351 – Questions After Nightfall 29

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast - Episode 351: Questions After Nightfall 29 Summary

Release Date: December 8, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 351 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Matt dive deep into the rich lore of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth. This episode, titled "Questions After Nightfall 29," marks their 29th quarterly Q&A session, where passionate listeners pose intriguing questions about Tolkien's expansive universe. Hosted in a convivial "common room" setting, Alan is joined by an all-star cast of co-hosts, fostering an engaging atmosphere filled with humor, pop culture references, and insightful discussions.

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Listener Questions

The majority of the episode revolves around listener-submitted questions, each sparking detailed conversations and thoughtful speculation.

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1. Marie: Emerhil's Acceptance of Aragorn as King

Timestamp: [04:00] - [10:00]

Question:
Marie inquires why Éomer, a noble and high-ranking figure, readily accepts Aragorn as the rightful king without demanding concrete proof. She wonders if Éomer's past encounters with Thorongil (Aragorn's alias) or Aragorn's demonstrated prowess in battle influenced his acceptance.

Discussion:
Alan Sisto elucidates that Aragorn's legitimacy is often taken for granted due to his lineage and demonstrated valor. He references Aragorn's embodiment of Elendil's heritage, notably his sword Andúril and the star of Elendil on his brow, which symbolize his royal lineage. Sisto suggests that Éomer's recognition of Aragorn's inherent nobility and Aragorn's proven leadership in battle served as sufficient validation for his kingship.

Notable Quote:
"It's sort of like, here's a guy out here who I'm thinking of that wonderful passage about how Aragorn, Éomer, and Éowyn were unscathed. Like nobody of the enemies wanted to even approach them." — Alan Sisto [06:15]

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2. Sam: Limited Backstories of the Nazgûl

Timestamp: [10:09] - [18:13]

Question:
Sam questions why Tolkien provided minimal backstories for the Nazgûl, the primary antagonists of The Lord of the Rings. He wonders if Tolkien intentionally avoided delving deeper into their origins or if some notes went missing.

Discussion:
Alan acknowledges the Nazgûl's enigmatic nature, noting that their mystery contributes to their fearsome presence. He explains that Tolkien hinted the Nazgûl were once powerful Numenorean lords but chose not to elaborate, preserving their status as relentless and terrifying foes. The conversation touches upon the potential origins of unnamed Nazgûl and how their lack of individuality maintains their role as embodiments of fear.

Notable Quotes:
"The less we know, the more terrifying." — Jenny [12:19]
"There are some people who really downright hate the Numenoreans, who would make for a really, really good Nazgûl." — Alan Sisto [17:08]

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3. Lewis: Numenorean Lifespan Paradox

Timestamp: [18:15] - [25:55]

Question:
Lewis explores the paradox of the extended lifespans granted to the Numenoreans as a gift from the Valar, juxtaposed with their inherent mortality. He questions why longevity was bestowed if it conflicted with the ultimate gift of mortality.

Discussion:
Alan references The Nature of Middle-earth to explain that the Valar granted Numenoreans longer lifespans as a reward for their faithfulness. However, this extended life ultimately breeds a longing for even greater longevity, leading to unrest and discontent. The conversation delves into how this paradox contributes to the downfall of Numenor, highlighting the tension between extended life and the acceptance of mortality.

Notable Quote:
"And so it seems to me. Is it any wonder that later generations of Numenoreans were confused by this?" — Lewis [19:17]
"They would feel that weariness... They very often became engrossed in lore and crafts." — Alan Sisto [24:12]

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4. Nakat: Interpretation of "The Crownless Shall Be King"

Timestamp: [32:34] - [38:36]

Question:
Nakat seeks clarification on the phrase "The crownless shall be king," questioning whether it refers to Numenorean kings being traditionally crownless or if it points to rulers in exile without formal crowns.

Discussion:
Alan and co-hosts discuss the historical context of Numenorean and Northern Kingdoms' succession laws, emphasizing the symbolism of the Elendilmir over traditional crowns. They explore how the absence of crowns aligns with the elves' use of symbols like the Elendilmir and how this tradition persisted or was altered in the realms of Arnor and Gondor.

Notable Quote:
"It's a callback to that, of course, because it's the star of Elendil. And Elendil was the high king over both realms." — Alan Sisto [35:14]
"They were content for so long... it's a really deep tragedy to see." — Matt [38:07]

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5. Erika: Elements of the Three Elven Rings

Timestamp: [39:43] - [45:30]

Question:
Erika inquires whether the alignment of the Elven Rings with the elements Earth, Wind, and Fire was intentional, possibly echoing the Silmarils, which are associated with similar elemental themes.

Discussion:
Alan confirms that Tolkien likely intended the Elven Rings to mirror the Silmarils' elemental associations. They discuss Tolkien's linguistic choices and how early versions of the Rings' names hinted at these elements. The hosts consider the symbolic significance of each ring's element and how changing "Earth" to "Fire" for one of the Rings enhanced its narrative purpose.

Notable Quote:
"It was originally going to be Water, Fire, and Earth, and it became Air, Water, and Fire. And I think that almost confirms that it is an echo of the Silmarils." — Alan Sisto [44:48]
"There's a certain poetic nature to that." — Matt [45:07]

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6. Jenny: The Role of Celeborn

Timestamp: [45:43] - [53:41]

Question:
Jenny questions the necessity of Celeborn in Tolkien's legendarium, feeling he is an underdeveloped character overshadowed by Galadriel.

Discussion:
Alan defends Celeborn's role, highlighting his wisdom and partnership with Galadriel. The discussion contrasts Celeborn with other Elf lords like Thingol, emphasizing his supportive and humble nature. Marie adds that Celeborn serves as a counterpoint to more domineering figures, showcasing a wise and measured leadership style.

Notable Quote:
"Celeborn is the anti-Thingol, because he's humble. He's also willing to listen to Galadriel." — Marie [51:24]
"She is, as she would say, Celeborn is wise. I'm taking that at face value." — Alan Sisto [51:44]

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7. Diane: Tolkien-Inspired Insults Across Races

Timestamp: [53:53] - [61:50]

Question:
Diane explores how different Middle-earth races—Hobbits, Men, Dwarves, Elves—express anger or frustration through culturally grounded insults. She seeks examples of what each race might call someone who's jamming their way in line.

Discussion:
Alan and Matt brainstorm potential insults based on Tolkien's writings and the personalities of each race. They reference specific instances from the books and films, such as Gimli's derogatory remarks and Aragorn's sharp retorts. The conversation highlights how Tolkien imbued each race with unique ways of expression, reflecting their distinct cultures and societal norms.

Notable Quote:
"The hands of the king are hands of a healer... It was a habit of the old." — Alan Sisto [45:07]
"Bilbo insulted the spiders with clever remarks like 'Ioreth would not shut up.'” — Matt [60:43]

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8. Jerry: Numenorean Succession Laws in Exile

Timestamp: [61:50] - [72:45]

Question:
Jerry questions why the realms of Arnor and Gondor did not adhere to the strict Numenorean primogeniture laws when they became exiles. He notes the absence of female rulers despite the tradition allowing the eldest child, regardless of gender, to inherit the throne.

Discussion:
Alan delves into the historical context, suggesting that the constant state of warfare and the need for warrior kings in Arnor and Gondor likely influenced their adherence to male-only succession. They discuss how the Stewardship's rise in Gondor may have further sidelined traditional succession laws, emphasizing martial prowess over gender.

Notable Quote:
"We've heard the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the lines of kings." — Arvedwi [65:12]
"They were under hostile territory and needed warrior leaders." — Matt [67:36]

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9. Sam: Speculation on New Lord of the Rings Movies

Timestamp: [73:00] - [79:24]

Question:
Sam inquires about the potential content of upcoming Lord of the Rings films beyond "The Hunt for Gollum," seeking the hosts' speculation on what stories might be adapted next.

Discussion:
Alan and Matt discuss possible storylines, expressing interest in exploring the adventures of Thorongil (Aragorn's alias) or depicting a young Aragorn's journey. They entertain ideas like a "War in the North" narrative, focusing on key battles and alliances. The conversation emphasizes the vast timeline of Middle-earth and the myriad stories yet to be told.

Notable Quote:
"I would love to see the story of Thorongil. I would really love to see his adventures in Rohan and Gondor." — Alan Sisto [73:35]
"I would love a War in the North film. It would tie to existing films and expand on unanswered stories." — Matt [75:00]

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10. Marie: The Elfstone's Role in Aragorn's Healing

Timestamp: [79:31] - [85:11]

Question:
Marie asks about the extent to which the Elfstone aided Aragorn during his healing in the Houses of Healing, questioning whether it significantly enhanced his innate abilities.

Discussion:
Alan outlines the history and significance of the Elfstone (Elessar), detailing its origins and magical properties. He explains that the Elfstone likely amplified Aragorn's natural healing abilities, facilitating his recovery from grievous wounds. Marie adds that the Elfstone symbolizes renewal and environmental preservation, aligning with Aragorn's destiny as the healer-king.

Notable Quote:
"The Elfstone simply amplifies Aragorn's natural healing abilities because of his descent from the line of Luthien." — Matt [82:20]
"It served as a dual-purpose tool for both healing individuals and renewing the environment." — Alan Sisto [84:05]

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11. Jerry: Theory on Elves Perceiving the World Flat

Timestamp: [85:11] - [94:14]

Question:
Jerry presents a theory suggesting that while most beings perceive Middle-earth as a spherical world, Elves experience it as flat, explaining their "straight way" to Valinor.

Discussion:
Alan challenges the plausibility of the theory, emphasizing that Middle-earth remains spherical for all inhabitants. They debate the metaphorical implications of the "straight way" and the Elves' unique abilities to depart for Valinor. The conversation underscores the importance of maintaining consistency within Tolkien's world-building while acknowledging fans' creative speculations.

Notable Quote:
"I mean the world is still spherical, and it's spherical for all who live on it." — Alan Sisto [86:46]
"Tolkien was translating these things, so maybe the game was an equivalent to chess." — Matt [94:05]

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12. Diane: Hobbits Keeping Pace with Men

Timestamp: [94:12] - [101:54]

Question:
Diane wonders if Hobbits, being smaller and differently paced than Men, had to exert extra effort to keep up during long journeys, such as the trek from Rivendell to Mordor.

Discussion:
Alan and Matt humorously speculate on the logistics, imagining Hobbits walking faster or Men adjusting their pace. They reference Tolkien's meticulous attention to detail, including stride calculations, and entertain lighthearted comparisons to modern elements like Sonic the Hedgehog. The discussion highlights the charm and practical considerations of Tolkien's world.

Notable Quote:
"They walked at a slightly increased pace and the men probably walked a little slower to let them keep up." — Alan Sisto [87:33]
"Like a Band of Brothers miniseries, but it's hobbits traipsing through areas." — Matt [78:22]

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13. Lewis: Valar as the Zeroth Born

Timestamp: [101:54] - [102:30]

Question:
Lewis contemplates viewing the Valar as the "zeroth born," a tier above Elves and Men, akin to gods shaping the world but still susceptible to making mistakes.

Discussion:
Alan agrees with the analogy, drawing parallels between the Valar's role and that of divine beings. They discuss the limitations of the Valar, their collaborative strengths, and their imperfections, contrasting them with the Elves and Men. The conversation reflects on the nuanced hierarchy within Tolkien's cosmology and the Valar's influence on Middle-earth.

