A]

It does. I am a true testament to that. I must say, I am, too.

[B]

I absolutely am too. So remember this. I am a powerful creator. I am a powerful manifesto. So are you, in the positive and the negative. So whatever focus you hold for any period of time, you are creating in that focus. If it's a negative focus, you are attracting and creating in that focus in a negative way. I'm like. So I look at myself like a nuclear reactor. I'm constantly creating, but I'm either contained or I'm unstable. When I'm contained, my energy is flowing to a good source, and it's doing good and it's flowing consistently. When I'm contained, which means blocked, overpowered, or underpowered, I am unstable and I am about to explode, and I am creating in a negative energy at that point, and I will keep doing so. Most people focus on what they don't want so much that they start attracting what they don't want. If you focus on what you don't want, you're going to get more of it. Change the frequency.

[A]

I feel like that needs to be the topic of our next little chat because it's a huge one. It's a big one. You hear that a lot during these podcasts where people will say, it was the self value, it was the self value. It was what I was attracting, it was what I was. I mean, it's. We hear it consistently. It's just such important work to do.

[B]

Strangely, you worked through the self value part faster than most people I work with.

[A]

Really? You think it felt like forever?

[B]

No, Nikki, I felt like you had a really. I know it comes from your dad because I know when I have conversations with you about your dad, like, I know that he, even as a child, he talked to you about money. He used to tell you to, like, always, like, love yourself. Like, he used to say, like, look after yourself, Nikki. Keep yourself nice. Don't let boys take advantage of you, Nikki. You're a strong girl. Like, you gotta be a strong woman. I want you to be. And he never really got to see you become a woman, right?

[A]

Well, I was 24 when he died. I was 24. So he hasn't seen this level of success now. And I don't know that he ever thought I was gonna be successful. I think he, like, that was for my brother and working, but not. Not that he thought I was gonna be like, you know, whatever. But, yeah, it would have been really, really cool for him to see this level of success that I've achieved. Absolutely. But in the end, I had to do the work. I really, truly did. I had to let go of see, and I just did it. I just said, I don't think my dad thought I was gonna really ever gonna be successful. I mean, I still, when I say that out loud, it kind of makes me go, wow. Like, that's really, truly what I used to believe.

[B]

Yeah, but it's what he said to you. It was like he taught you how to have self worth. Like, he would say things like that to you that were just like, nicky, keep it tight, keep it good, keep it clean, keep it, like, keep yourself nice. Like, don't let anybody take that away from you. And like from a dad that's a pretty amazing.

[A]

And I don't think I ever realized it.

[B]

I mean, my dad told me I could be anything. Yeah, yeah, my dad told me I could be strong. He taught me how to hunt and fish and you know, my dad wanted to have strong daughters. I don't think dad taught me anything about self worth because I don't know that he had a lot of self worth. But when I listened to your dad, I feel like your dad had that thing and I feel like you definitely had a strong core value. I just needed to show you you could create it.

[A]

It's so funny cause the opposite sort of experiences that we had, like I remember saying to my dad, I really wanna buy a house. He's like, you can't do that. Like he'd made me feel like I couldn't do things, but he gave me the self worth. So it's so crazy where your dad was completely the opposite of. He taught you could do everything but didn't give you the self worth. Like it's such a mind fuck of like. But it's up to us. And you say it, it's up to us to take whatever story we're living in our head that we don't deserve this, or I can't be that and change it. Rewrite it.

[B]

Yeah, just change it. You can literally change it. I mean all of it can be changed. I feel like you know that you inherit whatever that is from your parents, but now the journey is entirely yours. I work with adults. Whenever childhood trauma or a wounded child or just the voice of the parent comes up, we as 40, 50 year olds, we're crippled with tears and we're crying because my mother said this or my father said this when I was 6 or 7. And yes they did. And whatever reason you had a shitty parent, or a crave parent, or whatever reason, at the end of the day, that was their belief system, they said it to you. You created a belief system, you can change that. And it's their belief system, it's their voice, it's stuck in your head and it's not in there anymore. In fact, it never was. Whatever narrative you come up with, shift it. Whatever you want to create for yourself, create it. But first you have to actually look at what you don't want anymore. And then what you do want, and anything you create has to be created with value to what you're giving. The service, you're giving the product, you're Making and to yourself. And it's an ecosystem of giving and receiving. Like, it's not just about you giving, giving, giving, giving and getting taken advantage of. You are giving an equal exchange and saying thank you and giving again and receiving and giving again. And that can be hard for a lot of people. We have a lot of people with old betrayal wounds that think people are trying to screw them over at every opportunity. They have to get past that before they can trust you know, and you just have to know whatever you're focused on in the negative or the positive is what you are gonna keep attracting. So just look at the way you're looking at things. Shift your perspective, get around people that can give you a different vision as photographers. I always say this. Take off your macro lens, put on your panoramic lens. Look at the big picture. You're looking too close at the wrong thing. Pull back, get a panoramic lens on there. Take time to look around and feel. Trust your gut. Your gut is telling you where you need to go. When you get excited, when you get goosebumps. What are you thinking about? Write it down. It's part of your soul journey. What makes you cry when you're listening to a speaker or watching a video or watching a movie? When do you feel that inspired connection? When you are talking to a friend and you feel your stomach flip over a dream? What is that dream like? Why are you physically responding to all of these things emotionally? There's a message here and you should listen. So listen to what it is, and then you find your voice and your skill set that you master is daily practice. And you only master something you are incredibly joyful or excited about. So if you can really sit with all of those questions and ask yourself, what is it that I truly want? All the answers are inside you if you just listen.

