353 – They Should’ve Known

Summary

Episode Summary: "They Should’ve Known" – The Prancing Pony Podcast

Episode Details:

• Podcast: The Prancing Pony Podcast
• Episode: 353 – They Should’ve Known
• Release Date: January 5, 2025
• Hosts: Alan Sisto and Matt E. Marchese

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In Episode 353, titled "They Should’ve Known," hosts Alan Sisto and Matt E. Marchese delve into the recent anime adaptation of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth lore, specifically focusing on the film "War of the Rohirrim." Balancing their deep appreciation for Tolkien's work with their insightful critiques, Alan and Matt provide listeners with a comprehensive review of the film's strengths and areas for improvement.

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2. Choosing Anime as the Medium

Alan: "I don't think we have. No." ([03:15])
The hosts begin by discussing the decision to adapt a Tolkien story into an anime format. Matt expresses his limited experience with anime, mentioning classics like "Akira" and "Studio Ghibli" films, while Alan acknowledges his own brief encounters with the medium. They recognize that anime offers unique storytelling tools that live-action might not capture as effectively.

Matt: "There’s such a tradition of live action now." ([07:53])
Despite their reservations, both agree that anime can bring fresh perspectives to familiar tales, allowing for expressive visuals and dynamic storytelling.

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3. Visuals and Sound Design

Alan: "I like the visuals in the style that they." ([04:26])
Alan praises the striking visual style of the anime, noting how the characters remain vivid in his mind well after viewing. The hosts commend the film's sound design, highlighting the use of iconic musical themes from the Lord of the Rings, which enhances immersion.

Matt: "This sound design is one of the things that I have been raving about." ([15:12])
Matt emphasizes the film's exceptional sound quality, comparing it favorably to major animated studios and appreciating how it faithfully recreates the auditory essence of Middle-earth.

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4. Casting and Voice Acting

Alan: "Brian Cox, who does Helm Hammerhand and absolutely flipping owns." ([22:19])
The duo lauds the voice acting, particularly Brian Cox's portrayal of Helm Hammerhand, which they describe as spot-on and impactful. They also highlight Miranda Otto’s role as the narrator, appreciating how her presence ties the adaptation back to the beloved live-action films.

Matt: "You should be." ([23:36])
Their admiration extends to other voice actors, with a special mention of Lorraine Ashbourne’s performance as Olwen, whom they view as a strong and capable character.

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5. Plot and Storyline Adaptations

While the film stays true to many aspects of Tolkien's lore, the hosts note several additions and alterations that fill in gaps or expand on existing narratives.

Alan: "And though they do love our deep dives into the lore..." ([02:37])
They discuss how the story introduces new elements, such as Saruman's influence over Rohan and the use of the Palantir, which are incorporated to enrich the plot and provide deeper context.

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6. Specific Scenes and Critiques

Watcher in the Water Scene: Matt: "I feel like they don't need to have the Watcher." ([05:25])
One of the primary critiques revolves around the Watcher in the Water scene, which Matt felt was unnecessary and took away from the narrative flow. Alan echoes this sentiment, finding the scene surreal and out of place even within an anime context.

Helm’s Battle with the Snow Troll: Matt: "I really like that big moment." ([16:43])
Conversely, the hosts appreciate the snow troll battle scene, acknowledging that while unrealistic for live-action, it leverages the strengths of animation to deliver exciting action.

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7. Musical Themes and Consistency

The film successfully integrates established musical themes from the original Lord of the Rings into its score, maintaining an inner consistency of reality that honors the source material without over-relying on nostalgia.

Alan: "They used sort of the nostalgia of the Lord of the Rings film very early to get you invested." ([12:35])
Both hosts commend how the score enhances the storytelling, using familiar motifs to draw viewers into the world of Rohan effectively.

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8. Ratings and Final Thoughts

After balancing their praises with critiques, both Alan and Matt agree on a solid rating of 8 out of 10.

Alan: "I’m giving this an 8 maybe out of 10." ([54:06])
Matt: "I feel like I went with eight because I was like, I will give this a solid, enthusiastic 8 out of 10." ([54:15])

They appreciate the film’s storytelling sensibility, the integration of Rohan’s lore, and the honorable performances by the voice cast, despite minor missteps in certain scenes and plot divergences.

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9. Conclusion and Future Directions

Wrapping up the episode, Alan and Matt express their confidence in future adaptations, anticipating continued growth and faithful storytelling in upcoming projects. They encourage listeners to support the podcast through various platforms and remain engaged with the vibrant community surrounding their discussions on Tolkien’s works.

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Notable Quotes:

• Alan: "But darlin’, he knew that she was no man, but still he respected her bravery." ([25:35])
• Matt: "Eowyn was slender and tall, with a grace and pride that came to her out of the south..." ([95:22])
• Alan: "He builds up Isengard for his own power, much like Saruman intended." ([16:20])

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Final Rating:

8 out of 10 – A commendable adaptation that honors Tolkien’s legacy while exploring the creative potentials of the anime medium.

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This episode offers both seasoned Tolkien enthusiasts and newcomers alike a thoughtful examination of "War of the Rohirrim," highlighting its achievements and areas for improvement through the engaging lens of The Prancing Pony Podcast hosts.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

What's the best time of day to get a deal? All day with Jack in the box's all day big deal meal.

[Matt]

You get to choose from four entrees like the supreme croissant and five tasty sides, plus a drink starting at $5. So hurry in or take your time. You've got all day at Jack. Every bite's a big deal.

[Alan Sisto]

Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 353 of the Prancing Pony Podcast, where I have appeared, bringing gifts and speaking great praise of the Valor of the Nerd of the Rings.

[Matt]

Great. Here are the keys to my house, folks. Pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the Nerd of the Rings, and I'm here with the man of the west who has begun to behave as a lord of Men, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, Matt, I have checked all around your place and I still can't find that palantir. Where'd you hide it?

[Matt]

It's very, very secret and safe.

[Alan Sisto]

Is it very, very safe? Yeah. Okay. Yes, folks, join us as we enjoy an unexpected episode as we continue our time in Appendix A2 in the House of EORL.

[Matt]

Folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome. Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, we do love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but we.

[Matt]

Try to keep it light and fun, like a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us, and.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to talk about a little project we commissioned to go along with our podcast episodes in the House of eorl. You might have heard of it. It's called the War of the Ro. Folks, join us as we dive into the movie, as we talk about everything from the choice of doing it as an anime to the plot and the characters and the music and everything. It's going to be a fun time.

[Matt]

Yeah, absolutely. Folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome. Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

And though we do love our deep dives into the lore and discussing our favorite themes, tonight isn't about that. We're not going to be talking too much about the books that we will reference them. We're going to be talking about the movie.

[Matt]

Yeah. But of course, no matter if we're talking about books or movies or what have you, we try to keep it light and fun like a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us and.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But fair warning, before we continue, there will be spoilers if you have not seen the film yet. This is not going to be a spoiler free review, so you're going to want to go ahead and hit pause and listen to it after you've seen the movie.

[Matt]

I'm really curious, you know, we. You brought up earlier the choice of making this an anime and this is something that, that you and I, I don't think have. Have talked about at all.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't think we have. No.

[Matt]

Yeah. Your, your previous experience with anime. I, I've told my viewers, you know, I. My experience with anime is very limited. I've seen my kids watch Pokemon and an Avatar. The Last Airbender, which I was informed in the comment section is not technically an anime because it's not made in Japan.

[Alan Sisto]

So that's just a cartoon, bro.

[Matt]

It's even more limited than I thought it was. Yeah, so, yeah, so, yeah. Yeah. So I, I'm pretty new to anime. Yeah. I saw Akira in college and that was about it.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I've seen I think two or three studio Ghibli films. I've maybe watched one other and then a TV show that was an anime, but not a lot. And it's an interesting medium. I certainly don't have anything against it. It can be expressive, it can really convey a story pretty powerfully. And I think in this case it was a really good choice. I liked the visuals in the style that they. I'm still, even now and of course I just watched it a few hours ago. I'm still seeing the characters in my mind's eye.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Very striking.

[Matt]

Yeah. There's some interesting things. Oh, little bit of trivia. I don't know if you knew this, but the 1977 animated Hobbit was made by the studio that would become Studio Ghibli. How crazy is that? Yeah, but, yeah. So when it comes to Rohirrim though, one of the producers, Jason DeMarco, mentioned at New York Comic Con how there were certain things that you could do with animation that you can't do in live action. And that's kind of something that stuck with me. And I've kind of, you know, trying on repeat viewing to take notice of such things.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll have to have repeat viewing before I could take notice.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I saw it for the first time today.

[Matt]

Yeah. So I think one of those is like when. When Helm jumps down and punches the snow troll.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And knocks off his horn and stuff. Yeah. Like, he jumps from pretty far away.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, it's pretty unrealistic. Yeah.

[Matt]

Which. Yeah. Which. Which I don't think would fly in a live action, but it works.

[Alan Sisto]

It would look too Avengers. Y. It would. It would look like, you know, a CG superhero thing.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And it would kind of take you out of the moment, I think. But it works in animation. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes, absolutely, it does. You know, because snow trolls. Huge, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And even looking at the trolls in Peter Jackson's movies, you know, the live action movies, can you imagine a man? You know, but they're able to make Helm bigger than, like a normal man.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Helm is big. Helm's a big.

[Matt]

He's a mountain of a man in this movie.

[Alan Sisto]

He really, really is. And that's the thing is it conveys that visually in a way that maybe you would have had a hard time. Live action. I think if we're talking about other scenes that would have been difficult, if not impossible to do. Live action is a scene that I actually will have to come across eventually. When we talk about this as one of my not so favorite scenes, it was the scene when Hera lures the Oliphant, the Mumach, into the forest where she knows that there's a watcher in the water, and the watcher in the water swallows the guy whole. That was a little over the top. And I'll get to. That's one of my gripey scenes. But I don't think you could do that, even with cg. It was sort of surreal. I think that's actually the word I'm looking for was surreal. And that is something an anime can do quite well.

[Matt]

Yeah. I was on the same page with that. Like that scene. Just. It just. It didn't really feel like it needed to be there.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it felt like. And that'll get. We'll get to one of my gripes here. Let's. We'll categorize gripes separately. Let's start about. Okay, maybe we talk a little bit about the choice of anime. We'll still talk about that until we're done talking about that. And then maybe we'll talk about, let's say, scoring. Then we'll talk about maybe voice acting and then we can talk about maybe story and plot in terms of lore. And then we can maybe talk about some of our complaints or gripes things. Because I want to be positive first. And most of those other things are all positive. So.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. No, I think, you know, like I said, for someone who doesn't have much experience with anime, like, I don't get fired up when I hear, you know, when, yeah. Something is coming out and it's like. And it's going to be anime. I'm not one of those people that's.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, oh, yeah, oh, now I got to see it. Right. In fact, if anything, when I first heard that about this, I was like, really?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I wasn't like skeptical in a negative sense. I was just like, well, that's an interesting choice. I.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know. I don't know what to do because.

[Matt]

There'S such a tradition of live action now. You know, obviously those, those early adaptations were all animated.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But, you know, it's really found success in live action. And so a lot of people.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. By no measure can you say that Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings was box office success.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah, yeah. So it was so successful that they only made half of the Lord of.

[Alan Sisto]

The Rings so successful. They just ended it at Helm's Deep and said, we're done now. Sorry, Ralph. Yeah.

[Matt]

But, yeah, I know a lot of people have a soft spot for that. I don't as much, but I have.

[Alan Sisto]

A soft spot for a few moments in it. But mostly I have criticisms. Yeah.

[Matt]

I do think. And I'll be very curious to see where the box office numbers end up.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. I wonder if it limits.

[Matt]

Yeah, I've. I've long, you know, kind of, kind of given up on trying to have trust. Like Rotten Tomatoes scores.

[Alan Sisto]

Everything these days can be manipulated.

[Matt]

There's so many things that make a bajillion dollars, and I'm just like, are you serious?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you got.

[Matt]

So it is what it is. But I do wonder if. If it being anime and I've seen it in, like my comment sections, you know, there's. There's people who will not watch it because it is anime and because they.

[Alan Sisto]

Just aren't interested in that.

[Matt]

They just aren't interested, which is a.

[Alan Sisto]

Shame, because anime is not. And this is something I really want to remind people. Anime is not a genre. Anime is a medium.

[Matt]

Yes, absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's the important distinction. I think a lot of people, when they think anime Especially if they don't have any exposure to the, to the medium. They think of it as a genre and they think of a style of film or style of TV show that is sort of classic anime.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Whatever that may be to a person who hasn't seen much.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And they think of that as anime and they're like, well, how are they going to tell the Lord of the Rings like that? No, it can, it can be a comedy, it can be a drama, it can be an action, it can be, you know, it doesn't. It tells whatever story it wants to tell.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And so it's just a medium. You know, you could do it as cg, you could do it as live action, you could do it as, I don't know, puppetry. I mean, it's just a medium. That's all it is.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And I do think, you know, and it's not just anime, but like there's people who just aren't interested in animation, period. You know, they look at it and say, oh, that's cartoon, you know, and don't shoot the messenger here, folks. I'm just relaying what's it. I don't agree with these sentiments. I'm just saying that, you know, these are comments that I've seen, you know, for months now.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And so I think it is going to impact the sort of. The ceiling, if you will, of the box office success. Yeah.

