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The Practical Planner
Estate Planning for Crypto & Digital Assets with special guest Tyrone Ross Jr.
00:34:51
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- [00:00]
Ann Rhodes
Foreign.
- [00:09]
Thomas Kopelman
Welcome back to another episode of the Practical Planner podcast. I'm your host, Thomas Kopelman, here with Ann Rhodes, my co host, and then our first ever guest on the podcast, Tyrone Ross, junior. Tyrone, thanks for joining us today, man.
- [00:22]
Tyrone Ross
Thank you for having me. I'm excited for this.
- [00:25]
Thomas Kopelman
Yeah, me too. Let's kind of just start with overview who you are, maybe even your relationship between wealth and you, what you're building, and then we'll be able to hop right into the topic today that I think everybody will understand why we brought you on for it.
- [00:39]
Tyrone Ross
Yeah. So my name is Tyrone Ross. I am the son of Carol and Tyrone Ross, senior superhero parents. I am blessed enough to be a strategic advisor to wealth, which I'm incredibly excited about. Excited for that announcement that went out a month or so ago. I am the CEO and co founder of a company called Turnkey Labs, which just think about it as the plaid of Crypto, and the CEO and principal at 401 Financial, which is a registered investment advisor here in California.
- [01:17]
Thomas Kopelman
Perfect. Well, I'm excited to really dive into this topic today. I think, you know, the goal of our podcast here is educate everybody, advisors on everything they need to know about estate planning. And I think one area that even if you Google it, I feel like there's not even that many, like, search hits around is just the entire estate planning for crypto space. You know, I have clients with crypto. I talk to people with crypto. I think everybody just assumes it works the same as any other asset. Right. You add a beneficiary or, you know, it can be funded in your trust, etc. But people don't really get how it works. So I think goal of today is to really start to talk about why it's different with crypto and how to really do proper estate planning with the crypto assets that you hold.
- [02:06]
Tyrone Ross
Yeah. So again, this is, this is something for me that it's a. It's a real problem in many ways. I've said to Rafael, the CEO of wealth and a bunch of folks that the opportunity around estate planning in crypto, to me is the biggest opportunity there is because there is just not. One, a lot of estate planners and financial advisors that want to deal with this. Two, the data capture is horrendous. And three, something that the advisors who constantly have all the fancy letters after their name on Twitter don't know anything about is the space was set up for retail, it wasn't set up for institutions. So your clients that are buying this asset when they go to open These accounts, they're not asked for beneficiary information, they're not asked for, they're not given multiple account types. It's open an account, buy, sell, trade your heart out, do whatever. So there's a massive gap there. And what I've been saying for years is we're going to see this in the news. A massive estate at Coinbase that is just sitting there is going to present a myriad of problems. That account more than likely is going to be attached to an advisor and that advisor is going to find out on CNBC that that client had that account, the family's fighting over it or whatever, and the person just had the account labeled in their name or whatever else. And there's going to be a fight over the assets. And what happens next is going to be interesting. Based on where that account is domiciled when it was open, what are the assets that are held, There's a lot of issues there. So the opportunities here are immense for advisors listening to add value.
- [03:50]
Ann Rhodes
Tyrone, it's so interesting you should mention that about these massive accounts that could just be sitting there, right? Because in the population of crypto investors, you see those who are kind of more casual investors and then you see people who are like literally founding currencies and who have millions, billions tied up in these assets. And probably as a financial advisor, if you have a client even who's a casual investor, you still need to think about what happens to crypto. And one of the things that I always say, which is so antithetical to how you think about crypto, which seems like this new cutting edge asset, super tech focused, is that actually if you pass away with crypto, it's just in your estate like there's no exchange right now that gives you a little form to fill out like your foreign K. And by, by the way, we all know how many 401ks get, you know, left to no beneficiary gets unclaimed and the administrators are pulling out their hair trying to figure out where this goes. But that will be multiplied for crypto, right? And this like very new edge tech focused asset actually passes through your will like it's such an old school instrument, right?