Notable Quote:
"The Valar are to the elves what the elves are to men in many ways." — Alan Sisto [95:12]
"They are creatures of Ilúvatar's thought, so they fit into a hierarchy." — Alan Sisto [95:12]

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Conclusion

Episode 351 of The Prancing Pony Podcast offers an immersive exploration of listener questions, delving into the intricacies of Tolkien's legendarium. From the legitimacy of Aragorn's kingship to the enigmatic nature of the Nazgûl, and from succession laws in exiled realms to the symbolic elements of the Elven Rings, the hosts provide thoughtful analyses enriched with scholarly insights and engaging banter. This episode serves as a testament to the enduring fascination and depth of Tolkien's world, inviting both seasoned fans and newcomers to ponder the enduring mysteries of Middle-earth.

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Notable Resources Mentioned:

• The Nature of Middle-earth by J.R.R. Tolkien
• Unfinished Tales by J.R.R. Tolkien
• Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings

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Transcript

[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

A. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the nerd of the rings, and I'm here with the man of the west who's already in line to see the War of the Rohirrim, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right, Matt. Time for one punch helm. Folks, join us as we welcome a few of our patrons to join us for our 29th quarterly questions after Nightfall.

[Matt]

Yeah, how many years is that?

[Alan Sisto]

I'm not good at math quarterly, so it's a little more than seven.

[Matt]

So there you go.

[Alan Sisto]

Though I think a lot of seasons, we only did three because it's sort of hard to pull one off in the middle of the summer hiatus, so I think that's fair. We've been doing these for eight years now. Yeah.

[Matt]

Okay. It's a long time, Alan.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. You were what, three when we started?

[Matt]

I think I was six.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, great. I believe that. All right.

[Matt]

Yeah. Well, no matter how you got here, folks, you're all welcome here in the common room. Here at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. We do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more. But we're. Once a quarter, we take a break from our read through, in this case of the appendices, and welcome a few of our patrons to join us here in the common room and bring along some of their very best questions.

[Matt]

And I can't stress this enough, we have no idea what they're going to ask us. So as we've done so many times before, yes, we're clueless here. We're just going to do the best job that we can in answering their questions with whatever we have on our shelves and in our all too limited brains.

[Alan Sisto]

Speak for yourself, sir. We are going to have fun with that, for sure. But, yes, as with our previous Questions After Nightfall episodes, aside from any possible edits for, you know, nervous coughs and time spent flipping through pages while we look for answers, we will be presenting this as it was recorded live. So all the questions and the answers you hear in this episode will have been recorded during this session.

[Matt]

And if you'd like to be on one of these with us sometime, join the Fellowship of the [e-mail] Prancing Pony pod questions after nightfall episodes are recorded once a quarter, and patrons at the Elrond's Honorarium tier and higher, are invited to join.

[Alan Sisto]

It's just one of the ways that we show our appreciation to those who support the show, giving them the opportunity to join us, make us laugh, make us think, maybe get an answer from us, and almost always embarrass us in the best possible way. Now let's go ahead and get started. Matt, who do we have up first tonight?

[Matt]

First up, we have Marie.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, Marie, welcome back to Questions After Nightfall.

[Marie]

Thank you. It's great to be here. I had a question about Emerhill and the fact that he seems to accept the fact that Aragorn is the rightful king without any proofs or. I mean, unless it's the Elendamir, I'm kind of, I'm just curious, did he maybe meet Aragorn when he was Thorongil and working, you know, serving in Minas Tirith or. Like he has. I mean, this guy has some pretty, you know, is definitely up the scale in the royalty category, but he seems to have no questions as far as Aragorn's right to be.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Marie]

To be king.

[Alan Sisto]

That. That is a very good question. I. The sort of the bona fides that Aragorn has are just accepted really, by a lot of people. But I think in the case of Imrahil, and I am going to look at the timeline to see maybe like, how old was he when Thorongil came to Minas Tirith?

[Matt]

So I've actually got that he would have been 25 years old when around.

[Alan Sisto]

That time okay, very possible then that he would have either met Thorongil or at least, at the very least had heard about him because he was really the right hand man of the steward at the time, Denethor's father. And I'm sure his, his feats were, were well known. So that's part of it. All he might need to do is say, hey, remember me? You know, I'm Thorongil. But I think for him, seeing him on the battlefield, watching him wield Andoril and seeing his ability to fight and lead would have been proof enough. I mean, here's a guy out here who I'm thinking of that wonderful passage about how Aragorn, Eomer and Imrahil were unscathed. Like nobody of the enemies wanted to even approach them. It was sort of like, oh no, no, no, no, I don't want, you take that guy. I'm going to go on and take this low level guard. I don't want to touch that Aragorn or that Imrahil or that Eomer. So he's sort of put in that same category. So Imrahil himself, knowing of his own lineage and his own royalty, he's watching himself. He's watching Eomer, the king's heir and eventual king then after Theoden's death. And I think he sees Aragorn and he sees that royalty just inherent in the way he wields Andoril. But yeah, the Elendilmir, the Elessar, all of those things fit together.

[Matt]

Yeah. And the standard of Elendil that he unfurls when he shows up.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. Certainly that's the claim whether that's okay, I believe you right away.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like can, can standards be forged? I guess that's the que.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, like, I mean they certainly get to be made. This was made by Arwen. She could have made one for me and it would be illegitimate.

[Matt]

Yeah, right. It's like a fake, a fake id. Like wait, give me, give me a closer look at that. Like, is that real mithril on that standard that I see?

[Alan Sisto]

Is that really made of mithril and gold? Because. Okay, then that's fine. I mean if that's made by Arwen, Elrond's daughter. Yeah, it does.

[Matt]

Check out this, this, this looks like Rivendell quality here. Okay, I'm buying this. It's not the wish version of the standard of Elendil. Yeah, it's the real deal.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. That is a really good question because we don't see anybody saying, by the way, how Are you king? Like what are your. Can you show me your id? You know, and I think just simply put, it's a combination of factors. The fighting also later on, the healing, the hands of the king or the hands of a healer. Imrahil might or might not be familiar with the old wives tale about that, that Ioreth is. But certainly the idea that he's descended from that line, the line of Luthien that would have those powers. So I think combination of factors, one of which would just be Imrahil's own sort of inherent recognition of, you know, I'm royal, you're even more royal, you must be the king.

[Matt]

I think Imrahil says something that implies that he was familiar with the.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh really? All right. While you're thinking about anything that Imrahil said, I'm actually looking at one more fact and it has to do with the Erei or you already mentioned the standard, of course, that's a huge thing, right? The standard of the kings of Gondor, the standard of Elendil. At the end of that passage we read about them all coming off the ships onto the keys and, and sweeping north like a storm. At the end of that we read, but before all went Aragorn with the flame of the west, Andoril, like a new fire kindled, Narsil reforged as deadly as of old. And upon his brow was the star of Elendil. That right there is the symbol of royalty in the north. It was Elendil's own. I mean this is a duplicate, right? It's the Elendil mirror. And you know, the original Elendil mirror was lost with Isildur. Elessar would eventually find it again. But this is a sign of his royalty for sure. And it's only shortly after that that we read about the three of them, the Three Amigos, as I'm going to call them now, Aragorn, Aamir and Emrahil. And that conjures up some images I really enjoy about them being unscathed, right, that they have this. Such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms. And few indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their wrath. So I think the star of Elendil combined with the sword, combined with the fact that Amer already was buying it, right? Because Amer had met him earlier and accepted his claim. Mithrandir would have certainly echoed that. I think there's enough evidence to support that. Imrahil would be like, okay, yeah, we're good.

[Matt]

He's on board. He's on board.

[Alan Sisto]

Certainly better than the crazy old man currently in the role just tried to kill his son, right?

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, Great question, Marie. I really enjoy that. Emeriel is one of my favorite characters, by the way. I just love that guy because he's. I mean, again, he's totally underrated. There's Aragorn and Amer who are just. Everybody knows how tough they are. But then there's Emrahil, so. Yeah, exactly. Louis points out in the chat, my crazy brother in law. I'd almost forgotten about that because that is exactly the relation between Emrahil and Denethor. All right, Matt, who did we have up next?

[Matt]

We have Sam up next.

[Alan Sisto]

Sam, welcome.

[Sam]

Yeah, thank you. This is my second time, so. Yeah, I know. We got to just talk about the good guys for a chance. Let's change gears and talk about the bad guys.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, those are always fun.

[Sam]

So my question is, does it ever surprise you that Tolkien never wrote more about the backstories behind the Nazgul and who it is that's behind the cloaks who got the rings? Like, he wrote so much about everyone. And these are like the. Arguably the prime villains.

[Alan Sisto]

They really are. They're certainly the face of the villain. Yeah, right.

[Sam]

And he didn't. He barely wrote anything. Like, we get the Witch King. We get. What's his name? The Easterling.

[Alan Sisto]

Kamuul the Easterling. The only named Ringwraith.

[Sam]

Yeah, like, that's all we get, really. Tolkien. Like, Christopher, did you not, like, did you miss a box?

[Alan Sisto]

I would love it if he missed a box. That would be fantastic.

[Sam]

Can you. Can you guys speculate on if he avoided the topic intentionally? There's a box of notes missing. And if you. If you could, what backstory would you write for the man?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, oh, oh, oh, thank you. I'm loving that. That option right there to write some. Some very complex stuff.

[Sam]

I know you guys have been on what if what if Kicks recently.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, especially when Don's on the show. I do a lot of what if in Middle Earth. That's sort of his. His strength. That's a great question, Sam. Thank you for it. Yeah, you're right. We know so very little about the themselves. We know that it is said that three of them were great Numenorean lords of high rank. We know that. And that one of those would end up being the Witch King. We know. Well, yeah. And then we know that Kamuul the Easterling is the only named one. We know that. He's sort of like second in rank because he's the one who ends up ruling Dol Guldur when Sauron's in Barad Dur and the Witch King is in Minas Morgul. But, yeah, there's not a lot more that we know, is there?

[Matt]

No, it keeps them very mysterious, though. I will say that it's like. Like waiting to see Jaws until a certain point in the film. You know, there's like, a certain fear that comes of the unknown, which I think makes sense. Yeah, I see. I see Jenny's raising her hand here.

[Alan Sisto]

Jenny, what do you have to say?

[Jenny]

Yeah, I just wanted to second that. That for me, the lack of personality of them all makes them all scarier. Somebody said or I read or I heard somebody say that Ring wraiths are like pure fear.

[Alan Sisto]

That's about right. That is their only power, and that's.

[Jenny]

Their power, and they can't hurt anybody or do anything except through fear. And I think if you start giving them personalities and remembering their kingly things when they were human in full form.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Jenny]

Then they lose that.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. Right? I mean, when you name something, when you identify it, you take away some of that unknown, and that does reduce the fear. Right. I mean, that identification alone makes it a little less scary. I mean, even the Witch King, we only know his title, the Witch King, we don't know who he was. We don't know what he did, other than that he was a mighty sorcerer of old. That's about it.

[Matt]

I wouldn't be opposed. Like, it's one of those things where if Tolkien would have written it, I would have read it.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, heck, yeah.

