359 – Play the Tradition Tonight

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast Episode 359 – "Play the Tradition Tonight" Release Date: February 16, 2025

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Overview

In Episode 359 of The Prancing Pony Podcast, hosts Alan Sisto and Matt delve deep into the intricate traditions of Gondor within J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth legendarium. Titled "Play the Tradition Tonight," the episode explores the historical and mythological underpinnings of Gondor's customs, the evolution of their traditions, and their significance in the broader narrative of Middle-earth. Through a combination of insightful analysis, engaging discussions, and a touch of humor, Alan and Matt provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Gondor's heritage and its impact on the unfolding events in Tolkien's universe.

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Tolkien's Personal History and Its Influence

Alan introduces the episode by reflecting on Tolkien's legacy:

"It's time to take a look at what's happening this week in Tolkien history." [02:25]

Significant Events Discussed:

1. Tolkien Society's Honorary Presidency (February 16, 1974):

   • Alan: "On February 16, 1974, the Tolkien Society appointed J.R.R. Tolkien as honorary President in perpetuo at the request of his son, Christopher Tolkien." [02:25]

2. Publication of "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil" (February 15, 1934):

   • Matt: "On February 15, 1934, the Oxford Magazine published Tolkien's poem, 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.'" [03:10]
   • The hosts recite excerpts from the poem, highlighting its whimsical and adventurous nature.

3. Personal Loss and Early Life:

   • The tragic death of Tolkien's father in 1896 is poignantly discussed.
   • Alan: "Tolkien had only turned four years old the previous month, but had spent nearly the whole year in Birmingham with his mother and brother." [06:16]
   • The emotional impact of this loss on Tolkien's life and work is examined.

Notable Quote:

Alan: "I couldn't help but picture my own son writing to me the day before I die." [06:08]

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Tolkien's Literary Journey and "Mr. Bliss"

Exploration of Tolkien's Hesitation to Write a Sequel:

• Alan: "In fact, they said they'd accept [Mr. Bliss] if he could reduce the number of colors in his drawings." [10:14]
• Tolkien's doubts about continuing "The Hobbit" are discussed, emphasizing his initial reluctance to embark on what would become "The Lord of the Rings."

Notable Quote:

Alan: "I fear I squandered all my favorite motifs and characters of the original Hobbit." [10:14]

Impact on Middle-earth's Lore:

• The evolution of Tolkien's storytelling from "The Hobbit" to "The Lord of the Rings" is analyzed, showcasing how his vision expanded beyond his initial intentions.

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Critique of Political Allegory in Lord of the Rings

Response to Wagner's Ring Cycle Comparison:

• Alan reads from Tolkien's letter to Stanley Unwin (February 17, 1961):

  "Both rings were round and there the resemblance ceases." [18:51]

• The argument against perceiving Sauron as an allegory for Stalin is thoroughly examined.

Notable Quote:

Alan: "I utterly repudiate any such reading." [19:35]

Defense of Middle-earth's Autonomy:

• Tolkien emphasizes that "The Lord of the Rings" was not intended to be a direct political allegory but rather a product of its own rich mythology and narrative needs.

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Adaptations and The Return of the King

Award Recognition:

• Alan: "The Return of the King won for outstanding performance by a cast, and the award was accepted by the late Bernard Hill." [20:39]

Discussion on Film Adaptations:

• The hosts express admiration for Bernard Hill's portrayal of Théoden and reflect on the emotional depth he brought to the character.

Notable Observations:

Matt: "He gets to steal a lot of Éomer's lines from the book." [21:26]

• The significance of the film's dedication to Bernard Hill in the last credits is highlighted as a poignant nod to his contribution.

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Gondor's Tradition of Isildur

Establishment and Evolution:

• Matt reads an excerpt: "This is a tomb and memorial of Elendil the Faithful. Here it shall stand at the midpoint of the Kingdom of the south in the keeping of the Valar while the kingdom endures." [24:16]

• The tradition mandates that Gondor's kings, accompanied by their heirs, visit the Hallow of Amon Anwar to honor Elendil and receive counsel.

Interpretation by the Stewards:

• The episode delves into how Gondor's stewards interpreted and adapted Isildur's instructions following the extinction of the royal line.

Notable Quote:

Matt: "The tradition of Isildur to be set down in a sealed scroll together with other things that a new king should know." [25:43]

Implications for Gondor's Governance:

• The hosts discuss the stewards' role in preserving traditions and the challenges they face in adhering to or modifying Isildur's directives amidst political upheavals.

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Listener Engagement and Community Highlights

Community Involvement:

• The podcast emphasizes its vibrant listener community across various social media platforms.

• Alan: "The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces." [36:25]

Encouraging Support:

• Hosts encourage listeners to support the podcast through Patreon, highlighting exclusive benefits like ad-free episodes, merchandise, and participation in special segments.