- [05:06]
Tyrone Ross
So yes, very old school in that way. And my partner and I, Eric Smith, talk about this all the time. Think about this, right? Mr. Mrs. Client owns NFTs, right? Mrs. Client passes away. Mr. Client knows nothing about NFTs and crypto. Mr. Client wants to grieve. Mr. Client says, all right, I want to sell this NFT and I sell it at the floor, right? Floor meaning the price of whatever it's saying, whatever it's 2 ETH, it's 3 ETH, whatever it is. Meanwhile, Mr. Client also don't know that Mrs. Client was a part of an NFT community where folks would have given anything to get access to that NFT that they had. But I just wanted to hit the button because I wanted the money, right? But now I could have went to that community and probably gotten two, three, four times more. You don't know that unless you're me or Eric that that's a possibility.
- [06:04]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [06:05]
Tyrone Ross
Where the advisor is just let's do these things to divest of these assets, to do on so on and so forth. So this is the big issue here when it comes to crypto because it's not just the asset. There's communities attached to this, there's protocols attached to this, there's technology attached to it. Old school in the sense that you said. Yes, but which is why the advisors listening is who cares how you feel about it? You better have someone that is doing this so you can refer the client to that person and they could say whoa, whoa, whoa, well you got moonbirds here. Or you have this particular type of asset that is being staked and you're owning these rewards. Another one that we talk about is what happens when there's a creator that is streaming royalties from a particular work that they created. They pass away. What happens now? It's written in a smart contract that those streaming rewards are going to this particular account. The advisor can't see it. What happens to the assets then? There's a lot of issues here with estate planning that I think most folks just aren't set up for to understand. But the basics as you said of just all right, the pass through, like what, what happens and then who outside of these actual individual understands what to do with it if they're gone? Right, so there's a lot of old school problems here and there's some new school problems too that creates again a lot of opportunity to add value but unfortunately a lot of wealth that is going to be lost.
- [07:33]
Thomas Kopelman
Yeah, yeah.
- [07:34]
Ann Rhodes
Let me ask you this question. I'm sorry Thomas, let me just jump in here because this is so interesting that you said about like this lack of knowledge and education in this space and wasted assets, right? Like you're talking about this guy, this, right? Who's who's received, inherited, you know, NFTs but had has no idea of the true value of them or that there are certain markets and communities that would value them more than others. And so they're wasting away the assets by just selling them at the floor, is that.
- [08:02]
Tyrone Ross
Yeah.
- [08:04]
Ann Rhodes
And so that's so interesting because in the law, if you are a trustee or an executor of an estate, you actually have a duty to not waste away assets. You have a duty to invest them prudently and to try to derive the maximum value of this. I'll give you a quick example. In the art space, right, Like, I had a lot of clients that passed away with art collections. You actually had to be careful not to flood the market. And this happens also with highly concentrated stock positions. Like if you sell all of your stock in this big company all at once, then yes, you're gonna immediately depreciate the value and the beneficiaries can actually sue you for not having some sort of plan and strategy for enacting the sale. And so this is so interesting to me because I predict that there's going to be a lot of litigation in the space.
- [08:53]
Tyrone Ross
100%.
- [08:55]
Ann Rhodes
100% sure he's going to be angry that you sold it at the floor as a fiduciary.
- [09:00]
Tyrone Ross
Absolutely.
- [09:02]
Thomas Kopelman
Yeah, really good point. There's one thing I want to go back to, I mean, obviously is the Practical Planner podcast in Tyrone. A lot of what you talk about here is like, you know, Mr. Advisor, who doesn't even know that his client has crypto assets, or like, you know, that type of advisor sees client come in and client either never mentions they have crypto, which is a problem because no matter what you believe, you still need to help on proper management of it, proper estate planning of it, etc. But I think this opens the door to, you know, let advisors know that you can't always just have people come in and tell them to sell everything, right? It's a common thing for advisors. I don't believe in bitcoin. Sell it right away. I don't believe in either. Sell it right away. I. I don't believe in, you know, NFTs selling right right away. They still do it with, you know, a lot of clients with equity compensation too, right? Like, oh, your company's terrible, you should sell it. CFB textbook says this, but we are been preaching in our entire industry about behavioral finance, right? Like behavioral finance, this get to know people, understand them, this like that. Well, you can't just tell people to just go sell everything that they have because it's something that you don't believe in. And so like, you know, you have to create the ability for you know, your clients to feel comfortable talking to you about these assets and coming up with a plan together that you both feel good about. I mean, I think this is like a takeaway that advisors need to. I think they just need to be more open, right? Like, you don't only have to tell your clients or let them do exactly what you believe in. You have to meet them in the middle and have these conversations. And that's going to create a better environment and create a better relationship between you and your clients.
