Loading summary
Transcript399 lines
- [00:03]
Don Marshall
If you need three new reasons to love Jack wraps at Jack in the Box, even more. Here they are. Chicken fajita, chicken Caesar, and delicious. Starting at $3. Coincidentally, those are the same three reasons you should come to Jack in the Box right now at Jack, every bite's a big deal.
- [00:33]
Alan Sisto
Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 346 of the Prancing Pony Podcast, where we're fairly certain that all the hosts of the PPP would take their royal names in Quenya, not ad in Ayak.
- [00:44]
Don Marshall
Hmm. Sean Tarminyataur.
- [00:47]
Alan Sisto
Hmm. I like it.
- [00:49]
Don Marshall
Okay, works for me. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I am Don Tar Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings Facts guy. And I am here with the man of the west who definitely wouldn't name himself the Lord of the West, Alan Sisto.
- [01:02]
Alan Sisto
Heavens, no. Ill omened, indeed. Now, folks, join us as we fly through about 3,400 years of Numenorean history in our return to the appendices for the second half of the excitingly named Appendix A1. Little I numenor Alan.
- [01:17]
Don Marshall
It's a great sales pitch, but it does need some work.
- [01:19]
Adam Pearce
It does.
- [01:19]
Don Marshall
We got it. Even Rings of Power has, like a something a little bit better. But you know what? I digress because it's certainly no ride of the row here, but I guess it'll do it.
- [01:30]
Alan Sisto
Well, it's descriptive. It is what it says on the tin. Really? Yeah.
- [01:33]
Don Marshall
Yes. The little eye gives us so much context as to what's going to be happening.
- [01:38]
Alan Sisto
There's something else after this, apparently.
- [01:39]
Don Marshall
Yeah, you know, there's a lot after this, all the way up to the seventh age, folks, no matter how you got here, you are all welcome here in the common room. Here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and.
- [01:53]
Alan Sisto
Bad jokes along the way, sometimes more than others. We do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but we do.
- [02:00]
Don Marshall
Try to keep it light and fun, just like a couple of friends chatting at a pub. We are very glad you've joined us.
- [02:06]
Alan Sisto
Indeed, and I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to welcome a couple of guests to the common room.
- [02:13]
Don Marshall
You're about to hear a chat that Alan and another One of his PPP hosts, Dr. Sarah Brown, had with Adam Pierce, who recently translated the Hobbit into Welsh.
- [02:23]
Alan Sisto
Now, for those of you who heard or saw this interview on the TTT back in early August. This is the director's cut version, significantly longer with some extra questions, and we hope you enjoy the extra discussion on this incredible work. Good morning, little masters, and welcome to today's Tolkien Times. I'm the man of the west, also from the Prancing Pony podcast, and thank you for joining me for Folks Favorite Fandom Fridays. Now, on these Fridays, I get the chance to visit with somebody from the wider world of the Tolkien fandom. Writers, musicians, artists, craftsmen, scholars, content creators and more. Now, before I get to today's guest, though, I also want to welcome Dr. Sarah Brown back to the TTT. She's co hosted a dozen episodes of the PPP me, some of my favorites, as a matter of fact.
- [03:07]
Dr. Sarah Brown
Oh, you have to say that, though.
- [03:09]
Alan Sisto
Well, but they are really. I mean, the Steward of the King. That was just a highlight of last season for sure. And folks, Sara is one of my co hosts on the Rings of Power wrap up, which is going to be starting up its season two right along with the Amazon show next month. And I say next month, but I think this actually comes out in August, so later this month. Now, why do I have a co host for Fandom Friday, something I haven't done this entire time? Well, besides the fact that Sara is a joy to work with, she's also always Welsh. Always. And always humble, too. And that might give you a clue as to our guest today. Now, speaking of our guests, I'm pleased to introduce you to the editor of Mellon Baptist, a Welsh publishing house who will soon be releasing or Hobbit, a Welsh translation of the Hobbit. Folks, please join me in welcoming Adam Pearce to today's Tolkien Times.
- [03:59]
Adam Pearce
Thank you very much. If by soon you meant like two weeks ago, then, yeah, very, very soon.
- [04:05]
Alan Sisto
Well, we are really glad to have you.
- [04:07]
Dr. Sarah Brown
Yeah, welcome, Adam, and thanks so much for giving up your time for us today. And look, I'm. This is it, folks. This is what we're getting from. From.
- [04:16]
Alan Sisto
That's right.
- [04:17]
Dr. Sarah Brown
Yeah, absolutely fantastic.
- [04:19]
Alan Sisto
Put it on your shelves, folks.
- [04:20]
Dr. Sarah Brown
Definitely. Now, I suppose the answer to my first question might be because it was about time, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What was it that motivated you to tackle a Welsh translation of the Hobbit? And given that the Hobbit has already been translated into more than 60 languages, why has it taken so long to get it into Welsh?
- [04:39]
Adam Pearce
Really, really interesting question. Really. With the second one, particularly the first one's kind of boring. The first part of the Answer. You know, like everyone else in the whole world, I am a massive talking fan. I must have read Hobbit first time when I was probably about 7 or 8 and I read the Lord of the Rings at 10, which I think is probably a little bit unusual. Massive Tolkien fan and obviously also Welsh. You know, grow up, grew up as a Welsh speaker with my speaking Welsh at home, you know, speaking Welsh in school. So kind of surrounded by Welsh really. So, you know, it's kind of a logical thing for me to do. As soon as I kind of really registered that it hadn't been done, I thought, oh, someone should really do that. And then I started writing a novel and realized it was awful and then realized I'd been putting aside time to do this thing and I should really just do something that I would actually finish. And it was also during the pandemic, which meant that I had quite a bit of time sort of kicking around at home. So yeah, I just decided it was time to pull the finger out really. The other thing I was doing is I toyed with the idea a little bit and then I started reading the Lord of the Rings in German as a sort of learning exercise and I sort of suddenly realized, hang on a minute, this is the thing I have to do. You know, this has got to happen. Four years ago now I started. Why is it taking so long for this to happen? Really interesting. Really Well, I think it's interesting to answer that question. You've got to kind of delve a little bit into the state of Welsh language culture and things like that. But basically we're really self sufficient, we don't publish Welsh language. Publishing is actually really healthy for a small language with a, you know, we publish more, more books in Welsh than lots of languages that are much, much bigger, much more widely spoken. So the focus is always on original stuff. Everything is sort of new, new novels, new stuff, original stuff in Welsh. Translations for adults are vanishingly rare, sort of. It's extremely unusual to have any kind of book translated for adults in Welsh. And I guess it's because we can speak English. So, you know, most of us, pretty much all of us, so, and via English then we, we have that kind of access to all of, all of world literature virtually, you know, via English. So I guess people think that there isn't a demand for it or at least that there isn't a need to translate stuff into world. I mean, I completely disagree and it's kind of been borne out by the success of the book really. But I think that's why that's. Why it hasn't happened before, was just because, like, it's just rare for translation to happen anyway.
- [07:22]
Dr. Sarah Brown
No, I, for one, was delighted to see it. Absolutely fantastic.
- [07:26]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, well, you know, you sort of hit on this in your answer to that question. You talked about Welsh not being a language that's widely spoken. Doing a little bit of research, I saw that it appears that there's maybe about a million Welsh speakers. So it's not a hugely spoken language, but it was a very important language to Tolkien himself. Not only did he find in it an abiding linguistic aesthetic satisfaction. That's from letter 163. But as many of us know, one of Tolkien's invented languages, Sindarin, is largely influenced by Welsh. Now, with the large presence of Sindarin in the Lord of the Rings, are you considering tackling a Welsh translation of that much larger work? And if so, give us an idea of what that might look like if you were to do so?
- [08:10]
Adam Pearce
Well, you know, I mean, it's six times as big as the Hobbit, and the Hobbit took me four years. So, you know, have you got. Have you got 24 years?
- [08:20]
Alan Sisto
Sure, sure. I don't mind.
- [08:23]
Adam Pearce
I mean, by then it'll be in the public domain. So, you know. Yeah, you know, it would be fantastic to have it Welsh, wouldn't it? You know, what would it look like? You know, it would be a very big book in Welsh about, you know, some rings of power, I suppose. You know, the Elvish link. You know, people. People, often people. It's probably not just me, but people. You know, if you're Welsh speaking, you often get asked kind of, oh, can you read Elvis? Then it's like, no, no, of course we can't.
- [08:54]
Alan Sisto
Inspired by. Is not the same as. Right, right.
- [08:57]
Adam Pearce
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, the spelling sometimes looks kind of similar, but. But, you know, you, You. And you can recognize, like, a little word every now and again, maybe if you're looking really closely, but it's no more than like, you know, sort of. Can an English person read Icelandic? You know, just because they're both Germanic languages. Not. Not really. You know, it's, you know, and there's lots.
- [09:17]
Alan Sisto
You might catch a word or two here or there, like you said, and that's about as good as you can get.
- [09:20]
Adam Pearce
And there's a lot of Finnish in Elvish as well as I understand. So, you know, which is. Which is completely nothing like Welsh at all. So, you know, it's not. It's not that much of a Help.
- [09:33]
Alan Sisto
I guess I'm thinking with the Hobbit you don't have to do a lot of representation of other languages in the text. Whereas in the Lord of the Rings there's going to be Sindarin in the text, there'll be Quenya in the text, there'll be Rohirric in the text. And one of the fun things in the Lord of the Rings that's interesting to observe as you study it as a text is how Tolkien represents all these different languages. And I guess I was trying to figure out how would you tackle that in Welsh?
- [10:03]
Adam Pearce
Well, there is a bit of that in the Hobbit, maybe more than you might think. So, for example, the divorce generally, you know, obviously, you know, they're so, so what, what we, what, what I did in the, in the translation is the, you know, as per Tolkien's instructions really, you know, the Dwarves names are totally unchanged because they're meant to be in sort of Dwarvish, you know, so that they're not meant to look familiar. You know, I didn't, I didn't change the, the orthography of the, the, the dwarfs names into, into sort of Welsh, you know, because, because that would have, you know, that they're meant. You're meant to look at them and think, oh, this is a str. Familiar name. So you're not meant to, you know, so encountering a K, for example, you don't, you know, the letter K doesn't occur in Welsh. We, we wouldn't use the letter K. But obviously you've got Killy, one of the Dwarves. So, you know, and his name is unchanged in the book because Tolkien says, don't. Don't mess with the names. Right? So, so, so I didn't mess with the name. But then, you know, as people on the social media have been telling me, oh, you know, you change the spelling of Gandalf, you change the spelling of Smaug, you know, you, you did all this stuff. Yeah, because again, because, you know, I'm following the guidelines, you know, so where the names are understood to be in the language, in the common tongue, you know, the language of the Hobbits, which is, which is represented in the books by English and therefore in my book by Welsh, you know, therefore those names I have sort of Welshified, if you like. So, you know, so Bilbo is, I mean, Bilbo works fine in Welsh or it's not changed. But, but his, his surname is Bilbo Baglan.
- [11:42]
Alan Sisto
Okay.
- [11:43]
Adam Pearce
Because Baggins, you can't sound more English than Baggins. And there's no way that surname was gonna, was gonna survive the, the translation. But Baglan is actually a village. It's a town a short distance away from where I live. So by pure coincidence, but, but maybe I was thinking of it when I, when I, when I came up with that. But yeah, maybe I like that actually.
- [12:06]
Dr. Sarah Brown
Just to follow on from that. One of the things about modern 21st century Welsh is that it's full of anglicized neologisms, right? It's taken on English words and Welshified them. As you were talking about there, did you come across any kind of issues with that, with translating the Hobbit?
- [12:25]
Adam Pearce
Yeah, probably. Probably not really. I mean, I didn't try and I didn't try and you know, you know, it's a translation into modern Welsh as, you know, as is, as the language is today. You know, there's no, there's no attempt to create some kind of pure fantasy sort of uninflected from English influences or anything like that. You know, there's no, you know, it's, it's, it's Welsh was spoken. You know, there were, there were plenty of words in there that have their origins in, in English. You know, it's, it doesn't matter, you know that, that's not an issue. It's just Welsh. It's just Welsh as it is spoken, really. You know, I've, I've, I've tried to, you know, the translation uses what you might call standard Welsh. You know, it's not, it's not a particular, a dialect, it's not formal, but it's just kind of literary, you know, ordinary literary words really, which is, which is really reflects quite well the way Tolkien wrote the Hobbit. You know, it's in Queen's English if you like, it's in standard English. It's not in with, with some very notable exceptions, it's not in kind of any particular dialect of English. So therefore, you know, it would be strange to, to do anything, anything with the, anything else with the text frankly, than, than what I did, which is put it in kind of standard Welsh. The obvious exception of course, is the trolls, the seam of the trolls. They talk in kind of cockney accents in the English, which, you know, my interpretation is always that Tolkien is kind of looking down on the kind of urban sort of working class accents, which was kind of a little, felt a little bit mean, but I did it anyway in the Welsh vision because, you know, you couldn't have them talking the 12th talking in kind of sort of standard List really well, so it would have been strange. So they TALK IN COVEY DIALECT OF Carnarvon in northwest Wales, where I spent a brief time living when I was younger. And I hope people take that as kind of the affection. Affectionate sort of representation was intended, not as some kind of insult. Not that I. I don't think that they are troubles. I think they're the best people in the world.