[Matt]

You know, I like the idea. And especially because Sam left the. The idea, you know, the door open for what ifs. I'm just gonna, like, kick that door open and go charging in right now. Because I actually re. I like the idea of knowing, like, a backstory or. Or having my own head cannon of. Of backstories for these characters, and the idea that that is lost to them makes it compelling for me. Like, so even Kamul. Like, if Kamul has, like, no memory of who he was because he's so reduced to nothing but this. But this wraith form. That's kind of cool. So, like, I. I feel, like, this freedom as a fan to, like, have headcanons, so. So a couple of my headcanons are. Or stories that I would do if I was waving a magic wand and, you know, making stories. So I would have at least one haradrim Ring Wraith. And the motivation, the seduction that happens there is that. I'm pretty sure the timing works out where Numenor is oppressing the Haradrim and he gets a Ring of Power in order to help lead his people against Numenoreans.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

But obviously it backfires, you know, and he might. Might have some temporary victories against the Numenoreans, but we all know what happens there.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, almost certainly. I mean, yeah, Kamu's an Easterling, so we got one Easterling. We're at least going to have one. One Horadrim. I think we're going to have a Dunlending. And then we know we got three Lords of Numenorean race, and that leaves three more who could come from anywhere. You know, you might have a corrupt Northman. Right. We do learn before the Northmen become the Aotheod that there were some Northmen that actually fought alongside the enemy. You know, though most were allied with Gondor. You could have Khand. Khand, yes, the Variags of Khand. Yeah. You could have a Variag of Cond from there serving as one of the Ringwraiths. I mean, it's a really interesting question as to who they might be, what they might have done in their lives, but there's so much about the Ringwraiths in specific that just remains a mystery. And like Jenny suggested, there's something about that mystery that does make them more terrifying.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, and I'm sure one of them is very short and named Aryan. In case anybody's watching Rings of Power. There's also the most punchable of the Ring Wraiths is named Kemen.

[Matt]

Oh, gosh, I really hope he's not the Witch King. That'll be.

[Alan Sisto]

I hope he's not the Witch King. He's too short to be the Witch King. Yeah. He's also too much of a wuss.

[Matt]

To be the Witch King. He's too lame. He's too lame to be the Witch King.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm almost wondering, and I know I'm going off on a Rings of Power tangent. We try to keep Rings of Power separate from the ppp, but I'm failing on this particular answer because I sort of feel like maybe, maybe, maybe they're going to go off lore and have the Istar, who is not Saruman, but one of the Blues who's gone bad. They might give him a spot as well. Maybe he might even be Kamuul the Easterling. Who knows, since he's from the East. But we'll see.

[Matt]

I will say the word. Kamul does not appear in the Lord of the Rings. That's Unfinished tales.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. That is Unfinished tales. So it's not. I mean, I guess if we want to get into discussions of canonicity, we can, but let's not, because that's. We'd be here all day for that. Yeah. Jenny, one more thing to add here, just very briefly.

[Jenny]

Seeing you brought in the Ring's power.

[Alan Sisto]

I opened up Pandora's box.

[Diane]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Jenny]

In terms of evil, there's so much backstory for Sauron, I feel his evil is being diluted.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, that's fair. That's fair. You know, he's, he's terrifying, of course. And they do make it clear that, you know, people can't even stand to be in his presence. It's just too much. But, yeah, I, that's a, that's a good point. The less we know. Yeah, I mean, the less we know, the more terrifying. There's no doubt about that. Yeah, I, I, I. Lewis also mentions in the chat Tal Omar. That would be a super, super deep cut. I mean, I, I think I'm actually working through the tale of Tal Omar right now in today's Tolkien times. And maybe not so much him, but one of the other people in that story. Right? You know, one of the master of that region or, you know, one of Hazad's kin or something along those lines. But there are some people there who really downright hate the Numenoreans, who would make for a really, really good Nazgul, if you're looking for people to defeat Gondor. So. Oh, man. Mighty in their day. Kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. Of course, some of them were already that to begin with, as we know. The. The Witch King of Angmar was for sure. Good question, though, Sam. Really fun. I love playing around with the bad guys. All right, Matt, who's up next?

[Matt]

We've got Lewis. Up next.

[Alan Sisto]

Lewis. Welcome back, sir.

[Lewis]

Okay, thank you very much. So, my question was sparked by your recent discussion with Don about the appendix summarizing the Second Age. And you reminded me of this question that I have long wondered about. So, at the end of the First Age, the Valar gave the half Elven, Elrond and Elrose, the choice of which Kindred did belong to. We know, of course, that Elrond chose to be kind among the elves, and Elros chose to be of mankind. Therefore, he chose the gift of Men, which means, among other things, that he would die and pass beyond the Confines of the world. Now we've gone over many times the reasons why the gift of men is meant to be seen in the context of Legendarium as a real gift by Iluvatar. But here's the sticking point. At the same time, Elros and the other newly mentioned Numenoreans were granted a much longer lifespan than regular men. The Valar said, in effect, we're going to grant you something that's a little bit closer to the elves serial longevity, but not quite there.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct.

[Lewis]

So it seems to be a paradox that the greater lifespan they were granted was supposed to be seen as a gift or reward, but then so would too was mortality. And so it seems to me. Is it any wonder that later generations of Numenoreans were confused by this? Yeah, I mean, yeah, the mortality of men I get within the framework of the Legendarium. But why the longer lifespan? Why were they granted that?

[Matt]

So they could build better statues.

[Alan Sisto]

I like that. I think they were granted it because it's literally one of the two things that they asked for when Thangorodrim fell and the Valar offered them. We read, and this is a deep cut. This is from the Lives of the Numenoreans chapter in the Nature of Middle Earth. So this is something that was only brought to light in recent years. We read that long life and peace were the two things that the Edain asked for when the Valar offered them reward at the fall of Thengorodrim. Peace was readily granted long life, not so readily, and only after Manwe had consulted Erudite. So even for that element they had to get special permission to give them extended lifespan. The interesting thing though was that with Elros in particular, he actually didn't physically change. He could have continued. This is so interesting. I did not know this until Don and I were going through this chapter and here's. I'm going to go ahead and just read because I think it's easier to just share the text. He and his brother Elrond were not actually differently endowed so far as the purely physical potentiality of life was concerned. But since Elros elected to remain among the kindred of men, he retained the chief human characteristic as compared with the Quendi, the seeking elsewhither, as the Eldar called it, the weariness or desire to depart from the world. So he didn't have to, but he wanted to. Right at the end of his life, of those 500 years, which is when he resigned his life, he felt that weariness. And then we read throughout the rest of that chapter Sort of like how and when that weariness set in. But the rest of the Numenoreans were physically mortal and shortly after the weariness would kick in, you know, they would then age at a normal pace and die of old age. It's really, really interesting that this lifespan, like you said, is sort of a double edged sword and almost runs counter to the gift of men. Because what it does is it creates in the Numenoreans the experience of an extended life, which really all it does is give you a desire to have even more. I mean it's, it definitely backfires and.

[Lewis]

Yeah, that's going to be my point. It seems like this is a really bad idea to me. It seems. And it almost seems like the Valar were screwing up there. But thanks, thanks very much for finding that because that's, that's actually something I have not read yet.

[Alan Sisto]

It's such a fascinating chapter. If you've got the nature of Middle Earth, definitely look that up. I, I know the nature of Middle Earth can be a challenge because it starts at those math heavy chapters talking about elf lifespans and the years of the trees and everything. I just, my brain just, yeah, I just go straight past that. I can't even, I just leave that for somebody else. But I'll tell you what, the stuff that we get on, on the other elements in this case Elros is very interesting. Mortality as well as the rest of how Numenoreans, you know, look at this was really, really fascinating. Basically they aged like normal people until around 20 and then that aging slowed dramatically until somewhere between 350 to 400 years. And then they would go back to like a normal aging process. So you would feel that weariness and you're like, okay, well now my lifespan is going to be coming to an end real soon, so I'm going to step down. And that's when they would, you know, resign from life rather than cling to life in decrepitude, as the text in that chapter tells us. But it's sort of a reward, but it's sort of not. You know, the Eldar did make it real clear, right.

[Matt]

I guess giving them more life maybe makes them feel a bit closer and tempted by that immortality. But I don't know, I like is, is anyone truly ready for the end if they're in that kind of that's fair mental space that the later Numenoreans are like, yeah, you know, like you think of R. Farzon or whoever, you know, any of those later kings, you know, no number is going to Be no good enough. They'll always run out of time. Which I, I think is one of the, the beautiful things of, of Tolkien's writings is those early Numenoreans who just say like okay, my time is up. And they're at peace with that. And then for Aragorn to do that.

[Alan Sisto]

Later, sort of reestablishing that.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. In the tale of Aragorn Arwen, which I still think is some of his most beautiful writing across everything.

[Alan Sisto]

Appendix A, 15 people go look it up if you haven't read it already.

[Matt]

A one to five.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, great stuff by the way. I made an error. I said that they age normally until 20. Actually I just looked it up and I completely botched it after about seven years. They grew up mentally with rapidity. Mentally, right. So they physically are the same, but they grow mentally very quickly and at 20 years new and understood far more than a normal human of that age, knowing plenty of 20 year olds, including myself, that's a low bar. A consequence of this reinforced by their expectation of long lasting vigor which left them with little sense of urgency in the first half of their lives. I mean, think about it, if you're going to live to be 400 years old, you're not sweating turning 40, you know, it's just not a big deal. So because of that they very often became engrossed in lore and crafts and various intellectual artistic pursuits to a far greater degree than normal. Can you imagine being able to pursue your interests in that way for centuries? But yes, wouldn't that also lead you to want to keep doing it more?

[Matt]

To do it more?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it really is sort of like, oh, this is great, but wow, it's a taste of what could be even better. Yeah, that would be hard. That would be really, really hard. They definitely were very Elf like in that same chapter we learned things that they like. The elves basically got married only once. The only time you'd be permitted a second marriage is if one of the partners died young, leaving them still with a need or desire of children. But that was very rare because death basically didn't happen by sickness or mischance. You know, people just lived until they laid down their lives due to the grace of the Valar. It's just really, really fascinating, but a tough place to be put in, that's for sure. Nikat.

[Nakat]

So we actually had a little bit of this discussion in the Lake Town Smile. But the discussion was more around Tall etceia being visible from Numenor. And one of the arguments for that was because if you are Looking at them, you are going to become envious. But one of the arguments was that maybe it was more like having Mona Lisa in one of the, you know, museums, that you are looking at it reverently. You have it in your view, but you're not possessing it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Nakat]

So in some similar way. But this argument about the lifespan and what you can achieve in that lifespan kind of trumps it. But I wonder if that can be made in the same, you know, circle as well.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's an interesting one, because it also brings us back to rings of power, doesn't it, Matt? I mean, there's that very moment where Farazan says to his son, yeah, you know, you see that tower? No, I can't see it. Well, that's right. You can only see it if you're on the top of the mountain. And only those who are farsighted, the elves put it there on purpose to. To make us jealous, basically, is his whole deal, like, to remind us of our place, that we, you know, are mortal and that no matter what we do.

[Matt]

The elves didn't put it there, by the way.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they didn't. It was already there before.

[Matt]

It's like just. They just need. The Numenoreans just need to get over themselves is what they're. Seriously.

[Alan Sisto]

Seriously, man.

[Matt]

It's called contentment, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

They just need to practice.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the thing. They were content for so long. They were, and I think they were. It's that closeness to. It's the closeness to the Eldar, it's the respect for the Valar, and it's ultimately their reverence for erudite that helps keep them there. Because if you notice that it's at the same time that they start to get jealous. They start to have this discontent that's also simultaneous. Yeah, yeah. It's simultaneous with their cutting off or at least reducing contact with the Eldar. And eventually they stop going up the meneltarma and doing the ceremonies on there, and, you know, the ERU cherme, the Eruhantele and the Erulitele. And it's just one of those things where they all go hand in hand. And if you have the one, then you have the others. And by any one of those things failing, the others fail as well. And it's a really deep tragedy to see because the downhill fall is rapid in terms of history, even though it's not quick in terms of years because of their lifespans. Yep, man. Numenor. Heartbreaking story. Good question, though, Louis. Thank you. Excellent. All Right, folks, we'll come back with more questions after the break. It's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. I know for me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year, fitness wise and well, without getting too blunt. That also means trying to smell better. And there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I've really been happy with, well, with smelling better. Mando is a whole body deodorant. So you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control. You can use Mando there. Yes, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Now, personally, I like the pro sport scent, but Bourbon leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code. Now that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code [e-mail] S-H O P M A N-D O.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. It's the new year and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now and you're wondering how you're going to make 2025 different look. It's time to do this and Shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down. Things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from one easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it. With Shopify. Your first sale is closer than you think established in 2025. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com/pony soon we're going to get back to a few more listener questions, but before we do, we want to remind you there is a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Matt]

Thankfully the PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our common room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more.