- [10:36]
Tyrone Ross
Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. And I think you personally do a good job of that. You know, on, on your X account and just on social. But my mentor, Merrill lynch, always, he. I would meet with him every Friday and he would go through all. He taught me how to be a financial advisor, right? And he's still one of the most gargantuan, biggest, most successful advisors at Merrill Lynch. And he said, look, the best advisors have an opinion, but they don't let that opinion interfere with the advice that they give clients. But they have to give their opinion because the clients want to know how do you feel about it? And you should have an opinion on that. You should be able to back up your opinion with high quality data and guidance and then share that with the client. But also, whatever a client walks in with, because folks may have made their wealth in real estate, should have made that could have made their wealth through an inheritance or through stock or through crypto. That shouldn't be important to you. What should be important to you is helping that person achieve their goals. And yes, you should have an opinion. You should share that opinion, but you should also give that opinion juxtaposed to what is in the best interest of the client, not what's in the best interest of you. And I think when it comes to advisors, they forget that they're doing what's in the best interest of themselves with crypto and just saying, I want to be the advisor that says I hate it. And here's why. Well, that's not. That's in your best interest. It's in the best interest of the client that you understand where they hold it, why they hold it, how much they hold what they've been doing away from you. And that makes you a really good financial advisor. From a. Don't. And don't get me started on the planning side. The CFP board just came out and said, listen, being a fiduciary doesn't preclude you, right? Or stop you from giving advice on this. You don't have to, but it doesn't stop you. That's a big thing. And then the other thing is if you are going to, these are the things that you should be doing. And I think that's a huge step for the industry because a lot of advisors were hiding behind that. But now it's, hey, you can have a conversation around this. You can, you know, be forward thinking if you will, include it in your conversations, but just handle it this way. So you make a very good point. And I just think advisors, if they look at it as any other holding that the client would have. And you notice as an advisor, our clients always are doing stuff away from us. Right? You always. But they don't want to tell you about the penny stocks they were traded until it was like, oh, I got $2,000 left, help. It's like, now you want to bring it to me and tell me, right? So they're always doing stuff away from us. This is no different. Just, you know, treat it as such and move on.
- [13:17]
Ann Rhodes
Tyrone, this is what's called loss harvesting.
- [13:24]
Thomas Kopelman
Exactly.
- [13:25]
Tyrone Ross
Yeah. Well, okay.
- [13:26]
Thomas Kopelman
So Tyrone, I'm curious on the estate planning side of this, maybe it's most helpful to. I think we got to give people some takeaways here of like, how do we think about estate planning with crypto? But maybe we need to break it up between like ones at custodians. Like if you hold bitcoin at, you know, Swan or Coinbase is different than if you're holding on, you know, cold storage wallet, right? And so maybe we start to talk about like, what does good estate planning look like in both of those worlds?
- [13:56]
Tyrone Ross
Great question. So I think any, any client that has a Coinbase or Gemini account or Kraken account or whatever, first thing is, is to see it, right? And know that they hold it and see it because you know right away if they have that, there's no beneficiary listed on that. So the next thing is to go, all right, fine, I know how much you hold, I know where you hold it, I know all these things, I know the amount, all of that. Bring it into the existing conversation, redo the plan, and then you get into the digital fiduciary conversation. Mr. Mrs. Client, in the event something happens to you, who besides you knows what the hell a bitcoin is, right? Mr. And Mrs. Klein, do you also just simply know the password to get into your Coinbase account? We should have all those things saved, so on and so forth, right? And then you start to graduate the conversation from there. Obviously, the amount Would get into other estate planning conversations. Right. There are some rule changes coming. So if a client wanted to do some things, donor advised funds, like there's a whole bunch of things you can do, but you just got to know where it is, how much it is.
- [15:04]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [15:05]
Tyrone Ross
Getting, getting a digital fiduciary or someone else outside of them that understands it, notify that person, make sure they're being brought into the conversation.
- [15:14]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [15:14]
Tyrone Ross
And go from there and then from.
- [15:18]
Thomas Kopelman
So that one's a little bit easier.
