Top Client Questions

Summary

The Practical Planner – "Top Client Questions"

Episode Date: September 22, 2025
Hosts: Thomas Kopelman & Dave Haughton
Produced by: wealth.com

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the complexities of estate planning from a state-specific perspective, equipping advisors with actionable insights to better serve clients across differing legal landscapes. Hosts Thomas Kopelman and Dave Haughton focus on key distinctions in state laws, such as probate, homestead exemptions, Medicaid/Medicare planning, and state estate/inheritance taxes. They stress the importance of nuanced, location-specific guidance rather than broad, generic strategies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Crucial Role of State Law in Estate Planning

• Estate planning is not one-size-fits-all. The state a client lives in dramatically impacts the effectiveness of their plan.
• Many advisors and clients default to federal estate tax concerns, but state-level taxes, probate rules, homestead protection, and Medicaid eligibility can be just as, or even more, relevant for many clients.
• “Sometimes gets missed because people think of about estate planning in a really generic way, thinking avoid probate. And my estate's not necessarily big enough to worry about federal estate taxes. Therefore, I can keep it really simple. It's not necessarily the case. Depending on where they live.” — Dave Haughton (02:09)

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2. Probate Nuances by State ([03:26]–[06:30])

• States where probate is less onerous:
  • Washington and Texas are cited as locations where probate is relatively straightforward—not necessarily requiring a trust to avoid the courts.
• States where probate can be a nightmare:
  • Massachusetts, Florida, New York, Georgia, Tennessee, and surprisingly Alaska are mentioned as states where probate can be costly, time-consuming, and fraught with bureaucratic hurdles.
• The COVID pandemic exacerbated court backlogs everywhere, making probate riskier and more drawn out—a reminder to over-prepare even in “easier” states.
• Notable quote:
  • “In Massachusetts … you just witness an insensitivity to people who are dealing with really difficult times, that they could have avoided all that if they had just avoided probate…” — Dave Haughton [04:36]

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3. Homestead Exemption Variability ([06:32]–[11:14])

• Homestead helps protect the value of the home from unsecured creditors (but not from the mortgage itself).
• The amount protected varies dramatically:
  • Unlimited protection: Florida, Texas, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma, South Dakota.
  • High but capped: California ($300–600k), Nevada ($605k), Minnesota ($450k+), Massachusetts ($500k), Arizona ($400k).
  • None or minimal: New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia.
• State homestead rules can dictate required trust provisions or paperwork when transferring the home into a trust.
• Practical insight: The level of homestead protection should factor into asset protection strategies and umbrella insurance needs.
• Memorable moment:
  • “Some people get advice, like I talked to a business owner who said...he was always told by other lawyers you should always buy as many houses and as much house as you can in Texas because at least that's protected.” — Thomas Kopelman [07:24]
  • Dave pushes back: “That's when the tail wags the dog … you don't know that something's going to happen and nothing should ever happen.” [07:57]
• Practical tip: Knowing your state’s rules is essential before moving forward with estate planning decisions involving real estate, trusts, or liability insurance.

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4. Medicaid (Long-term Care) vs Medicare ([11:17]–[16:31])

• Medicare is federal (health insurance); Medicaid is state-administered (nursing home/long-term care benefits).
• Medicaid eligibility and asset protection opportunities (via irrevocable trusts, for example) are subject to highly variable state rules and nuanced legal interpretations.
• There are strict “look-back” periods (commonly 3–5 years) to prevent abuse, and trusts must be carefully structured to avoid disqualifying the applicant.
• Over-planning can compromise quality of life in later years if assets are too aggressively sheltered.
• Key insight:
  • “If you set up one of these Medicaid trusts in a state and you put in some provisions that are not permitted...when it was too late ... you find out that there was some flaws in the trust.” — Dave Haughton [12:28]
• Ethical concern: As a planner or child, pushing parents to impoverish themselves solely to preserve inheritance may not be in the client’s best interests.
  • “Hopefully you're like a little bit better of a kid than the person to be like, yes, mom and dad, hide all of your assets so I can get your money.” — Thomas Kopelman [15:35]

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5. State Estate and Inheritance Taxes ([16:39]–[23:07])