[Matt]

Fortunately for the movie, you know, compared to a live action film, it did not cost anywhere near.

[Alan Sisto]

It may have a lower ceiling, but it has a lower cost too.

[Matt]

Right. I want to say it was like 20 or 30 million. I can't remember.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. That's less than you would pay like one star actor.

[Matt]

Yes. Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Live action.

[Matt]

Robert Downey Jr. Makes probably like three times that for a Marvel for one Iron man movie. Yeah, right. I just looked it up. 30. 30 million? Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Man, that's wild. That's such a small budget for a Hollywood film.

[Matt]

Yeah. But like, I feel like that's.

[Alan Sisto]

It'll get that back.

[Matt]

Yeah. Easily have a successful box office run. And I honestly think that this could be a film that really gets a lot of viewership on streaming.

[Alan Sisto]

That's what I'm thinking is this will have a longer shelf life.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like, I think this is one of those things where, you know, hopefully those people who don't go see it and especially the ones who. Who don't go see it because it's anime or because for whatever reason, you know, they didn't even give it a chance hopefully it'll come across their feed on their TVs one night.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. They'll give it a chance at some.

[Matt]

Point and they'll be like, let's see what this is about.

[Alan Sisto]

Let's give it a watch.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

If they do and they start at the beginning, I think they'll be hooked.

[Matt]

I think so, too.

[Alan Sisto]

That's actually one of the strong points, was the opening.

[Matt]

It gets going fast.

[Alan Sisto]

It does.

[Matt]

It gets to the action quickly.

[Alan Sisto]

It really does. And it gets you interested and invested in the main character, Hera, very quickly. I do think that they did something. I noticed it. But they did it well enough that it didn't bother me. They used sort of the nostalgia of the Lord of the Rings film very early to get you invested, to get you hooked. And it was a combination of the score, which was a strong rendition of the Rohan theme, which is one of my favorite themes from the films. And I can hear it now with the violins just soaring, you know, and the skyline of Etteras and those both happen so quickly and you're just sucked into that very world, even though it's, you know, hundreds of years beforehand.

[Matt]

Right. But it sets the stage. It's like.

[Alan Sisto]

It does. It does a really good job of setting the stage.

[Matt]

That music is so iconic. It's like I would kind of be disappointed if they didn't, I know, introduce us in that way, like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And it was done well enough that I didn't feel manipulated, though there were a couple of moments later.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it's not like, you know, speaking of the score, it's not just a rehash of everything. Like, they use the themes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But there's plenty of. Of new or, you know, you can tell it's like all kind of from the same world. Like, it feels like it's all from the same world, but it's not.

[Alan Sisto]

Inner consistency of reality.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah. We're not just like, oh, we're at Helm's Deep. Let's play that Helm's Deep music. You know, it's like, oh, this guy's kind of bad. Let's throw in the Nazgul music. Like, they don't do that when it's used. It's very effective.

[Alan Sisto]

Did you catch a little bit of the History of the Ring theme at one point?

[Matt]

Yes. When was that? Because I did catch it. I didn't remember where it was.

[Alan Sisto]

No. And now I try to remember what it was as well. I think it might have been. Was it when the orcs, who I believe were voiced by Dominic Monahan and Billy Boyd.

[Matt]

They were. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

When they were talking about the ring and one of them was like, you know, what does Mordor want with rings? I think it might have been then, but I may be wrong. I can't remember. I'll have to look that one up. This is one. I've only seen the movie once. We are recording this on Thursday the 12th, and I just saw it this afternoon, so I'm gonna have to go see it a second time to catch some more things. But. So this is more of a first impressions review, I suppose.

[Matt]

Did you get a hammer? Popcorn bucket?

[Alan Sisto]

I did not. I don't think my theater had anything like that.

[Matt]

Oh, that's a bummer.

[Alan Sisto]

I did, however, have the theater to myself, which was totally unexpected, maybe because it was 3:45 on a Thursday.

[Matt]

3:45 on a Thursday is pretty.

[Alan Sisto]

It was pretty wild because when I went on to get a ticket, I was actually going to go to a bigger theater about 20 minutes north of me that had it in RPX. Well, originally I had it in IMAX. I had a ticket for IMAX and then I get an email refunding my IMAX. I'm like, what do you mean refunding? Apparently they just decided not to show it in imax. So then I went on to buy a ticket in RPX and every single seat that I clicked on, they were all showing as available. But I'd click on it and hit next and it would say, oh, that seat's chosen, choose another one. Oh, that seat's chosen. Choose another one.

[Matt]

Very weird.

[Alan Sisto]

Must have been bugged. I don't think the thing got sold out, but. So I couldn't see it at that larger theater with RPX up the road. I'm going to try to do that next week. So I saw it at my local, which is a little smaller. It was still good. It was still a fantastic, you know, sound and experience everything. Yeah, you know, sound placement was really good.

[Matt]

Yeah. This sound design is one of the things that I have been raving about because, yes, when I saw it, I was like, I've never heard an animated film sound this good.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Like, I have four kids. I've seen a lot of animated films.

[Alan Sisto]

I have seen a lot of animated films. I've seen every Disney, Pixar and DreamWorks film that has come out in the last 15 years.

[Matt]

Yes, yes. And none of them, None. None of them guys sound as good as this.

[Alan Sisto]

Fire. The sounds of fire.

[Matt]

The sounds of battle.

[Alan Sisto]

Battle. The arrows with the thunder of the Hooves, the stampeding of the mumac. I mean, all of that.

[Matt]

It sounds like the live action films.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's actually where I have one tiny gripe. Remember we mentioned that we didn't like that scene with the watcher in the water. They used the exact sound from that film that sort of. I can't, I'm not going to try to duplicate it. But listen to that scene. Watch that scene in the Jackson films and then watch that scene again and you'll hear the exact, exact sound like they pulled directly from it.

[Matt]

So it's a sound effect of the watcher.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it's a sound effect of the watcher in the water from the anime or from the live action film. Interesting. And that pulled me right out of it. Like, why did you just, why didn't you just design a sound that sounded similar, but it was, it sounded like it was lifted straight from it. I could be wrong. I'm willing to be proven wrong. I would have to do a back to back comparison, but it was so obvious to me right off the nose.

[Matt]

That was like, interesting. Okay, so I didn't notice that. So now next time I go, I'm going to take my kids. I think you'll hear it probably tomorrow night. Tomorrow night I think I'll. I'm going to take my, my boys.

[Alan Sisto]

But sound design as a whole was really, really good.

[Matt]

But sound design as a whole. Yeah, like it's the exact same team that did the sound design for the film.

[Alan Sisto]

So like, that doesn't surprise me.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, like, and that was another thing I heard, you know, when they had like their panel at New York Comic Con and stuff was most anime films cannot afford to get sound design from the guys from this level. Yeah, yeah, they're not, they're not mixing their, their anime films at Park Road post production.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they're not.

[Matt]

You know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it was really, really good sound design. I think that helped sort of immerse me in the world.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because you do lose a tiny bit with anime. You do. You lose a tiny bit of. And this would be true of animation in general. I don't mean anime specifically. You lose a tiny bit of that sort of human connection to the characters.

[Matt]

Yeah. You know, there is, there is kind of like a barrier just. Yeah, a bit of a barrier.

[Alan Sisto]

Barrier. Yeah.

[Matt]

Like it feels, it feels like a, you know, like a retelling of a legend in Middle Earth. Like, I think using Miranda Otto as the narrator really helps.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. About to get to casting. Yeah. So that's, that's a Good segue.

[Matt]

She connects, you know, the films. But then like, I honestly just kind of expected her to be at the very beginning, maybe at the very end or something. But they actually. They pepper her throughout in some really effective ways.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. To remind you that you're listening to or taking part in a retelling of this story, of this legend.

[Matt]

Well. And things that can be hard to depict on screen.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. That. Or you need a narrator.

[Matt]

So one of the things that I mentioned, I alluded to in my spoiler free review that I would have liked to see more was Helm after his sons have died. Because they kind of. They use that to be like this mysterious, you know, Helm disappears and then that's when he goes on his like, punching sprees, you know, And. And so I. There's part of me that. That wishes we would have seen Helm's mental state.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

And like, seen him grow gaunt with grief and famine.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Right. But I also see, like, what they did was effective in that he disappears and then it's like, yeah, where did he go? And then like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you get a sense of mystery and of building.

[Matt]

Yeah, you get this mystery. And like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Like kind of creepiness. Like you see from the dunlending perspective, which is very compelling.

[Alan Sisto]

Did like that.

[Matt]

Where they are like freaking out.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And saying, you know, he's not a man, he's a wraith. And he's like eating, you know, the dead and stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Are people.

[Matt]

Yeah, like. Like it's freaky. And they show like his silhouette, you know, backlit. And you know, his. He's just like kind of creeping, sort.

[Alan Sisto]

Of walking a little unnaturally.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah. It's like he's almost floating. Yeah. He's slouched, but he's like floating kind of thing. So. Yeah. So I'm. I'm kind of like. I really like what they did. There's part of me that wishes that we would have seen him grow gaunt with grief. But. But Eowyn, you know, kind of narrates and explains. You know, I think she might even use the word gaunt. I can't remember.

[Alan Sisto]

She does. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because she uses the words right out of the text.

[Matt]

Yeah. Because I think it is gaunt with grief and famine. So. Yeah, that's. That's one of those elements, you know, to circle back to where I started this. That's one of those. Those moments where I feel like the narrator. The narrator comes in really handy and. And I don't think. Again, I don't think a narrator in that sense would work as well. In live action, either. I think it's more.

[Alan Sisto]

No, you'd.

[Matt]

More animated.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Yeah, I think so, too.

[Matt]

Like, I think we've gotten used to narrators in certain types of films or in a prologue, but in a film like Lord of the Rings, I don't think you would just throw one in the middle like this.

[Alan Sisto]

Can you imagine a literal word for word adaptation of Lord of the Rings where you have a narrator describing the landscape all the time?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, that's just. The canons of narrative art cannot be wholly different. But they are different. Yeah. I think the choice of narrator was a good one. I think that's a really good storytelling device. But I want to talk about. And use that as a segue to talk about the casting. The. The fact that they used Miranda Otto is, of course, brilliant. Ties us to the films, gives us sort of the idea that, you know, Eowyn, the film Eowyn, that we knew Miranda Otto 20 years ago, knew about the story of Hera, and would have heard about Hera growing up. And she's telling us about this story now in her later days, and it's just a fantastic way of connecting us to it. But that brings me around to casting, because, of course, Miranda Otto was a natural fit for that.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I have to say, the voice acting. I say casting, but really it's not about, like, ooh, get this person in because they look like this, or whatever. Right. It is all about the voice acting.

[Matt]

It's all about the voice. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And, wow, I thought the casting on that was spot on. I mean, obviously the only one that I actually knew that I've seen or heard before is Brian Cox, who. Yeah, Brian Cox, who does helm Hammerhand and absolutely flipping owns.

[Matt]

Does a great job.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that was great.

[Matt]

He proves, you know, on online, you'll see people kind of, like, freak out when actors don't know, like, the source material and stuff. And it's like. Like, he kind of proves the fact that, you know, he doesn't need to know the details. Like, he knows what kind of character Helm Hammer Hand is.

[Alan Sisto]

And, you know, he's not a complicated character, let's be honest.

[Matt]

Yeah. I'm sure he gets little tidbits of direction here and there, and then it's like, it's Brian Cox. Like, he has enough to get on with, and then you just got the job, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, he did really, really well. I thought that was, for me, the best performance in the film. But the woman that played Hera was just really fantastic.

[Matt]

Gaia Weiss.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, just Adored the way she carried herself, you know, vocally.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You really felt everything from the doubt and the sort of the tenderness that she had with her father and then the strength. I mean, man, I don't know about you, but I got chills when she's challenging Wolf and Wolf says, you think I'm afraid of you?

[Matt]

You should be. You should be.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness. Look out, man. Good stuff.

[Matt]

You know, another thing that I mentioned in my review is I love how much of that Anglo Saxon, like, bravery in the face of death. You know, that Rohan, the sort of.

[Alan Sisto]

The Beowulf moment. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes. The bail. Yeah. The Beowulfian element, which I. I think I just recently saw an interview where Philippa mentioned them going back to Anglo Saxon tales and looking. She said, like she took another look at Beowulf, you know, as they were.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Oh, there's some Beowulf moments in there.

[Matt]

Yeah. You can tell. And, like, I love that stuff. You know, obviously, I'm a big fan of, like, the Rohirrim in the books and the films.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

And part of it is that that Anglo Saxon nature where they. They just are always.

[Alan Sisto]

Doesn't matter the odds. I'm.

[Matt]

It does not matter the odds. And, like, they're always bringing the bravery and, like, you know, like, gosh, just thinking of reading Eomer when. When he thinks that all hope is lost and he's screaming death and everything and.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Oh, gosh, it's. And we get elements of that here.

[Alan Sisto]

Where it's like, oh, especially with Helm's Last Stand.

[Matt]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That moment is.

[Matt]

Again, the sound design when he punches someone is so satisfying.

[Alan Sisto]

Every punch, you feel it to your core. Yeah.