- [15:20]
Tyrone Ross
Yeah, that one's easier for sure. Centralized. It's a lot easier.
- [15:22]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [15:23]
Tyrone Ross
And then you again, you can get into the security standpoint. What's best for the client? Is it best to leave it at an exchange versus the client, take it off and hold it in cold storage. Right. Based on the goals.
- [15:33]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [15:34]
Tyrone Ross
By the way, advisors, you're going to be held to the fire for that. So to simply say, oh, it's the best interest of the client to leave it at Coinbase, was it? Right. Ah, best house in a bad neighborhood for sure. But there may be better options based on what the client's goals were that they told you around, whatever that they hold there. So that's. The centralized part is a little easier depending on what advisors are doing.
- [16:01]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [16:03]
Tyrone Ross
On the self custody side, you open up a whole Pandora's box of issues, which is incredibly important to understand. So one again, making sure. All right, Mr. And Mrs. Client, where do you hold it? I have it on a hardware wallet. Okay, great. What type? These are all things that you want to know.
- [16:23]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [16:23]
Tyrone Ross
Then you get into seed phrases and keys and all these different things. You also get into the point of.
- [16:32]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [16:33]
Tyrone Ross
Key management.
- [16:35]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [16:35]
Tyrone Ross
Is it just the client holds that key themselves? Is it multi sig. Right. Multi signature, meaning Tyrone has a key, Thomas has a key, Ann has a key.
- [16:44]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [16:45]
Tyrone Ross
But do I want to get into a situation where. And I've had this conversation with the sec, is an advisor holding a piece of a key custody? I say no. They probably say yes right now. So advisors and estate attorneys are not really wanting to get into that, but I think there's some value to be had there. So just simply key management, where's the client holding? It's like your real life example. This was years ago, 2017 maybe. I had a client, they did everything they were supposed to do. Bought on an exchange, took it off the exchange, put it on a hardware wallet. And then it came to me, it was like, well, what do I do now with my hardware wallet? Do I put it in a safe Deposit box. I'm like, well, that's kind of going back in time, right? And at the time, like, this was what, six years ago? I was like, that's a really good question. Now what happens, right, you know, are you have a cold card, so you don't want to write your seed phrase on a piece of paper like this. It gets wet, you get coffee on it. Now I can't. Oh, what's that word?
- [17:46]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [17:46]
Tyrone Ross
So these are all things that advisors have to bring up to the client and solutions for it. So once all of that's done, now you get into the conversation of.
- [17:59]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [17:59]
Tyrone Ross
The next level of all right. Making sure that there is someone else who understands this. Right. If the advisor is going to take that on to help the client with key storage and all those other things, maybe bringing in outside sources, whether it's a casa or something like that, for the client to, you know, store their keys, get that out of, you know, their own holdings, their personal holdings, and getting some of that security issue off of them.
- [18:30]
Thomas Kopelman
And I. That's a really important point that I want to just reiterate for people is like, that is the hard part, right. I think people worry, I'm going to move this to cold storage. Okay. I have the wallet and I have the seed phrase. That's it. What happens if there's a fire? Or what happens if I lose a piece of paper? You're just saying you had a third source. So that way, like, if the wallet breaks or you lose the seed phrase, you have this app and two of the three can still open it. Like that is like, I think crypto, one on one is make sure that you have that box checked.
- [18:58]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [18:59]
Tyrone Ross
And which leads me. You led me right to this. Is social recovery something that TRADFI should think about doing, by the way, but that a lot of wallets are starting to have a social recovery. So now I, when I'm opening this account, I list Thomas as someone that if I'm locked out of my account or I can't get in, he has the ability. One I've labeled him as someone that has the information that can get me in.
- [19:29]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [19:30]
Tyrone Ross
So social recovery is a big one. So that should be part of an advisor thing, right? Do have you enacted social recovery on this? Or are you using a wallet with social recovery? That's a big one. If not, maybe we want to think about that, right? Because I've been trying to get you logged into the red, you know, the red tail account, or trying to get you into Schwab multiple Times and you keep forgetting the password. Think about this major issue in our industry is how many times do advisors have to go to a client to go, Mr. And Mrs. Client got to relink your 401k again because link broke. You see what I'm saying? So it's like these are all things that happen in the traditional world. Now you do that in crypto, it creates a whole myriad of problems. Right. So remembering passwords, remembering C phrases. Right. You know key storage is important.