• Estate taxes: Many states have separate estate tax systems, typically with lower exemption amounts than the federal government ($2M–$7M is common).
  • Most states do not allow “portability” of exemption between spouses. Planning is required to capitalize on each spouse’s exemption, often via credit shelter trusts.
• Inheritance taxes: Fewer states have these, and rates/exemptions can depend on the relationship to the decedent (children usually pay less than more distant heirs).
  • Highlighted states: Pennsylvania (varies by beneficiary class), Kentucky, Nebraska, New Jersey, Iowa, Maryland.
• Importance of trust planning to avoid unnecessary taxes, especially since state rules often are not as flexible as the federal system.
• Practical example:
  • “If the first spouse had passed away and they put that $2 million into a credit shelter trust...theoretically there's no tax.” — Dave Haughton [18:54]
• Timing and relationship matter: Some states require verification that inheritance taxes have been paid before assets (like IRAs) can be distributed—even those passing by beneficiary designation.

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6. Multi-State Family Planning Considerations ([21:52]–[23:31])

• The location of both the client and their heirs can matter—a child inheriting in a high-tax state faces different planning needs than one in a no-tax state.
• Thoughtful beneficiary designation (who gets which assets) can meaningfully reduce future tax burdens across generations.
• Example:
  • “If they live in California and I have another child that lives in Florida, maybe it's going to make a little bit more sense to allocate those beneficiary designations a little bit differently.” — Dave Haughton [23:07]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It's such an important topic to raise, not just for the client, ... but also for the children.” — Dave Haughton [21:52]
• “You should always be a little bit concerned if the kids are driving the planning decisions towards their parents giving up control to protect it for their own benefit.” — Dave Haughton [16:21]
• “Avoiding probate isn't that critical [in some states]. … You have to remember that COVID ... shut down every court. And even now that's reverberated... avoiding probate, if you're in a state that ... isn't that burdensome, you have to remember that things like COVID can happen.” — Dave Haughton [05:23]
• “Knowing your state's rules is essential before moving forward with estate planning decisions involving real estate, trusts, or liability insurance.” — Paraphrased from Thomas & Dave [11:14]

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Key Takeaways for Advisors

• Always anchor estate planning conversations in the client's state of residence—with follow-up consideration for where heirs reside.
• Regularly review the probate processes, tax exemptions, and asset protection statutes in your client’s state(s) to adjust strategies accordingly.
• Use specific, state-optimized language in planning documents and educate clients thoroughly about their unique risks and opportunities.
• Don't overlook the implications of changing domiciles for aging parents or migrating beneficiaries.
• Stay vigilant about the interplay between asset titling, beneficiary designations, homestead laws, and state-specific trust provisions.

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[End of Summary]

This episode is essential listening for any advisor seeking to deliver nuanced, customized estate planning while sidestepping the pitfalls of generic guidance.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

What is up? And welcome back, everyone, to another episode of the Practical Planner podcast. I'm your co host, Thomas Koppelman. Here with me again is Dave Haughton. Dave, how you doing today, man?

[A]

I'm great. How are you?

[B]

I am doing well. I'm excited to chat about some state specific issues with estate planning. I think I've seen you write an article on Kitsis about this. Am I wrong?

[A]

I mean, it certainly comes up a lot. I don't know that I've, I've directly addressed it, but being in a state, you know, they call it taxachetts. You know, I'm very sensitive to state tax issues. Like, you know, it's, it's one of the more unfavorable states from a tax perspective. That there are definitely worse, but it's, it's something that's always top of mind.

[B]

Yeah. And I'll just plug Dave if you guys want to go read some complex estate planning. There's no better combo than Kitsis and Dave, so he has tons of articles you can go read and check it out. But I'm really excited to dive into it today because I think when we, when we think about estate planning, when we think about estate tax planning, most people's mind just goes to federal and it makes sense, right? 40% estate tax is going to be way higher than any specific state. So I think when you think about the estate tax limit, it really you are going to go federally. Sure. For some of the lower net worth or middle net worth people only state actually applies. But when we think about this, it's more than just estate tax planning. It's just in general estate planning. How things differ state to state, state, Medicare, homestead. You know, we already in the last episode talked about joint versus individual trust. I don't think we need to. I guess that falls into community property versus not. And then I'm kind of curious to talk a little bit about. I know Massachusetts is different. I'm pretty sure Louisiana is different on a lot of the ways estate planning works there. But love to hear from you on like where your mind goes when we think about state estate planning.