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Closing Remarks and Future Episodes

Summary and Teasers:

• The episode concludes with a summary of Gondor's traditions and a teaser for future discussions on the battles of the Fords of Isen.

• Alan: "Come back next week when we start another Rohirric digression as we begin our look at the battles of the Fords of Isen." [89:00]

Acknowledgments:

• The hosts extend gratitude to their team members and patrons, reinforcing the community-driven nature of the podcast.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tolkien's Defense Against Allegory:

  "Both rings were round and there the resemblance ceases." [18:51]

• Emotional Impact of Personal Loss:

  "I couldn't help but picture my own son writing to me the day before I die." [06:08]

• On Gondor's Tradition:

  "This is a tomb and memorial of Elendil the Faithful." [24:16]

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Conclusion

Episode 359 of The Prancing Pony Podcast offers an enriching exploration of Gondor's traditions, anchored in both historical context and Tolkien's personal experiences. By intertwining lore analysis with discussions on Tolkien's life and legacy, Alan and Matt provide listeners with a multifaceted understanding of Middle-earth's complexities. The episode not only deepens appreciation for Gondor's cultural heritage but also sets the stage for forthcoming explorations into the epic battles that shape the fate of Tolkien's world.

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Note: For listeners seeking more detailed insights or wishing to engage with the community, visit the Prancing Pony Podcast website and join their online platforms on Facebook, Reddit, Twitter, and Instagram.

Transcript

[Matt]

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[Alan]

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[Matt]

Since you're new to HR Block, we'll.

[Alan]

Look at your returns from the last.

[Matt]

Three years for any money your last guy might have missed for free. I could get money back from last year. You could. We'll find any mistakes. Could have really used that two years ago when I dated that mistake for five months.

[Alan]

Don't leave money on the table. Switch to H and R Block and get a free Second look review. Second look is included at no additional cost with the purchase of tax preparation. Results vary. All tax situations are different. Fees apply if you have us file an amended return. Good evening little masters, and welcome to episode 359 of the Prancing Pony podcast where I would bring Matt to the tomb of Elendil, if only he was full grown to manhood.

[Matt]

I already know all the secrets of the realm, Alan.

[Alan]

Yeah, uh huh.

[Matt]

Sure, sure. Yeah. Well folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the nerd of the rings, and I'm here with the man of the west who should probably cause the tradition of the PPP to be set down in a sealed scroll, Alan Sisto.

[Alan]

Are you implying that sudden death or other misfortune might befall? That sounds like a threat to me.

[Matt]

Matt, I would never threaten you.

[Alan]

No, I'm sure you wouldn't. Folks, join us as the stewards can rationalize anything as we complete our six episode carry on in a horal.

[Matt]

Folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome Here in the common room at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan]

Well, yeah, I mean, they're pretty guilty as charged. That's fair. I'm really. We do love our deep dives into the lore though, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more.

[Matt]

But we try to keep it light and fun like a couple friends chatting at the pub. And we're glad you've joined us.

[Alan]

I'm sure you'll be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion. Well, it's time to take a look at what's happening this week in Tolkien history. Now, this episode is releasing on February 16, 2025. So, as we usually do, we'll look back a bit and forward a bit more to see what's been happening around these dates in the life of J.R.R. tolkien. And we'll start with today's date in 1974, just a few months after Professor Tolkien's death in September of 1973. On February 16, 1974, the Tolkien Society appointed J.R.R. tolkien as honorary President in perpetuo at the request of his son, Christopher Tolkien.

[Matt]

But going back to yesterday, just 90 years ago. Only 90.

[Alan]

Only 90 years ago, Matt. Yeah.

[Matt]

On February 15, 1934, the Oxford Magazine published Tolkien's poem, the Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Now, note, this is not the book, this is the poem.

[Alan]

That's right.

[Matt]

It's a bit of a wild poem, really. He escapes Goldberry, Old man Willow, Badger, Brock. And my personal favorite, a wight hiding.

[Alan]

In his house, which I never thought would happen. Right. Bearowite's like hiding out in Tom's house.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. No, and the best part is that the white does speak inverse. And so let's. Let's give you a little taste of it. Dark came under hill Tom. He lit a candle upstairs creaking Went, turned the door handle. Ho. Tom Bombadil. Look what night has brought you. I'm here behind the door now at last I've caught you. You forgotten Barrow white dwelling in the old mound up there on hilltop with the ring of stones round he's got loose again under earth he'll take you, poor Tom Bombadil. Pale and cold he'll make you well.

[Alan]

Tom's got a thing to say, though, doesn't he?

[Matt]

Tom's got something to say about that.

[Alan]

That's right.

[Matt]

Go out, shut the door and never come back after. Take away gleaming eyes and take your hollow laughter. Go back to grassy mound on your stony pillow Lay down your bony head like old man Willow, like young Goldberry and badger folk in burrow Go back to buried gold and forgotten sorrow.