[Matt]

It's so satisfying. But, yeah. And then. And then when Hera faces off against Wolf at the end and, you know, it's like before Frailoff shows up.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Which I'm sure we'll get into that because that's a departure from the books.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

But before Freloff shows up, it's just her riding out, as you know. And I love the voiceover, you know, recalls the Shield Maiden.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Line where it says, when all the men were gone, men were dead.

[Alan Sisto]

These women defended Rohan when nobody else could.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so good. And it's just like, you know, she's just charging into what is essentially her death.

[Alan Sisto]

And she knows it. She knows full well at that point that she is going to die in order to protect her people, which is such.

[Matt]

Just in hopes of protecting. In hopes of protecting her people.

[Alan Sisto]

Just to give them a better chance of surviving this escape. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Glorious voice acting and even the villains. I thought Wolf did a great job. Really. You come to hate that guy, you know, at the beginning you want to feel sorry for him. He just watched his dad get killed. Then he's been rejected. Then he gets. The minute that he's got her captured and he pulls that weapon on her, you're like, I'm done.

[Matt]

Yeah. He like slices. Slices her cheek.

[Alan Sisto]

Just even pulling the. Pulling the blade on her is enough for me.

[Matt]

Right, right. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

We're done now. I'm not going to feel sorry for you anymore.

[Matt]

I would have liked to see a little bit more of Wolf prior to Freca.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Getting killed.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Like, I think that was the one thing I was curious about because. And we also don't get this in the book. So I'm not like.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we don't get hardly any of this in the book.

[Matt]

I'm not saying. I'm not saying like, oh, they, they left this out from the books or anything because we don't know there either.

[Alan Sisto]

But everything that was in the books is in there.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. There's a lot of other stuff filling in the blanks. Yeah.

[Matt]

Right. So, yeah. Wolf. I wonder if, like, maybe a scene with Wolf and his father would have.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe before they came to come to see.

[Matt]

That's what I was thinking. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. We get the flashback when he's young, when he's a kid and he and Hera are playing and that's great.

[Matt]

Frecka's not even in that scene though.

[Alan Sisto]

But. Right. And that's the thing. I still want to see Wolf as a young man as like, you know, I want to see a little bit more about him. I think that would have been great to see more of that villain arc.

[Matt]

Yeah. I was just curious, like, what's their relationship like? Cause Freca doesn't seem like dad of the year material.

[Alan Sisto]

No, he doesn't, does he?

[Matt]

But Wolf is pretty upset, so it's like, did they have a pretty decent relationship? Is it. It's believable that he would get mad. Like, I don't think it's unbelievable or anything.

[Alan Sisto]

And he already feels sort of on the outs. Remember, he does mention something about, you know, how he's always been, you know, mocked for his half done, lending blood.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, and he felt like he doesn't belong. He's not really part of Rohan. It would have been nice to see some of that to understand a little bit more. So. Yeah. But Really? I mean, that's just a small.

[Matt]

But he's a. He's a pretty, Pretty good villain and I like that. I think that we get a bit. There's enough there to realize that at least in the beginning, that wolf isn't like 100% in the wrong for wanting revenge.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. You know, his dad's been killed.

[Matt]

There's enough gray area there. Yeah. It's like, you know, and I think because there's so many ways that they could have taken the punch, like they could have made the punch just like this glorious moment and like made Helm out to be unquestionably the hero of that moment. And I think they. They did a pretty good balance there where it's like, yeah, oh crap. I just kind of messed up maybe. I'm not going to admit it.

[Alan Sisto]

And you can see that. Right. I mean, Helm's like, you saw what happened. I only hit him the one time.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I didn't. This isn't. This is my intent. I didn't mean to kill him.

[Matt]

Right. But it doesn't. It doesn't matter. But. Yeah, and then like I. I like the, you know, so. So you can kind of understand where Wolf's coming from.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Initially.

[Alan Sisto]

But boy, it changes. Yeah.

[Matt]

But then it changes fast and then.

[Alan Sisto]

It turns into madness. Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, dude, you went off the deep end, man.

[Alan Sisto]

Really off the deep end. Some other casting stars or, you know, some of the really, really outstanding, I thought, vocal performances. The woman that played her handmaid, what was her character's name? Olwen.

[Matt]

Olwen, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Olwen.

[Matt]

So she was actually played by Andy Serkis wife, Lorraine Ashbourne.

[Alan Sisto]

Huh. I had no idea. She did a fantastic job. I really liked her character. I sort of saw her as actually one of the shield maidens, you know, and when Hera said, they're not all gone, I'm thinking of her.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too.

[Alan Sisto]

She takes charge, man.

[Matt]

Yeah, I. I also like, you know, speaking of shield mains, I like that the concept of shield maidens is vague. Like they didn't try to over explain.

[Alan Sisto]

Nope.

[Matt]

And like lay it all out there. They left it vague as it is in Tolkien.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

You know, we know that there were. That shield maidens were a thing.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly.

[Matt]

And there was a time when women rode to war and that's just. That's all we know. And like I. I kind of like that they also left it vague, like Tolkien does.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And. And the response about it, you know, those were darker times that, that the eventual traitor ends up you know, he's the one who says, oh, but those were darker times. And, you know, we don't need to do that. That really was the implication in the text, you know, that. Yeah, this was. Yeah, it was a very desperate time when the women rode off to combat.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But which.

[Matt]

Spoiler alert. This becomes a pretty dark time very quickly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. When you got three large mumma kill coming your way.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's, that's the thing where like, you know, the folks that complain about head of fighting, like, oh, my goodness, it's a pretty desperate situation, guys. I'm pretty sure this constitutes a all hands on deck kind of situation here.

[Alan Sisto]

It really does. And you've hit on something that's really annoyed me in, in niches of the fandom coming into this film. And it's this complaint about Hera being a main character. Oh, Tolkien didn't even give her a name. Why is she important? You know what? Stop with that. Stop with that utter nonsense. There were a lot of things that Tolkien didn't explain or tell us full stories about.

[Matt]

That doesn't mean that they're not worth exploring.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly, Exactly. And this is. Hera is absolutely consistent with the women that Tolkien has written.

[Matt]

Yeah, she is 100% consistent, especially the Rohirrim ones.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. She's consistent with Eowyn number one. But I was absolutely thinking, even though they named one of her brothers Haleth. Well, because Tolkien actually named one of his brothers Haleth, she reminded me of Haleth of the holiday right in the first age. Totally leading her people and, you know, not being pledged to any man. And I just really loved. It was. I thought it was solid. And I, I just don't get this immediate sort of, I don't know, kind.

[Matt]

Of like a knee jerk reaction like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yeah. Like a visceral reaction to like, oh, kids, a woman.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

It's like, it's like, dude, get out your basement, man.

[Matt]

I've had so many people comment on my, my review that, that say things that are like, this movie does, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you have claimed. Clearly not watch the movie.

[Alan Sisto]

Clearly. Yeah.

[Matt]

You're just parroting people's fears, I guess. Whatever.

[Alan Sisto]

These are the same people who didn't want Rey in the Star wars films because she's a girl. These are the same people. And we can still criticize those films, right?

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, believe me, I'll criticize the sequels. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But this idea that we can't have a female character be a warrior is just absurd.

[Matt]

It is.

[Alan Sisto]

Anybody who says that has clearly not.

[Matt]

Read Tolkien, especially in the situation that we're dealing with, like.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, and the culture we're dealing with. The Rohirrim.

[Matt]

Yes, the Rohirrim. Like, I and I. I recently did a video on warrior women in Tolkien.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man, that's awesome.

[Matt]

And the Rohirrim and the Eotheod have, like. It is said that, you know, they're remembered in songs, you know, of people who remember the north, which is when they were the Eotheod. And so that's even beyond the references that we get to the Shield Maidens of Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it goes back to before Kyrion and Aorl. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, heck. And even. Even in. We were talking about just a minute ago with the writers, the fact that there were women in the north that were remembered in these songs not that long ago, when we were doing the stuff on the slave revolt, if you.

[Matt]

Remember correctly, the Easterlings.

[Alan Sisto]

The Easterlings. Their women fought, too.

[Matt]

Yeah. It's not this crazy idea. Yeah, no, sorry, that's a bit of a tangent, but it feels like one.

[Alan Sisto]

We had to touch on because.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's just. Because there's just been a lot of noise about that.

[Alan Sisto]

But that's the thing. It's a lot of noise from a very small amount of vocal people. I don't think it's a large portion of the fandom.

[Matt]

I think Hera is handled really well. Like, really well, you know, because. Because there were. There were. And I. I'll say, you know, not everybody who had reservations about Hera being the main character falls into that category. I think that's important to say. Like, there is a genuine. Or at least, you know, there was, I think, in. In my mind, a genuine concern that, okay, you're. You're expanding what is a semi original character, essentially, because it's. It's just a mentioned character with no name. And you're, like, creating this person as the main character. So there. There is a natural concern, like, oh, are you gonna push the canon characters to the side in order to focus on this person? But the thing is that they didn't push the other characters to the side. Helm does all the things. Yeah, all the things that he's supposed.

[Alan Sisto]

To do 100% and more, you know, and.

[Matt]

And, like, her losing her brothers is an emotional gut punch.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my gosh.

[Matt]

And losing her dad. And, like, I loved what they did with Helm pushing Hera into the door and closing the doors and being like, you're their leader now.

[Alan Sisto]

Do this. They need you.

[Matt]

Kind of like how Theoden does to Eow when she leads them to Dun Harrow in the books. Yeah. And, like. Yeah, I just. I just thought that it was so well done and believable and the timing of everything, like, it builds up to the moments where. Where she actually fights with the sword and everything and faces off against Wolf, like. Yeah, I thought they did a really good job.

[Alan Sisto]

I did, too. And, you know, you mentioned three of the most poignant moments in the story, and it was the. When her brothers were killed and when she thought she'd lost her father. Those were, like you said, gut punches. And yet those of us who know the story knew those had to be coming. I mean, we know that the brothers die.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

The text makes that very clear. So every time they were in peril, I kept waiting for them to get killed.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

And, you know, trying to steel myself against their loss. And I'll tell you what, they got me real good with the first one. When he was shot through the throat.

[Matt]

Yeah. No, I didn't.

[Alan Sisto]

I gasped. I was.

[Matt]

I did, too. Yeah. Oh, that was one of those. That sucked the air out.

[Alan Sisto]

It was just like, totally. Totally. I mean, the second one, you expected it because the. The circumstances are like, oh, they're gonna kill him, you know.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah, with the horse. The horse kind of, like, giving out and stuff. I was like, oh, gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh. In fact, I actually thought that was the last we saw of him. I thought, okay, they're going to kill him off screen. We're going to find out about it. But once they had him as a prisoner, I thought, okay, they're gonna kill him. You know, this is. This is a Gelmir moment in the first age. You know, they're gonna kill him right there. We're lucky that they don't actually do the Gelmir thing where they cut off his and hands and gouged out his eyes and then killed him.

[Matt]

Oh, gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Don't forget Tolkien can write some pretty disturbing stuff.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, no, he definitely can.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And, like, I actually credit them with showing restraint there, because they could have easily.

[Alan Sisto]

We didn't need to see that. And I'm glad we didn't.

[Matt]

We didn't need to. And, like, it. It hits just as hard.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh. And maybe even harder because you're seeing their reactions to it.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

You're seeing Helms and Hera's reaction, and.

[Matt]

It'S like, you know, what happened. There's a power in letting the audience's imagination, you know, fill in the blanks at stuff like violence that I've always.

[Alan Sisto]

Been a big appreciator of 100%. I'm super glad they didn't go graphic on that. Let's talk a little bit about story. I think we've already pointed out the fact that they do a really good job of making sure that everything that happens in the actual text of the story happens here.

[Matt]

Just about. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, they check almost all of the boxes.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Virtually all. They've added a lot of things. Of course, they've had to fill in the blanks to turn this into a full story. Let's talk about some of those additions and the ones that we liked and the ones that we didn't. I think we mentioned the snow troll a minute ago. I liked that. That was fun. Yeah, that was a great scene that showed us a lot about what Helm was about in that stage.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

I liked the orcs. I like that they didn't rely on the ring gimmick. They mentioned it and then went away from it.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you for that. I was so afraid that you were going to spend 10 minutes on this and that we were going to get some young golem looking. I mean, it really was just like they're going to go off on this and they didn't. And it was great.

[Matt]

No, it was just a. Yeah, it was just a little.

[Alan Sisto]

Just a brief reminder, little moment.

[Matt]

And, you know, it basically served to show why the Dunlendings would think that Helm was eating their dead.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Yes.

[Matt]

Because it's the orcs that are eating their dead, but they don't realize it. And so they're. That's how. It's kind of cool how it shows how the legend comes to be, you know, from. From this unrelated, like. Yeah, Orcs that are. That are just feasting on all these, you know, provided dead people, they're like, hey, free buffet. Sweet. Okay.

[Alan Sisto]

I liked that. I appreciated their attempt at explaining the presence of Mumakil. I ended up accepting it and just enjoying them because it was fun to see. But.

[Matt]

Well, because they're. Because they're mercenaries.

[Alan Sisto]

They're mercenaries. But they're mercenaries. It says they're variogs, which they were mercenaries as well, like the Variogs of Khand. But the thing is, Khand is like way far away. Like, there's no way that the Dunlendings.