[A]

Yeah, I think it's just a critical nuance to know is where does your client live and how does that affect their estate plan? Because there are a litany of issues that could come up, even right down to where I am in Massachusetts. A lot of people in other states like Florida, they'd say you have to avoid probate at all costs. And most people would agree with that. But there are some States where, you know, they say probate isn't that bad and avoiding probate isn't that critical. So you're going to find in each state all these nuances as far as what are the potential tax liabilities during lifetime and at death, not just for the clients themselves, but also for their children. Because I think that's something that gets missed a lot. If you're leaving an inherited IRA to kids or you're leaving them a big inheritance, what's going to happen with that? And are you creating an income tax situation or an estate tax issue down the line to G2? So I think there's just so much to unpack when it comes to state income and estate tax planning that sometimes gets missed because people think of about estate planning in a really generic way, thinking avoid probate. And my estate's not necessarily big enough to worry about federal estate taxes. Therefore, I can keep it really simple. It's not necessarily the case. Depending on where they live.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. Maybe we go kind of like across some topics and, and see how it differs state to state. And the first one you brought up is like, probate. What are some states that you've heard Probate is not an issue. And what are some states that you've heard like? Probate's just terrible. You got to avoid it.

[A]

Certainly the two that spring to mind that anecdotally, I have been told, are not an issue. And certainly we've looked at [e-mail] because we try to be state specific as far as optimizing the documents, and that's Washington and Texas are two states where a lot of attorneys and a lot of clients have reported that really probate's not the top of the list when it comes to priorities, in that, you know, some people are fine with a will. It doesn't mean that you never use a trust in those states, but that, you know, probate just isn't. Isn't all that time consuming, it's not all that expensive, and it's not the type of headache that it is in some other states, like in my home state of Massachusetts, where there are just so many issues that come up when it comes to probate. You know, it's the time that it takes, the difficulty with the court system and, and just how unorganized it is and what a painful process it is. You know, I used to practice in Massachusetts and, you know, going in sometimes, and I'm sure there are great workers in different counties, but sometimes you go in there and you just witness an insensitivity to people who are dealing with really difficult times, that they could have avoided all that if they had just avoided probate, and they would have kept it, you know, in their lawyer's house, in their lawyer's office, you know, not having to go to court and deal with some of these issues. They could just do it through the paperwork. So, you know, Massachusetts, Florida, I've heard. I don't believe Florida is, like, not great. Yeah, I've heard Florida. Florida is not a. A fun state. And the other thing about this is too, like, even states that are considered to be not as bad for probate, you have to remember that Covid was just a few years ago and. And that shut down everything. That shut down every. Every court. And even now that's reverberated where I don't know that they've all fully recovered as far as the timelines and catching up on all the paperwork and everything. So that's another thing just to consider is that avoiding probate, if you're in a state that doesn't. It's not that burdensome. You have to remember that things like Covid can happen where the government shuts down, and now you're just as stuck as anyone in those states where probate's horrible.

[B]

Yeah, agreed. And some I actually have heard Washington, too. I only have a few clients there, and my. My client's average is 40, so I don't really see probate happen very much. So I have to learn from others on it. But some of the bad ones, I've also heard New York, Georgia, Tennessee, and weirdly enough, like, when you search about it, people say Alaska's bad, too, which sounds weird. You feel like they'd be able to handle the amount of people that are there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay, so probate. Let's go to. Next. We're going Homestead.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I think, you know, Homestead is something that. What it basically is is it protects the value of your home from unsecured creditors, so not from your mortgage. Right. You can't. You can't claim that your mortgage isn't allowed to mortgage companies, not allowed to foreclose on you if you owe them. But when it comes to creditor claims, if you live in a state with a Homestead protection, if you were to be sued, it protects your value up to a certain point. Right. And that dollar value is going to vary based on state. And you can all remember O.J. simpson, the reason why he lived in Florida, or one of the reasons he had a residence in Florida was because it Couldn't be taken to be foreclosed on because it was protected up to unlimited value.