[Alan]

I am glad I gave you that poem to read.

[Matt]

Oh, thanks.

[Alan]

That was fun. And we should do the. We should do an entire episode on the Adventures.

[Matt]

We should.

[Alan]

The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. You want to do a whole episode on that?

[Matt]

Yeah, why not?

[Alan]

There's some crazy poems in there, man. I don't know. Cat. Cat's a good one, all right. There's so much. That's so much fun. The Adventures of Tom Abdiel but of course, the book wasn't the one that was published on this date 90 years ago. It was just the poem. Now, also on February 15, but even further back, 1896, on this day, Tolkien's father, Arthur Tolkien, died from a brain hemorrhage as a result of rheumatic fever in Orange Free State in what is now South Africa, just three days before his 39th birthday. And in emotional whiplash as we go from laughing about Tom to reading perhaps the saddest letter I've ever seen. The day before February 14, 1896, Tolkien wrote. Well, dictated, really, a letter to his dad. Tolkien had only turned four years old the previous month, but had spent nearly the whole year in Birmingham with his mother and brother. Not sure I'm going to be able to read this without choking up. I remember that I first read this letter. I don't know about you, Matt, but I first came across this letter when my son was 3, and it broke my heart. I mean, I just. I couldn't help but picture my own son. Right. Writing to me the day before I die, you know.

[Matt]

Right, yeah, well, and it's. It's so wild, you know, the idea of. Of how far apart.

[Alan]

I know. I don't know that you can get much further apart than that. I mean, from South Africa to Birmingham.

[Matt]

You know, military families obviously have to do this for big periods of time, but like living in a different place than your family.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

No matter the situation has got to be so hard.

[Alan]

And it was all about the health of the kids because the climate down there. And ye, they had to, you know, Mabel had taken the boys up north and of course they were going to go back to see him. And that's what Tolkien mentions in this letter. And again, he just turned 4 and he writes, I am so glad I am coming back to see you. It is such a long time since we came away from you. I hope the ship will bring us all back to you, mammy and baby and me. I've got such a big man now because I've got a man's coat. I walk every day and only ride in my mail card a little bit. Your loving Ronald. And of course, the letter was never sent, as his mother, Mabel, received a telegram that same day telling her that her husband had hemorrhaged. And I just. I mean, it just breaks my heart, the loss that. That Tolkien went through as such a young guy. I mean, yeah, four years old and. And then, of course, it would only be, what, eight years later when Mabel would die from diabetes.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's wild. Yeah.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And. Yeah, it's. Man. We. We kind of take for granted how instantaneous we can get in touch with.

[Alan]

Yes.

[Matt]

Our loved ones nowadays. You know, 100. It's. It's a wonderful development. You know, for all the things, you know, we complain about social media and, like, how. How that can have a negative impact, but there's also some pretty amazing and great things that we have access to nowadays, and one of them is. Is staying in touch with people that, you know, obviously close family that we. That anyone at any time would want to stay close to. But, I mean, you know, think of how many more people we can stay in touch with from throughout our lives that we would have. No idea. Like. I know. Yeah. Like, I've. I've stayed in touch with a college friend for 17 years via Facebook, and we just saw. We just saw them for the first time when we were in Salt Lake City.

[Alan]

Do you finally delete your MySpace, Matt?

[Matt]

Dude, I was. I was part of, like, the early Birds on Facebook, because originally, Alan, it was only for college students.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You had to have an Edu address to have it.

[Alan]

That's right. That's right. I do. I do know that. Of course, I did not have.

[Matt]

It was before all you old people got on there and made it less cool. Just saying.

[Alan]

Okay, fair enough.

[Matt]

But the point of my story is that I was able to keep in contact with this good friend through Facebook for 17 years. And I. We just saw them when we were out in Salt Lake City for the first time in 17 years. We got to.

[Alan]

Oh, that's so cool. But, yeah, you're right. I mean, this sort of distance, like, having to send a letter halfway around.

[Matt]

The world, how long would that even take, you know, to, like, get that letter?

[Alan]

Like, how long did it take Mabel and the boys to get back to Birmingham by ship from Bloemfontein?

[Matt]

I mean, they had telegrams, obviously, so they could do quicker that way, but.

[Alan]

Well, yeah, I mean, she'd gotten the telegram that very day.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

It's so hard. I don't know whether Valentine's Day. I know these days, of course, Valentine's Day is a big commercial holiday, and, you know, it's a sappy thing. I don't know 1896, whether that was a thing, but what a heartbreaking telegram to get on Valentine's Day. That your husband, who is sick, has just had a brain hemorrhage and he's going to die. And then you have to figure out how to tell your four Year old son, man. You have better news for us, right, Matt? I mean, better things happen in the world of Tolkien around this time. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yes, we do. A number of Years later, on February 14, 1938, Tolkien gave a speech at the Lovelace Society, that was an essay club at Worcester College, that's in Oxford. He read a story called the Legend of Worming Hall. That story would become Farmer Giles of ham, eventually published 11 years later in 1949.