[Matt]

Oh, I didn't realize that they actually name dropped Khand.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, they didn't name drop Khand. They name dropped the Variogs. But the Variogs are from Khand. There's that's who's from Khand.

[Matt]

I didn't realize they said Varyags.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they said Variag mercenaries. Yeah.

[Matt]

Interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

They also said Southrens, which is wrong because it's Southrens, but that's okay.

[Matt]

Now there is like a four year gap between Freca being killed and Wolf coming back, which they do say. So like they do, they do say for four years or four winter, however.

[Alan Sisto]

They say like shadow in the night or something like that.

[Matt]

Yeah. So like it's not in my mind, it's not crazy to think that he could have gone and recruited these mercenaries and they could have made their way up in the course of four years.

[Alan Sisto]

That just was so far. He wouldn't have even known they existed. I mean, I think he would have spent that time building the alliance with the Dunlendings, you know, with the hill men, you know. But I don't know that he would have thought, well, I want to go past the Easterlings and past Mordor all the way down on the other side of Umbar and find Cond, where they've got these great mercenaries that they call the Variation. I struggled with that.

[Matt]

I wonder. Yeah, because my assumption, you know, because we know that Corsairs, like in the books, the Corsairs are attacking the coast of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Correct. All the way up to the mouths of the Isen, which is to the west of the west march.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

So they could conceivably advance. Right.

[Matt]

Well, and it says that they allied with Wolf. Like in the text. It says they.

[Alan Sisto]

Which is why it was interesting when they said the Variogs, the Variag mercenaries. I was like, right.

[Matt]

I would have thought, I thought for sure they were going to say the Corsairs, maybe Haradrim. But yeah, so my thought was always like, oh, that's how the Mumix, the Mumakil will get there is because of the Corsairs.

[Alan Sisto]

And that would have made a little sense, except that also then you have the issue of would they have been transported by boat? That would have been hard do. Okay, so I know it's done. I know it was done historically.

[Matt]

Yes. Because Kelly Rice and I looked this up and discovered that yes, Caesar at one point transported them by boat. So yeah, could be doable.

[Alan Sisto]

It's possible. I just. These are bigger than normal elephants though. Can we be clear? The Muma, the Muma kill are bigger even than.

[Matt]

Like I said, four years is a lot of time.

[Alan Sisto]

You could march a lot of time. And I ended up letting it go because the way they incorporated them in the story was good. I mean, let's be honest. It was a really intense moment with the battles with the Muma kill.

[Matt]

It's one of those situations where like, I don't know, I. I'll forgive something in a movie if it's really cool.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And that's kind of what I did same with. With her climbing the mountain with her. Her ice axes and you know, like, does she really have that kind of mountaineering experience as the princess of Rohan as she's climbing ice mountains? I don't know. But whatever. I let that go because it was cool, you know. But the thing I mentioned on earlier that I didn't really let go cause it wasn't cool was the Watcher in the water. I didn't like that scene at all. Like you said. I don't think it added anything. She just could have escaped the Mumak in the forest and then been captured. We didn't need to have the Watcher. And I feel like sometimes they were doing those as callbacks and falling into that prequel trap of like, let's make sure we use this thing that's in the movie that we're referencing.

[Matt]

I heard that like, part of the tradition of like anime is to have like monster versus Monster stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

That's. Yeah, I guess actually that makes sense.

[Matt]

A Mumak versus a Watcher is kind of. Kind of playing into that trope.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I don't know. Yeah, it was such a. Such an odd thing. Like of all the. Of all the things to. To kind of reference, like the Watcher is. Is kind of an odd one.

[Alan Sisto]

It was an odd one when. When she said, doesn't she know what creature, you know, what creatures are in that forest? I thought, oh, are we going to see ants?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

I literally thought we were going to see an Ent take down a Mumac, not watch her.

[Matt]

Yeah. Because I wasn't sure, like, what forest. And I'm still curious what forest that was. Yeah, that's the thing.

[Alan Sisto]

I almost wonder whether it was one of the forests along the White Mountains. You know, a lot of those forests, you know, might not even be around by the time we get to the War of the Ring. I don't know. It was. That was an odd part of the story, I admit.

[Matt]

Now, what did you think about. So the ending is tweaked. It's, you know, a little different in the book. So. Yeah, in the books. For those who aren't familiar, Freloff marches from Dunharrow. Surprise attack on Etterus, where Wolf is, where he kills Kills wolf.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

In. In the film, which I actually. I kind of liked Helm's Armor being delivered to Frelo.

[Alan Sisto]

I like Helm's Armor. And I liked. Because of the power of the legend, I liked what that did to the Dunlendings.

[Matt]

I did like that crap. He's back right where they're like, wait, that guy who just died is back?

[Alan Sisto]

Like, that was really good.

[Matt]

That was cool.

[Alan Sisto]

But that also called us back to the moment in the films where Am Air leads the. The. The charge of horses in Gandalf down the. Down the slope.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

It's another one of those. I don't know. I let that one go again because it was well done. But.

[Matt]

And I. I appreciate too, that. That they're not one for one ing these, like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And. Yeah, maybe it's not a big enough difference for some people, but the fact that this is turned into a night scene and, like, with the moon rising.

[Alan Sisto]

Behind them instead of the sun. Yeah. Right.

[Matt]

And like, the mood of it is different. It's very not. You know, because I felt that. That eeriness. And there I felt like it was, you know, playing into that dread of the Dunlendings rather than like, the. More you. Catastrophe of Amer and Gandalf, maybe.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Or can I just give a shout out to Eric and Brand? Poor guy never makes any adaptation. Actually, Eric and Brand. He does it in the book.

[Matt]

It is in the books.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. No, you're right. The tweaking of that. It made sense. It would have been a little anticlimactic to have Frealaf come and take him at Etteras. I felt like they obviously wanted the battle and the movie to center around the Hornburg, or Helm's Deep, as it would come to be called. So I actually was perfectly fine with that part of the ending. And I was surprisingly okay and actually very. I kind of wept a little bit with Saruman being presented to frail off. You know, the new resident at Eisengard.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Because of course, I. I knew what Philippa Boyens had said, that we're using dialogue that was actually spoken. It's not AI generated. This is actually a recording of Christopher Lee.

[Matt]

Yeah. Because they still. They still have all that adr.

[Alan Sisto]

All that stuff that was on the cutting room floor. All the. Yeah, exactly. And that was. That was really cool. And it feels.

[Matt]

That is good.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it really does, because that is in the text. Frelof welcomes. It would have been nice to maybe see the Steward of Gondor at the time who was, I believe, was that Under Boromir's stewardship. Not Boromir, son of Denethor. Well, yes, Boromir son of Denethor, but Boromir the first. Son of Denethor the first.

[Matt]

I think it might have been.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it might have been.

[Matt]

But, yeah, I think it could have been done just as effectively, like, without using Christopher Lee's audio. Like, okay, before people start yelling at me for being, like, heartless and stuff, I'm just saying, like, I think they could have done it with a montage and then. Or the voiceover or whatever and not had to, like, put his audio in there. But I'm not. I'm not a heartless person. Of course, I loved hearing Chris release voice coming out of Saruman. And I'm glad that there again, they exercised a level of discernment and limited it to a single line, you know, where they. They didn't overdo it and chop a bunch of stuff up, you know, because there is, you know, like, we were talking about voice acting earlier. There's a performance element to it. And I think you can. You can do something and pay homage and. And have a really touching tribute to. To Christopher Lee. But, you know, if you. If you would have tried to put together four lines or something, then you're. You're kind of like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, you would have been. You could have gone too far. And they didn't go too far, but I think.

[Matt]

I think they hit it. They hit the right amount, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Did hit the right amount. By the way, I have a quick correction. It was a B, but it was not Boromir. Boromir, of course, was actually the father of Kyrion. So it was a long time before it was Baron. That was Baron Steward.

[Matt]

I knew it was another famous name.

[Alan Sisto]

Another famous name, Right. It was Baron. That was the steward of Gondor at the time. It would have been nice to see, you know, Gondor represented. But I get it. It was a movie about Rohan, so we don't need to see.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, no, we didn't.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I think really, I mean, really, the watcher's the only scene that made me like, Oh, I really don't. This scene didn't. Did nothing and sort of took me out of it. That's really about it. I don't have any other major gripes, but I did feel like a few times they went to the well of either exact camera angles or very, very similar camera angles or exact dialogue. When Hera and her. I think her brothers and her handmaiden were out there before they encountered the Mumak. They found the dead Southron there and the crows. And she says, krebine from Dudland. Just like that took me right out and sent me right back to the films.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it's like, can you. Yeah, they're Krebine from Dunland. But can you say it differently? Can you deliver the line differently than they did in the films 20 plus years ago?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Sometimes you. And it's tough because I feel for the filmmakers in this because they do want to tap into.

[Matt]

Right. There's a balance.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. That nostalgic feeling for these films and to pay homage, like you said.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But not to ape or to pull too hard. And. And that's such a subjective line. Like how much is too much? For me, Caribbean from Dunland was too much. And for me, the sounds of the watcher in the water and that top down angle of watching the watcher's mouth open up, which was also, you know, just exact camera angle from Jacksonville, those are the ones that were for me, a little bit too much.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But as a whole, I thought the film was really, really good. I like it.

[Matt]

I did too. Yeah. No, I, I really liked it. For me, the, the one. This, this is me just like I'm gonna fully own the fact that this is a nitpick in the moment. I was like, when, when Helm is rallying up the troops to go out and fight, he. He has them like they chant death.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

And that's such a. Synonymous with like Theoden situation on the Pollenar. I was like, I don't know that it doesn't carry the same gravitas as when Theoden does it. Because this is Helm, he's a much more, you know, what's the word? Prideful guy. Like, he's going into this fight confident.

[Alan Sisto]

I feel like if he's saying death, he's saying it's death to them.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Whereas I think Theoden with the Rohirrim at the Pelenor is saying to death, we're going to death. But that's okay because we need to do this.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. It's like all we have left is our death kind of thing. Yeah. So it was just like that. That felt like that was maybe trying to strike the same. Yeah, the same thing. But it's. But the situation didn't. Didn't fit. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

And so other than that, like his, his speech and stuff was, was great. Like, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Like I said, I'm picking nits at.

[Alan Sisto]

This point, but it's fair I mean, those, those are the challenges that a filmmaker has when they're working in an established universe and telling a story that.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, the story itself may not have been told before, but the stories connected to that story have been told before. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. Man. I've, I've been excited for this film since it was announced. You know, even when it, when like I said, not being a big anime guy.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

I was like, I think, I think there's potential there. Like, I knew there was potential in the story.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh. Yeah.

[Matt]

And I was like, great story. I feel like in anime form. Like, I, I feel like I could still really like it even though I'm not an anime guy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And so my, my hype levels just kind of steadily built for this one because I've never along the way, really come across anything that made that stumble. Like, I've just been.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, kind of consistently looking forward to this movie and so to like, to go in and just see a movie that I, I feel like has a lot of common sense when it comes to telling a Tolkien story.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And like pulling from the right things and like, obviously we have, we have little gripes here and there, things that we would have done differently, but, you know, pulling from different elements of, of the Rohan lore, pulling from things from Anglo Saxon, you know, culture and writings, like, stuff that is just core Rohan and stuff that inspired Tolkien himself.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

I just, I feel like this movie is a win.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, it is. How does it feel to. You mentioned the hype and how suddenly, how does it feel to not be disappointed?

[Matt]

It feels great. Like, you know, like, I think the way I put it in my spoiler free review was, you know, it just feels good. Like after watching the movie, like, I don't just feel like, oh, yeah, I'm. I'm optimistic for the future. Like, no, I have like a measure of confidence in the future. Like, like these are the same people who are going to be doing Hunt for Gollum and stuff, and they've shown a sensibility here and just, you know, just solid storytelling. It's just solid.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So if I were to rank this, let's wrap this up and let's do like an overall rating. Yeah, I'm, I'm not going to give it a 10. You know, this isn't the best movie ever, but it's a really solid movie. I think I'm giving this an 8 maybe out of 10.

[Matt]

Feel so fear. It's funny because I gave it an 8 out of 10 in my, in my spoiler. Review.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I was thinking between seven and a half to. To eight, but eight feels good.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's the only one I've done so far is my spoiler free one. I haven't done a full spoiler review. And like I said, on repeat viewing, I might, I might tweak the score a little bit, but I feel I went with eight because I was like, I'm not going lower than this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I might have gone seven and a half, but I felt like an eight was more fair. It's justified.

[Matt]

Like, for me, I, and I know we, we score things different. Like I've. I've said before, like, I know that I have more affinity for An Unexpected Journey. In particular, I have a lot of.

[Alan Sisto]

Affinity for the Unexpected Journey. The first half of it.

[Matt]

I know you've said like your minute limit or whatever it's.

[Alan Sisto]

The rest of it's not bad, though. I mean, that's the thing. Like if the first half of Unexpected Journey is a seven and a half or an eight and the second half is like a six and a half, those are both much, much, much better scores than they're going to get with Desolation, Smog or Battle of the Five Arc.

[Matt]

Right? Yeah, see, but I even think those scores are low. I think the beginning of Unexpected Journey is delightful. But we're not here to debate that.

[Alan Sisto]

No, we're not Hobbit films.