- [14:18]
Alan Sisto
I'm sure they'll be pleased to hear that.
- [14:21]
Dr. Sarah Brown
One of the things you mentioned a couple of minutes ago was about how at some point the Lord of the Rings will get into, like, public ownership, that it will no longer be as controlled as it has been by the Tolkien estate. But of course, you're working, or you have been working with a text that is very much still held by the Tolkien estate, and to publish an official translation, you've had to work closely with them to get permissions. Right. Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like to work with the estate? I mean, were they really happy to see the Hobbit translated into a language so important to Tolkien? And did they have any very specific requirements that you had to meet?
- [14:57]
Adam Pearce
Not really, to be fair. You know, I don't really know how to compare them to kind of other sort of other literary agents or literary estates, you know. You know, it was mainly sort of communicated with them through their agent, really. You know, they had stipulations about things like the font and the arrangement of the text and things like that, but when it came to the actual translation, they didn't.
- [15:17]
Alan Sisto
They didn't.
- [15:17]
Adam Pearce
You know, that was. It was kind of. I was largely, basically trusted to handle that however I saw fit, which was nice. You know, it's nice to feel, you know, to be sort of recognized as the. As the person who is making those creative decisions. So, yeah, it was.
- [15:31]
Alan Sisto
It was.
- [15:31]
Adam Pearce
It was good. Yeah. Yeah.
- [15:32]
Dr. Sarah Brown
You know, they didn't have somebody on standby to, I don't know, check your Welsh or anything like that.
- [15:38]
Adam Pearce
If they did, then they never told me. And. And if they did, they. They never raised any issues with anything. So if they did, then, yeah, that's all I could say on that. But, yeah, that's very cool.
- [15:51]
Alan Sisto
So one of the tricky things about translations, you already touched on this a little bit, is getting those dialects right. Now, you mentioned the trolls specifically, but Bilbo speaks differently from the Dwarves. He has a very different phrasing, and certainly they both speak differently from Gandalf. And then there's the goblins, who really barely speak at all. And even Beorn has a very different way of presenting. How did you handle those? They're not really dialects like the Trolls, where it's an obvious, you know, like you talked about the Cockney accent and how you replace that with a northwest Welsh pronunciation or dialect. How did you deal with these other characters and the way they speak? Or were they so similar that you just put them into the, the standard Welsh as you talked about earlier?
- [16:33]
Adam Pearce
Yeah, it's interesting question, I guess, I guess I probably didn't think about it all that much. But they definitely talk in a different way in the translation, you know, just as they do in the original. You know, you know, if I'm translating a book, then I will try and, you know, reflect if there's a difference in the way that the two characters talk. I'll try and reflect that in some way. You know, there's definitely, as you say, there's different kind of registers that the kind of Gandalf uses. I mean, my background is actually Victorian literature in Welsh, which is actually a really, really good, good, useful background to have for this kind of project because the, you know, you've got like kind of chapel Welsh, you've got sort of the way. Very effective way that some people wrote in Welsh in the 19th century and you can kind of then compare that with more modern ways of talking. So yeah, you know, there is, there's a range of things within without, without going into kind of regional dialects that you can reflect. Reflect the different ways that talk. Yeah, it's. It's definitely there. I think it helps to have that kind of maybe, maybe a bit of a kind of, you know, probably a broader knowledge of sort of Welsher than the average person. You know, it definitely helps, you know, if you're going to then take on the project like that because just, just you knowing the kind of styles that people can. That you can use, you know, it's is useful.
- [17:49]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [17:50]
Dr. Sarah Brown
So one of the, one of the things I found really interesting about your translation, because I think this is unique among translations that we've looked at, is that you've replaced the Anglo Saxon runes on the map with Welsh runes the 18th century. Colberneberg, tell us about that decision and why it helps make the book more Welsh.
- [18:09]
Adam Pearce
Well, I've actually got to credit the suggestion to somebody else. I was having a conversation with Michael Everson, who is maybe familiar to some listeners as the publisher of various versions of the, of the Hobbit, particularly in various other languages, and which he casually mentioned kind of the. The opportunity to kind of use different sort of alternatives in translations to, To. To the rooms. And when he sort of did that kind of something tweaked in my mind and I thought, hang on a minute, I don't want to use Anglo Saxon Romans in a book about Welsh. That would be like. That would be the biggest sort of most inappropriate the use of. So it wasn't, it wasn't his suggestion that I use Colborne above. The idea of using kind of, you know, you know, the Anglo Saxons in particular were at war with the Welsh for a very, very long time. You know, they still are. You know, the, the relationship between England and Wales is. Is, you know, of course fraught with all sorts of, you know, social and political sort of baggage. So, you know, you know, Anglo Saxon wounds is kind of. It was. Would never have sat right in Welsh anyway. The amount of work it took to, To. To actually put it into K was probably actually less work than recreating the Anglo Saxon runes would have been because. Because I would have had to kind of re. You know, rearrange, you know, translate the actual content of the writing into Welsh anyway. So actually when you're doing that, it's, it's. It's actually fairly simple to just change the shape of the runes. Cobran looks actually nothing like sort of Anglo Saxon runes. It looks very rune like. It's very sort of angular, very, very much. It looks like the kind of thing that a dwarf would hack, would carve into a rock, you know, so it looks kind of really appropriate, I think. But it is the individual letters, I don't think any of them are actually the same, same as an equivalent letter in, you know, in Anglo Saxon rooms at all. So they are totally different. It's an interesting. And a bit of a weird sort of sort of historical oddity that the Alphabet, it's basically a forgery. It's not authentic. It's not a real runic Alphabet at all in the sense that it was never written by kind of ancient Welsh bards as people claimed it was. It's believed. I mean, you know, the evidence is a bit kind of dubious about exactly where it came from, but it's believed have been the. The brainchild of the notorious forger Yolom of Ganog, who invented a lot of what are now sort of annual traditions as part of the rush Istadvod, particularly the National Estadvod. A lot of things which he kind of claimed were based on sort of ancient Druidic ceremonies, but probably he mostly just made up coil bread is exactly like that. You know, it was actually really fashionable for a period in the sort of 19th century. People would kind of carve their own gravestones with it, thinking that they were resurrecting this ancient, ancient written language. But there's no, there's no evidence of its kind of appearing before he sort of suddenly, very suspiciously discovers it. You know, it's so, so, you know, it's almost certainly his invention, a pure, pure invention of yarn or gallop. So, you know, in that sense it's, you know, it's a fantasy Alphabet, which makes it entirely appropriate, I would argue, for a fantasy novel. And like I said, you know, the, you know, I mean, if you look at the, you know, if anyone just takes a look at the runes, they still look like runes. They still look very much like something a dwarf would carve. They don't look kind of out of place really. And Anglo Saxon runes have kind of always been a really weird thing to have in the Hobbit anyway, because they're a real world script. They're not like, you know, if Tolkien had invented a script and used that in the Hobbit, then I wouldn't have touched it. I would have, wouldn't have chased it, you know, because it would have been sort of a sort of authentic, you know, Tolkien ism that I would have felt the need to preserve. So, but, but it didn't. It's just, it's, it's got nothing to do with Middle Earth and it's no more, it's no more kind of appropriate really to use that than, than any other, any other writing system really, except that they say that they're runes, so you, you assume, therefore, that they're carving them on things, right? Cardran ticks all of those boxes whilst being something that's Welsh and being something that's interesting and being something that's, that's, you know, got me at least five minutes on a podcast. So, you know, it's, you know, it's, we wanted to. I was aware, when I was aware that there were going to be people who would be interested in this book, who wouldn't be able to read the book. So I wanted to put something in for them as well that would be kind of interesting for the people who collect, and I know that they exist, the people who collect every different version of Retalking book that exists, that they have something that they can say, well, this is, this is a unique thing about this one that makes different, rather than it simply being a translation. And.
- [23:02]
Alan Sisto
I like that. And I think you hit on it earlier that it. There's something very appropriate about it being an invented set of runes, you know, a fantasy Alphabet, as you put it. And I'm thinking, you know, Tolkien invented languages constantly. And I mean, you know, they're fully developed and they. But they were frauds in a way. I mean, there aren't ancient elves who spoke Sindarin or Quen yet, just like there weren't, you know, ancient peoples in Wales who carved those particular runes that this fraudster developed. But it's a really interesting and I think appropriate fit. And certainly given the history between Anglo Saxon language and the Welsh language, it. I think you're right. It made a lot of sense. I like it.
- [23:41]
Dr. Sarah Brown
So, talking about the words being appropriate, it occurred to me, and I meant to ask you this. Occasionally you come across a word that Tolkien seems to have made up, but he really hasn't. That actually has a huge connection to Welsh, like the Carrock, for example, which is so close to the Welsh word for rock. Did you come across any other words.
- [24:02]
Adam Pearce
That struck you like that when you say that? Yeah, you know, it's almost a Welsh word. Yeah, it's almost a Welsh word. And I called it a catalog, which is. Is not the word for rock, because I can't just call it a rock. But I had to have to make it something that there was. There was nearly that, you know, without changing it too much. So, you know. Yeah, I can't think of anything else. You know, I can't think of anything else, obviously. But, you know, there's definitely things like that in there, isn't there? And you've got to be kind of. You've got to be kind of careful when you. When you. When you get to them and make sure that you're reflecting something of the sort of slightly different sort of fantasy element of it, rather than making it really kind of bland and ordinary. I remember somebody asked me once, he said, if you speak once, do you find it really easy to come up with D and D names for your characters? And I said, well, firstly, I've never, never, never played into you. But, but if I did, like, you know, I wouldn't call my D characters Welsh names any more than you'd call them Steve and, you know, John. To me, they're just ordinary names. You know, I. I went to school with five people called Angarat. You know, there's, there's nowhere, you know, there's. There's, you know, those kind of names are totally ordinary to me. So, you know, if they're if they're meant to be different kind of in the translation, you can't just reuse them. You know, you can't just reuse.
- [25:21]
Dr. Sarah Brown
That would be like having Sophie Gerald the dwarf.
- [25:25]
Adam Pearce
Yeah, that would be exactly. So when you come across like a cow, you can't just call it a cat. Egg. Yeah. Because that is just a rock.
- [25:31]
Dr. Sarah Brown
Yeah.
- [25:32]
Adam Pearce
And then, you know, they asked the question, you know, someone asked the bilbo ask, well, why is it called a catalog? You know, so download. Well, it's called the Cattle because that's what he calls it. That's his name for. For such things, you know, so. And this is the one that's near. Near where he lives. So, you know, those, those kind of details, you know, you can't. You'll just trip yourself up if you try and you try and do anything other than, you know, make it a bit, you know, make it different.
- [25:55]
Alan Sisto
That word nerdery, which I think is really fascinating, leads me to something else very similar. In this case, the Welsh word for rock is very similar to the cataract. What about when words are very similar to an Anglo Saxon or an Old English word? I'm thinking of Arkenstone, which comes from. Which I think means like sacred stone or holy stone or something like that. What about a word like that? I mean, it's. What would you do with Arkansas?
- [26:24]
Adam Pearce
Yeah, that's a good. You were asking me and then now you brought it up. Yeah, that's got an interesting story to it as well. So I've called it an A vine. So the prefix arch is like arch as in kind of arch emperor, like.
- [26:40]
Alan Sisto
Arch enemy or high.
- [26:42]
Adam Pearce
Yeah. And just like that it kind of means like the great.
- [26:46]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [26:46]
Adam Pearce
Or the mighty. So like it's the mighty stone, which kind of totally fits.
- [26:50]
Alan Sisto
That fits. Yeah.
- [26:51]
Adam Pearce
Fits the context of what it is. So calling it simultaneously sounds extremely Welsh and also fits describes it quite well. And also it totally echoes the Arkenstone by total coincidence. You know, it's probably not total coincidence probably where there's probably some kind of etymological common roots to Arcanan in English and Archen. It was probably, you know, an arch in English. Definitely. You know, there's probably some common root there. So yes, you know, so that kind of thing is. But you know, there's. There's other things where you have to do. Like the. So the riddles, for example.
- [27:24]
Alan Sisto
Oh yeah.