[Alan]

Such a great story if you've never read it, by the way, fantastic story, and it filled with philological humor and I mean, it's just. It's such a good story. Well, later that same week, and I'm not having to move years, right, this is still 1938. It's three days after he gave that speech, February 17th, Tolkien wrote letter number 23 to his publisher about Mr. Bliss, a short children's book that Tolkien wrote and illustrated. And it was shown to Allen and Unwin at the same time as the Hobbit had been submitted. So they knew about it, and in fact, they said they'd accept it if he could reduce the number of colors in his drawings. It was going to be too expensive to reproduce. And interestingly, I think we mentioned this a month ago in this Week in Tolkien History, because the first letter about Mr. Bliss was sent to Allen and Unwin on January 17th. So I'm sure we did. A month later, though, where we are now with the publisher still considering it, Tolkien wrote, I wish you could find someone to redraw the pictures properly. I don't believe I am capable of it. I have, at any rate, no time now. It is easier to write a story at odd moments than draw, though neither are easy. And then he talks a little bit about the Lord of the Rings, which was, of course still unnamed at that point, saying the Hobbit sequel is still where it was. And I have only the vaguest notions of how to proceed, not ever intending any sequel, I fear I squandered all my favorite motifs and characters of the original Hobbit. And can we just say in hindsight how not true that is?

[Matt]

And the lie detector determined that was a lie. No, I'm just kidding. Maybe. Maybe he did genuinely think that, though. But clearly, clearly he did not.

[Alan]

Squaw girl is clearly he was wrong. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Good stuff, though.

[Matt]

So, also on February 17, but seven years later, in 1945, Tolkien writes to his son Christopher, first telling him about a really, really rough day that Tuesday, which would have been February 13th. It had been as he called it a day of drench. And what a day, he says. I arrived to lecture soaked to skin, laden with a mass of wet fish, late and hot. And as I climbed onto the platform, my back stud burst and my collar rode up under my ears and the hall got slowly so dark I could not see. Not a happy occasion and I needed the beer by 12. After yet another melancholy hour.

[Alan]

I needed the beer by 12.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan]

I'm just picturing this poor guy, right? I mean, wow. Smelling a fish soaking wet.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

His collars pop because something broke and he's just. Oh, I needed the beer by 12.

[Matt]

Yeah, I want to. I'm going to start using that. I need. I need the beer by 12.

[Alan]

I needed the beer by 12. Yeah, it's that kind of day. Yeah.

[Matt]

So it's clearly one of those days. He also had to go to an evening event where he'd been tabbed to propose a toast that he clearly did not want to do.

[Alan]

Probably never wanted to do that. Yeah.

[Matt]

He said that being tasked with that doomed him to indigestion.

[Alan]

I love how honest he is in these letters to us.

[Matt]

Yes. He's so honest. I love it.

[Alan]

It's great.

[Matt]

But fortunately, the drinks were flowing. He says there was a surprising lot of drink available, including a good deal of gin and it. And that's Italian vermouth. And yes, we did have to Google that.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So that when the time came, I had lost all fear. And after tracing the history of toasting from the Vikings downward, I proposed the health of the provincial and reasonably fluent Anglo Saxon, which seemed to surprise him.

[Alan]

As it would surprise most people. I'd be pretty happy, though, if the professor. My health and fluent Anglo Saxon.

[Matt]

Yeah, Anglo Saxon. I love it.

[Alan]

Especially knowing that he was just a little buzzed.

[Matt]

Yeah, right.

[Alan]

All the liquid courage. That's great.

[Matt]

Isn't it a shame that they didn't. You know, we're talking about technology. If they had cell phones back then.

[Alan]

We'D have all kinds of pictures and we'd have.

[Matt]

Yeah, that'd be on YouTube, baby.

[Alan]

It would. Absolutely would. And a hilarious little ending to that letter, too. He relates to Christopher. Mother discovered her small daughter drawing. What are you drawing, darling? Said she, I am drawing God. Oh, but you can't draw God, dear. Nobody knows what he's like. Well, they will now. Oh, man. He knows how to tell a story.

[Matt]

Yeah. Oh, that's great. I assume so. That's Priscilla, right?

[Alan]

Well, that's the thing. That's what I'm thinking. But it's Funny that he doesn't say mother discovered Priscilla drawing. And I'm not sure if he means mother as in Edith, or if he means a mother that he was sitting near. I have no idea who he's talking about. I included the sentence as it was in the book, but I'm actually not sure to whom he is referring here.

[Matt]

In fairness.

[Alan]

Yes, I think that's. I think he's talking about Priscilla, which is really hilarious and cute.