[Matt]

But yes, so. So, yeah, I think I went with eight because I was like, I will give this a solid, enthusiastic 8 out of 10.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

And not second guess it whatsoever. Like, I will.

[Alan Sisto]

I agree.

[Matt]

Like, it feels good to, to have the confidence, you know, in my score too. To be like, nope, I'm going to defend this. I'm going with that thing, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

It'S like, you know, you mentioned Unexpected Journey and again, I'm not trying to dwell on that. I will watch An Unexpected Journey again every now and then. I don't watch the other two. I haven't watched Desolation of Smaug or Battle of the Five Armies. I've watched them once after the extended editions came out to watch the extended edition, but those aren't good enough movies for me to watch a second time. So I don't. But I do watch Unexpected Journey every once in a while. I'm gonna watch this movie again. I'm gonna go see it in the theaters again. Which I can't say about any of the Hobbit movies.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I can't say about any movie really, since the Lord of the Rings. I Don't think. I'm trying to think. There's been a movie that I've seen more than once in the movie theater since Lord of the Rings, man. I think so.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now that you say that, I don't know if I have either. I was trying to think of maybe like, Episode seven of the new Star wars movies.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I'm trying to figure out.

[Matt]

I don't know. I think even that one I only saw once and, like, that was one where I was like, oh, this is actually pretty good.

[Alan Sisto]

There's not a lot of movies that I've seen twice in a theater anyway.

[Matt]

It takes. Takes a lot to get me.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, get me excited enough to go to a movie theater, let alone.

[Alan Sisto]

Let alone twice. Yeah. But, yeah, I will go see again. And I've got to track it down in RPX now because I did not get to see it on. On. In the RPX format, which is the, you know, superior sound and, you know, all of that, just incredible technology behind it. But IMAX would be even better if I could find a show on imax. But I'll take rpx.

[Matt]

Yeah. Definitely gonna see it again, I think. Definitely. You know, for. For me, this is just a film thing that I feel like in general is like, go to the theater that you have that has the best sound.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, yes. The sound is what makes this film.

[Matt]

Because it's like, yeah, a bigger screen is always fun and stuff, but. And that's just my general cinema advice.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm with you on that 100%. Because if I can't see everything because it's too big, that doesn't help me.

[Matt]

No, but, like, great sound, as long as it's a decent screen and they're not. Like, their projectors aren't crap. Like, if it's a quality screen and quality projector, but they have really good sound. Like, that's gonna immerse you way more than just having a big screen. That's my audio video side. Tangent, you know, soapbox moment.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I'm with you because we have a similar background in that. Yeah, Yeah, I agree. All right, well, let's go ahead and get into the episode.

[Matt]

Well, I'm sure as we're recording this before seeing the movie, that we had some amazing thoughts on it that you heard.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm just glad that we had a chance to see it in the future. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes. In the future. Our future selves. Good job. Future selves on that. On that review.

[Alan Sisto]

Those guys are great. Huh? They.

[Matt]

Oh man, they were so much better than us. But it's all downhill from here, so. But fortunately, text wise, it gets to go uphill. We get to get back into Tolkien's writings, which is always a good thing. So, Alan, take it away. Let's continue the story where we left off.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, this time we're going to bring Saruman into the story as the bad jokes that the intro might have hinted at. Now, before I read, just a reminder, of course, this is the I called it an unexpected episode earlier, Matt, and that's because it is. We had originally expected to be able to cover the house of Eorl in a single episode, which was probably overly optimistic. And so now we're picking up sort of in the middle of all of the things. The first line has just ended with the death of Helm, and now Hild's son, Frealaf, that would be Helm's sister, has been crowned king and is the first king of the second line of Rohan. So that's where I'm picking up. It was at the crowning of Frealaf that Saruman appeared, bringing gifts and speaking great praise of the valor of the Rohirrim. All thought him a welcome guest. Soon after, he took up his abode in Isengard, for this Beren, steward of Gondor, gave him leave, for Gondor still claimed Isengard as a fortress of its realm and not part of Rohan. Beren also gave into Saruman's keeping the keys of Orthanc, that tower no enemy had been able to harm or to enter. In this way, Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men, for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the steward and warden of the tower. But Frealaf was as glad as Beren to have this so and to know that Isengard was in the hands of a strong friend. A friend he long seemed, and maybe in the beginning he was one. In truth, though afterwards there was little doubt in men's minds that Saruman went to Isengard in hope to find the stone still there and with the purpose of building up a power of his own. Certainly after the last White Council in 2953, his designs towards Rohan, though he hid them, were evil. He then took Isengard for his own and began to make it a place of guarded strength and fear, as though to rival the Barad Dur, his friends and servants. He drew then from all who hated Gondor and Rohan, whether Men or other creatures more evil. Ooh. All right, you know, a new neighbor moved in and I'm not so keen. His dogs are barking all the time.

[Matt]

He's kind of shady, that guy. There's something about him.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. He's the guy who, when he ends up turning into a mass murderer you're the guy who's being interviewed by the news and you're like, yeah, I always knew something was wrong with this guy.

[Matt]

There's something wrong. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Saruman.

[Matt]

Now, in the short paragraph we skipped we are reminded that after this invasion, Rohan was devastated. They'd lost a lot of horses and cattle and they're suffering from shortages in this moment.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, that was a long winter. And then, of course, that long winter created a dearth afterwards. Now, thankfully, it was a very long time before they were faced with any big threats. And that's because it was also a very long time all the way to the time of King Fulquina before they got their strength back.

[Matt]

Yeah. And how long was that? Well, Frelof becomes King in 2759. And Folkwina, his great, great grandson didn't become king until 2865. So that's more than a hundred years later.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it took him a long time to recover. So coming back then, to 2759, right after the end of the war and at the coronation of Frealaf we read that Saruman showed up doing his usual thing, giving gifts, flattering the Men of Rohan. Clearly not talking about, you know, what is the House of Eorl. But that's Barn, where the. I mean, those are the things you say later.

[Matt]

Quite the change. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. No, he was flattering the Men of Rohan to the point that, well, everybody liked him. It's definitely key Saruman stuff right there.

[Matt]

Yeah. And it's the same year that it's listed that the steward of Gondor Beren gave Saruman Isengard to live in. Though it was very much on the borders of Rohan it's one of those areas still specifically part of Gondor even after they give Calenardhon to what would.

[Alan Sisto]

Become the Rohirrim And Saruman was even given the keys.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, the stewards had been holding those keys since the time of Cirion. As we read in the chapter on the Palantir in Unfinished Tales it stood in a region with which Gondor became less and less directly concerned. Calenardhon, never densely populated had been devastated by the dark plague of 1636 and thereafter steadily denuded of inhabitants of Numenorean descent by migration To Ithilien and lands near Anduin. Isengard remained a personal possession of the Stewards But Orthanc itself became deserted and eventually it was closed and its keys removed to Minas Tirith. Wow. Yeah, that's wild. I mean, just. Well, let's shut down the place and, you know, bring your keys back. You just put a sign up.

[Matt]

You know, it's gonna get musty in there. I have to think, like, I hope you put some mothballs in there.

[Alan Sisto]

Come on, hire a cleaning crew, man.

[Matt]

Yeah. Oh, they're. They're going to have a fixer upper on their hands.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, they are.

[Matt]

Saruman gets in, at least it's made.

[Alan Sisto]

Of stone, so nothing's going to rot while they're gone.

[Matt]

Yeah, right. Yeah, it's structurally sound. It's got good bones, as they say on hgtv.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, it's got obsidian bones or something like that.

[Matt]

Now, that actually didn't mention the when. But in Kyrion and Aorl we read that in the days of Kyrion Angrenost was still manned by a guard of Gondorians. But these had become a small settled people ruled by an hereditary captain. And the keys of Orthanc were in the keeping of the Steward of Gondor.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So once in control of Isengard and Orthanc Saruman did the next Saruman thing. Bossing people around, I mean, just as comes naturally as anything else.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, initially, he had the authority of the Steward and the support of Freloff as he seemed to be a friend to Gondor and Rohan.

[Matt]

Yeah, and the text is gloriously vague here. Maybe in the beginning he was one in truth. But we know that he went there looking for the palantir and to build up power.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

So, yeah, he's kind of got some shady things going on. Maybe he was a little friendly. But it's Saruman. He's looking out for Saruman.

[Alan Sisto]

He's always looking out for number one. That's right.

[Matt]

Less than 200 years later, in 2953, his intentions toward Rohan were definitely evil even if he'd managed to keep them hidden.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, remember that we read when looking at the line of the Stewards in Gondor that when Turgon died, Saruman took Isengard for his own and fortified it. Well, that was 2953, and that's two years after Sauron began rebuilding Barad Dur and declared himself openly.

[Matt]

And according to the Tale of Years, it was less than 50 years later, in third age 3000 when Saruman dares to use the Palantir of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone. He becomes a traitor to the Council.

[Alan Sisto]

Now we're going to take a deeper look at his use of the Palantir and how he planned it from the beginning by looking at the chapter on the Palantiri in Unfinished Tales in the postscript for this episode. For now though, let's take a quick break and come back to talk about the lines of the Kings of the Mark Attention Last Minute Shoppers Look, I've been there actually just about every year. Actually. I know how stressful it can be to try to find a great gift at the last minute. Stores are looking pretty bare by the time I get to them, and I've given far more gift cards than I care to admit. I'm happy to tell you though, you still have time to get a really thoughtful and personal gift perfect for your loved ones. An Aura Digital Photo Frame. Top rated by Wirecutter, the Strategist and Wired. It'll be a great surprise for anyone your parents, grandparents, siblings. And while this has been said a lot, in this case it's really true. It's the gift that keeps on giving because you can keep uploading new photos to a frame that you've gifted using the Aura app and even invite the rest of the family to join in and do the same. The photos look like real prints on this thing. The display is really amazing and Aura frames are easy to set up. They come with free unlimited storage for as many people as you want to invite to a frame. No fees or subscriptions. So save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best selling Carver mat frames by using promo code PONY at checkout. That's auraframes.com promo code PONY. This deal is exclusive to our listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. It's the new year, so it's time to start turning your resolutions into reality. Now I know for me that means getting back to the gym after a rough year, fitness wise and well, without getting too blunt. That also means trying to smell better. And there's a resolution we could all use. I've been using Mando. It's a whole body deodorant. I've been using it for a few weeks now and I've really been happy with. Well, with smelling better. Mando is a whole body deodorant, so you don't just use it on your armpits. Any place on your body that could use a bit of odor control. You can use Mando there. Yes, there too. It's proven to block and control odors all day, even in this tiny podcast booth. And it's available in solid stick spray or even cream. Personally, I like the Pro Sport scent, but Bourbon Leather is pretty nice too. Now, as a special offer for our listeners, new customers get $5 off a starter pack with our exclusive code. Now that equates to over 40% off your starter pack. Use code [e-mail] S H O P M A N D O.com Please support our show and tell them we sent you smell fresher, stay drier and boost your confidence with Mando. Now. Soon we'll get to the lines of the Kings of the Mark. But before we do, we want to remind you there is always a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony Podcast. Follow the Ponytail page to get the news, but please join the group to get involved in some great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there@r prancingponypod on Twitter and Instagram, we're simply Prancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And if you want some daily Tolkien content. And really, I mean, come on, who doesn't Check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth map Monday to First Stage Fridays. Be sure to check it out at YouTube.comtimes and follow tolkeenty on all your social media. For now though, we're going to get right back into the Reading and we're going to talk about the Line of the kings.

[Matt]

First line 24:85-25:45 EORL the young he was so named because he succeeded his father in youth and remained yellow haired and ruddy to the end of his days. These were shortened by a renewed attack of the easterlings. Eorl fell in battle in the wold, and the first mound was razed. Feloorof was laid there also. 25:12:25:70 Brego he drove the enemy out of the Wold, and Rohan was not attacked again for many years. In 2569 he completed the Great hall of Meduseld at the feast, his son Baldor vowed that he would tread the paths of the dead and did not return. Brego died of grief the next year. 25:44, 26:45 Aldor the Old he was Brego's second son. He became known as the Old since he lived to a great age and was king for 75 years. In his time the Rohirrim increased and drove out or subdued the last of the Dunlandish people that lingered east of Isen. Harrowdale and other mountain valleys were settled. Of the next three kings, little is said for Rohan had peace and prospered in their time. 2570-2659 Freya eldest son but fourth child of Aldor. He was already old when he became king. 25942680 Freyowina. 26192699 Goldwina 2644, 2718 Deor in his time, the Dunlendings raided often over the Isen. In 2710 they occupied the deserted ring of Isengard and could not be dislodged. 2668-2741 Graham. 2691-2759 Helm Hammerhand at the end of his reign, Rohan suffered great loss by invasion and the long winter. Helm and his sons Haleth and Hama perished. Frealaf Helm's sister son became king.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you, Matt. That's a great list of kings. I love that. And that's of course, just the first line. Now. EORL the young of course, we already spent a lot of time talking about Eorl and we're going to spend even more time when we get to Kyrion and Eorl. But this is where we get mention of the fact that he died in battle against the Easterlings in 2545 at the age of 60. And while I'm going to guess that the Eotheod, that is who they were before they were the Rohirrim and maybe even the Northmen before them buried their lords in mounds. This is where the first mound is raised in Rohan.