[A]

I love it, love it, love it.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Yep, wise words, too.

[B]

I could talk for too long, but I could literally talk for too long all the time.

[A]

Listen to that last five minutes again. And because truly, it is so, so, so important. And thank you, sue, always, for everything you share with us and give to us. And thank you, as always, I would.

[B]

Like to say as a segue, revenue stream, slash creative option, having a podcast was something we were always going to do. I've owned podcast mics for probably five years. I love being on podcasts. I know I'm not a good interviewer. It was never an option for me to do this podcast. You are a great interviewer, Nikki, and I love listening to your Podcast. I love listening to our podcast. But to. I really think, you know, like, a lot of people don't understand. You were already podcasting when we decided it was you because you were drawn to creating, you know, busy as a mother. And. And I was like, I'm always looking for people that are really doing that work. Right. And I know I've said it before, but it's just such a great thing for you to understand. Nikki didn't get chosen to do this podcast. Nikki was already podcasting. It was her next congruent step. So when people say, I want to be an educator or I want to be a professional photographer, I want to be this, or I want to be a fashion photographer, I say, great, what's your next step? And. And it's often about 80 steps away, and they're not doing the first five because they really don't want to do the first five. Now, I hate being a newbie at things. I hate starting from the beginning. Like, I'm really struggling with yoga right now because I want to be a yogi master, but I can't even do lotus, so I'm somewhere between frustrated and hating my body and my yoga practice, which is not the point of yoga. You've got to be new, and you gotta feel it. And that's the thing. I don't want to feel this. I just want to be a yogi master. Like, can't you just make me a yogi master now? Because I'm done with this newbie stuff. But the truth is, if I want to be a yogi master, I'm going to have to do this. Practice this every day.

[A]

Yep. Well, thank you. And I love doing this. I love being part of it. And it did. It felt like a really good next step. But like you said, it's not something that just happens overnight. And. And again, if you're out there listening and you want certain things, what step are you gonna take today? What step are you gonna take tomorrow?

[B]

Okay. And have some grace. Like, have some grace with yourself to be a learner. But more importantly, only take advice from people that have something you want, because everybody else is just guessing.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

It's that simple. Like, take advice from somebody who actually has what you want, the business you want, or the house you want, or the partner you want, or the lifestyle you want or the income you want. Like, ask them, because they are the one that has it, and they will tell you how to get it. Don't seek advice from people that aren't doing the work, that aren't in the arena and that don't know how to get it or don't have it because they just guessing and I think it's really important. I've always taken my advice from people who were actually doing the work and had what I wanted. And anybody who criticizes me that is not better than me doesn't count. If you criticize me and you're better than me, I'll take it as feedback. If you criticize me and you're not doing the work, go away.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

That's my, that's my ending.

[A]

Always a powerful ending.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

All right. I love you.

[B]

Thanks Nikki and thanks everyone out there. Love you too. Awesome conversation.

[A]

All right, we'll talk soon. Next time, more self value. It'll be fun. Thank you so much for listening to the Portrait System podcast. Your 5 star reviews really help us to continue what we do. So if you like listening, would you mind giving us a review wherever you listen? I also encourage you to head over to soubreiseducation.com where you can find all of the education you need to be a successful photographer. There are over 1, 000 on demand educational videos on things like posing, lighting, styling, retouching, touching, shooting, marketing, sales, business and self value. There's also the 90 day startup challenge plus so many downloads showing hundreds of different poses. We have to do checklists for your business, lighting, PDFs. I mean truly everything to help make you a better photographer and to make you more money. Once Again, that's Sue briceducation.com.