[Matt]

It is. That's great. All right, so going back to 1938, but moving forward to February 18th, Tolkien writes to Stanley Unwin, whose son Rainer had read the first chapter of what would become the Lord of the Rings and was delighted with it. Tolkien writes, I am most grateful to your son Rainer and am encouraged. At the same time, I find it only too easy to write opening chapters, and for the moment, the story is not unfolding. I have unfortunately, very little time, made shorter by a rather disastrous Christmas vacation. I squandered so much on the original Hobbit, which was not meant to have a sequel, that it is difficult to find anything new in that world.

[Alan]

Not easy to find anything new in that world.

[Matt]

Yeah, right.

[Alan]

Come on. It's like what he said earlier.

[Matt]

I used it all. I used it all on the Hobbit. I've got nothing left.

[Alan]

All my motifs and all my favorite characters. I got nothing new in that story. The lie detector says that's a lie. All right.

[Matt]

Well, clearly he had plenty left in the tank.

[Alan]

He clearly did. Now, since this segment is this week in Tolkien history, I get to look ahead one full week. So in this case, to February 23, 1961, and a letter that a very angry Tolkien wrote to his publisher regarding the Swedish translation of the Lord of the Rings, specifically the introduction by the translator OKE Olmarks. He was steamed. I mean steamed. Tolkien opens by saying, I now enclose a copy and version of Olmark's nonsense in the hope that you may think it justifies my annoyance. I have not looked at his second outburst. I feel I cannot just now take anymore. He's so mad. Olmarx had written in the introduction that it is hard to believe that the deep rooted native born Hobbit from Middle South England would feel very much at home in Leeds. Inauguration into the Anglo Saxon chair in Oxford was for him like coming home again from a trial expedition up to the distant Fornost. Well, Tolkien calls this presumptuous impertinence. I mean, what a way with words. And he talks about how he was devoted to Leeds. They were good to him. The school was good to him, the kids there were good to him. And if this were to come to the attention of Leeds, Tolkien said it would give offense and Olmarks would have to publicly apologize. But here's another one Olmarks had also claimed the professor began by telling tales about it to his children, then to his grandchildren, then to. And they were fascinated and clamored for more. And still more. Tolkien does something I don't see very often. He begins his commentary with double exclamation marks. And then he writes, this is such outrageous nonsense that I should suspect mockery if I did not observe that Olmarks is ever ready to assume intimate knowledge that he has not got. I have only two grandchildren, one 18, who first heard of the book five years ago. The other is only two.

[Matt]

Oh, my God.

[Alan]

So he's making stuff up. Yeah. Now, here's the thing, though. If you've ever heard from this letter, and I'm actually pretty sure you have, because there's a famous quote from it, it is this next annoyance that you've likely heard. Olmarks had argued that the ring is, in a certain way, der Niebelungenring, that's the ring in Wagner's Ring cycle. And Tolkien famously commented, both rings were round and there the resemblance ceases. You've heard that line, right?

[Matt]

I think I have, yeah.

[Alan]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's because everybody's, oh, Tolkien's ring, Wagner's, R. Both rings were round and there the resemblance ceases. That was Tolkien's word on it. We're done.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And this sort of commentary wouldn't be complete without some sort of political allegory. Olmark says here in Mordor rules the personification of Satanic Might Sauron read, perhaps in the same partial fashion. Stalin.

[Alan]

Stalin. Oh, of course. Somebody had to think Sauron was Stalin.

[Matt]

Yes. And Tolkien was having none of it. He says, I utterly repudiate any such reading in quotes.

[Alan]

Readings, air quotes. I know.

[Matt]

Yes. Which angers me. The situation was conceived long before the Russian Revolution. Such allegory is entirely foreign to my thought. The placing of Mordor in the east was due to simple narrative and geographical necessity. Within my mythology, the original stronghold of evil was, as traditionally, in the north. But as that had been destroyed and was indeed under the sea, there had to be a new stronghold, far removed from the Valar, the Elves and the sea power of Numenor.

[Alan]

Exactly. It's got nothing to do with the east in the primary world, and it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Stalin. Well, finally, the last little bit of this week in Tolkien history, we're actually going to shift gears a little bit and make an adaptation connection. Normally we stick just biographical stuff, but this week in Tolkien history, on February 22, just 21 years ago, at the Screen Actors Guild Awards in 2004, the return of the King won for outstanding performance by a cast, and the award was accepted by the late Barnard Hill.

[Matt]

That is often my answer to my favorite character from the films is Bernard Hill.

[Alan]

Such a. I know. Such a fantastic role, and he brought that to life really incredibly well. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

I may not have liked the whole exorcism concept, but that wasn't him. You know, I don't blame him for that.

[Matt]

No, the effects were amazing on. They really were like how they. How they film that and everything changing him from old to young was.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Just.

[Alan]

Wow. That actually back then, really.

[Matt]

The fact that that is mostly in camera is wild, isn't it?

[Alan]

I know it's wild stuff, but yeah.