- [27:25]
Adam Pearce
The chapter with the riddles is. Was the. Was the greatest joy and the greatest challenge of the translation, not least because there is no word in Welsh for riddle, which was kind of, you know, so you have to kind of, you know, with the curses you've got is kind of puzzle, you know, it doesn't. It doesn't quite convey the same thing. But no, you know, some of the riddles even work better in Welsh, I think. So. For example, one of the riddles is something like an eye in the sky looks at an eye on the ground. Now, in Welsh, the. If something is in full sunlight, you say it's in, which means in the eye of the sun. And if something is. And the Welsh word for daisy, which I think is actually where the daisy comes from, is from day's eye. But actually the Welsh word for daisy is, which means the day's eye. So when he talks about an eye in the sky and an eye in space, it's like. It's almost. It works better in Welsh and it's almost too obvious. It's actually. That's the easiest riddle ever, because you're just virtually giving it someone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, the rooms were. The riddles were kind of. Some of them were pretty tricky to get to kind of work. You know, in some cases, I thought, like, oh, something's got to go here. Either I change the riddle completely or at least change the. Kind of. The rhyme scheme or, you know, one of these. One of these has to go. So usually I would throw out the rhyme because that felt like the least important, you know, so I would rhyme it differently, you know, whatever. Whatever worked, really. So I've come up with, you know, I don't think any of them are really kind of traditional riddles that are kind of, you know, in the way that the talkings are. I don't think any of them were really kind of. You know, I didn't find any kind of translations of those exact riddles that had been used in the past, but they all kind of work, I think, you know, at least I hope that they all kind of work in a new. In their new sort of form and that people. I really hope people will really enjoy that chapter because I. Because I got a lot of joy out of writing it so well.
- [29:28]
Alan Sisto
It's the central chapter to the entire story, so I can only imagine it was the one that you poured so much time into. It's so key, especially if, you know, a Lord of the Rings in Welsh ever comes. You know, that connection is all back to chapter five. I mean, that's just. That is the tie. And it's. That's why it's such an important chapter.
- [29:49]
Adam Pearce
But yeah, the songs, the songs generally, you know, and sometimes, sometimes the most silly and, and sort of the lightest songs actually sometimes the hardest. I think the one that I rewrote the most times was actually one of the. The ones that the elves sing in in the Hobbit, as you'll know. You know that there are some kind of. Of really throw away kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's the one that I actually had to rewrite sort of the most times was, you know, the more serious ones are actually a lot easier to do because you kind of think, well, you know, just get the rhythm, get. Get the rhythm right, get the rhyme right and then, and then, and then get fit the meaning in when you can. That was the kind of approach that I took. Make it sound like the kind of thing that Thorin would say, don't you know, that covers the same sort of meaning ground in terms of meaning. And you know, that was my approach with the song, with some of them. They took a lot of rewrites and.
- [30:45]
Dr. Sarah Brown
Yeah, Alan, I think you've got some major material for some word nerdery.
- [30:50]
Alan Sisto
I know, I'm so excited now and I'm gonna have to get you back on Sarah because you can help me with the language when we talk through it. Now I want to know how goblins sing in Welsh about, you know, roasting body parts. You know, when they're all in the trees.
- [31:03]
Dr. Sarah Brown
Yeah, we could come up with something.
- [31:05]
Alan Sisto
And the popping eyeballs and all the gross stuff that they're singing about.
- [31:08]
Adam Pearce
But it's such a dark novel, isn't it? Yes, it was, you know, it was. It was a while since I'd read it when I, when I came back translating it, when I came across that again, I remember. I don't remember them singing about roasting fat and so on, you know, but it's there. So, you know, I was thinking I would read it to my, to my 5 year old, but maybe I'll wait a little bit or maybe skip that. That song.
- [31:32]
Alan Sisto
I started to read it to my son when he was five, I think, or maybe six. And I got to that thought. I think I'll just skip right past this. Then they sang a song about killing the dwarves and here we go with the eagles.
- [31:45]
Dr. Sarah Brown
Yeah. Tolkien didn't believe in protecting children from the dark side of life.
- [31:49]
Alan Sisto
No, he did not. Especially. You read on fairy stories, he makes that quite clear. Well, Adam, you know, we've kind of hinted at this before a little bit you. When we've talked about the success of the book so far. But what has the reception been like? And I don't just mean sales numbers, though of course we'd love to hear how successful it's been. But how has the translation itself been received among Welsh speakers who are of course very familiar with the text of the Hobbit in English?
- [32:11]
Adam Pearce
Yeah, a lot of them are. And you know, the, the, if you think that that would mean that they wouldn't be interested, then not at all. You know, people, people are actually really keen to. And that was one of the reasons why I translated it because, you know, there are different reasons why you would read a book in Welsh. Okay. You know, you might read it because you want to enjoy just, just for the sheer pleasure of reading the book, but you might read it because, you know, you want to, you want to learn some more Welsh or you want to improve the Welsh that you've got or whatever. There's loads of different reasons why you might want to read it. And just the fact that you can read it in English is like, it's actually almost irrelevant, I believe. You know, it really doesn't. And you know, that's not the reason that someone chooses to read a book in Welsh. It's just because they can't read it in any other language. That's like the least important reason why you would read a book in Welsh. The reception, I mean, we're getting some reviews. We haven't had them yet, but we will, you know, so, you know, it'll sink or swim on the back of those. There'll be one in, as I understand, there'll be one at least one of those in English in a major spot of online publication, another one in one of the Welsh language magazines. So that's going to be really good to get that kind of critical response in terms of kind of anecdotal people telling me stuff. It's been really, really positive. People have said, good people have said how pleased they were with it. You know, there was one person telling me, you know, the one person commented the, you know, said that he said everything about this perfect. It's as if Tolkien had written it in Welsh. Which I thought, wow, that's what I was going for. So at least there is at least one guy somewhere who thinks it's that good. So, you know, and you know, if I, you know, I, you know, this is not my full time job, you know, I'd love it if it were. But, you know, it's, it's something that I've done as a kind of Label of love. And, you know, if it brings that kind of joy to people, then, you know, I'm extremely proud of it, you know, and as well, it's getting people to read that wouldn't. You know, I've seen other people saying, oh, you know, this is the first book I've tried to read in Welsh, you know, which is really fantastic. That. Exactly what I wanted to do in terms of how well it's sold. It sold extremely well by the standards of a Welsh book. You know, if you. If you think that maybe 600,000 people sort of speak Welsh, well, you know, we're already in four figures. So, you know, that's. That's one for every 600, you know, at least one for every 600 people who could read it, theoretically. You know, that. And that's pretty good. If that was an English book, it would be, you know, 200 million or something like that, you know, the equivalent. The equivalent sort of market. Market share, you know, so that would be good. I don't know if that's the. That's the. The metric by which you should, you know, measure the success of it, but why not? It's sold really well. You know, we've sold. We've sold in. In all over the world as well, you know, in Australia, in the U.S. lots. Lots in the U.S. and Australia. You know, you know, there's big expat communities out there from. From Wales and I imagine a lot of collectors as well, and. And. And all over Europe as well, you know, so. So, you know, it's. It's done. It's done very well. I'm really, really. Please, Skull.
- [35:17]
Alan Sisto
That's great.
- [35:17]
Dr. Sarah Brown
That's absolutely fantastic. Adam, thank you again for joining us today. It was a real pleasure to talk with you, and we both wish you and Hobbit the greatest of success.
- [35:32]
Alan Sisto
That was a lot of fun, and I sure hope he actually manages to translate the Lord of the Rings, but we'll have to see. In the meantime, Don, would you start out? I. I gave you the roll call of the kings and queens of Numenor because I believe in you, sir.
- [35:47]
Don Marshall
Thank you. Now, for those of you that maybe missed last episode, I struggled a lot with these names, so I'm gonna do my best, and we'll see what happens.
- [35:59]
Alan Sisto
All right?
- [36:01]
Don Marshall
These are the names of the kings and queens of Elros. Tarminyatur. Vardamir Tar. Amandil Tar. Elendil Tar. Meneldor Tar. Aldarien Tar. Ankalime. The first ruling Queen Tar. Anarion Talsurian. Tar Telperion the second queen, Tar Menastir, Tar Kiritan, Tar Atanamir the Great, Tar Ankaliman, Tar Telemaite, Tar Vanimelda, the third queen, Tar Alkaran, Tar Calmakil, and Tar Adameen. After Ardameen, the kings took the scepter in names of the Numenorean or Aduniak, Ar Adunakor, Ar Zimrathon, Ar Sakalthor, Ar Gimilzor, R Inziladun. Inziladun repented of the ways of the kings and changed his name to Tar Palantir the Farsighted. His daughter should have been the fourth queen, Tar Miriel. But the king's nephew usurped the scepter and became Ar Pharazon the Golden, the last king of the Numenoreans. In the days of Tar Elendil, the first ships of the Numenoreans came back to Middle Earth. His elder child was a daughter, Silmarien. Her son was Valandil, the first of the lords of Andunie in the west of the lands renowned for their friendship with the Eldar. From him were descended Amandil, the last lord and his son, Elendil the Tall.
- [37:39]
Alan Sisto
Give him a hand, everybody. Mr. Don Marshall and the role of the kings and queens.
- [37:46]
Don Marshall
This is why I give Rings of Power so much grace. Because look, if you're going through the appendix, this is not compelling narrative.
- [37:53]
Alan Sisto
No, no, you're right. Let's be clear. This is exactly the most riveting prose that Tolkien's ever written.
- [37:59]
Don Marshall
Oh, no, no. And it makes up a good chunk of this portion, which is just wild. All right, sorry, we carry on.
- [38:07]
Alan Sisto
We do indeed. Like I said, it's just not all that riveting. But you know, it is what it is.
- [38:12]
Don Marshall
Right, but we learn a lot because of these characters names and it gives us context for sort of what we're trying to do in explaining all of this 3400 years of history.
- [38:23]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now our job here is to make it more interesting to flesh out this mere list of names. So that's what we're going to do. And for that we're going to look at unfinished tales. The Line of Elros Kings of Numenor, the Nature of Middle Earth, edited by Karl F. Hostetter, and the Fall of Numenor edited by Brian Sibley.
- [38:40]
Don Marshall
The first name on this list is that of Elros Tar Minutor. We did the word nerdery on his name back a couple of episodes ago and of course we've spoken about his choice as A son of Earendil to be counted among men.
- [38:53]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now in Unfinished Tales we read this. He was born 58 years before the second age began. He remained unwearied until he was 500 years old and then laid down his life in the year 442, having ruled for 410 years.
- [39:07]
Don Marshall
And in the nature of Middle Earth, we read something very interesting about his lifespan. First we learn that the Edain asked for two things when they were offered the reward by the Valar after the fall of Thangorodrim. Long life and peace.
- [39:20]
Alan Sisto
Sounds like my grandmother. Whenever I asked her what she wanted for Christmas, seriously, she would say world peace. And I'm like, thanks a lot, grandma. What am I going to get you? Anyway, in response to that request for long life and peace, we read peace was readily granted. Long life. Not so readily, and only after Manwe had consulted eru. So it turns out that Elros, this is interesting, wasn't actually changed physically like the mortals that descended from him. We read that he and his brother were not actually differently endowed so far as the purely physical potentiality of life was concerned.
- [39:54]
Don Marshall
Instead, he was given what Tolkien called the chief human characteristic that distinguishes them from the elves. The seeking Elswither, as the Eldar call it, the weariness or desire to depart from the world. Tolkien says that Elros died or resigned life when he was about 500 years old.
- [40:13]
Alan Sisto
That is so interesting. I don't think I've known that in all my time as a Tolkien fan. I guess I just imagined that the moment he said I want to be counted among the men, he somehow physically changed and would eventually die of old age, even Numenorean old age. But in fact he didn't. He didn't. His body was not mortal in the way that all his descendants would have been. He just had that desire to seek elsewhere, that weariness, that world weariness. The same thing that we see obviously at the very end of Aragorn's life. But somebody like Aragorn, who knew that it was time to lay down his life, he still would have died he every single one of Elros's descendants. And we'll see because there is one of these kings who, who actually holds on to the scepter until he dies, which is terrible idea. But only Elros had this. And I don't think I knew that he did. I didn't realize that his body wasn't changed. He had still the elf like body that could have continued with that potentiality of life, as Tolkien says, really Interesting.
- [41:13]
Don Marshall
The inner character writer in me wants to know, like, what the conversation was between him and his wife being like, are you sure you don't want to just kind of chill out here forever?
- [41:24]
Alan Sisto
I don't know. 500 years is a nice, round number, ma'am.
- [41:26]
Don Marshall
Hey, it's, you know, of all of the weird, like, dates and places and locations, the fact that it's like, oh, yeah, I guess, like 500 years. Like, why don't you have the exact one?
- [41:37]
Alan Sisto
I mean, that's so interesting that it was 500 years and it now makes sense that he's sort of like, all right, yeah, you know, half a millennium. That's. That's long enough.
- [41:45]
Don Marshall
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
- [41:50]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, 500 years, a long time. So.
- [41:55]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [41:55]
Alan Sisto
That explains it, though. Now, the next name on the list might stand out to you because it's the only name on the list without the TAR prefix or later on the R prefixes. And it's just the name Vardimir.
- [42:07]
Don Marshall
Yeah. This name likely means Varda, jewel with the mirror element.
- [42:12]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [42:12]
Don Marshall
And in Unfinished Tales we read that he was called Noliman for his chief love of the ancient lore.
- [42:19]
Alan Sisto
No, Liman. I like that. That's a good name. He was definitely a nerd, right? He was. He was one of us.