[Matt]

Yeah. And his mound is bigger than the others as Felaroff is there too. Or at least I assume that's the case.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, yeah. I mean, putting a horse in the mound is going to make it a pretty big mound.

[Matt]

Never really thought of that before, but that's a good point.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a huge mound in comparison. But of course, you know, we don't read anything about any of the other horses being buried with their lords.

[Matt]

That's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Snowman. There's a whole separate placed for Snowman on the paler because, you know, his body remained there.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's right. Now, Erol's son and the second king of Rohan was Brego.

[Alan Sisto]

Just a quick insert here. That's Old English for chief, leader, king or lord. And get used to that. I'm going to interrupt Matt a lot when it's his time to give you a little input on the old English version of the name.

[Matt]

Yeah. And also, fun fact, Brego is the name of Aragorn's horse in the films.

[Alan Sisto]

In the films, that's right, yeah.

[Matt]

And he was named after this king of Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, he was.

[Matt]

Now, he finished the job that his father died doing and drove the Easterlings out of the Wold, giving peace to Rohan for a long time. And he also moved the capital of Rohan from Aldburg, where Eorl set up shop, to Edoras, and that's where he.

[Alan Sisto]

Built the Great hall of Meduseld. In 2569, it's time for a quick sidebar on a source of inspiration for Meguseld, the Golden hall of King Hrothgar in Beowulf Heorot.

[Matt]

First, the word Meduseld, an Old English word meaning mead, house, house in which feasting takes place, comes straight out of Beowulf. Line 3065.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And then the line that Legolas says of Meduseld in the book as they approach the light of it shines far over the land is itself, according to Tom Shippy in the Road to Middle Earth, a direct translation of line 311 in Beowulf.

[Matt]

I love hearing Old English spelling.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. I do too.

[Matt]

I really want to learn. I really want to learn how to pronounce it, because I have no idea. Now, not being Old English scholars ourselves, we'll have to take his word on that.

[Alan Sisto]

We will.

[Matt]

But it's not the only comparison of the hall of the Lords of the Mark. And more similarities to Beowulf, thanks this time to Hammond and Skull and their reader's companion. While no such great hall survives from the Anglo Saxon period, literature and archaeology indicate that it once existed.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And they continue. Tolkien seems to have used such fragmentary evidence to imagine the interior of Meduseld. In Beowulf Hrothgar's Great Feast Hall, Heorot is described as having a faggen floor, colored variegated floor, and on special occasions, goldfag seen on the web after wagum gold color shown in the woven wall hangings. Now they go on to talk about how the floor is similar to Roman mosaic floors made of different slabs of stone or colored marble, while also mentioning the evidence for those woven or embroidered wall hangings that date back to Anglo Saxon times. Now for even more connections between Rohan and Anglo Saxon language and culture. Go back four seasons to season five of the PPP and episode 204 where Sean and I talked at length about Medgiseld. And likely with better Old English pronunciations because it was Sean reading the Old English.

[Matt]

That was a fun sidebar. But let's get back to the main story now.

[Alan Sisto]

All right.

[Matt]

His son Baldor, who discovered the Paths of the Dead along with his father, vowed to pass the Dark Door when Meduseld was inaugurated. When he did, a year later, he never returned and Brego died of grief.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, thankfully for Rohan, Brego had another son, Aldor. And that's Old English for chief, prince or elder or parent. I'm sure there is an old joke here somewhere, and I am sure that somewhere along the lines I'm going to be called Aldor. But Aldor lived to be 101, and he ruled as king for 75 years. Come on, man. We need to introduce term limits in Rohan. Except it was overseeing a time of growth for the Rohirrim, so it was all good. That's a long time to be king, man.

[Matt]

It is.

[Alan Sisto]

That's like Lion King. You know, guys, I just can't wait to be king. I just can't wait to retire.

[Matt]

Right? Yeah, I think I would have retired. I would have been like, you know what? Next up.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. I'm done. I'm going to pull a Numenorean and hand the scepter off to somebody else. Enjoy a few years.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now, while his father Brego had defeated the Easterlings in the Wold, it was Aldor's job to clean up what was left of the Dunlendings east of Isen. Now, the next three kings have nothing said about them, but the first is Freya.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Now that's Old English for lord or master. And because his father, Aldor the Old lived so long, freyja was already 75 when he became king, sitting around doing nothing. I'm working on a job. Just doing a little on the job training. I'm interning. What are you doing? I'm interning for the. He's like, you're in your 60s, man. Yeah. It's going to be a while past retirement, so it's not much of a surprise that he ended up ruling for only 14 years. Now, his son Freoina, which is Old English for dear or beloved. Lord came after him and ruled for 21 years. He was 65 when he came to the throne. But to kind of put this into perspective, he was 51 when his grandfather Aldor died.

[Matt]

So wild. So wild. Now, Freoina's son and the next of the kings was Goldwina, which is Old.

[Alan Sisto]

English for generous and kindly prince.

[Matt]

And he ruled for 19 years. So he was 26 when his great grandfather Aldor died.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, my goodness, how many of us? He probably had kids of his own, right? Well, actually, I guess we find that out because we get mention of Dayor. Yes, he was born during the life of his great, great grandfather Aldor. He was a year old when Aldor died. So can you imagine? You're a young man, you're married, you've got a child, and your great grandfather is king.

[Matt]

That's wild.

[Alan Sisto]

Just insane. So Deor was 55 when he became king after Goldwyna's death. His name is Old English for brave or bold.

[Matt]

And sadly, there are things to say about his reign. It's the time when the Dunlendings started raiding Rohan from across the the Isen. And when he discovered that the riders were coming from the area of Isengard, he led a force there in 2710. And though he managed to defeat an army of Dunlendings, he could not take back the fortress of Isengard. And as we talked about last week, Gondor, then led by Stuart Egilmoth, couldn't send help. So Dior kept a large detachment of riders in the northern part of the Westfold.

[Alan Sisto]

Now next up is his son Gram, who continued to fight against the Dunlendings and to protect Rohan from their raids. Now a brief digression on his name. In letter 297, Tolkien explains that Anglo Saxon is not only a fertile field but the sole field in which to look for the origin and meaning of words or names belonging to the Speech of the Mark. Now, in a footnote to that passage, he notes the name of this king Gram, as an exception to that writing. That Gram is of course, a genuine Anglo Saxon word, but not in recorded Anglo Saxon, used as a noun meaning warrior or king, as it is in Old Norse. But some influence of the northern language upon that of the Aerlingis after their removal northward is not unlikely. It is in fact paralleled by clear traces of the influence upon one another of the poetic language of Old Norse and Anglo Saxon.

[Matt]

In other words, though Graham means furious or fierce in Old English, Tolkien is saying that this is a name inspired by the Northern Mannish language just as Old English was influenced by Old Norse. And thus Graham takes on the Old Norse meaning of warrior or king.

[Alan Sisto]

Love that.

[Matt]

Other than that there's nothing really to say about Graham except he's the father of Helm Hammerhand. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

The Mighty One. Punch. Yes.

[Matt]

The last of the first line of kings. And a man we spent a lot of time talking about already. So we'll move on to the second line. Alan all right, Matt.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. Second line. 27:26-27:98 Frealaf Hildeson in his time Saruman came to Isengard from which the Dunlendings had been driven. The Rohirrim at first profited by his friendship in the days of dearth and and weakness that followed. 27:52 28:42 Britta he was called by his people Leopha for he was loved by all. He was open handed and a help to all the needy. In his time there was war with orcs that, driven from the north sought refuges in the White Mountains. When he died it was thought that they had all been hunted out. But it was not so. 2780-2851 Walda he was king only nine years. He was slain with all his companions when they were trapped by orcs as they rode by mountain paths from Dunharrow. 2804. 2864 Folca he was a great hunter but he vowed to chase no wild beast while there was an orc left in Rohan. When the last orc hold was found and destroyed he went to hunt the great boar of Everholt in the Firionwood. He slew the boar but died of the tusk wounds that it gave him. 2830-2903 Folquena when he became king the Rohirrim had recovered their strength. He reconquered the west march between Adorn and Isen that Dunlendings had occupied. Rohan had received great help from Gondor in the evil days. When therefore he heard that the Haradrim were assailing Gondor with great strength he sent many men to the help of the steward. He wished to lead them himself but was dissuaded and his twin sons Folcred and fastred born 2858 went in his stead. They fell side by side in battle in Ithilien. 2885 Turin II of Gondor sent to Folcuina a rich wereguild of gold. 2870-2953 Fengel he was the third son and fourth child of Folkuina. He is not remembered with praise. He was greedy of food and of gold and at strife with his marshals and with his children. Thengel, his third child and only son, left Rohan when he came to manhood and lived long in Gondor and won honor in the Service of Turgon. 2905-2980 Thengel he took no wife until late but in 2943 he wedded Morwen of Lassarnach in Gondor though she was 17 years the younger. She bore him three children in Gondor of whom Theoden II was his only son. When Fengel died, the Rohirrim recalled him and he returned unwillingly. But he proved a good and wise king though the speech of Gondor was used in his house. And not all men thought that good Morwen bore him two more daughters in Rohan and the last, Theodwyn, was the fairest, though she came late 2963 the child of his age. Her brother loved her dearly. It was soon after Thengel's return that Saruman declared himself Lord of Isengard and began to give trouble to Rohan encroaching on its borders and supporting its enemies. 2948-3019 Theoden. He is called Theoden Ednu in the lore of Rohan for he fell into a decline under the spells of Sodomon but was healed by Gandalf and in the last year of his life arose and led his men to victory at the Hornburg and soon after to the fields of Pelennor, the greatest battle of the age. He fell before the gates of Munburg. For a while he rested in the land of his birth among the dead kings of Gondor but was brought back and laid in the eighth mound of his line at Edoras. Then a new line was begun.

[Matt]

All right, so going back to the beginning of that reading there we've got Fre Olaf. We mentioned earlier that this was when Saruman showed up and was given stewardship over Isengard and the keys to Orthanc. Yeah, which actually helped Rohan early on after the long winter.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And then his son Britta Leofa came to the throne at 46 and ruled until he was 90. Now, Brita is old English for bestower, distributor, prince or lord. It's typically used poetically, like the Danish king Hrothgar in Beowulf who's actually called Bea Gabritan, Giver of Rings, the name given to Brita by his people. Leova is Old English for loved or beloved. For good reason, it sounds like now.

[Matt]

Rather than Easterlings or Dunlendings. His conflict was with Orcs that had been driven out of the north in their war with the Dwarves. Now, you read about this two episodes ago. It was in the days of Beregond that the War of the Dwarves and Orcs was fought in the Misty Mountains in 2793-2799, of which only rumor came south. Until the Orcs, fleeing from Nanduhirion attempted to cross Rohan and establish themselves in the White Mountains. There was fighting for many years in the Dales before that danger was ended. Now, Rohan believed that he'd cleared out all of the Orcs by the time of his death in 2842. But we read here that it was not so and that his son will find out only nine years later.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. His son Walda, which comes from Old English waelda, meaning ruler, was killed along with every one of his companions when they were all on their way back from Dunharl. But his son Folke, which is from Old English folk, meaning folk or people, finally drove out the last of the.

[Matt]

Orcs, driven, it would seem, by his desire to hunt, which he'd put on hold to avenge his father.

[Alan Sisto]

Right?

[Matt]

So after the Orcs were gone, he went out hunting the Great Boar of Everholt. Sure, he managed to kill the boar, but he received a mortal wound from him and died at the age of. Of 60.

[Alan Sisto]

Once again, I keep thinking about the hobbies of kings. Ought we not to have hobbies that are not so perilous? Stamp collecting comes to mind. Painting, painting, podcasting. I mean, you could do anything.

[Matt]

All kinds of options.

[Alan Sisto]

Hunting wild boars, especially ones that can kill you. Anyway, interestingly, by the way, Everholt. Right, the Great Boar of Everholt. That's actually derived from Old English Eophor, wild boar, and holt would. So Everholt. Yeah. Now, he was succeeded by his son Fulcuina, which is Old English for friend of the people. And we mentioned this way back earlier in this episode when we talked about how it had taken this long for Rohan to regain their strength after that crushing invasion in 2758 during the reign of Helm Hammerhand. And the results of the Long Winter.

[Matt]

Yeah, he got rid of the Dunlendings that lived in the far west of Rohan between Isen and Adorn. And he's the one you talked about two episodes ago, who helped Gondor during the leadership of Steward Turin II in 2885. And in appendix A1 4, the stewards.

[Alan Sisto]

Paragraph B, subsection 37.

[Matt]

Gotta love this. It's almost like legalese that we're getting into here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it's wonderful. Yeah.

[Matt]

It says, when Ithilien was invaded in great strength King Fulquina of Rohan fulfilled the oath of Eorl and repaid his debt for the aid brought by Beregond, sending many men to Gondor. With their aid, Turin won a victory at the crossing of the Poros. But the sons of Folquina both fell in battle. The riders buried them after the fashion of their people and they were laid in one mound, for they were twin brothers. Long it stood howd in Gwanur, high upon the shore of the river and the enemies of Gondor feared to pass it rightly.