[Matt]

No. Bernard Hill, man, such a good job. Possibly my. My favorite performance in a. In a film full of amazing.

[Alan]

Yeah, that's the thing. I mean, the film was full of incredible work by the cast, but I felt the emotion of so many of his moments, you know, so it helps.

[Matt]

He gets. He gets to steal a lot of Eomer's lines from the book.

[Alan]

That's true. That's true.

[Matt]

It's like all of Aomer's best lines.

[Alan]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Matt]

Given to Theoden, which helps. Yeah, it does help, but, man. Yeah, I gotta say, like, it felt so right when. At the end of War of the Rohirrim. I don't know if you caught this when you were watching, but in the credits, it has a dedication to Bernard Hill. Yes.

[Alan]

Yes, I did catch that.

[Matt]

Which is awesome. It's also even more poignant is that I was interviewing Doug Adams, who wrote the music of the Lord of the Rings trilogy book and worked very closely with Howard Shore for both trilogies and revealed that Theoden actually doesn't have his own theme.

[Alan]

You're right.

[Matt]

Like, there is not a theme for the character of Theoden. And his. His theme is the Rohan theme.

[Alan]

Yes, it is.

[Matt]

Which is pretty awesome.

[Alan]

Well, that is some good stuff. That's what has been happening in this week in Tolkien history, but this week in Prancing Pony podcast history, we're going to be wrapping up the story of Ciaran and eorl. Matt, would you take the first reading in the tradition of Isildur?

[Matt]

Yes, the tradition of Isildur. It is said that when Isildur returned from the war of the Last alliance he remained for a time in Gondor ordering the realm and instructing Meneldil, his nephew before he himself departed to take up the kingship of Arnor. With Meneldil and a company of trusted friends he made a journey about the borders of all the lands to which Gondor laid claim. And as they were returning from the northern bound to Anorien they came to the high hill that was then called Aelinnire but was afterwards called Amon Anwar Hill of Awe. That was near to the center of the lands of Gondor. They made a path through the dense woods of its northward slopes and so came to its summit, which was green and treeless. There they made a level space, and at its eastward end they raised a mound. Within the mound, Isildur laid a casket that he bore with him. Then he said, this is a tomb and memorial of Elendil the Faithful. Here it shall stand at the midpoint of the Kingdom of the south in the keeping of the Valar while the kingdom endures. And this place shall be a hallow that none shall profane. Let no man disturb its silence and peace unless he be an heir of Elendil.

[Alan]

Well, I guess that lets me and you out.

[Matt]

Yep, sure does. You're not tall enough to be an heir of a Lindil, that's for sure.

[Alan]

No, that's definitely for sure. Now, this final section of Kirion and Aoral. This entire episode is entirely about the tradition of Isildur. And so we start with a look back at the very short time when Isildur was king. Right after the last Alliance.

[Matt]

Yeah, the text here says that he stayed in Gondor after the war for a time, getting everything in order. And he's also mentoring Meneldil at this time. That's the son of his brother Anarion, and he's already here, you know. He's planning to hand the rule in Gondor over to him when Isildur would then take Elendil's throne in Arnor.

[Alan]

Exactly. And let's take a closer look at that in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, right here in Unfinished Tales, a story that we'll get to next season. And there we read this in the first paragraph. After the fall of Sauron, Isildur, the son and heir of Elendil, returned to Gondor. There he assumed the Elendilmir as king of Arnor and proclaimed his sovereign lordship over all the Dunedain in the north and in the south for he was a man of great pride and vigor. He remained for a year in Gondor, restoring its order and defining its bounds. But the greater part of the army of Arnor returned to Eriador by the Numenorean road from the fords of Isen to Fornost.

[Matt]

Now, this part about restoring its order and defining its bounds points directly to the moment here in Cirion and Eor.

[Alan]

That's right.

[Matt]

In fact, the footnote to it explicitly says that, as is related in the tale of Cirion and Eorl, drawing on older histories now mostly lost for its account of the events that led to the Oath of Eorl and the alliance of Gondor with the Rohirrim.

[Alan]

I love that the reference to Ciaran and Eorl is in the footnote in the Disaster of the Gladden Fields. Now, later, after Isildur makes his decision to go north with a detour to Rivendell to pick up his wife and youngest son Valandil, he heads out so it was, as is told in the legends of later days, that the second year of the Third Age was waning, when Isildur set forth for Mosgiliath early in Evanneth, expecting to reach Imladris in 40 days. By mid Narbeleth, ere winter drew nigh in the north, at the east gate of the bridge on a bright morning, Meneldil bade him farewell. Go now with good speed, and may the sun of your setting out not cease to shine on your road. Now, just a couple of quick things to point out here to give you a bit more flavor on what's happening. Isildur is said to leave early in Ivanneth. That's the Sindarin name for the month of Yavanye, which corresponds to August 23rd to September 21st.