[Alan Sisto]

Now on Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. You can follow the page to get the news and episode releases, but really, you're gonna wanna join the group for some great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R Prancingponypod. On Twitter and Instagram, we're simply rancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format D with everything from Tolkien Tuesday to First Age Friday. Be sure to check it out at YouTube.com tolkientimes and follow Tolkien Times on all your social media. So Matt, we've had some good questions. We've had first round of questions. What about second round?

[Matt]

Let's next go to Nakat.

[Alan Sisto]

Welcome Nakat.

[Nakat]

My question, I have written a bunch of them, but one of the questions which I I actually discussed it with Sean a little bit and I did ask him this question and I would want to see what you guys would respond to it. But at the same time I was satisfied with his answer as well. But yeah, but it is an interesting one in which everyone can have a different preview and it kind of bounces back off of Marie's question. So it is about that verse, the crownless again shall be king. So the crownless is basically the keyword here. So when Bilbo writes this, does crownless indicate that the Numenorean kings were basically crownless? They had the scepter and. Well, so do you think that it has anything to do with that?

[Alan Sisto]

I think that's a very good insight that I had not caught. But you're absolutely right.

[Matt]

So my assumption was always, you know, it's the his line is of the fallen Arnor. So there's no kingdom there, there's no crown, there's no king. So I assume that that was where that line of. Was pointing toward.

[Alan Sisto]

Right, But I think she raises a very good point. It's not just the kings of Numenor, it's the kings of Arnor. They also. They followed Elendil's deal and just were wearing the Elendil mirror. Not a crown, but just that. That silver fillet. Nakat. You've got something to add on this real quick before we go any further?

[Nakat]

Yeah, Actually, it has also this footnote with it where it is mentioned, and in that footnote, Tolkien has written this same thing, that the scepter was the main thing about the Numenorean kings. And then later on it was Elendil Myr. And afterwards it became that wore a helm, which became the crown. So afterwards it did become that, but traditionally they were crownless. So this is basically where it started up in my head.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah, and it's a callback to that, of course, because it's the star of Elendil. And Elendil was the high king over both realms, you know, over. Over Arnor and Gondor. And he himself, of course, would not have worn a crown. He was wearing the other Elendil Mir. Of course, that Elendilmir folks dated way back to the early years of Numenor goes all the way back to Silmarien. She was the daughter of, I think, the fourth king, Tar Elendil. And of course, had the law been different, then she would have become the first ruling queen. But this was before they gave up agnatic primogeniture for straight primogeniture.

[Matt]

And so, man, look at that vocabulary.

[Alan Sisto]

All the time I've been spending in Numenor and all of that stuff lately. I mean, you dive into the appendices and the next thing you know, you're wrapped, rattling off terms like that.

[Matt]

Yeah, that was good, man.

[Alan Sisto]

She, of course, was given the. The original Elendil Mir. And so it passed. She was the. The foremother, if you will, of the lords of Andunie. So that's the line that Elendil was from. Therefore it's the line that the kings of Arnor and Gondor were from. But, yeah, absolutely. In the north, it was always the Elendilmir. In the south, it was the. The helm, the plain Numenorean war helm, the one worn by Numenorean kings in the battle of Dagorlad. Anorian's was, of course, crushed, but it was sort of. It was modeled after that. The war helm of Isildur was used for the crowning of the kings of Gondor. So that of course changed in certainly not going to give you a year. But if you remember, Matt, there was one of the lazy kings trying to remember his name off the top. It's the one who in his time, precious stones were like pebbles for the kids of Gondor to play with. Remember Atanatar? I think it was Alcaran. Atanatar. Alkaran the Glorious is what Alkaran means. And he made this fancy jeweled helm that ended up serving as the helm of Gondor for the rest of the time. And that's the one that Tolkien himself drew in a letter where he talked about how it was sort of Egyptian with this tall thing and the jewel at the top and the wings coming out to the side.

[Matt]

That was Atanatar ii.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Tanatar ii. I missed that. I missed the second. Yes, that's okay.

[Matt]

I looked it up. I didn't know it off the top of my head.

[Alan Sisto]

So I remember it from when we went through the. The steward and the king at the end of that episode or at the end of the. That chapter when Aragorn receives the crown. I did a little sidebar on the crown and the history of the crown. But the cop, that's a very interesting one. I never had thought about that perspective and I love that about these words. The crownless again shall be king. Could easily just be the guy who isn't king is going to become king. Right. That's the simple on its face explanation. But wow, I like that deeper cut and it's so Tolkien esque to do that. It kind of makes me think of Glorfindel's prophecy. Not by the hand of man shall he fall like. Well, do you mean by the race of man or by a male.

[Matt]

Yes, yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it.

[Nakat]

Sean allowed me to entertain this as a headcanon and I am doing that now, so.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, I think I will as well. That fits. And it's glorious because I love the reference to Elendil's line because really, in a way, the more you study the appendices, the more you realize how the southern line really kind of lost its way eventually. Yeah, I mean, they really. It's just. It didn't go bad like Numenor, but there were a lot of just not so.

[Matt]

I mean, the kin strife is pretty bad.

[Alan Sisto]

Kin strife's awful.

[Matt]

It gets pretty rough.

[Alan Sisto]

It's really terrible. I mean, you know, but there's just so much there that even before that you've got these lazy kings and Then, yeah, it's a reminder that the Northern Line is not bereft of honor, as bereft of lordship as Denethor accused it of being.

[Matt]

Such a great phrase, though. Bereft of lordship. Like, oh, we don't use bereft enough, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, again, the North Kingdom had its own issues splitting up early, you know, and becoming three splinter kingdoms. I want to know more about that. That's not a question that's on the table for tonight, but I still want to know exactly what the cause of that split was. Those three sons of. I believe it was Erendur, who then, you know, split the kingdom.

[Matt]

I've always imagined it, like, you know, like it had the potential to turn into. If you've ever seen the Kurosawa film, Ron.

[Alan Sisto]

I have not, but I've heard of it.

[Matt]

Okay. I've seen a lot of. Not heads nodding, which is. Which is great, because that is good. There's actually some imagery. Fun fact, Alan. There's some imagery in that that you can pick up in Peter Jackson's films.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, really?

[Matt]

Yeah. Some visual visuals of things like the elves retreating at Helm's Deep is very reminiscent of these soldiers who have, like, these flags on the back. And it's kind of like, okay, the elves with the arrows. So there you go.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm gonna have to watch that. Very good stuff. That was a great question, Akat. Thank you. And I hope we lived up to Sean's answer of it as well. All right, well, Matt, who do we have up next?

[Matt]

Next up, we have Erika Erica.

[Alan Sisto]

Welcome.

[Jenny]

Thank you. My question was more of a thought that hit me one night about the three rings of the Elves and the three silmarillion Simrals. You know, three rings of the elves are fire, water and air. And just how the simmers one went up into the air, one water, and once it's earth, but into fire. Was it intentional that way, or do you think or something. The elves have something about Earth, wind and fire.

[Alan Sisto]

Now I want to sing some Earth, Wind and Fire Heads. Matt, you ready to sing some. Some R B here?

[Matt]

I'm trying to think what songs. I know. I've actually heard of that group before you make any jokes.

[Alan Sisto]

My goodness. My God, I can't think of any.

[Matt]

Of their songs off the top of my head, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. I. I don't even know what to say to you.

[Matt]

Oh, they sing September.

[Alan Sisto]

September, man.

[Matt]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, no, I've heard them. I. I grew up on oldies, actually, a bit, so. But Earth, Wind and Fire wasn't they did Boogie Wonderland.

[Alan Sisto]

They did.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Shining Star.

[Matt]

See, I wasn't into, like, the disco stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

No, neither was I. That was not my genre, but okay.

[Matt]

Sure, I've seen the pictures. I've seen the pictures. Ellen doesn't want people to sit. No, I'm just kidding.

[Alan Sisto]

No, I was. I was definitely more new wave, sort of, you know, mid-80s, early 80s, rather than, you know, sort of that disco era in the 70s. I'm not. Not quite in love for disco, anyway. Earth, Wind and Fire. Earth, Air and Fire. I like that, because I don't think Tolkien was trying to connect it to the band since they weren't around. Matt, that was a pretty obvious connection, don't you think? That's not an accident.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that was absolutely intentional. Yeah. I. I've.

[Alan Sisto]

We have any evidence to support that it's intentional, other than just the fact that Tolkien very rarely did things by accident.

[Matt]

Yeah, I don't. That's what I was just trying to look up, because I've seen that point made online many times, and I think. I think I even brought it up in. In my video on the three Elven Rings. So if it's accidental, it's definitely a happy accident and one that's, you know, very, very fitting.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, I believe that when he was originally working through the rings, one of them was going to be Earth. I can't remember the name of it. And I think that's the one that ended up becoming Air. So I think they were originally Water, Fire and Earth.

[Matt]

Interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, before I give you maybe a deep dive, that might change that up a little bit. Marie, you've got something you want to add?

[Marie]

Yeah, I'm actually. I'm Catholic, and so I do daily mass readings and daily Psalms, and Earth, sea and sky are referenced a lot in the psalms and hymns and things like that. So I think he was definitely steeped in that as well. Not that it was a direct influence.

[Alan Sisto]

But obviously that's, as he would say.

[Marie]

You know, part of the leaf mold.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. Part of the leaf mold of the mind. No doubt about that. Thank you, Marie. I do know that in an early version, Tolkien was looking at different names for the Rings, and those names were Menelaus Ar. And please don't laugh if you've watched the Rings of Power, Kemen. So Menel.

[Matt]

I did not know that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, so Menel, of course, you probably know that name from, like, Menel Tarma or Menel Dil. You know, it's the region of the sky above the atmosphere. It's basically the firmament or the heavens. Right. So it's the sky. So that's going to connect perhaps to the Ring of Air. Then we get ar, which means sea. Right. You know that from Earendil, Earnur, Earwen, all of those. So that's going to be the Ring of Water. It's the Ring of Fire. That changed because the Ring of Fire was not originally imaged. The third name of the Elven Rings, or the name of the third Elven Ring was Kemen, which is a Quenya word meaning earth in the sense of a floor beneath the heavens. And we know that the only other place you can find that root is in Kemintari. It's not a very common element, but that, of course, is one of the other names for Yavanna. And of course, that name means queen of the Earth, Kemintari. So, Earth. So it's interesting that it was originally going to be air, water and Earth, and it became Air, Water and Fire. And I guess, in a way that almost confirms that it is an echo of the Silmarils, because it's that third Silmaril. I mean, one ends up in the sky, right? Arundel. One ends up in the water, hurled in there, or thrown in. Hurled into the ocean, into the great sea. And then the third one goes into the Earth, but it's into fire, it's into a chasm. So it goes either way. And I think that alone, to me at least, would suggest this isn't an accident. What do you think, Matt? Besides the name of Kevin as name of her ring?