[B]

So like some people get advice, like I talked to a business owner who said that he was in Texas, that he was always told, he's a lawyer and he was told by other lawyers you should always buy as many houses and as much house as you can in Texas because at least that's protective. Anything bad ever happens to you. And I was like, I give the sentiment. Maybe there's a bigger reason. If you are somebody who's likely to be sued or you know, something like that, maybe it's better to pay down your mortgage than somebody else. But I don't know if that means you should buy as much in as many houses as you can.

[A]

Yeah, no, I think, you know, that's, that's when the tail wag the dog a lot of the time like you don't, like you don't know that something's going to happen and nothing should ever happen.

[B]

And once you know you can't buy.

[A]

Right, you can't do it. Right. And you know, these homestead laws, they vary so much and then where it intersects with estate planning to is, you know, sometimes it changes how you do your documents of what forms need to be filed. Like in Florida, my understanding is that typically people have a special provision in their trust for Florida homestead law. Whereas in other states it might be as simple as it's automatic. If you own the home, it's automatic. Or in other states it could be that you need to file a specific form like you need to in Massachusetts. So, so it's really important just to understand that let's say you're setting up a revocable trust, you ho hum, you deed the property into the revocable trust. You need to know that these nuances are out there, that is this impacting the protections you have on your property, not only for Homestead, for creditors, but also there's homestead protections when it comes to real estate taxes. And a lot of times, you know, revocable trust isn't a big deal and it's not going to affect those things. But sometimes there's some additional paperwork that needs to be filed or additional steps that need to be taken to preserve that exemption. So that's why it's really critical to make sure that the client knows that in their specific state they should be thinking about these issues before just running forward and doing the plan without thinking about it.

[B]

Yeah. And so like I look this up. So the states that offer unlimited homestead exemptions are Florida, Texas, Iowa, Kansas, Oklahoma and South Dakota. And then states that have large exemptions but are capped. California is 300,000 to 600,000. Nevada is up to 605. I don't know if these are a year old or something where it's pulling from, but Arizona, 400. Minnesota up to 450 or more. If agriculture. Massachusetts, 500,000.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So super interesting. And then states with none, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Maryland have none. In Virginia has a very limited exemption.

[A]

Yeah. And I can remember this when I practiced bankruptcy, because when people filed for bankruptcy, the homestead protection was a lifesaver. In Massachusetts, certainly. But in other states like New Hampshire, where you might have built up $750,000 in equity in your home and it's really your main asset, but you have a really limited homestead protection, potentially that could put the house at risk. So it's really important that people know those laws, especially when they're thinking about what type of liability insurance they should have.

[B]

Yeah. And I guess as like a financial planner, when you're thinking about helping your clients on umbrella insurance. Right. That makes a big difference. Right. Like in a state that doesn't have homestead exemption, you are thinking about home equity plus taxable assets, plus cash, etc. IRAs, whatever. 401ks are protected. But then in other states now you have 401k plus home equity is protected. So maybe you have a slightly less large need on umbrella.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Super important.

[B]

Okay, what's the next one you want to go to? Medicare?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I think, I think it's an important topic because, you know, with an aging population, certainly when you do estate planning, what's top of mind is what if I go to the nursing home? Right, Medicaid. Yeah, Medicaid is going to come in. Yeah, yeah, Medicaid, you know, for nursing home protection versus Medicare, which is the health insurance aspect of things. Medicare is federal, Medicaid is state. And every state interprets the Medicaid law differently because basically the way they wrote the Medicaid statutes was we're going to give you these guidelines and then it's up to the states to fill in the rest. And they filled in with all different rules in all different states. So it's going to depend on if you're looking to do estate planning and you want to protect from the nursing home, you know, having to dissipate all your assets to pay for the nursing home. You'd rather see if there are any federal benefits available. You're gonna have to really work with someone who knows estate laws intimately. Because there are certainly trusts, there are irrevocable trusts you can put property into, but you have to know whether are you entitled to income from that trust? Can you be the trustee? And all those kinds of issues where these state law nuances can come in. And I often talk about estate planning. It's like packing your parachute, Right. Because if you set up one of these Medicaid trusts in a state and you put in some provisions that are not permitted or that the state is going to dispute, and ultimately, when you would have been skipping along thinking that everything was protected until the time came when it was too late, where you could no longer protect it, and you find out that there was some flaws in the trust. And these are all really, really nitty gritty state law nuances to look into to try to make sure that the property is protected and you're not sitting there with some kind of trust that you think is protecting you for nursing home, but it actually really almost does nothing.