[Matt]

Yeah, the footnote actually says it's Yavani 5. So August 27th or so. The text also says he expects to reach Rivendell by mid Narbeleth. That would be the month of Narquella, September 22nd to October 21st. So mid Narboleth would be about October 6th.

[Alan]

That was the plan. Of course, that plan went awry. But you'll need to come back next season for the full story of the Disaster of the Gladden Fields.

[Matt]

Spoiler alert. It does not go well.

[Alan]

That's why it's called the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, Matt. And not the really cool things that happened in the Gladden Fields. The Celebration of the Gladdenfields.

[Matt]

The Delightful Picnic. Picnic of the Gladdenfields.

[Alan]

Yeah. No it's the disaster for a reason, Matt.

[Matt]

We also get a tiny bit about Meneldil in a footnote here which starts by reminding us that Meneldil was the nephew of Isildur, son of Isildur's younger brother Anarion, slain in the siege of Barad Dur. The note also explains that Isildur has at this point established Meneldil as King of Gondor.

[Alan]

You know, we keep mentioning Minelldil's name and I don't know about you, Matt, this keeps bringing to mind all those memes about, you know, is this a name from the Lord of the Rings or is this the name of a pharmaceutical? I mean, Minel Dill. That sounds so much more like a medication than a King of Gondor, right? I mean, side effects of an L Dil could include, you know, I mean, it's just talk to your doctor to see if Medelled is right for you.

[Matt]

That's, that's the line I was looking for. I was like, what's, what's a typical thing that's in all the ads and that' the one that's right.

[Alan]

I mean, wow, it's, I mean there are some other names like that, but Manelldi is definitely one of them. And speaking of kind of, well, not so kind things, I mean, comparing to medication is one thing. That same footnote has something sort of unkind to say about him. Sure, he was a man of courtesy, but far seeing and he did not reveal his thoughts. Okay, I don't see a problem with that. I mean, Kyrion kept his own counsel, right? And he goes back and nobody gives him a hard time that, you know, he didn't talk about what he was going to do to reward Arlies. But relevant to this story we read this little bit, he was in fact well pleased by the departure of Isildur and his sons and hoped that affairs in the north would keep them long occupied. In other words, I kind of like being the king. Y'all don't have to come back.

[Matt]

Christopher Tolkien adds that some unpublished stories which he would later publish in History of Middle Earth state that he was Aenarion's fourth child born in 3318 of the second age, making him 22 at the time of his father's death and 24 now in the story.

[Alan]

Okay, we also learn interestingly, just kind of as an aside, that Meneldil was the last man to be born in Numenor. He was a baby of about a year when he was carried on his father's ship to escape the Downfall. Now, going back to the text in Kyrion and Aora, we're leaving the disaster the Gladden Fields. Now, we now have a lot more context for this bit about how Isildur took Meneldil and a company of trusted friends on a road trip around the borders of his country.

[Matt]

And it's on that trip, as they're making their way back from the northern borders, that they come to the Hill of Awe. And of course, it's not the Hill of Awe just yet, as we've noted a couple times here.

[Alan]

Exactly. There's no reason for it to be the Hill of Awe. Now. If they find kittens on top, it's the Hill of Awe. Sorry.

[Matt]

Good joke, dad.

[Alan]

So anyway, all right, so last week, of course we mentioned its earlier name, and it's not Hill of Awe, it's Eilenire. We learn in the footnote here that that was a name of pre Numenorean origin, evidently related to a and in the nature of Middle Earth in the essay on the rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor. And no, we're not done with that yet. We read a bit further. Probably an alien name, not Sindarin, Numenorean or common speech. In true Sindarin, Alin could only be derived from Elian Alien and would normally be written E I L I E n, so clearly not the same origin.

[Matt]

These two mountains, Alinir and a Lanak, are the only names of the Beacon Hills that Tolkien says are certainly pre Numenorean. But a Lanak, the second of the seven Beacon Hills to the west of Amandine, was the only one to keep its pre Numenorean name, as Alinnair was changed to Amon Anwar in Gondor after this, and eventually became known as Halepyrian to the Rohirrim.

[Alan]

Of course, then we get the telling mention in the narrative that this hill was near to the center of the lands of Gondor. More on this in a second. But of course we've also talked about that from a map perspective. We described exactly where it fell and why that was at the time, the center of, or at least as close to the center of the lands of Gondor as you could get. They make their way up to the summit, and we see that it's a lot like what we looked at last week. It's green and treeless, just turf. But apparently it wasn't level at the time, because Isildur and his entourage made a level space before raising a mound and placing Elendil's casket in that mound. And I can't help but think that if they made a level space and it's all turf, that they probably played a game of football while they were up there.

[Matt]

What kind of football do you mean though? Do you mean like the British football?

[Alan]

Proper English football? Yeah. I don't mean they didn't bring any pads. So they're just kicking a football around.