[Matt]

Yeah, that is. That is interesting that I did not know that tidbit. Yeah, I think it's. There's a certain poetic nature to that, you know, three Silmarils, three rings forged by Feanor and then forged by Celebrimbor, his grandson.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. It seems. It seems like something that is probably not an accident.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I do like that. He changed the last one from Earth to Fire. And I wonder. There's no evidence to say when exactly he changed it, but I wonder if it was sort of as he got the idea that that ring was going to be used to kindle hearts, and so he changed it from an element of Earth to an element of fire. That would certainly make sense.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's a good question, though, Erica. And definitely, yeah, the connection between the Silmarils and the rings is. Is pretty strong, even though if it isn't explicit. All right, Matt, who do we have up still here in round one?

[Matt]

Next up, we have Jenny.

[Alan Sisto]

Jenny.

[Jenny]

Well, thank you. Yes. From all that interesting stuff, I want to go to something very boring. In fact, the most boring character in the whole of the whole legendarium for me is Celeborn. And I want to know the only interesting thing about him, of course, being the fact that his name is really Teleporno.

[Alan Sisto]

He's so boring that Amazon decided not to include him in their show.

[Jenny]

All right, but my question is, why does Tolkien have him around? I mean, is it because of where Tolkien is socially and where he's writing from? He cannot imagine a ruling queen, Galadriel, without a man at her side, or is that too negative towards Tolkien? Although, of course, he is a product of his time. I think it's Galadriel, in fact, who calls Celeborn the wise. It should be ironic.

[Alan Sisto]

It is a little ironic since we. I mean, he does give us some wisdom, there's no doubt about that.

[Jenny]

But what would you say? His wisdom. The wisdom of Celeborn.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, well, let's talk about Celeborn. Matt, I think it is a fair question to ask. I will say that the idea of ruling queens is certainly something that Tolkien would not have had a problem with. I think we talked about the ruling queens of Numenor, and certainly the implication from Tolkien that Silmarion ought to have been. Had become a ruling queen. We've got those queens, and then we have, you know, other. I'm trying to think that. Do we have any of them that rule on their own? I mean, certainly Melian doesn't rule on her own. She's got Thingol. Luthien has Beren. So, yeah, I mean, it does seem that there's a natural pairing, but that natural pairing also goes the other way. I can't think of any other than Finrod, who is notoriously a bachelor for good reason. I can't think of any kings off the top of my head who don't have a queen. Again, some of them for good reason. I mean, Theoden doesn't have his queen anymore. She died in childbirth, things like that. Right. But you don't see a lot of single men becoming kings and remaining single in Tolkien any more than you would see a ruling queen without a king. So I don't know that that's an element, but she does seem to outshine him. Yeah.

[Matt]

Marie brought up Haleth. You know, Halleth is awesome. Yeah. I love Alith, so she's.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. And certainly she ruled without. Without a husband, for sure.

[Matt]

Yeah, absolutely. So when it comes to Celeborn, I I feel like I have to stick up for Celeborn quite a lot because he gets, I think he gets a bad rap partially because of the movies and because he's overshadowed, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Like, hard to not be overshadowed when you're married to Galadriel. Yeah. Yeah.

[Matt]

When you're married to Galadriel, I actually, I, I like that they're not king and queen, that they're lord and lady. Like it's a, a unadapted and like underappreciated element of their story that Galadriel's whole thing is she wants to like rule her own realm, you know, and have her own kingdom or. Kingdom. Yeah. And then like when it comes time where she could, she doesn't. And she sticks with being them, being lord and lady, you know, like she, she actually has grown enough to where she can make that decision. But yeah, I mean, Kelborn does, does some stuff. It's not like he's not among the great. You know, he's. He's probably not going to be anybody's favorite. Right. But we know, we know who's your.

[Alan Sisto]

Favorite third age elf.

[Matt]

Nobody's going to say, Nobody's, Nobody's gonna say Kelleborn. But you know, that being said, he, he was involved in the, the sack of Eregion. And you know, there was some.

[Alan Sisto]

To be clear, he didn't actually sack Eregion. He was involved in the fight to eventually and then helped Elrond.

[Matt]

I mean, it didn't go well but.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, but he helped lead the refugees out and.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I think, I think he gets a bad rap a lot of times.

[Alan Sisto]

He does a little bit, you know, I think. Ah, the wisdom bit. That is an interesting thing. I mean, he does have some wisdom. He does give some good advice to the company, especially in the books, in the movies. He's very much second fiddle. Oh yeah, really, unfortunately, in a very sad way. But let's not forget that he was also directly involved in leading the forces of the Galadrim across the Anduin and taking Dol Guldur, you know, at the end of the War of the Ring. So, you know, I just feel like he does get sort of a bad rap thanks to the films in many ways.

[Matt]

Yeah. That is one thing I would love to see adapted someday. Or like, whether it's animation or whatever. Like imagine Galadriel and Celeborn fighting side by side against Dogledor. Wouldn't that be how fun that would be?

[Alan Sisto]

That would have been fun. To see. Yeah. 100.

[Matt]

I also like that. Like, not. I don't like it, but it's. It's a nice storytelling. The fact that, you know, the reason he doesn't go with Galadriel DeLorean and Escape Oregan is because he doesn't like dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. It doesn't like. Is a mild way.

[Matt]

It's like, yeah, I'll stick around in a region which is like, if we.

[Alan Sisto]

Could build a toll road over the mountains to where I can avoid the dwarves, I'll pay that toll, but I am not going through there. Yeah, not those stinky dwarves. All right, Marie, you've got something to say on this. And then Jenny as well.

[Marie]

Yeah, I posted it in the chat. But in some ways, Celeborn is the anti Thingol, because he's humble. He's also willing to listen to Galadriel.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marie]

Instead of our poor Cassandra Melian, who nobody listens to.

[Alan Sisto]

And maybe that's why she calls him the wise.

[Marie]

Exactly. And. And he is. He's measured. He's not haughty, other than to the dwarves. But, you know, he. He realizes when, as Jerry points out, that, you know, Galadriel says, hey, well, if ours was an abode of dragons, would not one of us want to come by Lorien? Even if it was so.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Marie]

Yeah. I think.

[Matt]

And he apologizes.

[Alan Sisto]

He does. Which is not something you expect.

[Matt]

He's like, my bad, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. You certainly can't expect that from Thingol. I mean, get away from me, you stunted people. Yeah. And then he just, you know, bleeds to death from shin cuts.

[Marie]

Yeah. So I think he's sort of a. A mirror of what Thingol could have been.

[Alan Sisto]

Thingol. As he should have been.

[Marie]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Really. In a way, you're absolutely right. I love that comparison. Because he does listen to Galadriel. She is wise. And because she's not saying it sarcastically, she's not saying it the way we sort of snidely say it. She means it. So if Galadriel herself says, celeborn is wise, I'm taking that at face value, even if we don't get actual examples of his wisdom. She's known him a long time and can make that claim. All right, Jenny, what do you have to say?

[Jenny]

I just wanted to thank you all. I think those are very important things you all had to say and really rehabilitate Celeborn in my eyes. Thank you. But in terms of the attitude of Middle Earth itself to Lothlorien, it's always the lady in the wood. You know, the magical lady in the wood. And you never hear about the wise elf lord in the wood.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I think it's her magic that terrifies people. I think it is. Yes.

[Jenny]

But that's not to say that he wasn't a wise lord, but that's just not known as that in Middle Earth.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. Yeah. His is not the reputation that spreads abroad. Hers is. Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, that was a good question, Jenny. Matt, we still have a few more in the first round. I think we do.

[Matt]

Next up, I believe, is Diane.

[Alan Sisto]

Diane, welcome back.

[Diane]

It's good to be back.

[Alan Sisto]

Good.

[Diane]

Well, so the other day I was driving and somebody cut me off and I said a few colorful things to the other person, you know, in my head.

[Alan Sisto]

Were they in black speech? Because that's a great language to curse in.

[Diane]

I wish I had a few words for that. But it got me thinking. You know, insults are very culturally kind of grounded. So what kind of insults do you think? Like Hobbits, men. They're here. Dwarves, elves. What would they yell when somebody's like, donkey gets in front of them in line and they're all pissed off?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, Diane, this is going to be fun. I have no idea what the answer is going to be, but wow, we're going to have fun coming up with it, Matt. I guess we could start with Hobbits because I sort of get a feeling, feeling like we might be able to guess on them first. They're. They can be pretty sarcastic and snarky and.

[Matt]

Yeah. See, I always think of. Of the insult that Gimli says in, in the films that he says, is it to Hal Deer, maybe when they. Which is like Ishkui or something.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that you're using actual. Oh, that's great. That.

[Matt]

That's good stuff. It's. It's something like I spit on your grave or some. So it's something to that effect. And then Thorin says a variation of it in the Hobbit films.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

And I think it. It says it has like defecation in it or something like that. I can't remember. Yeah, I. I should try to look it up. But wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, I. I think the elves don't bother with a lot of insults to the other races. They just name them insulting names. I mean, we, the Dwarves of the Nalgrim, the stunted people, we are the aftercomers, the usurpers, the. You know, we're just like. We're nothing, man. So the elves don't need to insult Us, they've already given us the insult by giving us our name, the aftercomers. I mean just, you know, nothing we get is good from the elves. Oh man, so many. I think the dwarves would probably be the most skilled at it I feel.

[Matt]

Yeah, I feel like it's pretty on brand. Okay, so one of the insults that Thorne says in the film is Imrid Amran Ursool which is may you die in dragonfire. So that's pretty good.

[Alan Sisto]

Let's see. Well Gollum just says things like stupid fat Hobbit. I mean so he's pretty simple in his insults. He's not going to get, you know, really, really complicated.

[Matt]

I feel like Gandalf is probably going.

[Alan Sisto]

To be just going to call people fools.

[Matt]

Well yeah, there's that.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah, Dwarves. I just feel like they would do it. I mean I'm thinking of Rings of Power and, and, and the playful relationship between Durin and Elrond and you know he throws some insults his way. You title haired something or other and even Elrond's like what, what was that about what Gimli calls Legolas What a pointy eared Elvish princeling or something like that.

[Matt]

Oh yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But yeah, I think with, with Gandalf he might be the individual master. If dwarves are the master race of insulters, Gandalf would be like the king. I mean I'm trying. My problem is I'm thinking only of ones from the movies. I'm having a real hard time recalling ones from the books. I mean you need people of intelligence on this sort of mission quest thing rules you out, Pip. I mean it's a great line. It's just not from the books. I think hobbit ones might be sophisticated. I think we're all still trying to work out if I don't know half of you half as well as I should like and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. I mean the text even tells us people are trying to work out if it's an insult or not.

[Matt]

Yeah, see I like the some of my favorite, I guess you could call them insults. But are all of Bilbo's gifts that he leaves to people?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh my goodness, those are so sharp. I love that.

[Matt]

So good.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, the mirror. Because she so obviously loves to look in mirrors.

[Matt]

Right? The person who like who sent so many unsolicited letters to him and he gives her a trash can like it's.

[Alan Sisto]

The book sell for the guy who kept borrowing books. Yes, those are brilliant. They're so sharp. I absolutely love it.

[Matt]

And that's part of the reason why Bilbo is my favorite hobbit, by the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Sam's dad the gaffer insults Sam all the time. Right. It calls him a ninny hammer basically questions his value every day. Orcs would be good at it too. What was that one? You may well put your thinking cap on if you've got one. I think it's. I don't remember it. Shagrat says that to Gore Bag. Or Gorebag says that to Shagrat. But it's back in that conversation they have near the. The passive. Cirith Ungol. Yeah, I'm trying to remember. My goodness, this is tough. I'm trying to think. The trolls would have been very good at it. I can't remember what they said. I'm thinking of insults that are more sophisticated like Feanor calling Melkor jail crow of Mandos. Oh, I loved that line.