- [20:23]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [20:24]
Tyrone Ross
How you have keys set up. Multisig may make sense for some clients, it may make, it may not make sense for others. And understanding how, you know, if the client is digitally savvy, right. And they understand these things, there's still going to be a point where they're going to need some help.
- [20:42]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [20:43]
Tyrone Ross
With managing keys and all of that. And obviously over time these things will be abstracted away. They're starting to be. So it's a lot easier for folks to just have a wallet, store their assets and not have to worry about this. But these are all of the, they're surface level things, but they have other layers that kind of get bigger on the estate planning side that I think where financial advisors can add a lot of value.
- [21:06]
Ann Rhodes
Yeah. It's interesting, Tyrone, that you should mention the social recovery, the wallets with that feature because obviously@wealth.com, we have our emergency access portal and you have to also, as the user name somebody, two people that you trust so that there's checks and balances to unlocking your estate plan because people lose their, you know, original wills all the time. And so, you know, we worry about these things too. So it's interesting that, you know, a lot of that kind of self hosted, you know, you still need to have backups for those things.
- [21:41]
Tyrone Ross
Yep.
- [21:41]
Ann Rhodes
I wonder if we can kind of also talk about beneficiaries. Right. Because not all beneficiaries will want to have crypto. They may not feel comfortable with it. It may be like morally or some, you know, just they don't understand it, they don't want it. Right. And so how do you as a financial advisor think through, you know, with your client, what is the kind of post death plan with these assets? Should it be that you give your assets to just one beneficiary who's super into it and then make the others whole? Or do you somehow have a plan for divestment? So if you have like a charity, for example, as your, one of your beneficiaries, they would probably want to liquidate. Right. That position. So how do you, how do you think through those issues?
- [22:29]
Tyrone Ross
Man, I, I love that you mentioned that because again, it's something that we discuss a lot at 4:1, everyone is not going to be a beneficiary. That's also the biggest thing here, right. Some people don't want to be listed as a trustee or an executive. I'm good. Give that to somebody else doing all this stuff and filing your taxes and doing all that when you die. Like, what's in it for me? But everyone is not going to be listed a beneficiary. One second thing is what we do is we, we have like we. And again, I want to stay by saying for one is a very bad proxy. Like we are so deep in crypto, the way we run our firm and what we do there, most people would flip out, right? Especially on the crypto side. But we have very, very in depth conversations around this because we have solutions that could prevent solutions that the average advisor is not going to figure out for 10 years. But what we do is we have unique conversations with them around. Again, if they're digitally savvy is like, can some of this be done in a smart contract to take that out of them? So we can say already you list this person as a beneficiary. Smart contract can be written in the wallet that they have. Those assets are just going to go there. And then you say, all right, every fifth of the month, so on and so forth, whatever. You can write all of that in a smart contract and it's done. We've had these conversations. Like again, is that happening with everyone? No, but there are clients that can go back and write their own smart contract as part of their estate plan.
- [23:53]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [23:53]
Tyrone Ross
I don't think wealth.com is there yet. This space isn't. But that's happening like right now on a much 20, 23 closer to today level is again, all right, here is someone that is willing to have this conversation paired with social recovery, but also having conversations with them in reviews.
- [24:17]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [24:18]
Tyrone Ross
What we do is like, we do like these 3, 6, 9, 12 month, not necessarily reviews, but plans where it's like in the next three months, if this was to happen, this is what we would do in the next six months of things would happen. And we kind of like bucket out that approach with crypto because the space moves so fast with the technology. So if we're meeting with them and say in three months. Okay, well, in the event of this happening or this changed, here's what would happen from an estate planning Standpoint. So one of the things that happens in the traditional world, estate planning is kind of like set it and forget it. And there's rare updates in crypto. It has to be more frequent. So we do monthly meetings anyway. So I think as part of the investor policy statement, as part of the financial planning, as part of an estate plan, you cannot review a client's estate plan every, you know, year or two years. It has to be more frequent. Yeah, because. Right, because, Right. Because things may happen. Right. A lot of different things may happen. So I just think the frequency of that conversation and then understanding certain things that, whatever a hack here that meant this. Imagine being a client doing estate planning with clients. Now where they were a client at BlockFi, they had a BlockFi account and now some of their funds are coming back and then having the tax conversation around that. As far as the estate planning, like there's a lot here. So you have to have that conversation more because things move so quickly. So I think forcing clients to think about that, especially because they're so young, they're not thinking about mortality. I'm going to live forever. I'm going to be the Warren Buffett of crypto. Right. It's like, okay, I get it. Right. But just in case something happens to you when you're snowboarding and wherever, like, let's try and figure this out. So I think at bare minimum, it's just a more frequent conversation.