- [42:24]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [42:25]
Alan Sisto
We read, though, in Unfinished Tales the reason why he didn't get the tar prefix, and it. It really has to do with what we just talked about with Elros's long life. When his father, Elros laid down his life, vardomir was already 381 years old. Thanks, Dad.
- [42:39]
Don Marshall
A little bit of a Queen Elizabeth and her son situation. Oh, my goodness.
- [42:45]
Alan Sisto
So he ended up giving the scepter directly to his son, Tar Amandil, to rule.
- [42:49]
Don Marshall
Yeah. We get an explanation in Unfinished Tales that Vladimir is still accounted the second of kings and is deemed to have reigned for one year.
- [42:57]
Alan Sisto
Precisely one year. Right. Exactly. The year in which he inherited the scepter and then handed off the scepter is still considered a year of his rule. Now, it was also his choice to hand over the scepter that began the tradition of yielding the scepter before death. Elros had laid down his life, and that's when the scepter went to Vladimir. But Vladimir, by handing it off before he died, began this tradition of yielding the scepter before death. So that, quote, the kings died of free will, while yet in vigor of mind. Although. Spoilers. It won't stay that way.
- [43:29]
Don Marshall
Yeah, it never. It never does. No Tar Amandil is next on the name.
- [43:34]
Alan Sisto
That's right. That's the next name on the list. The name Amandil is Quenya for lover of Amman. Right. It uses that now recognizable suffix, or should be for most of you, that N D I L. We see it in Erendil and Elendil, and it means friend of or lover or devoted to you. Right. Earendil is, you know, the lover of the sea or devoted to the sea. Well, Amandil is lover of Amon, his son. And the next king was Tar Elendil.
- [43:59]
Don Marshall
He was known as Parmaite, which means book in hand.
- [44:03]
Alan Sisto
Yes.
- [44:04]
Don Marshall
Parma is book, as in Parma El Dalambaron and the Maite suffix meaning handed, according to the Unfinished Tales index.
- [44:12]
Alan Sisto
That's right.
- [44:13]
Don Marshall
This is because he made books from the notes on legends and lore that his grandfather, Vladimir Nolimon had gathered. A little bit of a Christopher Tolkien situation.
- [44:22]
Alan Sisto
Pretty much, yeah. I'm also imagining, like my grandson gathering notes from, you know, five or six hundred outlines of episodes of the PPP and putting it all together in a book.
- [44:36]
Don Marshall
I mean, you know, I think I found my new calling, Alan. Anyway, we continue. It's okay, we already have a book. As cool as the nerdy nicknames are, Tar Elendil and his reign are known for two things. The first is that during his reign in the second age year 600, that the Numenorean ships first made a journey back to Middle earth.
- [45:00]
Alan Sisto
That's right, 600 years. And that was when Veontur sailed his ship, Entulese, which means return to the Grey Havens, where he was welcomed by Gil Galad, and a friendship between the men of Numenor and the elves of Lindon began. Now, the other thing that Tara Lendil is known for is actually his eldest daughter, Silmarion. The law of inheritance that Numenor used at the time, and that's that agnatic primogeniture that we talked about before, meant that she could not ascend to the throne, even though she's the eldest child. It had to be the eldest son at that point.
- [45:28]
Don Marshall
Yeah, I like how you throw out agnatic pro Gemma, whatever. Like we've all just remember what it means from the last lesson.
- [45:34]
Alan Sisto
Of course.
- [45:36]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. It's like spabimmy, but way more complicated.
- [45:40]
Alan Sisto
A few more syllables. Yeah, no doubt.
- [45:41]
Don Marshall
Yeah, a couple. So after she is married and her son Valandil is born, by the way, great name, Valandil, lover of the Valar.
- [45:51]
Alan Sisto
I love that name. Yeah.
- [45:52]
Adam Pearce
Yeah.
- [45:53]
Don Marshall
So Then Elendil made him the first of the Lords of the Idunia, whose line would survive through Elendil, his son Isildur, and eventually several dozen generations later, Aragorn Elessar.
- [46:06]
Alan Sisto
That's right. And I, I do have to give a little bit of a hat tip to Rings of Power for naming Isildur's friend Valandil, because Isildur's son is named Valandil.
- [46:15]
Don Marshall
Clearly a very nice touch.
- [46:17]
Alan Sisto
It is beautiful.
- [46:17]
Don Marshall
As soon as I saw that, I went, oh, I get it now. That's enough. Because before I was like, wait a minute. How that doesn't. That can't be his. I thought that was.
- [46:25]
Alan Sisto
The minute, though, that I saw his name, I realized he's gonna die because. Yeah, yeah, you name your, your son after your friend because your friend died. So he's gonna, he's doomed. All right, back to this text. We get Tar Meneldor and Tar Aldarion as the next kings. Now for more on those two, you really should check out my 24 part series on today's Tolkien Times Second Age Saturdays that ran from March to September of 23. Or you can just come back next season when Sara and I are going to spend several weeks talking through the story of Aldarion and Arendus.
- [46:58]
Don Marshall
The Tldr, which stands for too long didn't read version of Meneldor, is that he married the daughter of of Vientor, the captain of the ships under Tar Elendil. And his name means servant of the heavens. And he built, wait for it, the observatory.
- [47:15]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Yeah.
- [47:17]
Don Marshall
So he as well, stepped down early, resigning the scepter to his son in a policy decision related to Gil Galad's request for aid.
- [47:24]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, the way too long definitely didn't read version of Eldarion is that he was a mighty mariner, sailed to Middle Earth a lot, much to his girlfriend, betrothed wife, horrendous dismay. He, however, was the one who changed the law of succession from agnatic primogeniture to absolute primogeniture, meaning the oldest surviving child, male or female, would inherit the scepter.
- [47:48]
Don Marshall
Kind of a toss up these whole, you're king because you're born first. But it was also during his reign, around second age year 1000, Sauron moved to Mordor and began building Barad Dur.
- [48:00]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now Aldarian's only child, a daughter named Ankalame, became Tar Ankalame, the first ruling queen of Numenor. She reigned for a little over 200 years. Reluctantly married, had a pretty awful marriage, bore a son, and rejected the policies of her father. Ceasing aid. Tokyo Gallon.
- [48:17]
Don Marshall
Yeah, not so great. So during her reign back in Middle Earth, Sauron trying to seduce the elves, winning over the Smiths of Eregion. If this sounds familiar, because you're watching.
- [48:26]
Alan Sisto
Rings of Power, that's the time frame.
- [48:28]
Don Marshall
Yep. Also, Numenor began establishing the sort of permanent havens.
- [48:33]
Alan Sisto
Correct. Now, next up after her was her son, Tar Anarion. There's not much to be said about his reign. The interesting bit is that his eldest two children were daughters, but both refused the heirship, likely out of fear of their grandmother, Ankalame, who would not allow them to marry. So it ended up being his son, Tarsurian, that inherited the scepter.
- [48:51]
Don Marshall
Yeah. And much like this one, not much to be said about Tar Surian's reign either. But during that time, some very crafty craftsman named Annatar, as well as the Smiths of Eregion, began forging the. Wait for it.
- [49:06]
Alan Sisto
Yes.
- [49:07]
Don Marshall
Rings of Power.
- [49:08]
Alan Sisto
Yes. As opposed to the Necklaces of Agility.
- [49:12]
Don Marshall
Or the Boots of Swiftness. So, yes, we continue. Tar Surian's daughter. This is Tar Tell Perian, became the second ruling queen of Numenor, but refused to marry and had no heir. So when she resigned the scepter, it went to her nephew, Minastir, and he was the son of her brother Tar Surian's son, Isilmo.
- [49:34]
Alan Sisto
Exactly. And that's just the rule of absolute primogeniture. At that point, she has no heir. So it goes back previous generation looking to the next child born, that would be Isilmo. And then his eldest, who in this case was Tar Minastir. Now, during Tar Telperion's reign, though, around Second Age 1590, the three rings were completed. And then a decade or so later, around Second Age 1600, Sauron forged the One Ring. Almost 100 years later, in 1693, the war between Sauron and the Elves began. And four years later, in 1697, Eregion is laid waste with Celebrim Banner becoming a thing.
- [50:09]
Don Marshall
Oh, I didn't think you were gonna say that, but no. Oh, yeah. No, I hear you.
- [50:14]
Alan Sisto
Too early. Good. Too soon.
- [50:16]
Don Marshall
No, no. When is. No, because that episode will be out by the time this airs, correct?
- [50:21]
Alan Sisto
Oh, yeah, by the time this airs, I'm sure.
- [50:22]
Don Marshall
Oh, that's gonna be a real.
- [50:24]
Alan Sisto
I mean, we're just assuming that's going to happen. I. I hope that they do, because we're actually recording this before episode Seven and eight of air.
- [50:30]
Don Marshall
Oh, yeah, no, that's true. I just kind of assume they're going to do it because it's so like, it's the iconic part of the. Yeah. So this is when we run into, understandably, a bit of a problem, because Tartel Perrion said, is said to have reigned until 1731. But we are also told that King Tar Minas sent a large Numenorean fleet to Middle Earth to aid the elves in second age, 31 years before tar.
- [50:57]
Alan Sisto
Telperian's reign is supposedly ending. As Christopher Tolkien writes in the footnotes to this section in Unfinished Tales, the date 1731 here given for the end of the rule of Tar Telperian and the accession of Tar Minastir is strangely at variance. I cannot in any way account for the discrepancy. So with that discrepancy in mind, Tarminastir must have ascended to the throne prior to second age 1695, because he was the one who sent the fleet in that year that arrived in 1700 and essentially kicked Sauron's butt out of Eriador.
- [51:28]
Don Marshall
Yeah, and for those of you listening, there will be a test on this afterwards, so make sure you remember the dates.
- [51:34]
Alan Sisto
Okay.
- [51:34]
Don Marshall
In the Unfinished Tales, we read that he loved the Eldar but envied them. More on that in a bit because we're actually going to stop this incredibly compelling, detailed narrative the Tolkien gives us of the kings and queens. Because the next section we read speaks of the shadow, the shadow that fell upon Numenor during Tar Minastir's days. So we will cover the rest right after this break.
- [52:07]
Alan Sisto
It's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. I know for me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year, fitness wise and, well, without getting too blunt, that also means trying to smell better. And there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I've really been happy with, well, with smelling better. Mando is a whole body deodorant, so you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control, you can use Mando there. Yes, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Now, personally, I like the pro sport scent, but bourbon leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code. Now that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code PONEY@shopmando.com S H O P M A N D O.COM Please support our show and tell them we sent you Smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. It's the new year and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now and you're wondering how you're going to make 2025 different look. It's time to do this and Shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down. Things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it with Shopify. Your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com pony now. Soon we'll get back to watching the fall of Numenor in superfast time lapse. But before we do, we want to remind you that there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony podcast than just us.
- [54:54]
Don Marshall
Yes, the time lapse of the ocean getting larger and larger as it approaches.
- [54:58]
Alan Sisto
Numenor and the volcano erupting and the.
- [55:01]
Don Marshall
Yeah, all happening at once. The PPP has an excellent listener community. They are always coming up with great questions and discussion across our social media spaces. You can check out our common room on Facebook, the dedicated subreddit, Twitter and.
- [55:15]
Alan Sisto
More now on Facebook just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. You're going to follow the page to get the news and episodes but you're going to want to join the group to get involved in some really, really fun discussions.
- [55:23]
Don Marshall
Or if you prefer Reddit, you can find us there at R Prancingponypod on Twitter and Instagram. We are simply at PrancingPonyPod.
- [55:31]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien Times. I mentioned it earlier about Eldarion and Horrendous. Check that out on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's a short format daily show with everything from Mailbag Mondays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to check it out@YouTube.com time and follow Tolkien Times on all your social media.
- [55:53]
Don Marshall
Thank you so much for listening. And now back to your regularly scheduled Dark Lord.
- [55:58]
Alan Sisto
Really? The Dark Lord? Is that what you're referring to me now as the Dark Lord?
- [56:03]
Don Marshall
You know I wasn't, but I am now. Thank you for the idea. Appreciate that.
- [56:07]
Alan Sisto
I can't believe I just set myself up for that.
- [56:09]
Don Marshall
All right, swing and a home run for me. All right, Alan, why don't you, Mr. Dark Lord, go ahead and and give us our next reading.