[Matt]

Get the gone.

[Alan Sisto]

Get the gone now. Jail crow of Mandos. But I mean a lot of his stuff, he didn't insult them to their face because he left them behind. But he calls the rest of the. The rest of his own kin of whom he's supposedly king. Needless baggage on the road. I mean, the guy's got some good ones. What did Theoden say? Gibbets and crows. Right? Oh, Saruman. What is the house of Eorle but a thatched barn where the kids and the dogs roll around in the reek? I mean, or do they drink in the reek and the brats roll on the floor among the dogs or something like that. So yeah, Bilbo insulted the spiders, right? Attercop, I think was basically calling them like a dumb head or something like that or poison head or something. Okay, I remember this one now. I remember there was. Ioreth would not shut up. I love that lady. I do. I love her that she's one of my favorite underrated characters but she wouldn't shut up. And Aragorn's like, if you love Faramir, run as quick as your tongue and get me the king's foil. Oh man, that's some. Some really, really good stuff.

[Matt]

Oh, my favorite, my all time favorite is. Oh, gosh, Aragorn.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, is this first edition Lord of the Rings, is it.

[Matt]

Is it about Butterbur?

[Alan Sisto]

No. Oh, yes. The fat innkeeper who only remembers his name because people shouted at him.

[Matt]

Shouted at him all day. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a great one. One.

[Matt]

It's my favorite. I can't believe I didn't think of that it is my absolute favorite.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Such a good one. I absolutely love that one. That's so. That is so Barlow and Butterbur.

[Matt]

Because he's like. Yeah, because he's. Because he's. He's trash talking Strider. Like not realizing he's in the room.

[Alan Sisto]

He just comes in, just, I'm right here.

[Matt]

Drops the hammer.

[Alan Sisto]

He really does it. Really does. What was. Oh, the Aragorn first edition one that I was. When you mentioned Aragorn, it brought me back to the first edition and there was a line in there where Gimli's pestering Aragorn about the Palantir and communicating somehow with Sauron and he says, what do you want me to tell him? That I have a perfectly serviceable dwarf or. No. That I have a rascally rebel of a dwarf that I would trade for a perfectly serviceable Orc.

[Matt]

Yeah. I mean, forgot about that. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

He's harsh, man. I love it. Oh, Gandalf says something to Legolas when they're in the Pass of Caradhras. Something about basically, if elves could fly you could fly over these mountains and grab the sun. Oh, yeah, like, shut up, man. Help us solve the problem. Oh, there were some really, really good ones.

[Matt]

That's pretty good.

[Alan Sisto]

Those are good run though. I mean, like we're doing better than I thought we would.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, obviously you got fool of a toque and you know, throw yourself in next time and that kind of stuff but I guess Gandalf is just harsh. Oh, oh. What's the one where Gandalf basically puts everyone down? I was talking aloud to myself. Something about how this is what old people do. They. They pick the wisest person around to speak to.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So he was talking to himself. I mean, Gandalf just.

[Matt]

Is that. Is that in the Hobbit or is that in Lord of the Rings?

[Alan Sisto]

I. That sounds like a Hobbit quote if I'm trying to remember it.

[Matt]

It does because I. I remember. So he says a variation of that in the films.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Where he says, because. And I don't think it's the same version as in the, the books, but in the films. He says Bilbo asks him where he's going. He says, to seek the counsel of the. You know, and then.

[Alan Sisto]

But that's in the. I'm trying to remember where it was in the books though. And I'm now all of a sudden, I'm not sure. You've got me. I'm going to have to do a word search in one of my ebooks and see if I could. Wisest person I know for sure is in there. So let me see if I can find that. Oh, it is in Lord of the Rings. It's in chapter five, the White Rider. In one thing you have not changed, dear friend, said Aragorn. You still speak in riddles. What? In riddles? Said Gandalf. No, for I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old. They choose the wisest person present to speak to. The long explanations needed by the young are wearying. I will now remember that for all my co hosts who give me old man jokes. The long explanations needed by the young are wearying indeed.

[Matt]

You'll want to hang on to that for the next few weeks.

[Alan Sisto]

For the. For the next ten weeks. I know. Seriously? Yeah, yeah. There are some good ones. I mean, craven. I can't remember who all calls people craven, but, you know, that's basically, you know, calling people a coward. I know. Fan or calls more. Got that. I think. I think Fin Golfin does. Or maybe it's just when he knocks on the door, he doesn't want to be called Kraven, so he comes.

[Matt]

But there are just Baseborne mortal.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, baseborn mortal. Yes. Thingol. Definitely puts the smackdown on Baron. No doubt about it. Some fun ones. Yeah. I did find one real quickly. I was just glancing, trying to find some and I found one online. That doesn't sound like an insult at first, but it was when Lobelia came to Bag End to show up at the end before Frodo leaves Bag End early before she's supposed to arrive. And we get the short sentence, Frodo did not offer her any tea, which if you know any Englishman is a grave insult. So really, really enjoy that. That was a fun question, Diane. Oh, that was. That was a blast. Yeah. All right, Matt, who do we still have?

[Matt]

Next up, we have Jerry.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, Jerry, welcome back.

[Jerry]

Thank you. So you've mentioned the. The Numenorean law of succession, which Darien changed that. That made it so that the firstborn will automatically become the heir, whether a son or daughter. So considering that that was the law of the land for about 2500 years.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

And since we see in the annals of Arnor, Arthedain and Gondor that there's not a single female ruler, why do you think the realms in exile did not continue with that legal tradition when they became the realms in exile?

[Alan Sisto]

That is a very. That's a very good question. It's actually something that I recently talked about in an episode that you will not have heard yet because it has not been released. But when we were talking about specifically Arved, we claim to the throne, right? One of his claims was, you know, not only am I an heir of Isildur, but I am married to the daughter of the only surviving child of On Deher because On Deher and his sons were killed in battle with the Wainriders. And their response is that we only draw the line through the men. Now, Arved, we argues that, but we never get Gondor's response. We never, you know, our Vedwi makes that claim based on those two reasons. And the claim was rejected. And the council said that the crown and royalty of Gondor belong solely to the heirs of Meneldil. So their saying basically doesn't matter that you're the son of Isildur or a descendant of Isildur. That's really irrelevant. And then in Gondor, this heritage is reckoned through, the sons only. And we have not heard that the law is otherwise in Arnor. Now, Arvedwi says something here that doesn't tell us the why, but it certainly confirms what you suggested in your question. You know, he says that we've heard the name of Elendil stands to this day at the head of the lines of kings. So he's trying to make the argument that, you know, a son of Isildur is at least as valid as a son of Anarion. But then he says, moreover, in Numenor of old, the scepter descended to the eldest child of the king. So there's the reference to the strict primogeniture law that the eldest child would get it, whether man or woman. Then he writes this. It is true that the law has not been observed in the lands of exile, ever troubled by war. But such was the law of our people to which we now refer seeing that the sons of Ondaher died childless. So somehow, some way, for some reason, both realms in exile seemed not to follow that. Matt, do we want to hazard a guess as to why? Could it have just been that Elendil had the two sons? I mean, if he'd had an elder daughter, maybe one of those becomes a ruling queen of either Arnor or Gondor. But they just held with what they had. What do you think? And then, Jerry, we'll come back to you and see what you think as well.

[Matt]

Yeah, I have no idea. We're in pure speculation mode here.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah. I mean, that kind of is what this is, because we're never given a reason. We're hinted at One Arved, we says, ever troubled by war.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And remember Numenor being an island kingdom, not being under siege, under attack, would. Would not have had to have, shall we say, warrior kings, while both Gondor and Arnor would have needed warrior kings.

[Matt]

Yeah. So could it be a warrior king kind of thing?

[Alan Sisto]

Like, that's kind of what I'm thinking.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, the minute they show up, they're under. They're on hostile territory. Right. I mean, they show up and they're immediately under attack by Sauron and they form the alliance with Gilgalad, they defeat Sauron. Okay, now what? But they're still having to subdue and maintain their boundaries, their borders. There's already going to be conflict with the. With Umbar, with. Up north, with. Well, with the. The Wild Men that end up being. Taking over Rudaur because that's the first of those three splinter kingdoms to fall, and we find out there's wild Men that are allied with Angmar. So. Yeah, I mean, I tend to think that if there is. If there is a reason, that reason would be a tendency to have a desire for warrior kings for those who could lead men in battle. Not that the women couldn't, but they were not proven to do so. And I think the default at that point is to. To fall sort of that. To tradition, even if it's not historically speaking. Yeah, right, exactly. Of course, that's something that Tolkien would have been familiar with too. I mean, just, you know, male preference. Primogeniture would have been something that he would have been familiar with historically, not just in his own culture, but in all the cultures that he studied. So, Jerry, what do you have to say?

[Jerry]

Well, it just occurred to me, I wonder if it has anything to do with them being descendants of the Lords of Andunier, whom we don't have any evidence there. Is that tradition.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. That makes sense.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good. A good possibility as well. I mean, the Lords of Andunier, we don't. I'm trying to think whether there's any evidence that they. That that line went through the women in any way other than with the beginning, with Silmarion, the start.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Jerry]

I believe it does say at some point that the Lords of Andunie have always been a close counselor to the king. It's not lords or ladies.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. All right. So looking it up, of course we don't get a list of all the names of the Lords of Andunie. We get Valandil the First, who is, of course, Somarion's son. But we don't get another one until we get to Earendor, who is the 15th. And then we also don't know the 16th. But then it's Newmandil and then Amandil, who disappeared, you know, sailing west trying to pull a Arendelle. But. But not quite. Not quite getting that opportunity.

[Matt]

Couldn't do it.

[Alan Sisto]

And then we get Elendil himself. So, yeah, it does seem like it's a Lordship, therefore it's going to be descended to, you know, the eldest son. That would make sense then. That would make sense because they're all going to be descended from that line. So maybe a combination of that plus the hint given to us by Arvedwi about the times of war. Yeah, that's interesting because you're right. I mean, Numenor had that law for so long, we wondered about that as well. Don and I were talking about that. It seems so odd that they would just dismiss arvedui's claim. But of course, they never even got back to him on that. That was arvedui saying, per my last email, you know, I still have the validity of this claim. You know, it needs to be appealed.

[Matt]

Ghosty.

[Alan Sisto]

And then they just. They ghosted him. They just. They put him on Reed man. So that was, of course, Palendur, the steward at the time. Interestingly, total sidebar we read in. And now I'm not going to be able to remember exactly where we read it. I think it's in one of the drafts of the section on the stewards that not only do they harden their hearts, but they basically decided from that time on that they were not going to accept the claim of anybody from the line of Isildur. Flat out, they were going to rule Gondor as kings. You know, just without that title. Like, they. They locked it in, you know, once it was a hereditary title, once it. It became part of the house of. Of Hurin, of Emin Arnen. But anyway, listen to earlier episodes for that, because it's funny we're recording this now, but those episodes are. Will be out by the time this is out, but are not out by the time we're recording this. All right, that craziness aside, let's go ahead and take a second break. We'll come back and see what we have for a second round. Folks, if you enjoy the show, please consider supporting the PPP by joining the Fellowship of the podcast. It's what gives me the ability to work on making this show better every year and hopefully better every episode. When you join you get the best Discord community around, and that includes live episode recordings and hangouts every month. You also get episode post scripts, ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Matt]

You also can become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. All right, Matt, who do we have for the second round?

[Matt]

We've got Sam leading things off.

[Alan Sisto]

Sam, welcome back.

[Sam]

Long time no talk.