- [26:16]
Ann Rhodes
Yeah. And in what you're saying here about the frequency of the conversation, therein lies the opportunity with crypto for you as a financial advisor. Don't just be scared to have the conversation or anti crypto just because your clients are bringing it in and you don't think that it should belong in their portfolio because you're actually losing the opportunity to one, educate yourself, but to prove your value to that client. Because instead of having the conversation once a year and it kind of feels like, you know, clients punting you on the calendar, it's like, no, they come to you, they look forward to that conversation. Because the field is moving so fast. I mean, life insurance is not moving as fast as crypto.
- [26:57]
Tyrone Ross
Exactly.
- [26:58]
Ann Rhodes
This is a product where you really bring value. Anyways, I, I love that.
- [27:05]
Tyrone Ross
No, that's a great point. And I wish we. I could screw. I mean, I'm past the point of arguing with advisors about this now. I just try to educate, but if I could anything I could I scream over a megaphone, it would be what you just said. It's just that. Just be conversant. Have the conversation, the space moves quickly. There's a lot happening. Be a sounding board for the client. And then you. We get referrals from advisors we never spoke to. And they're like that. Tyrone and Eric, go talk to them.
- [27:33]
Eric Smith
Right?
- [27:33]
Tyrone Ross
And it's like, how'd you find us? And they're like, our advisor just sent me to you. I just. Right. And we have an interesting case that we're working on now. And it's so sad that what is happening is a lot of money. And he's like, my advisor just simply won't help me. At the end of the day, whether it's estate planning, tax planning, financial planning, investment management, portfolio construction, or whatever, advisors just simply being open to the conversation goes a long way. And they trust you and they like you. And even if you say, hey, I know somebody much better for you to talk to.
- [28:07]
Eric Smith
Right.
- [28:09]
Tyrone Ross
We tell advisors all the time. We don't. We're not a, um, based firm anyway. We don't want the assets. But just bring us in. We. We had a recent call with some big advisors at Creative Planning. Client brought us in. We sat with the advisors. There was some tax and tax issues, Right. It took them months. We came back in an hour and a half. Not only with the problem solved, but we gave them projections of issues and things to solve in the year ahead. An hour and a half. Why? Because we have data, resources, and technology that they don't. They're the hero. We walk away.
- [28:43]
Eric Smith
Right?
- [28:43]
Tyrone Ross
So every advisor should have that, but you don't know that if you just don't open up the conversation. So you nailed it.
- [28:50]
Ann Rhodes
So, Tyrone, I will say something about those smart contracts embedded in the way that you, you know, your clients are holding their crypto. We're going to create a product, you and I together, for estate planning. I'm going to call it. Stay on the podcast. You and I are going to sell this product. It's going to be amazing. And let's talk.
- [29:09]
Tyrone Ross
Let's do it. Yeah, absolutely, guys. Let's do it today.
- [29:13]
Ann Rhodes
Gonna patent it or copyright it or whatever it's called. You know, I always wondered, like, how estate planners come up with anything, like, you know, new and creative. Today I just came up with something. So there it is.
- [29:25]
Tyrone Ross
There you go.