- [56:19]
Alan Sisto
I will indeed. The realm of Numenor endured to the end of the Second Age, and increased ever in power and splendor. And until half the age had passed, the Numenoreans grew also in wisdom and joy. The first sign of the shadow that was to fall upon them appeared in the days of Tar Minastir, 11th King. He it was that sent a great force to the aid of Gil Galad. He loved the Eldar, but envied them. The Numenoreans had now become great mariners, exploring all the seas eastward. And they began to yearn for the west and the forbidden waters. And the more joyful was their life, the more they began to long for the immortality of the Eldar. Moreover, after Minastir, the kings became greedy of wealth and power. At first the Numenoreans had come to Middle Earth as teachers and friends of lesser men afflicted by Sauron. But now their havens became fortresses, holding wide coastlands in subjection. Atonomir and his successors levied heavy tribute, and the ships of the Numenoreans returned laden with spoil. It was Tar Atonomir who first spoke openly against the ban, and declared that the life of the Eldar was his by right. Thus the shadow deepened, and the thought of death darkened the hearts of the people. Then the Numenoreans became divided. On the one hand were the kings, and those who followed them and were estranged from the Eldar and the Valar, on the other were the few who called themselves the Faithful. They lived mostly in the west of the land. The kings and their followers, little by little abandoned the use of the Eldaran tongues. And at last, the 20th king took his royal name in Numenorean form, calling himself Ar Adunakor, Lord of the West. This seemed ill omened to the faithful, for hitherto they had given that title only to one of the Valar or to the elder king himself. And indeed, Ar Adunachor began to persecute the faithful and punished those who used the Elven tongues openly. And the Eldar came no more to Numenor.
- [58:28]
Don Marshall
Just a friendly reminder to any gods out there potentially trying to overtake, stop making things forbidden. It usually leads to rebellion. Just a quick note out there. All right, so we did skip a paragraph, but we've already talked about it. It's the explanation of the change to the laws of succession. And though they're not named, this is talking about Aldarion and his daughter Ankalime.
- [58:50]
Alan Sisto
That's right. And then we get to this summary of the rest of the history of Numenor. I mean. I mean, hey, if Tolkien can summarize the entirety of the Silmarillion in one paragraph, he can certainly shrink a Calabeth down to eight, right? I mean, it can't be that hard after jamming the Silmarillion together like that. We start with this one sentence recap of the kings and queens of Numera that we just went through in the last section, becoming more powerful and for at least half the Second Age, growing in wisdom and joy.
- [59:18]
Don Marshall
But then we get the mention of the king we talked about a moment ago, Tar Minas Tir, and how the first signs of the Shadow came during his reign.
- [59:26]
Alan Sisto
Right.
- [59:26]
Don Marshall
And it is here that we get the notion of Tarminostir loving, but also envying the Eldar. Specifically, now that they have become, you know, successful mariners and have explored the east, they are now yearning for the West.
- [59:39]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, their first trip back to Middle Earth was more than a thousand years ago by now. So I mean it, because these names are of kings and queens who lived for a very long time. It's almost difficult to think that, you know, four or five kings later is this long, but it is. So this is more than a thousand years ago. Back in second age 600, they made their first trip back. So of course, it's only seven rulers, but that's the long life of the Numenoreans for You right there.
- [60:03]
Don Marshall
Yeah. This is the hard part to read, especially because the happier they were, the better things are going, the more envious they are of the elves mortality. They want this to last forever.
- [60:15]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. And that is rough because, you know, remember, that's what they asked for. Right. They asked for longer life, and they asked for peace and wisdom, and they were given these things. And that the challenge now is to have enough wisdom to recognize that you're still mortal and to accept that. But, you know, Tarmin Astir, he did. He was the last of the good kings. I mean, sure, the beginnings of the shadow had fallen, but he did genuinely love the elves, and let's face it, he saved their butts.
- [60:39]
Don Marshall
I mean, really, you're welcome.
- [60:41]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, exactly, you're welcome. Now can we have some of that immortality? No, it's not ours to give, man.
- [60:49]
Don Marshall
Not so much After Tar, the text says that after him, the kings became greedy of wealth and power.
- [60:56]
Alan Sisto
Right.
- [60:56]
Don Marshall
This was the period of their imperial expansion as they all converted havens into military bases and began to sort of rule the coastlands as overlords rather than come to help lesser men.
- [61:09]
Alan Sisto
I, for one, welcome our Numenorean overlords. Little Simpsons reference for you. The text moves on straight away to Tar Atonamir, and we will have plenty to say about him in a bit. But we should note that between Tar Minaster and Tar Atonamir was Tar Kiryatan. And it's really Tar Kiryatan that sets the tone for his son Atanamir to follow.
- [61:32]
Don Marshall
We read in unfinished tales that he was mighty, but also greedy. His servants brought back great stores of metals and gems and oppressed the men of Middle Earth. Something we mentioned before about how metals. Last week we mentioned how metals and.
- [61:46]
Alan Sisto
Gems were precious metals at that time. Yeah. By this point, not as much, but still, you know, clearly he was after, you know, wealth. Yeah, yeah.
- [61:55]
Don Marshall
But Alan, it does get worse because it is said that he constrained his father to yield to him, heir of his free will.
- [62:02]
Alan Sisto
He would, in other words. Dad, it's time. Give me the scepter. No, I don't want to. Dad, it's time. Fine. Here's the scepter. I'm out now. I would like to think that it would have made a difference, honestly. The Tarman Astir would have, you know, lived out his reign a little bit longer and made a difference, but the truth is he ended up dying in second age 1873, only four years after surrendering the scepter to Kiryatan. So really would have only delayed the inevitable at this point. Still, though, because he did this. Right? But by forcing his father's hand, Tolkien is telling us that he caused the first coming of the shadow upon the bliss of Numenor.
- [62:36]
Don Marshall
Yeah, and then we get a deepening of that shadow and the sort of division among the people of Numenor caused by Kiryaton's son, Atanamir.
- [62:45]
Alan Sisto
And if you thought Tarkiraton was a bad guy, greedy and pushing his father out of the throne, oppressing the men of Middle Earth, well, Autonomir says, hold my beer. The text tells us that he spoke openly against the ban of the Valar and held the position that immortality was his by right. This guy's bold, I gotta give him that.
- [63:05]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah.
- [63:07]
Alan Sisto
You know, and with that kind of leadership, well, now we see a split among the people of Numenor. Right. We get the king's men and the faithful.
- [63:13]
Don Marshall
Yeah, Kind of makes sense from this point. For more on this, we will be going to the Akalabeth in the Silmarillion for some. Some lengthy readings on the opposition to the ban of the Valar. First, we read that people were murmuring and complaining among themselves about the ban. Why do the Lords of the west sit there in peace, unending, while we must die and go, we know not whither, Leaving our homes and all that we have made and the Eldar die, Not even those that rebelled against the lords. And since we have mastered all seas and no water is so wild or so wide that our ships cannot overcome it, why should we not go to Avalon and greet there our friends?
- [63:57]
Alan Sisto
Some even I know. Oh, man.
- [64:00]
Don Marshall
The response to this, though, is.
- [64:02]
Alan Sisto
I know.
- [64:03]
Don Marshall
Fantastic.
- [64:04]
Alan Sisto
It really is. But still a little bit more about the murmuring and complaining. Some had gone so far as to suggest they should just go to Amman and taste, quote, the bliss of the powers, Even if it was just for one day. This is what we call a very bad idea.
- [64:20]
Don Marshall
So, anyone with kids? I don't have them, but I have nieces and nephews. Just five more minutes. Just. I swear, I just only need it for five more minutes. Five more minutes of tv. Ten minutes of video games.
- [64:30]
Alan Sisto
So when the elves who were still visiting Numenor at this time. Right. They haven't stopped visiting yet. They will eventually. When they heard these things, they went and told the Valar. And Manwa is said to have been grieved. He wasn't angry. He was grieved. He was sorrowful that the Numenoreans were feeling this way. So he sent messengers directly to Tara Tanamir, who delivered this message in part.
- [64:50]
Don Marshall
I'm not upset, I'm just disappointed. Sorry to interrupt you. I couldn't help.
- [64:55]
Alan Sisto
Wow.
- [64:57]
Don Marshall
I'm sorry.
- [64:58]
Alan Sisto
No, you're not.
- [64:59]
Don Marshall
Fits so perfectly. I'm not upset. I'm just grieved.
- [65:04]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, I'm just grieved. I'm not.
- [65:05]
Don Marshall
I apologize. Carry on, Alan.
- [65:07]
Alan Sisto
The doom of the world. One alone can change who made it. And were you so to voyage that escaping all deceits and snares, you came indeed to Amon, the blessed realm. Little would it profit you, for it is not the land of Manwe that makes its people deathless, but the deathless that dwell therein have hallowed the land. And there you would but wither and grow weary the sooner as moths in a light too strong. Strong and steadfast.
- [65:36]
Don Marshall
Now, as a former journalist, I love delivering the news and I would love to report that Autonomir said, oh, well, if that's the case, we'll just stay here and be content with our long lives. But no, no, in fact he. He did not. He tried to argue, asking them about Arndil.
- [65:51]
Alan Sisto
Now, of course that's a non starter. I mean, Arndel has a fade apart, and for good reason. Also, he can never come back to mortal lands. He is in the ship. Part of the ship, part of the crew. He is Venus. He's not coming back. So really not the case you want to be making. Tara Tonamir.
- [66:08]
Don Marshall
So the messengers make the point you want the best of both worlds, but you're not Hannah Montana. You want to go to Valinor whenever you like and then come back to Numenor.
- [66:16]
Alan Sisto
But no. And that's a reference that's far too young for me. But anyway, these messengers also make the point that immortality isn't exactly reward and mortality isn't exactly punishment. They try to explain that the serial longevity of the elves is simply the fulfillment of their being, while the same death is true of men. They escape and leave the world.
- [66:40]
Don Marshall
Yeah, and I do want to just pause and give a quick note because Alan, you inadvertently and without knowing, gave me one of my favorite quotes from the entirety of the Tolkien Legendarium. This whole explanation between the elves and the humans.
- [66:55]
Alan Sisto
I'm so glad. I'm so glad it felt that way.
- [66:58]
Don Marshall
Here we go. All right, so here's how they make it clear. Therefore, though you be the Dunedine, the fairest of men who escaped from the shadow of old and fought valiantly against it, we say to you, beware the will of ERU may not be gainsayed. And the Valar bid you earnestly not to withhold the trust to which you are called, Lest soon it become again a bond by which you are constrained. Hope rather, that in the end, even the least of your desires shall have fruit. The love of Arda was set in your hearts by Iluvatar. And he does not plant to no purpose. Nonetheless, many ages of men unborn may pass ere that purpose is made known. And to you it will be revealed, and not to the Valar.
- [67:50]
Alan Sisto
Wow. That is such a great passage. You may be mighty men. You have gotten this reward because you were mighty men. You fought against the Shadow. But you know, we can't change the will of the one who created the world, who created you, created us. And that. That's just never going to change. So you need to. You got to trust that. You got to trust that the. The love of Arda that that same maker has placed in your hearts was set there for a reason. And you will eventually, as a race, know what that reason is, you, autonomy or might not know. And that's okay. You're gonna have to trust, man. It's hard.
- [68:32]
Don Marshall
You could almost say that something about the humans shall prove. But the instrument of ERU iluvatar, maybe?
- [68:38]
Alan Sisto
Well, everything sort of does. But yeah, yeah, even the fall.
- [68:41]
Don Marshall
Is this a spabimi?
- [68:42]
Alan Sisto
Maybe, yeah, even the fall of Numenor as we've talked about, because the timing of the fall of Numenor, you know, we've had this conversation. If they fell 500 years later, it's too late for middle Earth. Sauron dominates. He's wiped out the elves. The survivors of the downfall of Numenor had to get there early enough to ally with the elves so that they could have the last alliance and defeat Sauron. Just fantastic.
- [69:05]
Don Marshall
It's good stuff.
- [69:07]
Alan Sisto
I just want to kind of hang out around this idea for a bit though. The idea that these mightiest and best people, right, the fairest of men who escaped from the Shadow. Keep in mind, these are the ancestors of Aragorn. These are the descendants of Earendil.
- [69:19]
Don Marshall
They're cool guys.
- [69:20]
Alan Sisto
Yeah. I mean, the best of the best of the best. And it is interesting how, especially given how Tolkien puts such an emphasis on bloodline, that that doesn't prevent these people from falling, from falling into foolishness and jealousy and, and lack of trust and all of these things. It's just, you see the downfall of Numenor the last several generations, and then of course, you see the good restored in the kingdoms in exile, Arnor and Gondor. And it's sort of like that was a big old speed bump of bad.
- [69:57]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah. It feels like the speed bump is double the size almost. Because this particular concept, because Tolkien does put a lot of. Lot of importance on bloodlines. This concept of. Of being able to sort of be immortal and how you can be mighty and have these bloodlines, but at the same time, you've got, you know, the opposite of that. You've got Maryadoc Brandybuck and Peregrine Tuke and a woman named Halith. And, you know, here's Baron, who's just some guy. And, you know, there's. There's that sort of back and forth between this and. It almost like it. It begs the question, like, do you truly want to be in a place of power?
- [70:32]
Alan Sisto
Right?
- [70:32]
Don Marshall
Like, there's. You look at. You look at the. The rulers that had great times. And then the opposite end of that spectrum is really, really bad.
- [70:41]
Alan Sisto
Really bad as we're going to get to. Because the fall only really has just begun. I will say this, though. It brings me back to that question that I think we dealt with on our questions after Nightfall about Silmarian. If the line had been allowed to go through her, right, she ended up being the father of the first of the Lords of Andunie. That line remained faithful. That was the line that ended with Elendil. Keep in mind Elendil's father, and we'll get to this eventually. Elendil's father is the one who goes and sails west again, violating the ban of the Valar in order to basically pull an Earendil and say, please help us. Please help us. The faithful he's never seen or heard from again.