[Alan Sisto]

So. Well, here we get a little bit more background that Folquina had wanted to lead the men himself, but he was talked out of it. Instead, he sent his twin sons. Now, he was only 55. And certainly the kings of Rohan were doing mighty things in their. Well, I'm not even going to say twilight years in their middle age. Dang it, 55 is not old. His twin sons were 27 at the time. They fell in battle, both of them, sadly. And Folquina received a Weregild. And there's that word again. We talked about this last episode from the steward Turin. Interestingly, though, nothing in the line of kings is said about that. How in Gwanor.

[Matt]

Yeah. Next up is Fengel.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's old English for prince. But it's interesting. It comes from a Germanic root meaning to grasp.

[Matt]

And it's a good thing that Folkuina had three sons or Theoden wouldn't have become king of Rohan.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

But it's a shame that it had to be this guy in particular. It says he's really the only one of the kings not remembered fondly.

[Alan Sisto]

I know they had a good string of kings that all of a sudden.

[Matt]

This guy had a good run.

[Alan Sisto]

He was greedy. He was fighting with everybody, right? His marshals, his kids. I have to wonder about that were guild that we read about that his father received after his older brothers were killed. Right. Fingal was 15 when his older brothers died in battle and his father became really, really wealthy. Was he spoiled? Did the father maybe feel bad, like, I gotta lavish. I gotta give my son all he wants because my other son's died. You wonder, like, what went on here that messed this kid up, that turned him into this greedy fighting you know, conflict filled guy. I don't know.

[Matt]

Sorry. Doesn't it say something about food in there?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That he was greedy for food as well.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Everything just give me.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. He reminds me of Frecka. I imagine him being a little bit like Frecka because of that love of food.

[Alan Sisto]

Like he's a little wide in the belt.

[Matt]

Yeah, he's a widen the belt guy. And not that every person who's widened the belt, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Matt]

I'm just saying, like he reminds me of Freca. That's all. That's all I'm getting at there.

[Alan Sisto]

I get that.

[Matt]

I get that now. One of the people he'd have fought with was his son Thengel, who we read simply left Rohan as soon as he could for more than a gap year, it must be said. So he's. He's out.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm going to go head out to Europe. I mean, Gondor. Yeah.

[Matt]

And there in Gondor he served under.

[Alan Sisto]

Turgon, I should add, by the way, I know that you and I, Matt, are not having a problem understanding the difference between Fengel and Thengel. But those listening might be having a hard time because audibly, the F in Fengel sounds a lot like the th in thingel. So that the bad guy is the one whose name starts with an F. Fengel, his son, Thengel. T H E N G E L who is Theoden's father's actually the good guy. He's the one who left and went to Gondor. Now speaking of Thengel, which is another Old English word for prince, they just did not run out of these words. They didn't apparently run out of princes either. He not only spent a lot of time in Gondor, he married a Gondorian woman, Morwen of Lassarnach. Now we learn more about her in Unfinished Tales. In a note. After the disaster of the gladden fields she was known as Morwen of Lassarnach, for she dwelt there. But she did not belong to the people of that land. Her father had removed thither for love of its flowering vales from Belfalas. He was a descendant of a former prince of that fief and thus a kinsman of Prince Imraill. His kinship with Eomer of Rohan, though distant, was recognized by Imrahil and great friendship grew between them. Eomer wedded Imrahil's daughter Lothiriel and their son Elfwina the Fair had a striking likeness to his mother's father. Interesting.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Love that connection.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. I've always loved the connection between Eomer and Imra Hill. That comes later on. But it's. It's cool that there's even more depth to it.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it really is.

[Matt]

Now, an interesting side note. In the drafts, this isn't mentioned, and instead, Eomer is said to have married Morwen, daughter of Hurin of Gondor. That is Hurin of the Keys.

[Alan Sisto]

Ah, Huren of the Keys. I love that guy. All right.

[Matt]

The Florida Keys.

[Alan Sisto]

The Florida Keys, yeah.

[Matt]

That's.

[Alan Sisto]

That's.

[Matt]

That's what that's named after.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I also find it interesting that there was a Huran who named his daughter Morwin. I mean, to me, Hurin and Morwin are a pair. They're a couple. You wouldn't. But anyway, it's. It's their use of all these names, you know. So when Thengel th. Not f. When Thengel came back to Rohan unwillingly after his father's death, that is Fengel with an F. He brought the Sindarin speech to Rohan, apparently to the chagrin of some of the folks there in Rohan.

[Matt]

Yeah. And he had four daughters and a son. The son, of course, Theoden. We'll talk about him next. But only one daughter is named here, the last Theodwyn. And we are told that Theoden loved her dearly.

[Alan Sisto]

Thengel was 58 when Theodwyn was born. Thus she was called the child of his age. Theoden was already 15 at that point. It's really interesting. I mean, 15 is old to have a baby sister. And it's no wonder to me that he would have just absolutely, you know, sought to protect her and. Yeah, you know, he would have felt a deep obligation, I think. So it really doesn't come as a surprise that when Theodwyn died shortly after her husband Eamund was killed, her children, Eomer and Eowyn, who were then 11 years and 7 years old, were taken in by King Theoden, who raised them as his own. I love that story. That family story is so moving. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes. I love. Gosh, I know I've said a million times, but dearer than daughter just always.

[Alan Sisto]

Brings tears to my eyes every time. Yeah.

[Matt]

Now, also during Thingil's Reign, sometime after 29:57, Aragorn arrived as Thorongil and served Thingel. But also during his reign, Saruman started giving Rohan trouble by supporting its foes.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Then finally, we get the last king of this line, Theoden. And that's old English for Lord or king, using the element Theod, which means people like we see in Eotheod, the horse people.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we spent so much time covering Theoden during his moments in the Lord of the Rings narrative that we're not going to talk as much about him here, just kind of go over the details here in the Line of the Kings.

[Alan Sisto]

Right. And one of those details, and it's not something we see very much, if at all, in the Lord of the Rings, is that he's called Theoden Ednu. Now, ednu is Old English for renewed or restored. And it certainly fits with the description of him falling under Sodomon's control via Wormtongue, but then being healed by Gandalf. Healed, not exorcised, I will add.

[Matt]

Now we get a brief mention of his victory at the Hornburg and his arrival at the fields of Pelennor where.

[Alan Sisto]

He died, right along with what we saw in the narrative, the fact that he was laid in honor in Gondor for a time and was eventually returned to Etteras, where his mound ended. The second line. All right, and folks, we'll come right back and finish this up. It's the new year and it's time to start tackling those things you've been putting off for too long. You've been kicking around a business idea for a while now and you're wondering how you're going to make 2024 different. Look, it's time to do this and Shopify is how you're going to get it done. Shopify makes it easy to create your own brand, open up your business and get that all important first sale. You can get your store up without any coding skills. Man, I couldn't code my way out of a paper sack. You just drag and drop with thousands of customizable templates. Shopify handles all the details that would bog you down. Things like shipping, taxes, payments, all from 1:1 easy to use dashboard so that you can focus on the important stuff growing your business. Speaking of which, Shopify has really powerful social media tools to connect all of your channels and create posts so that you can sell where people scroll. Don't kick yourself when you hear this again in a year because you spent 2025 still thinking about it. With Shopify, your first sale is closer than you think. Established in 2025. Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase go to shopify.com pony to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com pony Imagine what's possible when learning doesn't get in the way of life at Capella University. Our game changing Flexpath learning format lets you set your own deadline so you can learn at a time and pace that works for you. It's an education you can tailor to your schedule. That means you don't have to put your life on hold to pursue your professional goals. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail]. folks, if you're enjoying the PPP, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show better every season. And when you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episode recordings, hangouts. Every month you get episode post scripts. You can get ad free episodes, free merch and more.

[Matt]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the north wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

Now. You can always help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends. Matt, would you go ahead and finish off the reading with King Eomer?

[Matt]

Eomer and Eowyn grew up at Edoras and saw the dark shadow fall on the halls of Theoden. Eomer was like his fathers before him, but Eowyn was slender and tall, with a grace and pride that came to her out of the south from Morwen of Losarnach, whom the Rohirrim called Steelsheen. 2991-4th Age 633084 Eomer Eadig when still young, he became a marshal of the Mark and was given his father's charge in the East Marches. In the War of the Ring, Theodred fell in battle with Saruman at the Crossings of Isen. Therefore, before he died on the fields of the Pelennor, Theoden named Eomer his heir and called him King. In that day Eowyn also won renown, for she fought in that battle riding in disguise, and was known after in the Mark as the lady of the Shield Arm. Eomer became a great king, and being young, when he succeeded Theoden, he reigned for 65 years, longer than all their kings before him, save Aldor the Old in the War of The Ring he made the friendship of King Elessar and of Imrahil of Dol Amroth. And he rode often to Gondor. In the last year of the Third Age, he wedded Lothiriel, daughter of Imrahil. Their son, Elfwina the Fair ruled after him.

[Alan Sisto]

Man, I love that. Now, in the part of the first paragraph that we skipped, we actually read about Eomer's parents, Theodwyn, who we just talked about previously, and Eomund of Eastfold, the chief marshal of the Mark.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we're reminded that this was the time when Sauron was rising again and the orcs were raiding Rohan, killing or stealing horses, stealing the black ones that according to Eomer, when he tells Aragorn and Uruks in Saruman's service are also in Rohan. So there's pretty much orcs everywhere.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And Aemon is a man quick to action. Right. He's ready to ride out against the Orcs. I love the way the text says it. In hot anger, unwarily and with few men. Red flag. Red flag. That's bad sign when the text says that. Because of course, that turns out to lead to his death in 3002 as he chases a small group of orcs into an ambush. And his death leads to Theodwyn's death the same year and to those young kids being taken in by the king.

[Matt]

And yes, he had a son who is 24 compared to the young kids 11 and 7. And we learned that Theoden's wife Elfhild died in childbirth. And picking up with what we just read, Eomer and Eowyn grew up in the capital and saw the influence of Saruman on their uncle adoptive father. We're also told that Eomer was like his father's, while Eowyn was slender and tall, with her traits coming to her from her grandmother, Morwen of Losarnak, one of the kindred of Prince Imrahil.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, as a side note, Eomer was still tall. We read in Unfinished Tales that the Rohirrim were generally shorter, for in their far off ancestry they had been mingled with men of broader and heavier build. Eomer was said to have been tall of like height with Aragorn, but he, with other descendants of King Thengel, were taller than the norm of Rohan, deriving this characteristic together in some cases with darker hair from Morwen, Thengel's wife, a lady of Gondor of high Numenorean descent. Well, Tolkien told us that Aragorn Quote must still have been a very tall and strong man with a great stride. He was probably at least 6 foot 6. So Eomer is a big guy. Yeah, he's a big six, man.

[Matt]

He could play basketball.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm thinking he's maybe like a tight end. He's a game winner, you know, he's catching. Yeah, exactly. He's catching touchdowns in the red zone, man.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Then we get Eomer's entry in the line of kings as the first of the third line.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, first, a little bit about Eomer's name. It's derived from the Old English words ao, meaning war horse, and mere, meaning grand, excellent, famous. Now, the epithet that he gets, Eadig, is Old English for happy or wealthy, but it's more often translated as blessed.

[Matt]

And we learned that at the young age of 26, he's already given high rank as marshal, being assigned his father's area of responsibility, which is the East Borders. Then we're told that after Theodred's death, Theoden names Eomer heir as he lay dying on the Pelenor.

[Alan Sisto]

I love this. I mean, like you said earlier, the. The line about a dearer than daughter, here he is very much treating Haomer as a son, you know, especially after the death of Thedred. I love that we get a mention of Eowyn's heroism, even though she's not in the line of kings here. I mean, it's very brief. We don't get. Yeah, she took part in the battle. She didn't just take part in the battle, man. I mean, whoever the chronicler is here, she killed the Witch King anyway. She's the lady of the shield arm. And we get this footnote for that, actually, in the passage, if you look at the footnote, for her shield arm was broken by the mace of the Witch King, but he was brought to nothing. And thus the words of Gorfindel, long before to King Earnur were fulfilled that the Witch King would not fall by the hand of man. For it is said in the Songs of the Mark that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theoden's esquire, and that he also was not a man, but a halfling out of a far country. Though Eomer gave him honor in the mark and the name of Holdwina. This Holdwina was none other than Meriadoc the Magnificent, who was master of Buckland. Meriadoc the Magnificent. Did he write that himself? That's what I want to know.

[Matt]

That's so good. Now, we're also given a short description of his reign, and It's a long one, 65 years. Now, that's longer than any of the kings of Rohan, other than Aldor, partly because he was only 28 when he came to the throne.

[Alan Sisto]

That'll do it. Yeah.

[Matt]

Now we're also told of his friendship with Aragorn, King Elessar and Imrahil, the three heroes of the Pelennor. Makes me think of this passage from the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Aragorn and Eomer and Imrahil rode back towards the gate of the city and they were now weary beyond joy or sorrow. These three were unscathed for such was their fortune and the skill and might of their arms and few indeed had dared to abide them or look on their faces in the hour of their wrath.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that passage. And it's funny because I was working on writing this episode before we did the Questions after Nightfall that we recorded two episodes ago. 351. And yet in that episode, we were asked about, you know, why did everybody just accept Aragorn's claim that he was king? You know, what? Didn't Imrahil. And we talked about this passage as being part of that evidence. Like the fact that he was so noble and such a good leader and such a good fighter. I mean, who are the other two people here? They're noble. They're royal too. Eomer and Imrahil. So royal recognizes royal. But I just love that passage that they were unscathed. So finally we learn of Emers being married to Lothiriel, that's Imrahil's daughter. And we get more on his reign after the end of his entry in the line of the the kings. Specifically, that Rohan prospered in his time that there was peace for those who wished for it. Which is interesting. I tend to think that's maybe speaking about the Dunlendings or other people who he was willing to make peace with so long as they were willing to have peace.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And then, of course, that coincided with a growth in both the number of people and the number of their horses.