[Alan Sisto]

All at 20 minutes. What do you got?

[Sam]

So, I don't know if you guys have talked about it on some of the unreleased episodes yet, but have you guys speculated at all about the recently announced other Lord of the Rings movie that they're going to be working on besides the Hunt for Gollum?

[Alan Sisto]

No, we really haven't. Primarily because we know so little of it, but, boy, this is a perfect chance to do that. Matt, what are you thinking they're going to cover? Do we have any actual clues other than possibly Gandalf would be involved because Ian McKellen's been approached to do two films?

[Matt]

No. That's literally the only clue that we have. That's kind of what I thought. Ian McKellen would be involved. So we have about 2,000 years of history to deal with. Somewhere in those 2,000 years, somewhere between.

[Alan Sisto]

Third age 1,000 and the end of the third age, Gandalf's involved.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I can tell you right now what story I would love to see. And that is the story of Thorongil. I would really love to see his adventures in Rohan and Gondor, the early stages of the rivalry with a young Denethor.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Amazing. The defeat of Corsairs. You know, going and leading that raid.

[Matt]

Having a sea battle would be amazing, wouldn't it? Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And meeting a young Arwen, well, she'd still be old.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

But a youngish Arwen.

[Matt]

No, there. And there's part of me that hopes that, like, that's an element of Hunt for Gollum, honestly.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I do, too. Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, I don't think Hunt for Gollum is necessarily the. Because they're. They're still writing the story, like coming up with the story. Yeah, I don't know if that's like a lock for. That's the only focus of that film. I. I would 100 be in favor of, like, you know what? Let's make this a young Aragorn film.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I think Theron Gill would be. Would be exciting. And of course, you could lead in with a. Actually young Aragorn like him as a child, you know. Oh, yeah, all of that. That'd be fantastic.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah. Oh, that'd be awesome, man. It would have to be bigger probably than a single film. But, man, I. I would love Angmar War at some point.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, but would Gandalf be involved? I mean, that's the thing, at least.

[Matt]

No, yeah, that's, you know, that's the.

[Alan Sisto]

Thing, like with Gandalf and the Thorongil story. Because Denethor thinks they're plotting against him. Right.

[Matt]

And it would. Yeah, like, Hunt for Gollum makes sense because Gandalf sets him on that journey.

[Alan Sisto]

War in the north would be glorious, I admit.

[Matt]

Yes. I think War in the north is.

[Alan Sisto]

Is probably watching the arrival of Gondor and the fight and Glorfindel and the char. Oh, that would be good, good stuff. I mean, there are other things that I want to see covered, but. For example, the story of the Kin Strife would be a fantastic film. But Gandalf's not involved, so that won't.

[Matt]

Yeah, no, I'm just trying to think.

[Alan Sisto]

Of anything that Gandalf was involved in.

[Matt]

Anything else. I think it's the only other things that I can come up with all involve him is just like a cameo, honestly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. What about any of the White Council stuff? I mean, it's really. Aside from their decision to attack Dol Guldur, there's not a lot of action.

[Matt]

Yeah, they kind of covered that.

[Alan Sisto]

Covered that.

[Matt]

I tell you what I would really like to see is a War in the north film.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, more in the north would be good.

[Matt]

Like with Erebor and with Lorien and Dol Guldor, like.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, oh, not in the North. North. Not Ang.

[Matt]

No, no, no, not. Not Angmar war. I'm talking.

[Alan Sisto]

So you're talking about like, End of the Third Age, Gadriel and Kilborn leading the Galadhrim against.

[Matt]

Yeah, like I was talking about earlier. Yeah. Of them leading an attack and like the Dwarves and the Men of Dale.

[Alan Sisto]

And Dan standing at the gate defending him in his last breath. Oh, that would be glorious, wouldn't it? That was.

[Matt]

And it would tie. Like, the interesting thing is it ties to the existing films, like, you know, obviously the timeline of Lord of the Rings. But, like, we met a lot of those characters that are involved in the story in the Hobbit. Movies, so.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, true.

[Matt]

They could. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You could even bring Thranduil in somehow. You could have. Because. Remember that? Because Celeborn meets with. With Thranduil talking about Aaron Lascal and talking about, you know, changing the name of Mirkwood and all of that.

[Matt]

Yeah. Galadriel tears down Dol Guldur.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Essentially at the end with her magic.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, which is very Luthien. Right. I mean.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah. It's very tolling. Galroth.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, could you imagine Cate Blanchett doing that? Like, how legit.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be Nuclear Galadriel Unleashed.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. That would be fantastic. I agree. That would be a really, really good story. Yeah, it's an interesting one. I mean, you could have maybe early days in the Shire with Gandalf and, you know, the establishment of the Shire and Gandalf coming and, you know, kind of starting relationships there, and we could see some early Shire stuff. But that would have to be like a side plot because there's not a lot of story there.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Unless you wanted to do a whole movie about the unit of Special Forces archers that they sent to the battle in Angmar. And we just followed them the entire time. And it's sort of like the Dirty Dozen. But they're hobbits.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that could be a really fun movie.

[Matt]

Yeah. Or a show. It's like a Band of Brothers miniseries, but it's hobbits traipsing through areas.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course. Actually, in my opinion, never made it to the battle. They stopped in Brie for some drinks and never went home. Like, I don't want to go die against the Witch King.

[Matt]

They told everybody when they got back, like, oh, yeah, it was epic, man. You wouldn't believe.

[Alan Sisto]

You should have seen it, man. We shot at that Witch King guy. Yeah. He couldn't miss him. He was seven foot tall. Oh, yeah, that. That. That would be a fun story. But no, I. I'd like to think that the most likely thing is the Young Aragorn story. There's been a lot of buzz on that. I remember even when Aragorn. When Aragorn. When Amazon first got the rights to make a TV show, there was a lot of speculation it would be a Young Aragorn series.

[Matt]

Allegedly, that was one of the pitches that they heard was.

[Alan Sisto]

Which they rejected.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Kind of glad they did. I mean, I may not be a huge fan of everything they put together in the show that they've got, but I'm glad they didn't sort of tread more familiar ground. Yeah, kudos to them at least for trying that.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's true. At least they.

[Alan Sisto]

We'll discuss more of that on the Rings of Power wrap up show.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, Matt, we've got time for a few more here in the second round.

[Matt]

Okay, we've got Marie next.

[Alan Sisto]

Marie.

[Marie]

Okay, so this should be a fairly easy one. How much do you think the Elf Stone helped Aragorn in the Houses of Healing?

[Alan Sisto]

Ooh, quite a bit. I mean, it had some power, right? I mean, that's. That's the whole point of the Elessar.

[Matt]

Well, I think this depends too, on, like, is there one Elf Stone or are there two?

[Alan Sisto]

Well, that's the thing, right? We do have multiple versions, right? We do have the idea of the. The original one, the one that I sort of think of as the more likely story, is that it was made in Gondolin by either Celebrimbor or by that other Jewel Smith whose name escapes me. And. And that, you know, eventually it was given to Idril, saved from the fall of Gondolin. She passed it to Earendel, and that's where he used it to heal men and elves and even beasts that lived there, if I remember correctly. And then he carried it with him over to Valinor and then it was apparently sent back with Gandalf. He brought it back.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's kind of a. I kind of like that version. That's fun.

[Alan Sisto]

And so he gave it to Galadriel and said, basically, you're only going to get to hold this for a little while before you pass it to somebody else, and then that'll also be his name. So I love that story a lot more than the idea that Celebrimbor had some mad crush on Galadriel and remade a second version of it. I don't. I'm not a big fan of that one, but either way, even that one, it had less power than the original, but it didn't have no power, right? Oh, yeah. These things definitely, you know, whether we're talking about the original or the. The copy, if there ever was a copy, whatever the origins, it had some. Some definite power combined with. I mean, again, maybe if I'm going to draw a parallel, I'm going to draw a parallel to the Elven rings and how they simply enhanced existing abilities already and they serve as an amplifier of whatever. Right. Even the one ring serves as a massive amplifier. If you're a bad guy, it turns you into a really, really horrible guy. Sadly, it doesn't turn good into better. But it amplifies the bad, but the Elven rings amplify the good. Good. And I think the analogy can be drawn that the Elf Stone just simply amplifies Aragorn's natural healing abilities because of his descent from the line of Luthien. I mean, that would be my like way of thinking about it. I don't know that there's an answer to it. That's the only challenge. What do you think, Matt?

[Matt]

It's interesting, you know, because we do get the, the hands of the king or the hands of the healer. So there, there's. And we see Aragorn prior to, to getting the Elf Stone, that he's got abilities in that. Yeah, yeah, he's got some skill there. Right. So yeah, I think, I think I'd co sign on that that it, that it enhances and you know, it probably came in handy when dealing with the Black Breath.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense that it would have made maybe given him the ability to do, to do more healing than he would have otherwise.

[Matt]

Maybe it helped cut down the rehab time. You know, maybe. Yeah, maybe they didn't have to spend as long in the house the healing if they. As they would have otherwise.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, he didn't use the Elfstone on you. You're going to be here like a month.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, you're, you're in here.

[Alan Sisto]

It's going to be a long recovery. Yeah, possibly. I also think there's an element of prophecy in there, right? I mean, that is his name. The Elf Stone is his name. And it's also part of his very identity as a healer. Because of course, Gondor hasn't had a Healing King in, you know, a thousand years. Not that we, by the way, interestingly enough, ever get a description or a story of any of the kings of Gondor being healers. We never read about that. Even through the whole line of kings, there's never a mention of any of them being healers. But of course, they are all descended from Luthien, just as Aragorn is. So they would theoretically have that ability. Marie.

[Marie]

The hands of the king are hands of a healer, obviously is a throwback to that medieval concept that the healing touch of the king. But my, my sense was the Elf Stone was more about renewing the environment and not so much about healing people because it's described as sunlight through green leaves.

[Alan Sisto]

That is how Galadriel used it, certainly. Huh. And that's. There's some possibility there too. I mean, I was thinking of how it was originally used at the mouths of Sirion where it was used to heal people. And that was sort of my thinking, but that's a very good point because Galadriel used it more in the way of healing and preserving the environment, a thing that Aragorn then set out to do as well. So it might have served a dual purpose in that regard. The ability to do both.

[Matt]

Yeah. Cause I think it's in Unfinished Tales, isn't it, where it's used to heal.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, it's Unfinished Tales, the story about him receiving it from his mother, Idril, and using it to heal people at the mouths of Sirion. I love that story because of the totally unrelated to the question sidebar of the tradition we get from the laws and customs of the Eldar that the mother of the bride gives a gift to the groom. And that, of course, with Celebrian being gone and not being able to give Aragorn a gift, this gift from Galadriel not only fulfills prophecy, but fulfills that role of. Of a wedding gift. It's fantastic. I mean, it's one of those super deep cuts that if you don't know about that, nothing in the movies or even the Lord of the Rings text will give you that clue. You just have to know that little bit from Laws and Customs, the Eldar, and it's like, oh, that's cool. But that's one of those things that Tolkien does. He just ties in all these deep things and weaves it all together just masterfully. So. Good question. All right, Matt, I think we have time for maybe two more. Who do we have up next?

[Matt]

We've got Jerry up next.

[Alan Sisto]

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry, what do you got?