- [29:27]
Thomas Kopelman
So really, I mean, I guess wrapping up this conversation, it sounds like step one for advisors is like, you know, create a space where you can even have the conversation to know that your clients have these assets. Two is like, it might be different than traditional estate planning, but, like, you have to understand how to do estate planning with these crypto assets because it's really important and I think the conversation with them around this of, hey, make sure we're being smart about who's going to help inherit, who's going to inherit these assets or who's going to help just make sure they get passed on correctly. Because I'm just thinking about like I have a bunch of clients where they're like, you know, spouse, you know, only comes to the planning meetings about goals and stuff because they don't really love finances, they don't really know that much that's going on. Like you can't hand off like your cold storage wallet to somebody who doesn't even know what an IRA is. Right? Like that's probably not setting yourself up for success. So have those conversations and just be like proactive on this and continue to review it often. I think the one part that we didn't talk about is crypto is a really great asset to be used in estate planning tools like in this podcast. We haven't even gone into some of the irrevocable trust, but if you have a high net worth at a young age and we know all the estate changes that are coming, moving these high growth assets into irrevocable trust, not all of them, but a portion of them so that growth can be out of your estate is really impactful. And then also these are great assets for donor advised funds, right? I know tax loss harvesting is really, really great in crypto, but you also have this really awesome opportunity if you're going to continue to buy into crypto and you're going to continue to donate, donating some of this crypto into a donor advised fund and rebuying back and getting a higher cost basis. As you know, we move into the year of the etf, probably the year of the having again, like, hey, who knows, those could be really good opportunities for you, right?
- [31:13]
Tyrone Ross
Again, all great points. Like I briefly mentioned donor advised funds, but what you just said is again, that's the value that advisors give. You just went on there. You didn't mention about anything about a layer one, a layer two, bridge chains. It was no crypto there. It was just these are just basic things that you should be doing to benefit because you hold an asset. So I think that's what you just did is what every advisor could do. And then now you're, you look smart because they're like the hell is a donor advised fund? Right? What's their revocable trust? I don't know anything about that. Right now they may ping pong and go, well that's great. Well I could take my Ethan, I could stake it here and then I could do this. I don't want to sell it. Right. So it goes back and forth. But that conversation should be brought up because that may. It's an option that you didn't think about especially because there's still no wash sale rule. So that opens up a whole like litany of things from an estate planning standpoint until that changes should be taken advantage of, that in particular type of accounts based on age, based on time horizon, all of these different things that are the key buzzwords that advisors throw around every day anyway.
- [32:22]
Ann Rhodes
But my last shout out that I'll say is, Tyrone, I really appreciated that you called out your parents. I don't think I've ever done it. So. Hi mom, Hi Dad. If you're listening, I'm the daughter of Ping Lee and Feng Shu who are immigrants to this country and live in Massachusetts.
- [32:38]
Tyrone Ross
Absolutely. That's one thing I want to encourage for us to do that more parents don't get enough credit, especially those that. And they all sacrifice. But my sacrifice, sacrifice so much for me to be able to live a life that they still can't fathom. Still can't get my mother to call Bitcoin stop calling it a big nickel, which she calls it. But I always shout them out in every interview that I do.
- [33:01]
Thomas Kopelman
We got to talk about the integration with your company. I mean that's, that's super big. It's coming out really soon and I think everybody would love to hear about it.
- [33:10]
Tyrone Ross
Yeah, absolutely. So the goal was to tease it here so I won't give away too much. But there is going to be an integration coming with the wealth platform and Turnkey Labs, which is awesome, is going to give you a lot of help in a lot of the things that we spoke about earlier, which is again just being able to see those held away assets, bringing them into a plan, bring them into your estate plan and planning and be able to give a lot of bespoke advice around crypto assets that your clients may hold. And again it's a zero lift for the advisors. Right. It's not, you're not touching anything or doing anything. It's on the client to give you view and you'll be able to do a lot of different things. So there'll be news coming on that soon. The build will start next month, I believe. So we're excited for that, which is.
- [34:01]
Thomas Kopelman
Huge because I sit there with every new or every client. I'm like, hey, let's go in here and update your crypto. And it's like double or half or, you know, whatever. We're like, okay, we have, you know, 4.2 eth and 6 bitcoin. All right, let me go look up today's price. Let me multiply it. Let's get it in there. We meet next week. Entirely different. So it'll be nice for us to be able to like have that info in front of us because you all, we all know, right? Capital E money. They don't have any, any integrations even to a coinbase, let alone if you have it on cold storage.
- [34:30]
Tyrone Ross
Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been fun, guys. Thank you for having me.
- [34:35]
Thomas Kopelman
Yeah, thanks for coming on and everybody, thank you for listening. Please rate, subscribe and and we'll see you back for the next episode.