[Matt]

Yeah. And of course, we're reminded that his reign coincides with the reign of the king of Gondor and Arnor Elessar.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yes.

[Matt]

And how since he was now king and the original gift of Calenardhon was granted by a steward Aragorn renewed the gift and Eomer renewed the oath.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. I just. I mean. Oh, Cirion did that in the name of the kings, of course. So it didn't have to be done. This was sort of like renewing your vows after you, you know, 25th anniversary or something. And there's a note on this in Unfinished Tales, in the story of Cirion and Eorl after Kyrion swore his oath in Quenya. And no, I'm not going to use that as an excuse to read that again. Invoking the name of eru. We're told that such an oath had not been heard since Elendil himself had sworn alliance with Gil Galad. But the footnote to that passage reads, and was not used again until King Elessar returned and renewed the bond in that same place with the king of the Rohirrim, Eomer the 18th, descended from Eorle.

[Matt]

And there was some oath work to fulfill because even though Sauron was gone.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

All the evil had not been defeated. So they had to work together to make peace.

[Alan Sisto]

And then I. I know we had to skip a little bit at the end, but I do want to read that last sentence. It's just breathtaking. And wherever King Elessar went with war, King Amer went with him. Him. And beyond the sea of Rune and on the fair fields of the south, the thunder of the cavalry of the mark was heard. And the white horse upon green flew in many winds until Amer grew old. There's a. There's something you could make a movie of. The continuing adventures of Aragorn and Amir. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. It's one of those things that in a. In a text that's kind of has a historical feel like the Lord of the Rings and the legendarium does that. It fits and it makes total sense. I don't know. Adaptation, like, it ends so well at the end of Lord of the Rings where it's like. And everyone lived happily ever after. And then to be like, well, except for all these other wars that they fought.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. I also thought, though, that line about. Until Amer grew old at the end of that, it really reminded me. Made me think about the effect that it would have on relationships of Aragorn's extended lifespan. Now, when the two of these guys became kings of their respective realms, Eomer's 28, and Aragorn's already old. He's 87. Now, you would think that maybe even with Aragorn's longer lifespan, their reigns would end around the same time. But Eomer dies 65 years later at the age of 93. Aragorn's only 152. He lives another 68 years beyond that. So literally more than half of Aragorn's reign was after the death of his good friend Eomer.

[Matt]

That's kind of a bummer too.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. I know it makes me sad to think about like, oh man, that is rough. That is rough. Now in Barloman's day, men had mail who wished for it and the letters increased both in the dales and the plains, and their envelopes multiplied. What does Barlow and have for us tonight?

[Matt]

All right, so Barlowan has a question. This comes from Dallas, who's from Phoenix. This has been a hot topic recently and I'm wondering what would Tolkien have thought of AI?

[Alan Sisto]

Oh man, the guy barely like typewriters and tape recorders. That's a good question. It's a timely question because we have, you know, we have a couple of upcoming adaptations of Tolkien's work.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

We have the War of the Rohirrim coming out real soon. I remember reading just recently, I say real soon. It actually came out a couple weeks ago by the time this episode drops. But we were recording this beforehand, so, you know, we seen some pieces, news pieces, where I believe it was Philippa Boyens was quoted as saying, you know, we're not going to use AI to do any of Christopher Lee's voice, but Christopher Lee, some of the voicing that he did for Saruman in the Jackson films is being, you know, reutilized stuff that wasn't used in the films, like.

[Matt]

Cutting room floor material, like ADR stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we're not going to use AI but at the same time, haven't we heard from Andy Serkis some comments that suggest maybe they're looking at the use of AI in, in. In the new hunt for Gollum?

[Matt]

Yeah, I, I don't know. I know it was. And again, this is, this is what we've seen so far. It's all been second hand. Like I haven't. That's the thing. Yeah, like the, the AI comment was Orlando Bloom asking like, how would it work with him being older, playing Legolas.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

And the answer was AI. So something with like de aging, whether it's the deep fake stuff, stuff like that. And that's one of the things I always, you know, try to remember when I talk about AI because I have some very strong opinions when it comes to AI artwork in particular, because I've seen so many of them that are just, they, they just lack soul and.

[Alan Sisto]

Are just look, because AI has no soul.

[Matt]

Right, yes. There's a reason why it, that's a reason. Yes. So, so I am not a fan of AI overall all, but I also acknowledge that there's a pretty broad term, you know, what people think AI is. I mean, for example, you, you think back to the Lord of the Rings trilogy, like the programs that they were making where you could do wide shots of armies and the individual digital people could be fighting each other and carrying out a battle. Technically speaking, that's a form of AI, I would think, because those, those, you know, characters are, are interacting without actors playing them and stuff.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So, you know, there, I think there's a line to be drawn for sure. And I think we've, we've seen examples of the line being crossed. So, yeah, I'm, I'm one who's very, very curious on what Andy Serkis means when he says AI because I could, I could very easily see it being a technology for, for certain things without going straight into, you know, a soulless creation. Yeah, a soulless creation where, where people are using it to write scripts and to make artwork and stuff like that.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I, I, I'm with you on that, Matt. But the question isn't what you and I think about AI, Right. What do we think Tolkien would have thought about A.I. yeah, I, I do think it's just generally safe to say this is a guy who's opposition to technology in many ways would lead to the conclusion that he would run far away from it and tell us all to do the same. But do we have some quotes maybe from the letters? I know I'm immediately thinking of some things on fairy stories.

[Matt]

Yeah. So I've got one from the letters and I will say right on the front end that I always think it's dangerous business, as we might say, to say what to Tolkien would think when.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that's a very good point.

[Matt]

Like so, so we're making educated guesses here, but there's, there's still guesses. You know, this is a person who neither of us knew in person. He died 50 years ago. So, yeah, we don't know for sure, but we can look at his letters and, and draw some conclusions. So I have this quote from Letter 131 where he says, anyway, all this stuff is mainly concerned with fall, mortality and the machine.

[Alan Sisto]

Machine, yes, machine, absolutely.

[Matt]

And he goes on to say later in this letter, the sub creator, which, you know, he envisions here, we're all sub creators. So the sub creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the creator, especially against mortality. Both of these alone or together, will lead to the desire for power, for making the will more quickly effective. And so to the machine or magic. By the last, I intend all use of external plans or devices, apparatus, instead of development of the inherent inner powers or talents, or even the use of these talents with the corruptive motive of dominating, bulldozing the real world bull, or coercing other wills. The machine is our more obvious modern form, though more closely related to magic than is usually recognized.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, that certainly does give us some insight into. Into Tolkien's thoughts on something like this. I actually found something else in the letters. This is from letter 75 to Christopher Tolkien. He's actually at the end of the letter wondering how Christopher's getting on with his flying since he first went solo. So this is during Christopher's training with the Royal Air Force. And he says, there is the tragedy and despair of all machinery laid bare. Unlike art, which is content to create a new secondary world in the mind, it talking about machinery attempts to actualize desire and so to create power in this world. And that cannot really be done with any real satisfaction. And then here's the line that I absolutely love. Labor. Saving machinery only creates endless and worse labor. It's like the last thing I want is AI to do my writing and my art so that I can spend more time cleaning my kitchen. Right. You know what I mean? I want that.

[Matt]

That's where AI should be. Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. Yes. Tolkien goes on, in addition to this fundamental disability of a creature is added the fall, which makes our devices not only fail of their desire, but turn to new and horrible evil. I think we can safely say what he thinks on this. Maybe. I mean, I really do. I also was thinking of something from on fairy stories, though. That was the first thing I was thinking of. He's talking about escape, right? This is in that section of the essay on recovery, escape and consolation. And in escape, he's just talked about, you know, hey, don't confuse escape with, you know, the escape of the prisoner with the flight of the deserter. The two are very different. And then he gives a little example of something. He talks about electric street lamps of mass produced pattern in your tale is escape in that sense. And he says, and I like this, but it may almost certainly does proceed from a considered disgust for so typical a product of the robot age that combines elaboration and ingenuity of means with. With ugliness and often with inferiority of result.

[Matt]

Well, that doesn't sum up the situation. I don't know what does.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't know. And he goes on, you could, you could literally replace the words electric lamps in this section with AI. Yeah, electric lamps have come to stay, they say. Long ago Chesterton truly remarked that as soon as he heard that anything had come to stay, he knew that it would very soon be replaced indeed regarded as pitiably obsolete and shabby. And then he quotes Chesterton, the march of science, its tempo quickened by the needs of war, goes inexorably on making some things obsolete and foreshadowing new developments. And it's so on the nose from almost 100 years ago for this kind of thing he talks about. And you could insert the names of founders of AI companies here. Not long ago I heard a clerk of Oxford declare that he welcomed the proximity of mass production robot factories and the roar of self obstructive mechanical traffic because it brought his university to contact with real life. He may have meant that the way men were living and working in the 20th century was increasing in barbarity at an alarming rate and that the loud demonstration of this in the streets of Oxford might serve as a warning that it is not possible to preserve for long an oasis of sanity in a desert of unreason by mere fences. Yeah, I just, for my part, he says, I cannot conceive myself that the roof of Bletchley Station is more real than the clouds. And as an artifact, I find it less inspiring than the legendary Dome of Heaven. Yeah, I think we know.

[Matt]

Is that enough? Is that enough quotes for people or do we need to keep going?

[Alan Sisto]

We can keep going. I mean, I feel like stuff from creation and sub creation, the rawness and ugliness of modern European life. I mean, he just goes on and these are things that are a hundred years ago. Oh yeah, I, I, it's, I'm finding more as I'm just scrolling through. It's crazy.

[Matt]

But no, I, I think, I think we can, I think it's safe to say, you know, and the, the thing that really sticks out to me is, you know, the comments that point to that soullessness, you know, and, and yeah, like you said, amen to the, the idea like AI should be doing my laundry and my dishes.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you.

[Matt]

Like that's, that's what I want. Stuff like bring me, I, I want C3PO to come in and like take care of those things for me.

[Alan Sisto]

Free me up to do creative things.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So that I don't have to do the Hard, boring things.

[Matt]

Yeah, exactly. I will say, you know, circling back around to the. To the Rohirrim thing with Christopher Lee, I do. I do appreciate the fact that they didn't take the. The robot voice and the resurrecting of the character. You know, like, if the. If this would be a whole different situation if it was not an animated film, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, it was live action. I don't want to see a digital.

[Matt]

A Grand Moff Tarkin situation.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. That's exactly what I was thinking.

[Matt]

Yeah, that's. That's the one that always comes to my mind. It's like, as cool as it is to see that character, like those. Those effects don't age well.

[Alan Sisto]

No, they don't.

[Matt]

And it's in the un. It lives very much.

[Alan Sisto]

Uncanny.

[Matt]

Firmly in the Uncanny Valley. Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

The deepest depths of the Uncanny Valley.

[Matt]

Uncanny Valley.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes.

[Matt]

Absolutely.

[Alan Sisto]

No doubt about it. It doesn't even. It can't even see the peaks of the mountains.

[Matt]

No, it cannot.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, man. That's a. That was a good question. I really enjoyed kind of digging through that. Obviously, it didn't take long for us to find quotes from Tolkien that would suggest a very strong feeling about conclusive thoughts.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think so. Well, folks, that does wrap it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast and the first episode of 2025.

[Matt]

Oh, how about that?

[Alan Sisto]

I know. Hard to believe that we're already. Next month, February, the Prancing Pony Podcast will be celebrating its ninth anniversary.

[Matt]

Oh, my God.

[Alan Sisto]

Nine years. I know. Crazy.

[Matt]

This is where the Aldor comments.

[Alan Sisto]

Well played, sir. Yeah. I'll hopefully be doing this until I'm 101 as well.

[Matt]

There we go.

[Alan Sisto]

Please be sure to come back next week, folks, when we begin our long run through the story of Kyrion and Eorl.

[Matt]

And at least it's not going to last for 800 miles filled with orcs and other dangers.

[Alan Sisto]

And we don't have to ride a horse. No.

[Matt]

For us. Yeah. Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells Barlaman, Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you're going to find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the great episode artwork. And it is fantastic stuff that Megan's been doing for the PPP over the last couple of seasons.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we've mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the KIR Dance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jared from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Karen in the uk, June in Ireland, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, and Keith in Alabama.

[Matt]

There's also Erica in Texas, Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maurice from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, and Nathan in Arizona. Thank you all so very much for your support indeed.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you very, very much.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your to parliament@the prancingpony podcast.com that's that'll be.

[Matt]

An interesting if anybody actually takes us up on that. Yeah, and if you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio of your question. Visit podimbox.com prancing pony pod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barlaman though.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right now. Even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye. It is Ryan Seacrest here.

[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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[Alan Sisto]

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[Matt]

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