[Jerry]

All right, well, I. I read something on social media today, a theory I hadn't heard of before, and I don't necessarily believe it, but I wanted to hear your take. I think it's pretty interesting. So, at the end of the Second Age, with the downfall of Numenor, when Iluvatar reshaped the world, made it into a sphere. Their theory was that everyone experiences the world as a sphere except elves, who still experience it flat. Hence the straight way to Valinor. But the only thing I can think of in support of that is that would solve Legolas.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Ability. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are your. Elf. I see. Well, my elf eyes can actually see around the sphere. No, the world is still spherical, and it's spherical for all who live on it. So I. I can't subscribe to that. What I can subscribe to is the straight way that they have now the ability. The elves do that. When they choose to sail west to Valinor, they are somehow able to leave the surface of the ocean and, and sail into the sky and breathe in vacuum until they arrive to Valinor. It's a crazy thing, but I can certainly allow for that to be a sort of a one time, you know, special little passage for the Elves, you know, when they. When they sail west rather than somehow all the elves experience the Earth in a completely different way.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, but then you get Schrodinger's world, right? Is it flat? Is it a sphere? We don't know. Some sort of, you know, quantum string, something or other? That's a good question, though, Jerry. But yeah, I'm not going to buy that. All right, I think we definitely have time for a couple more, Matt.

[Matt]

All right, next up, we have Diane.

[Alan Sisto]

Diane. All right, you gave us the chance to jump on some insults before. What incredible fun are you going to give us now?

[Diane]

Okay, so I'm thinking it was a very long walk, you know, from Rivendell down to, to mortar or taunt. And the hobbits are about half the size of men. So did they have to run the whole way to keep up with the men?

[Alan Sisto]

I would imagine they walked at a slightly increased pace and the men probably walked a little slower to let them keep up. Gandalf would have already been used to that Strider, certainly in the time where he was leading the Hobbits from Bree all the way to Rivendell. Though in fairness, their pace changed after Frodo got hurt and, you know, they had to put him on the pony. Yeah, that's a very. I mean, I can see them walking kind of quickly, but they would have. The rest of them would have had to slow down. They're not going to be like the three hunters. Can you imagine if you had the three hunters, but one of them was a hobbit? That would be bad.

[Matt]

Oh, gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Little sprinting guy, like a cartoon.

[Matt]

I will say this, this question does remind me of just how meticulous Tolkien was about distances.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness. So meticulous.

[Matt]

And he, he like actually planned it out by strides, like by steps of the different races.

[Alan Sisto]

We both saw that same exact document.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And in the, in the museum at Marquette. Bodleian.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, I was thinking. Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we saw the one at the Bodleian that had the strides.

[Matt]

Oh, was it Okay. I was thinking it was the one we were at Marquette for the.

[Alan Sisto]

It might been both, because I know they brought a lot of. A lot of documents over from the Bodleian for that as well.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it's. It's certainly a fun thing to think about. I'm hearing this sort of cartoon. I gotta find that sound effect somewhere. But also, you know, you're just picturing Sonic the Hedgehog or, you know now. Well, of course it's gotta be Sonic because of the Rings. That's gotta be what it's going to be like. Yeah, I just. That's terrible. I'm sorry, Matt. Who's next? We can't end on that one.

[Matt]

Next up, next up, we got Nakat.

[Alan Sisto]

Nakat. Welcome back.

[Nakat]

So I have another one from Lord of the Rings. It is. I'm going to read out just a couple of sentences here. But the enemy has the move and he's about to open his full game. And the pawns are likely to see much of it as any peregrine son of a paladin. So dead hobbits know how to play chess?

[Alan Sisto]

That is such a good question. Yeah. I remember thinking that felt like one of those things that didn't fit. It's a very interesting thing. Oh, man. There are a lot of those anachronisms in.

[Matt]

I mean, they know how to play golf. They know how to play golf.

[Alan Sisto]

They know how to play golf.

[Matt]

Why not chess? You know, we.

[Alan Sisto]

We know that there are other things along those lines. I'm trying to think of some of the other things that might come up.

[Nakat]

I just want. I just want to add into it that my husband and I, we were watching the movies again and in the very beginning and he spotted it because he's a chess nerd. So I'm just showing you the picture over here. These two hobbits in the beginning playing.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, they are playing some sort of board game. It looks like chess.

[Nakat]

Yes, it does look a little bit like chess. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So for folks listening in, because, of course, the show is audio, we are able to see our guests on Questions After Nightfall. We just don't record all of our faces for your benefit, folks. And she's showing us a screenshot from the film in one of the pubs there in the Shire. And yeah, they are playing a game that looks very much like chess. I did find something out that I did not know. I found it out just now as I was researching this. In an early phase of the Hobbit, the Battle of the Green Fields where the Goblin King was called Fingolfin, golf wasn't the only thing invented. Chess was invented because the Battle was won by Checkmate. Now that was removed because it was an over the top philologist's joke because Checkmate comes from Persian Shamat, meaning the king is dead and they killed the Goblin King. So it was won by Checkmate. And that's just too many layers for a book that's designed to be for kids, I think. But that is so cool. The reference to chess was removed in the second phase when it was changed to just the Battle of the Green Fields. Earlier it was the Battle of the Green Fields of Felen. So that's all I've got. It to me seems like one of those references like, kind of like tobacco, you know, I mean, yeah, they call it pipe weed, but they also call it tobacco at several points. So which is it? And of course, we know that pipe weed is Nicotiana. I mean, Tolkien makes that pretty clear in the prologue, right? But it is sort of a thing that doesn't really fit. But I love it because chess is a fantastic game played across so many cultures, across so many centuries. Why not think that they had a game equivalent to that? I mean, I think that the thing that comes to mind is maybe a fix is the reality that Tolkien was translating all of this, right? Tolkien was translating these things. You know, Frodo's name was. What was it again, Matt? Maori Labingi or something like that, Those Hobbit names, those actual Hobbit names, the actual Westeron that then got translated into English. So here Tolkien is translating whatever Westron tabletop game Tolkien is referring to or Gandalf is referring to. He translates it for us as chess.

[Matt]

And talks about Frodo is Maura.

[Alan Sisto]

Maura Labingi. That's right, yeah. I mean, there's just some wild names and words that are in Westeron. Carningoul is the name of Rivendell. I'm so glad he didn't stick with Karningoul. That just doesn't roll off the tongue like Rivendell. And it's because what he's trying to do is translate those names into something that linguistically fits with us, which is why the Rohirric words are Old English. The. And better than that, the Northman's names before that were. Were Gothic, which I just, I love that because the connection between Gothic and Old English and then Modern English is the same connection between the Northman and the Rohirrim. And you know, what we read in the text is fantastic. So that's maybe the saving thing right there is maybe Tolkien was just translating the name of Some one versus one board game with, you know, it could have been the equivalent of Go. It could have been the equivalent of. I mean anything really. Because cultures would have had some sort of game that we could analogize to chess. So maybe that's it. The only thing I could think of, Matt.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's. That's as good a guess as I can come up with.

[Alan Sisto]

So. Well, I think we do have time for one last one before we go. Who do we have up next?

[Matt]

Next we have Lewis.

[Alan Sisto]

Lewis, you just ducked in under the wire. What do you have?

[Lewis]

Oh boy. Now I'm not sure if it's a light hearted one in the night on, but I was thinking about in our, in our conversation about the Valar, about how the Valar are not quite omnipotent, they're not quite omniscient. And I was thinking about them in terms, you know, comparing them to the elves and men, the firstborn and second born. And so I was wondering if we could actually call the Valar the zeroth born sort of, you know, you know, Eruse, like first. Like okay, here, here are these, here are these beings to put into the world. And they're learning, they're making mistakes and they're, they're, they're doing well. Sometimes they make mistakes, sometimes they turn evil sometimes. And so I'm just thinking about what do you think about that as sort of the Valar as almost a third type of race that ERU creates.

[Alan Sisto]

I certainly, I mean they fit in a hierarchy in the sense that they are to the elves what the elves are to men in many ways. I mean even to the extent of just as. As men who marry Elves are deemed to have married up. Whether we're talking about Baron marrying Luthien or Aragorn marrying Arwen. It's the same thing with Thingol and Melian. Now she's not a Vala, but she is a Maya. And that's the same sort of type of being in the sense that they are creatures of Iluvatar's thought so.

[Matt]

Which makes it all the more ridiculous that he doesn't listen to her more often.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Seriously. Eternal being. Been around since the beginning of the beginning. Actually before that, you know, time I'm older than that. It's. Yeah. Literally I came from Eru's brain. You should listen to me, man. Yeah, I hadn't even thought of that. Matt. That's really a good point. Yeah. I feel like that's certainly a fair analogy to make. I like that step. And of course they Are, like you pointed out, they are still learning. They are not perfect in their knowledge. We read that in the Silmarillion. I'd have to pull up the actual text, but there's no indication that they are all powerful, all knowledgeable, and the evidence points very clearly to the fact that they don't always make the wisest decisions. I mean, certainly with the benefit of hindsight, I don't think they would have even invited the Eldar to come over. You know, that's not really the thing that worked out. So, yeah, I do like them as sort of an imperfect example that the elves can sort of look up to, to. I mean, they'll never have those powers, but just like men will never have the power of immortality. So, yeah, I like that. The, the Valar are a really interesting set of, of characters. I, I, I feel like folks who haven't dabbled in the Silmarillion are missing out because the stories there are really fantastic. I mean, if you like all the old stories about the Greek gods and the Roman gods, you get some of the same thing here, minus the petty jealousy.

[Matt]

Yes. All the cringeworthy things that, you know, those gods get up to, like, I.

[Alan Sisto]

Mean, with the exception of Melkor, of course, but, you know.

[Matt]

Well, yeah, but I mean, there's always.

[Alan Sisto]

Got to be a Satan. Somebody's got to be the devil, you.

[Matt]

Know, but like, you know, in, in like, Greek mythology, where it's like how, how many characters are the result of, like, some God coming down and. Yeah. Having relations. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Having his way, sometimes not so willing either. Yeah, right.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it's like, ah, yeah, Tolkien does us a solid and doesn't use any of that elements.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, that's a fair point. Yeah. They're definitely lacking in knowledge. I love how, though, when they team together, they're stronger. Right. With Manwe and Varda, for instance, their powers, when they're combined. Right. When Manwe there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist and through darkness and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwe is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west. So, you know, we do see oftentimes that their powers are great. They are seriously great powers, but they're even greater in combination. And now I'm picturing them doing Wonder Twins activate form of. Yeah, it's, I don't know why the most random stuff pops in my head, but it does and sometimes it's entertaining. Hopefully this time. But we are finally running out of time for tonight. So, folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Thankfully, I'm sure some of you are saying at this point, but please be sure to join me and Matt again next week as we open up Appendix A again, this time to visit the house of aorl.

[Matt]

Yeah, I am super pumped. I love the Rohirrim. They have like some of the best moments, don't they?

[Alan Sisto]

I'm so looking. I mean, helm the killing of Scott of the Worm. I mean, there's so many great things coming up. Yeah.

[Matt]

And fantastic. The horn that passes down to Mary from that good stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Well, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team ppp. As always, Editor Jordan Rannells. Sorry, Jordan, I'm just gonna say that I'm not. This isn't even a mistake per se, but just sorry, Jordan, that you have to put up with me again. Barlowman Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And please take a minute to check out the prancingpony podcast dot com. That's where you'll find our show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, our online storefront where you can get PPP merchandise, including the all new art for Megan.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link to it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Kir Dan's contribution tier, some of whom are here. We start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Karen in the uk, June in Ireland, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, and Keith in Alabama.

[Matt]

There's also Erica in Texas, Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julian Washington, Bruce in California, and Joe in Maryland. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[Alan Sisto]

Indeed. Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, the best insults from Tolkien's legendarium to Barliman at the branchingponypodcast.com and if you want.

[Matt]

To make your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question, visit pod inbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to barliman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, even though barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there's still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, this is the end.

[Matt]

We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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