[B]

Yeah. And I am not the expert here. This is not my target market, but I know in certain states, like, you have to have less than 5,000 in assets or something to be able to qualify. But then it's also, like, for, like, the three or five years leading up to the time you go into it, too. So, like, I know this gets pretty involved for people of, like, how do we plan? How do we help our parents so that they can have it? And I also know there's a lot of people who just really try to skirt the system, and they're like, hey, I got a bunch of money. I'm gonna get all this money outside of my name. Which it's kind of a little interesting to work really hard, accumulate a lot of wealth, and be like, I want to get the worst care facility compared to a private care facility just to help on an inheritance a little bit with my children or whoever's gonna get it.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, some people get, like, really, like. They get, like, tunnel vision as far as priorities are concerned. And, you know, you put your house into this irrevocable trust, you put, you know, a lot of your assets that, you know, you'd like to live comfortably and retire on, and you don't have access to them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you're protecting against this theoretical, you know, fear that you have about the nursing home. So it's definitely not for everyone. It's definitely a topic that you're going to see a lot of webinars and, you know, local. The local. What am I trying to say here?

[B]

You know, Seminars.

[A]

Yeah, local seminars that, that are going to really push that as the thing you should be most concerned about. And certainly it is a big priority for a lot of people, but sometimes you can really over plan and end up really limiting yourself for something that may or may not happen and also may or may not be effective. Because these state agencies really are cracking down on this type of planning. And it can. If you get. Sometimes, you know, it's not just about, is it going to ultimately be a plan that works, it's how much pain you're going to have to go through to get there. Because is the state going to fight it? Are you going to be in court and litigation, or would you rather have something a little bit more. More simple to be able to just know that the assets are going to get passed down efficiently and if you have to pay for some nursing home costs, so be it. So it's gonna, it's gonna really depend on the client.

[B]

And as a kid, hopefully you're like a little bit better of a kid than the person to be like, yes, mom and dad, hide all of your assets so I can get your money and you have as bad of the last two to five years of your life as you can in pursuit of that. You know, like, that's just probably not the right way to handle things at all.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And it depends, you know, sometimes there are clients where, you know, the.

[B]

It's the only option. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They couldn't afford it. They would run out of assets. And this is a way to be like, hey, I don't want to run out in a year or two. And then we are stuck. Like, at least this gets me into the right spot right away.

[A]

Or it's just, it's their number one priority to make sure they preserve assets for the kids. And the kids aren't necessarily driving the planning decisions because I think you should always be a little bit concerned if the kids are driving the playing decisions towards their parents. Giving up control to protect it for their own benefit. That's a bit of a conflict of interest that you see from time to time. So it's definitely something to protect, to try to, to watch out for.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. What other state things we need to worry about? Should we start with inheritance? Inheritance or just estate tax exemption?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, certainly estate tax exemption is the big one. Inheritance taxes. Not in many states do they have them. You know, Pennsylvania, I know, is one depending on the class of beneficiary. So if it's like a cousin is going to pay more than if it's like a child. So those are really interesting. But I think estate taxes are something that's a little bit more you'll frequently find throughout the United States. There's quite a few states that have them at varying levels of exemption. And what happens is most states, if not all states are not what's called portable. So in the federal system, one spouse passes away, their surviving spouse can completely use whatever remaining estate tax exemption the person died with. So right now it's 13.99 million, let's say I die with $10 million passing through my estate, my spouse can use the remaining $3.99 million when they pass away. And so that's really offers a lot of flexibility. It offers a lot of chances for a step up in basis. And it means that all things being equal, you may not need to do a lot of estate tax planning if you have a lower size estate. But if you're in one of these states with a state estate tax, those state of state tax exemptions are usually not portable. In Massachusetts, in Oregon, I believe in Illinois, a lot of these states have lower estate tax exemptions. It's use it or lose it. So if you pass away and you don't get those assets into a credit shelter trust to preserve the first spouse who passed away's estate tax exemption, then it's lost to the surviving spouse. So, so just like a simple example, let's say in Massachusetts there's a couple that has $4 million total. First spouse passes away, leaves everything to the second spouse. So pass away, let's say they own everything. 5,050 first spouse passes away, has $2 million, leaves everything to the second spouse, nothing goes into a credit shelter trust. Now the second spouse has a $4 million estate that's $2 million above the estate tax exemption. There's potentially going to be a tax. Whereas if the first spouse had passed away and they put that $2 million into a credit shelter trust to preserve the exemption. Now there's 2 million in the Credit Shelter Trust, there's 2 million in the surviving spouses estate. Theoretically there's no tax. Obviously there's growth on, on it that you know, making it simplistic, but you really can lose a lot without doing planning at the state level.