- [71:22]
Don Marshall
Yeah, we've had one guy flying on a boat to the Undying Lands, and.
- [71:27]
Alan Sisto
Why not a second one?
- [71:28]
Don Marshall
What about second? But it didn't.
- [71:30]
Alan Sisto
It didn't work out.
- [71:31]
Don Marshall
But you know what? I think there's a great line from the Chronicles of the second Chronicles of Narnia movie, Prince Caspian, where Lucy is asking Aslan, why didn't you come save us? And Liam Neeson, in all of his voice acting glory goes, things never happen the same way twice, dear one. And I know that there's a lot of, like, history repeating itself or traditional stuff from Tolkien, but that. That kind of a power move feels like a one in a million sort of thing.
- [71:55]
Alan Sisto
It does. Oh, it really does. And that's the thing. So Elendil's father was never going to make it. But, but, but the point Is that that entire line from Silmarion all the way down to Elendil remained faithful? What if that line had been the line of kings and Numenor had never fallen?
- [72:12]
Don Marshall
Alan, I know you want me to write the. The fanfiction about this, about Numenoral and the influence of.
- [72:19]
Alan Sisto
I mean, because they would. They would have still had to expand at some point. Gondor and Arnor would exist. They wouldn't be kingdoms in exile. They would. And. And we never would have gone through that sort of evil empire phase. I don't know. It's a really interesting. What if. I think maybe we'll. We'll chat about some possibilities of that in the. In the postscript.
- [72:36]
Don Marshall
But you guys can't see Alan's facial expression, but the smile of like, oh my gosh, this is so exciting to think about.
- [72:42]
Alan Sisto
Well, I hadn't really connected, but that idea about bloodlines made me think. I wonder, you know. Yeah, all right, obviously that also brings up the mortal immortal debate again, but we'll have to shelve that for now because we could be here for an hour on that. Instead, Autonomy did not want to hear this argument. He did not want to hear that he was just supposed to trust and wait for this purpose to show up. Instead, we read that he was ill pleased with the counsel of the messengers and gave little heed to it. And the greater part of his people followed him, for they wished still to escape death in their own day, not waiting upon hope and Autonomy lived to a great age, clinging to his life beyond the end of all joy. And he was the first of the Numenoreans to do this, refusing to depart until he was witless and unmanned and denying to his son the kingship at the height of his days. And that in fact led to one of his names, the Unwilling.
- [73:37]
Don Marshall
A great yet horrible nickname.
- [73:40]
Alan Sisto
Exactly. Yeah.
- [73:42]
Don Marshall
Now the text of the appendices here skips forward to Ar Adunakor. There are six kings and queens between Tar Atanamir and Ar Adunakor. We'll look at those.
- [73:53]
Alan Sisto
That's right. So Tar Ancalaman was Atanamir's son. And it was during his reign that the split between king's men and faithful became even larger. And they stopped teaching the elven tongues, though they still used Quenya for the royal titles out of fear of ill fortune.
- [74:06]
Adam Pearce
Yeah.
- [74:06]
Don Marshall
This was also a weird time for Numenor because know the bliss was fading, but their strength was growing. They began to fear death even more so. And this is when they began to, you know, build those big mausoleums. And their wise men started trying to find ways to delay death or to even resurrect people.
- [74:25]
Alan Sisto
That's right. The only thing they managed to do, though, was to develop the art of preserving and corrupt the dead flesh of men. So mummification, essentially. They started focusing more on temporal pleasures as well. And this sort of makes sense again if you're trying to avoid death. And it's sort of like the extreme version of embracing life, you know, the.
- [74:45]
Don Marshall
Opposite end of the spectrum. That is just as chaotic.
- [74:48]
Alan Sisto
Right, exactly. It's eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Those that lived turned the more eagerly to pleasure and revelry, desiring ever more goods and more riches. And after the days of Taron Calaman, the offering of the first fruits to ERU was neglected and men went seldom anymore to the hollow upon the heights of Mineltarma in the midst of the land.
- [75:11]
Don Marshall
Not surprisingly, this is the time, 22:51 to be precise, when the ring wraiths began to appear, three of whom were said to be great lords of Numenorean race. My money's on Kemen from Rings of.
- [75:26]
Alan Sisto
Power, but that's just me, Kemen and Arion. And was it Balthazar? Balthazar or whatever his name is, the other guy. Oh, yeah, they're the three lords of Numenorean race. Right behind our pharaoh on. In that one scene in episode six. Yeah, yeah. I still, I'm seeing her now in her black robes. I was like, aren't you a little short for a Nazgul? Yeah. Oh, man, I love it. After Taran Kalaman was Tar Telamite. Now that's silver handed, per Christopher Tolkien's index in Unfinished Tales. And given that name, you might imagine he loved silver and is said to have his servants seek ever for Mithra Real.
- [76:03]
Don Marshall
Then we get to the third ruling queen. This is Tar Vanimelde. We read of her in Unfinished Tales that she gave little heed to ruling, loving rather music and dance. And the power was wielded by her husband, Herukalmo, younger than she, but a descendant of the same degree from Tar Atanamir.
- [76:23]
Alan Sisto
That would make them second cousins, by the way. Obviously Ms. Party Girl Queen here, having a good old time, not even remotely caring about her job. Like, why even just turn the scepter down, let it go to your sibling.
- [76:36]
Don Marshall
But no, no, because you get the power, you get the respect, you want the glory.
- [76:41]
Alan Sisto
But Father, I just want to sing. There'll be no singing here. That just hit me as I was.
- [76:55]
Don Marshall
Thinking about there's huge swaths of forest.
- [77:03]
Alan Sisto
Now, when we look back at the list from the first reading today, the list of all the kings and queens of Numenor, we go from Tarvana Melde to Tar Alkaran. But Tar Andukal would like a word. Herukalmo, the great grandson of Tara Tanamir, who married his second cousin, Queen Van Amelde, took the scepter when his wife died, giving himself the name name Tar Andukal, instead of allowing the scepter to pass to their son Alkarin.
- [77:27]
Don Marshall
Remember that quiz I mentioned before, Alan? This is just going to be word for word, recite what you just said verbally. It's a verbal test.
- [77:34]
Alan Sisto
I wouldn't even pass that test. And I've got the notes in front of me.
- [77:39]
Don Marshall
I know some do not reckon him in the line of kings and pass to Alkarin.
- [77:45]
Alan Sisto
And I'm sure Alkarin is one of those who does not reckon him in the line of kings. Thanks, dad.
- [77:49]
Don Marshall
Yeah, feels like he might. Yeah. We do get to Alkarin, who ruled for 80 years but was the rightful king for a hundred. Not much happened during his reign, which, you know, pretty much.
- [78:01]
Alan Sisto
Great, great.
- [78:02]
Don Marshall
Yeah. He was followed by Tar Kalamakil, meaning Sword of Light, who was a mighty captain, winning lands along the coast of Middle Earth and earning the hatred of a certain dark lord, Sauron.
- [78:15]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, interestingly, for those following the Rings of Power on Amazon, Kalma Kill was the first king to have his name spoken in Adonai. What was he called by the king's men, our Belzagar. Belzagar. That's where they got that guy's name. It's the compression of the time frames and all that. But Belzagar, it kind of works with.
- [78:37]
Don Marshall
The theming of this whole sort of situation that we see Rings of Power doing.
- [78:40]
Alan Sisto
Doing.
- [78:41]
Don Marshall
Yeah. Finally, there was Tar Artameen. Unless you have a printed version of the book prior to 2004, in which case you actually skip right to Ar Adunakor.
- [78:51]
Alan Sisto
That's right. There was a mistake in the lines. Christopher Tolkien points this out in Unfinished Tales. He writes, when editing the Akalabhaeth, I had not observed that in the line of Elros, the ruler following Tar Calma Kel was not Ar Adunakor, but Tar Ardamine. But it now seems perfectly clear from the fact alone that Tar's death date is here given as 2899, that he was omitted in error from the list in the Lord of the Rings.
- [79:15]
Don Marshall
Oh, utterly forgettable, though in that basically nothing happened. And he was followed by the worst king to date.
- [79:22]
Alan Sisto
Oh, yes, he was. That's where we come back to the text as we get to the 20th king who gave up Quenya altogether and named himself. Well, like I said, it takes guts to do this. Ar Adunachor, Lord of the West. Pretty much naming himself after Manwe, the King of Arda. And that will not go over well now. Under him, Quenya was actually banned, though the faithful still taught it in secret. And ships from Tolaarcea started coming much more rarely, much more secretly. In fact, totally secretly and much more rarely only to the faithful in the West. And if you think it's bad now, just wait. Don, would you take the next passage?
- [80:01]
Don Marshall
I certainly would. The power and wealth, wealth of the Numenoreans nonetheless continued to increase. But their years lessened as their fear of death grew and their joy departed. Tar Palantir attempted to amend the evil, but it was too late. And there was rebellion and strife in Numenor. When he died, his nephew, leader of the rebellion, seized the scepter and became King. Ar Pharazon. Ar Pharazon the Golden, was the proudest and most powerful of all the kings. And no less than the kingship of the world was his desire. He resolved to challenge Sauron the Great for supremacy in Middle Earth. And at length he himself set sail with a great navy and landed at Umbar. So great was the might and splendor of the Numenoreans that Sauron's own servants deserted him. And Sauron humbled himself, doing homage and craving pardon harden. Then Ar Pharazon, in the folly of his pride, carried him back as a prisoner to Numenor. It was not long before he had bewitched the king and was master of his council. And soon he had turned the hearts of all the Numenoreans, except the remnants of the faithful, back towards the darkness. And Sauron lied to the king, declaring that everlasting life would be his who possessed the Undying Lands, and that the ban was imposed only to prevent the kings of Men from surpassing the Valar. But great kings take what is their right, he said at length. Ar Pharazon listened to this counsel, for he felt the waning of his days and was besotted by the fear of death. He prepared then the greatest armament that the world had seen. And when all was ready, he sounded his trumpets and set sail. And he broke the ban of the Valar, going up with war to wrest everlasting life from the Lords of the West. When Ar Pharazon set foot upon the shores of Aman the Blessed, the Valar laid down their guardianship and called upon the One. And the world was changed. Numenor was thrown down and swallowed in the sea. And the Undying Lands were removed forever from the circles of the world. So ended the glory of Numenor.
- [82:23]
Alan Sisto
So ended indeed. My goodness, that's. Yes, that is a gut punch to see Numenor go from, you know, the. The gift given to the men who allied with the. The Eldar and took down Morgoth, to people who just fall into Sauron's lies.
- [82:40]
Don Marshall
And we could have had it all. But now Numenor is rolling in the deep.
- [82:44]
Alan Sisto
It sure is. Now we read again at the beginning of this that the Numenoreans power and wealth kept growing. Of course it did. They were taking power and wealth from the men of Middle Earth. And as a result, I think partly as a result of that, though the text doesn't say specifically, their lifespan began to shrink as they become more afraid of death. It's like the thing they're most afraid of is now coming sooner because they're afraid of that thing.
- [83:05]
Don Marshall
Surprise. It actually makes things worse.
- [83:07]
Alan Sisto
Yeah.
- [83:08]
Don Marshall
The text jumps straight to Tar Palantir and his repentance. Let's take a look at the kings in between. Well, or really the one king in between, because we get our Zimrathon and our Sakalthor, but it's our Gimilzor we want to spend a little bit of time on, as he is skipped over here in the appendix.
- [83:27]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Now, in Unfinished Tales, we read that he was the greatest enemy of the faithful that had yet arisen. And he forbade utterly the use of the elder in tongues and would not permit any of the Eldar to come to the land and punished those that welcomed them. He revered nothing and went never to the hollow of ERU as well.
- [83:45]
Don Marshall
In the Akalabeth, we also learn that in his day the White tree was untended and began to decline. And he forbade utterly the use of the elven tongues and punished those that welcomed the ships of Eressea that still came secretly to the west shores of the land.
- [84:01]
Alan Sisto
He also forcibly removed the faithful from the west and relocated them to the east, essentially moving the faithful to the harbor of Romenna. And the faithful started leaving Numenor in droves. Now, our Gimilzor was fine with their leaving, so long as they didn't come back. He desired to end all friendship between their people and the Eldar of Eressea whom they named the spies of the Valar, hoping to keep their deeds and their councils hidden from the lords of the West. But all that they did was known to Manwe. Of course, all that they did was known to Manwe. That's how this thing works. The Valar were ticked, you know, I mean, earlier we read that Manwe was grieved, now angry, and the elves stopped coming altogether.
- [84:41]
Don Marshall
Yeah, the appendix mentions Tarpalant here, but we should mention how this all came about. Gimilzor was married to Inzilbeth, a member of the faithful. And in a calabash death we read, no love was there between our Gimilzor and his queen or between their sons. In Ziladun, the elder was like his mother in mind as in body, but Gimilkhad the younger went with his father unless he were yet prouder and more willful.
- [85:12]
Alan Sisto
Now, not surprisingly, Gimilzor would have given Gimilkhad the scepter had he been allowed to choose. But it went to Inziladun, and he's the one who took the name of Tar Palantir. He gave peace for a while to the faithful, and he went once more at due seasons to the hollow of eru upon the meneltarma which ar Gimilzor had forsaken. The white tree he tended again with honor. And he prophesied, saying that when the tree perished, then also would the line of the kings come to its end. But his repentance was too late to appease the anger of the Valar with the insolence of his fathers, of which the greater part of his people did not repent. And I think that part's key. Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, you can.
- [85:53]
Don Marshall
You can apologize, but the damage has been done.
- [85:55]
Alan Sisto
Well, but specifically, the greater part of his people did not repent. If somehow Palantir was able to, you know, sway 80% of the population and sort of get the critical mass going to point Numenor in the right direction, I have to think that the Valar would have given them a little more time, maybe said, okay, we're getting you back on the right path. But when nobody listens to Palantir and the island still continues doing what it's doing, and everybody else is still building their mausoleums and sending ships to the. To Middle Earth to take more money, and, you know, all the bad things are happening, it's too late.
- [86:30]
Don Marshall
Yeah. Yeah. And that tension between the brothers in Zilladun, Tarpalantir and Gimilkad would carry through Gimilka died, but his son was Farazan, a name you have no doubt heard by now. And he was successful in wars in Middle Earth. And when he came back after his father died while Tar Palantir was king, the hearts of the people were turned to him, for he brought with him great wealth and was for the time, free in his giving.
- [87:01]
Alan Sisto
And that is how we get what the text here in the appendix gives us. The usurpation of the scepter. Right. It should have gone to Miriel, daughter of Tarpelantir, but she was taken to wife by Pharazon against her will and against the law of Numenor, since she was the child of his father's brother, that is first cousin.
- [87:20]
Don Marshall
Yeah. And as we read here, he would not settle for anything less than the kingship of the entire world, which means, unfortunately for him, challenging Sauron, and I'm.
- [87:31]
Alan Sisto
Just picturing him at the front of the Titanic. I'm king of the world.
- [87:37]
Don Marshall
So we. I love it. I am. I am now picturing Tristan on top of one of the books as our pharaoh's auto power.
- [87:46]
Alan Sisto
I'm gonna be king of the world.
- [87:49]
Don Marshall
Little did he know, because we've. We've got Sauron here and you've got to challenge him. But Sauron actually fears Numenor, and we spend a lot of time on this. When we get to the Akalabeth in a couple of seasons, this. This pride.
- [88:03]
Alan Sisto
Right.
- [88:03]
Don Marshall
This hubris, this way, this incredible way that Sauron really manipulates him and the people of Numenor.
- [88:10]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Although this had a lot to do with his being in possession of the One Ring at the time, which isn't something mentioned in the text. But in letter 211 to Rona Bear in 1958, Tolkien writes that Sauron's personal surrender was voluntary and cunning. He got free transport to Numenor. He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Numenoreans. And we will be going into this a lot again when we get to the Akalabeth proper. But we'll just mention the short version of it is that it involved Melkor worship, the building of a temple, and human sacrifices, along with the burning of the White Tree. There's your tldr.
- [88:44]
Don Marshall
Yeah. If you want to see what might happen in Rings of Power, seasons three, four, and possibly five, provided Numenor is still a thing. That's probably what we're looking at for sure.
- [88:53]
Alan Sisto
Exactly.
- [88:54]
Don Marshall
So instead, we will move on straight to what the appendix says. Is the greatest armament that the world has ever seen. Let's read that part in the Akalabeth. In that time the fleets of the Numenoreans darkened the sea upon the west of the land. And they were like an archipelago of a thousand isles. Their masts were as a forest upon the mountains and their sails like a brooding cloud, and their banners were golden and black. And all things waited upon the word of Ar Pharazon. And Sauron withdrew into the inmost circle of the temple and men brought him victims to be burned.
- [89:34]
Alan Sisto
Even after Manwe's eagles showed up arrayed as for battle, Ar Pharazon is said to have hardened his heart. And he went aboard his mighty ship, Alcarandus, Castle of the Sea. Many oared it was, and many masted golden and sable, and upon it the throne of Ar Pharazon was set. Then he did on his panoply and his crown and let raise his standard. And he gave the signal for the raising of the anchors. And in that hour the trumpets of Numenor outrang the thunder. Thus the fleets of the Numenoreans moved against the menace of the west. And there was little wind, but they had many oars and many strong slaves to row beneath the lash. The sun went down and there came a great silence. Darkness fell upon the land and the sea was still while the world waited for what should betide. Slowly the fleets passed out of the sight of the watchers in the havens and their lights faded and night turned took them. And in the morning they were gone. For a wind arose in the east and it wafted them away. And they broke the ban of the Valar and sailed into forbidden seas, going up with war against the deathless to wrest from them everlasting life within the circles of the world. And I have one thing to say to that. Good luck.
- [90:54]
Don Marshall
Yeah, it's probably not going to go over too well, is it? After our Farazan and his fleet arrive in Amman, he claims the land for his own. And Manwe is just like, you know what? I don't need to deal with this. He calls upon Iluvatar, and as the text says here, the world was changed.
- [91:13]
Alan Sisto
Oh, yes.
- [91:14]
Don Marshall
But the land of Aman and Eressea of the Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of men forever. And Andor, the land of gifts, Numenor of the kings, Elenna of the Star of Earendil, was utterly destroyed.
- [91:33]
Alan Sisto
And from Akalabeth one last time we read in an hour unlooked for by men, this Doom BEFELL on the nine and 30th day since the passing of the fleets. Then suddenly fire burst from the Meneltarma, and there came a mighty wind and a tumult of the earth. And the sky reeled and the hills slid, and Numenor went down into the sea with all its children and its wives and its maidens and its ladies proud, and all its gardens and its halls and its towers, its tombs and its riches and its jewels and its webs and its things painted and carven, and its laughter and its mirth and its music, its wisdom and its lore, they vanished forever. And last of all, the mounting wave, green and cold and plumed with foam, climbing over the land, took to its bosom tar Miriel, the queen, fairer than silver or ivory or pearls. Too late she strove to ascend the steep ways of the Meneltarma to the holy place, for the waters overtook her and her cry was lost in the roaring of the wind.
- [92:44]
Don Marshall
Oh, yeah, I. What a way to go. Like all of those things that Tolkien list, the riches, the jewels, the painted things, the mirth, the music, the wisdom.
- [92:57]
Alan Sisto
The people, the gardens, all of it just. And that's the thing. He, he, he reels off this sentence, and it's a long sentence. You realize that one sentence started with, then suddenly fired burst from the mental tarma, and it goes all the way to they vanished forever. That's a huge long sentence. With all these things that are being destroyed, and it's. It's heartbreaking with every one of those things, it's another punch with this and with this, and it's this, and it's this.
- [93:24]
Don Marshall
You know what? It's also interesting, too, and I've. I don't think I've ever really truly considered it. As I say, almost every time I'm on this podcast, it's given me something new to think about.
- [93:32]
Alan Sisto
I like that.
- [93:33]
Don Marshall
I think about what arrows Aragorn would look like as the king of Numenor, and like all of the things that were lost that could have, you know, come to Middle Earth and. Not that it wasn't, obviously, the faithful were still there, but, like, there's. There's so much more that could have been. And I think that is sort of.
- [93:50]
Alan Sisto
Where definitely weep for what could have been. No doubt. All right, well, we will come back a little bit and talk about those faithful after the break. Now, folks, if you enjoy the show, we hope you'll consider supporting the PPP by joining the Fellowship of the podcast. That's what gives me the ability to work on making this show better every season. And when you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episode recordings, hangouts every month you get episode post scripts, you get ad free episodes, free merch and more.
- [94:35]
Don Marshall
You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and the fellowship of the podcast.
- [94:48]
Alan Sisto
You can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend this to your friends.
- [94:56]
Don Marshall
But make sure you don't recommend taking immortal life from any gods.
- [95:00]
Alan Sisto
No, please don't accept your mortality. Be happy with it.
- [95:05]
Don Marshall
Of all things to tell your listeners on a podcast except your mortality, accept your mortality and subscribe to his Patreon.
- [95:12]
Alan Sisto
Well, I I certainly not planning on becoming immortal with the revenue. I mean I that's. Yeah, it's not enough to freeze my head and, and you know.
- [95:20]
Don Marshall
No, I don't think that technology is even there yet. So we carry on. We do Alan, you want to give us our last reading portion for this episode?
- [95:30]
Alan Sisto
I think I do. The last leaders of the faithful Elendil and his sons escaped from the downfall with nine ships bearing a seedling of Nimloth and the seven Seeing Stones, gifts of the Eldar to their house. And they were born on the wind of a great storm and cast upon the shores of Middle Earth. There they established in the northwest the Numenorean realms in exile Arnor and Gondor. Elendil was the high King and dwelt in the north at Annuminas, and the rule in the south was committed to his sons Isildur and Anarion. They founded there Osgiliath, between Minas Ithil and Minas Anor, not far from the confines of Mordor. For this good at least they believed, had come out of the ruin that Sauron also had perished. But it was not so. Sauron was indeed caught in the wreck of Numenor, so that the bodily form in which he long had walked perished. But he fled back to Middle Earth, a spirit of hatred borne upon a dark wind. He was unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men, but became black and hideous and his power thereafter was through terror alone he re entered Mordor and hid there for a time in silence. But his anger was great when he learned that Elendil, whom he most hated, had escaped him, and was now ordering a realm upon his borders. Therefore After a time he made war upon the exiles before they should take root. Aradruin burst once more into flame and was named anew in Gondor. Amon, Amar, Mount Doom. But Sauron struck too soon before his own power was rebuilt, whereas the power of Gil Galad had increased in his absence. And in the last alliance that was made against him, Sauron was overthrown and the One Ring was taken from him. So ended the Second Age.
- [97:22]
Don Marshall
And then everything after that was awesome. And nothing bad.
- [97:25]
Alan Sisto
That's right. Nothing bad ever again.
- [97:29]
Don Marshall
We finally get to see the good guys here. Ellen deals there with his sons. We've escaped the downfall on nine ships now.
- [97:36]
Alan Sisto
Also on said ships, a seedling of the White Tree, the seven Palantiri, and not listed here, the stone of Erech that we see later with Isildur and the Men of the Mountains.
- [97:44]
Don Marshall
Yeah. We are told here that they were born on the wind of a great storm and carried to the coast of Middle Earth.
- [97:50]
Alan Sisto
That's a very short way of saying what we could read in the Akalabeth. And so we will a much more vivid description. But when the devouring wave rolled over the land and Numenor toppled to its fall, then Elendil would have been overwhelmed and would have deemed it the Lesser Grief to perish. For no wrench of death could be more bitter than the loss and agony of that day. But the great wind took him wilder than any wind that men had known, roaring from the west, and it swept his ships far away and it rent their sails and snapped their masts, hunting the unhappy men like straws upon the water. Nine ships. There were four for Elendil and for Isildur, three and for Anarion, two. And they fled before the black gale out of the twilight of doom into the darkness of the world. And the deeps rose beneath them in towering anger. And waves like unto mountains moving with great caps of riven snow bore them up amid the wreckage of the clouds and after many days cast them away upon the shores of Middle Earth.
- [98:54]
Don Marshall
Father and sons are split up. And here instead of reading from the A Calabheth, we actually look to of the Rings of Power and the Third Age.
- [99:02]
Alan Sisto
Excellency, multiple sources make for a more coherent narrative.
- [99:06]
Don Marshall
There we go. Elendil was cast up by the waves in the land of Lindon, and he was befriended by Gilgalad. Thence he passed up the river Lun, and beyond Erid Luin he established his realm and his people dwelt in many places in Eriador about the courses of the Lune and The Baranduin, but his chief city was Annuminas. Beside the water of Lake Nenuiel, Isildur.
- [99:31]
Alan Sisto
And Anarion were borne away southwards. And at the last, they brought their ships up the great river Anduin that flows out of Rhovanion into the Western sea in the Bay of Belfalas. And they established a refuge realm in those lands that were after called Gondor, whereas the northern kingdom was named Arnor.
- [99:47]
Don Marshall
And while Elendil rules, Arnor and his sons rule Gondor. They labor under the erroneous impression that Sauron has died during the downfall of Numenor.
- [99:56]
Alan Sisto
And it's.
- [99:56]
Don Marshall
You know, it's not entirely unreasonable to.
- [99:59]
Alan Sisto
Think that I would have thought the same thing. You know, I mean, it makes sense. Nothing survived that. But the text tells us it was not so. And instead it speaks of his new form. Right, right. Black and hideous, his power through terror alone. And now, now, finally, he is unable to ever appear fair to anybody.