[B]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's a really good example. And I have the list of like the, the states that this exists for, like Connecticut has an exemption of 13.6. Hawaii has one of 5.49, Illinois, four Maine, 6.8, Maryland, five Massachusetts two Minnesota, three New York, 694 Oregon, one Rhode Island, 1774, Vermont, five Washington, 2193, and then District of Columbia, 4715. But then what's interesting is obviously they're all different. They all kind of. Most of them are like this 8, 10, 12% range. A few of them are lower. But on top of that, there are a few states that have an inheritance tax exemption. So like Kentucky has a million, and then there is a 0 to 16% inheritance tax. Nebraska has 100,000, New Jersey has 25,000. And then it seems like there's a little one in Iowa, there's a little one in Maryland. So there's actually more than you would think. And I don't think people think about inheritance taxes very often.

[A]

No. Yeah. I think they're a little bit more difficult to plan for too. And I think that's where, you know, state law nuances in state professionals who are really adept at those laws can really be helpful because sometimes there are crafty ways to leave property, whether it be through an irrevocable trust or other ways. And a lot of times the other thing is that leaving the property to certain classes of people is important. So if you leave it to children, a lot of times in a lot of states, that's going to be exempt from inheritance taxes. Whereas you leave it to a friend, you leave it to a neighbor, there's going to be more tax associated with that. So it can be really important. The other, the other area where this comes up sometimes, and I've seen it in some states, is sometimes the state steps in when someone passes away and they find out that the person passed away and they require the actual, the custodian who is holding the assets to. To affirm that, you know, all inheritance taxes have been paid before. The funds can get distributed like by beneficiary designation. So, you know, sometimes you can be in for a surprise if you're in a state that has an inheritance tax because you thought that everything was just going to. Everybody was just going to receive everything. It was going to be smooth. Then you come and find out there's this tax bill.

[B]

Interesting. Okay. Any other topics as relates to states we haven't hit on?

[A]

I don't think so. I mean, I think that, you know, it's just, it's such an important topic to raise, not just for the client, like I said, also for the children. Because, you know, a lot of times what drives tax liability is the residence of the client, the person who died. Right. The state that they're in. But it is important to think about the kids because say I have a child, let's say I live in Massachusetts and I only have a 2, 2 million dollar estate. I have one child, I pass away and I leave everything to them. But they already have a $10 million estate and I leave everything to them outright. Now I'm just lumping that money on top of their existing estate. And you know, they're going to have more estate taxes to potentially pay for and more that the plan for. And so sometimes there's ways that clients who are, who are the parents where the G1 can actually protect their children from estate taxes by leaving it to them in trust so it doesn't pass through their estate. And then the other thing we've talked about before, I think is beneficiary designations on IRAs. Sometimes looking at, okay, what kind of income tax bracket is the child I'm leaving it to. But also what state do they live in?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, if they live in California and I have another child that lives in Florida, maybe it's going to make a little bit more sense to allocate those beneficiary designations a little bit differently.

[B]

Yeah, maybe Florida. 22, no state. Then you have a high income kid in California in the 50.3% marginal bracket. Right. Like if you want to think about how do you optimize and have the most wealth that doesn't go to taxes. Right. You, you will pick where those go.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Really good points. Okay, well, awesome. I thought, I thought today's episode was really interesting. Dave, love doing this with you and everybody. We appreciate you listening again. Please rate and subscribe.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Send any questions you have our way and we'll see you back here in a couple weeks.