- [100:16]
Don Marshall
Tolkien also talks about Sauron surviving the downfall in that letter to Rona Bear that we mentioned earlier. This is letter 211. Sauron was first defeated by a miracle, a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world when appealed to by Manwe, though reduced to a spirit of hatred born on a dark wind. I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depends. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault. The problem of evil and its apparent toleration is the permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature if one either believes in their existence or feigns it in a story.
- [101:15]
Alan Sisto
I love that one need not boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring. We get that question a lot, like, how in the world, if Sauron had his ring, how did he take it with him when he was. You know. But that's exactly.
- [101:26]
Don Marshall
Don't think about it too much. Don't think about it too much.
- [101:29]
Alan Sisto
Yeah, Just, you know, you need not boggle about this.
- [101:32]
Don Marshall
Yeah.
- [101:32]
Alan Sisto
I do love the way sort of he just hand waves it. He just like. So not only is Sauron not dead, he's ticked off, right? The guy in Numenor that he hated the absolute most, Elendil, the leader of the faithful whose son saved the White Tree. And I'm sure he's not very happy about that, has not only also Survived, but is now setting up a kingdom on his borders. So he's mad. And this leads Sauron to attack too soon before his own power was rebuilt. And frankly, that sort of hints at the end of the Third Age too, right? I mean, you think about how he attacked too early. That was actually the tactic they were trying to get him to do. And here we're going to read his too early an attack at this point. Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westerness and the Fires of the Mountain were weakened again. And Sauron gathered to him great strength of his servants out of the east and the south. And among them were not a few of the high race of Numenor. For in the days of the sojourn of Sauron in that land, the hearts of well nigh all its people had been turned towards darkness. Therefore, many of those who sailed east in that time and made fortresses and dwellings upon the coasts were already bent to his will. And they served him still gladly in Middle Earth.
- [102:46]
Don Marshall
He took Minas. Yeah, it's getting. It's getting intense. He took Minas Ethel. He destroyed the right White Tree and it's like, hey, wait, didn't I. Didn't I kill that one already? I can just imagine him being like.
- [102:58]
Alan Sisto
Hang on, this looks familiar.
- [103:00]
Don Marshall
Yeah, but is Seal Door got out of there with a little seedling beforehand. Now Elendil and Gil Galad took counsel together, for they perceived that Sauron would grow too strong and would overcome all his enemies one by one if they did not unite against him. Therefore they made the League, which is called the Last Alliance.
- [103:20]
Alan Sisto
That's right. And finally the host of Gil Galad and Elendil had the victory. For the might of the Elves was still great in those days. And the Numenoreans were strong and tall and terrible in their wrath against Aegloss. The spear of Gil Galad none could stand. And the sword of Elendil filled orcs and men with fear for it shone with the light of the sun and of the moon and it was named Narsil. Then Gil Galad and Elendil passed into Mordor, encompassed the stronghold of Sauron and they laid siege to it for seven years and suffered grievous loss by fire and by the darts and bolts of the enemy. And Sauron sent many sorties against them. There, in the valley of Gorgoroth, Anarion son of Elendil, was slain and many others. But at the last, the siege was so straight that Sauron himself came forth. And he wrestled with Gil Galad and Elendil, and they both were slain. And the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down. And with the hilt Shard of Narsil, Isildur cut the ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. Then Sauron was for that time vanquished and he forsook his body and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places and he took no visible shape again for many long years.
- [104:40]
Don Marshall
I love that passage. I also love explaining to people that, no, the Peter Jackson movies do a little bit of a disservice to Gil Galladin and lndil. I personally, I really hope we see that.
- [104:53]
Alan Sisto
Oh, wouldn't that be great action. Yes. The Last alliance is the end of the fifth season.
- [104:58]
Don Marshall
Yeah, I. I feel like that's where they're heading, actually.
- [105:00]
Alan Sisto
I want the disaster, the Gladden Fields. I want Isildur showing that he realizes taking the Ring was wrong and he's gonna go send it back to the elves to be destroyed, you know, or to be. To have something done with it. Right. He knows he's got to get rid of it, so he's going to take it to the elves and. And then end with. With the Sildura's death.
- [105:18]
Don Marshall
Oh, what a way to end. Rings of.
- [105:21]
Alan Sisto
Oh, we'll see. Oh, man.
- [105:23]
Don Marshall
We'll see what happens. We will see what happens. We have a little bit more on Sauron attacking two too soon. For this we go to letter 211. Sauron was of course, confounded by the disaster and diminished. Having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Numenor. He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil Galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established.
- [105:52]
Alan Sisto
That's right. And indeed, so ended the Second Age. But Barlamond struck too soon before his own power was rebuilt, whereas the power of the mailbag had increased in his absence. And in the last alliance that was made against him, Barliman was overthrown and the bag was taken from him. Don, what does Barlan have for us tonight?
- [106:14]
Don Marshall
Barliman has for us a question that is yet another sort of what if? I feel as though Barlaman's specifically having these questions for me, but this question comes to us from Steve from Kentucky. Do you think there is a world that exists where Elendil sees what is happening in Numenor and takes the scepter for himself? And if so, what does Numenor become beyond that?
- [106:39]
Alan Sisto
No, actually, I. I think Elendil knows that that's not a thing to be done. That as much as he can't stand our Pharazon, as much as he knows this is wrong, usurping the scepter would be even more wrong. He also wouldn't be able to get popular support enough to do it, because by now the King's men run Numenor, right? Elendil and the faithful are 5% of the population, if that. They're a very small remnant of Numenor. And I don't think he would get the groundswell of support that he would need to actually be successful in usurping the throne.
- [107:13]
Don Marshall
The Numenorean civil war, to me, feels less like a civil war and more a persecution. Tolkien gives, you know, names to great battles. And this, this is just straight up like we're actively persecuting you for your.
- [107:26]
Alan Sisto
Well, and it's slowly. It's sort of like the frog in boiling water. I mean, the. The faithful were a minority as they became a minority, as more and more people became jealous of the elves and wanting to avoid death. So more and more you had this faction that was growing anti elf. Then you get a king saying, well, immortality is mine by right. And so now, of course, a lot of people who feel the same way are lining up on that side. You've got the faithful. So now you're. Now you're beginning the polarization process. And as that happens, more and more people join the Kingsmen faction, and the King's Men faction actively persecutes the faithful so that they become less and less faithful. So I. There just wouldn't be enough.
- [108:09]
Don Marshall
I wonder then, is there a world that exists? Because there have been so many, you know, situations like this in real world examples. Was it really just a battle of the two minds? Was it, okay, well, are people like him? Do they sort of go where the power lies? And if the winds shift, is this sort of like an Aaron Burr in Hamilton situation?
- [108:27]
Alan Sisto
I'm sure that there would be some who would, but the problem is he'd have to establish that power first, and he just doesn't have enough of a force to do that. I mean, that's the thing. Pharazon controls everything at this point. You gotta remember, Sauron is there.
- [108:41]
Don Marshall
Oh, true.
- [108:41]
Alan Sisto
If Elendil even shows his face, you know, Sauron's gonna end up sacrificing him in the temple. I mean, there's too much to risk. Fedorazan controls, you know, whatever legal system they have Whatever enforcement system they have, he controls everything. It is essentially a dictatorship and he is the guy in charge. But of course he's only nominally in charge cause Sauron's really running the show. So Elendil is at great risk just, you know, existing and. Oh yeah, he certainly doesn't have the power to usurp the throne. However, to answer the question, maybe think about what it would look like. Let's go back to the thing we talked about during the episode. What if Silmarion had been allowed to inherit the throne and Elendil was just the priority proper king instead of having to usurp the throne in that world? Of course, the fall never took place this way.
- [109:31]
Don Marshall
But does the fall happen regardless? Does Elendil, and maybe that's the real question to get at. Does Elendil fall to corruption eventually?
- [109:40]
Alan Sisto
Well, here's the thing. I don't know that they would take Sauron back as prisoner. I mean, let's be honest. That, that, that. Oh yeah, that's a huge factor in the, in the final end of the dialogue.
- [109:49]
Don Marshall
Excellent point.
- [109:50]
Alan Sisto
Now, would the down downfall have happened had they not captured Sauron? The answer is yes. I believe Pharazon was simply. Might have been another generation or two, but I doubt it. I still think Pharazon would have been the end simply because he was the culmination of all the kings before him who had espoused this position of, you know, why should we have to die? We're going to take immortality now. Yes. Sauron's little poke and you know, great kings take what is theirs certainly speeds up the process. If Elendil were to be the one to fall, it would only be because the people over time were naturally prone to falling, even if the kings were right. So let's go back to the line of Silmarian and the Lords of Andunie and every one of those guys. As a faithful, in a way, you tend to think that at some point one of those faithful would have taken the same paths that the other kings took.
- [110:40]
Don Marshall
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a pattern for sure. Sure.
- [110:43]
Alan Sisto
In a way it's easier to stay faithful when you see the example on the other side, to see the contrast and realize that's my alternative. It's not so easy to remain faithful if the tenets of the faith start to slide a little bit. Right. It's easier to define yourself as who you're not and that you are the opposite of X. If there is an X to compare yourself, yourself to.
- [111:11]
Don Marshall
You need that kind of comparison to Be like, here's where I stand, here where my beliefs are.
- [111:15]
Alan Sisto
I mean, it does. It's not like it's necessary, but it certainly helps. And I think that that's, you know, again, we don't see the faithful called the faithful until there's an element of the population that is supporting autonomy or in his claim to have the right to immortality. So now you have the faithful because they're in opposition to the king's men. They're in opposition to these people who want to wrest immortality from the elves and say that this is theirs by right. So, I don't know. I mean, I still think, though, when we look at that bloodline, because that is the line. I mean, look at who's in that line. It is Elendil, it is Isildur, it is Aragorn, it is all of these mighty people. I tend to think that the world in which Elendil is king of Numenor. Numenor, because agnatic primogeniture was removed and replaced with absolute primogeniture early enough for Somarion to inherit the throne.
- [112:08]
Don Marshall
I've already forgotten how to pronounce it.
- [112:10]
Alan Sisto
But carry on in that world. I don't think Numenor falls. I don't know if it's still around or if it falls somewhere in between, because as we see, even his descendants in Arnor fail. As we'll get to. Yeah, you know, next.
- [112:26]
Don Marshall
Yeah, the Rangers, the whole. Yeah, you know, they.
- [112:29]
Alan Sisto
One of the. What is it, the eighth or ninth king, I think, of Arnor. When he dies, his son split up the kingdom, and that split is the beginning of the end of Arnor. In fact, we'll see that next week. And that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. There we go. Please be sure to come back next week when we begin our look at the North Kingdom of Arnor.
- [112:47]
Don Marshall
Folks, that was the best segue I've ever seen on this podcast during my time here. When are three kingdoms better than one? It's a trick question. They are not.
- [112:59]
Alan Sisto
That's right.
- [113:02]
Don Marshall
A couple of thank yous that Alan and I want to give out to the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells, who I don't have to apologize as much for this time.
- [113:11]
Alan Sisto
Just a general apology for the rest of your run would be good.
- [113:14]
Don Marshall
Yeah, pretty much. We've got Barley Manbecka Davis, social media manager Casey Hills Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.
- [113:26]
Alan Sisto
Now, please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com it's where you're gonna find your show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the really cool episode artwork that Megan has done for the PPP over the last two or three seasons.
- [113:40]
Don Marshall
You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books, so if you are interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase and.
- [113:54]
Alan Sisto
We do thank you for that indeed. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kirdance contribution tier. I'll start with demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the UK, J Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Karen in the uk, June in Ireland, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas and Keith in Alabama.
- [114:25]
Don Marshall
There's also Erica in Texas, Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California and Joe in Maryland. Thank you all very much for your support indeed.
- [114:54]
Alan Sisto
Thank you.
- [114:55]
Don Marshall
Make sure you do not miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony podcast. You can subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.
- [115:04]
Alan Sisto
And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and well, most of all, your quenya names for the PPP Co hosts to Barliman@thebrancingponypodcast.com and if you would.
- [115:14]
Don Marshall
Like your voice literally heard, just send us an audio of your question. Visit pod inbox.com prancingponypod to record your questions for us. Be sure though, to still email the question of our limit.
- [115:27]
Alan Sisto
Now, even though Barnum's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, I have been.
- [115:42]
Don Marshall
Don Marshall, the obscure Lord of the Rings Facts Guy and this has been Alan Sisto. Someone I believe might be smart enough to not take their mortal enemy into his house.
- [115:54]
Alan Sisto
I appreciate the high praise, Don. Thank you.
- [116:12]
Don Marshall
It is Ryan Seacrest here. There was a recent social media trend which consisted of flying on a plane with no music, no movies, no entertainment. But a better trend would be going to chumbacasino.com it's like having a mini social casino in your pocket. Chumba casino has over 100 online casino style games, all absolutely free. It's the most fun you can have online and on a plane. So grab your free welcome bonus now@chumbacasino.com sponsored by Chumba Casino. No purchase necessary. VGW Group void where prohibited by law, 18 + terms and conditions apply.