[Matt]

Soccer ball, you know, Not a big soccer guy.

[Alan]

Wow. Okay, so they couldn't have been playing.

[Matt]

Sorry, guys.

[Alan]

All right, now here's the thing. Notice that when they talk about this, this mountaintop at the time, it doesn't look exactly like it looks earlier. Earlier in the story, which is later in time, right when we get to Carrion and are actually up there, not only was it not level, so they had to make a level space. There's no mention of Alfaren. But recall what Gandalf said when he, along with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli, was approaching Edoras at the foot of the walled hill. The way ran into the shadow of many mounds high and green upon their western sides. The grass was white as with a drifted snow. Small flowers sprang there like countless stars amid the turf. Muk, said Gandalf. How fair are the bright eyes in the grass. Evermind. They are called Cymbalmeona in this land of men, for they blossom in all the seasons of the year and grow a dead men rest. So it's no surprise that there's no Alpharen no Evermind here just yet. Because there's no dead men resting here yet.

[Matt]

No dead people. Yeah. Isildur then makes his declaration and hallows the peak of this hill. He reiterates that this spot is the midpoint of the kingdom of Gondor. And he also says a couple things that are echoed later in Cirion's oath that we read last week.

[Alan]

That's right. Specifically naming Elendil the faithful Elendil Vorondo, as Cirion said, and placing the location in the keeping of the Valar.

[Matt]

He also makes it clear this is not a place for anyone to visit. No one should come here ever except for the heirs of Elendil.

[Alan]

And we will get all rules lawyer about what that means right after the break. Matt, When I think about businesses that are just blowing up, you know, selling through the roof, like Allbirds Shoes or Gymshark where I bought some stuff, the first thing that hits me is that they sell a great product or maybe it's a cool brand. But something that people often overlook is the business behind the business that selling. And for shoppers buying simple. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.

[Matt]

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[Alan]

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[Matt]

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[Alan]

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[Matt]

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[Alan]

Of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, Taxes and fees extra C4 [e-mail] Now soon we'll get back to Isildur's instructions, but before we do, we want to remind you that there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter and more now.

[Alan]

On Facebook, just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get the news, but you're going to want to join the group to get involved in those great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there @r prancingponypod on Twitter and Instagram, we're simply prancingponypod.

[Alan]

And if you want daily Tolkien content, check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show. I've got everything from Word nerd Wednesdays to First Age Fridays. Be sure to check it out at YouTube.comtimes and follow Tolkien Times on all your social media.

[Matt]

All right, Alan, let's say we get back to the lands of Gondor.

[Alan]

I think we should. Or well, the lands that are not about to not be Gondor anymore, right?

[Matt]

Well, yeah, it's. The timeline's a little fuzzy. We're skipping back and forth a bit.

[Alan]

That's fair. They made a stone stair from the fringe of the woods up to the crown of the hill. And Isildur said, up this stair let no man climb save the king and those that he brings with him if he bids them follow him. Then all those present were sworn to secrecy. But Isildur gave this counsel to Meneldil that the king should visit the Hallow from time to time and especially when he felt the need of wisdom in days of danger or distress. And thither also, he should bring his heir when he was full grown to manhood and tell him of the making of the Hollow and reveal to him the secrets of the realm and other matters that he should know. Meneldil followed Isildur's counsel and all the kings that came after him until Romendacil I the fifth. After Meneldil, in his time, Gondor was first assailed by Easterlings. And lest the tradition should be broken because of war or sudden death or other misfortune he caused the tradition of Isildur to be set down in a sealed scroll together with other things that a new king should know. And this scroll was delivered by the steward to the king before his crowning. This delivery was, from then onwards, always performed though the custom of visiting the Hallow of Amon Anwar with his heir was maintained by nearly all the kings of Gondor.

[Matt]

All right, so we start this section with the building of the stone stairs. Now, this is the same one that Cirion told his most trusted servants about here on the show a couple weeks ago. You will come at length to the end of the trees and find a stone stair that leads on upwards.

[Alan]

And it's the same stair that they came back to again three months later with Eorl and his entourage. They came at last to the upper slopes of the hill and passed through a belt of white birches and saw the stone stair going up to the summit.

[Matt]

And Isildur, in keeping with his earlier command that no one disturb the silence and peace of the Hallow has a similar command about the stairs. No one should climb these stairs except the king and anyone the king brings with him.

[Alan]

And that's when we learned the first rule about the tomb of Elendil. Don't talk about the tomb of Elendil.

[Matt]

That's right. But you can bring a plus one, apparently.

[Alan]

Well, and you should bring a plus one when it's your heir. But we'll get to that.

[Matt]

That's right. Now, since the kings are allowed to go up, but the place is sacred, it's reasonable for someone following in Isildur's footsteps to wonder exactly when he's supposed to come up here.

[Alan]

Right.

[Matt]

Is this like the, you know, kind of the mental tarma in Numenor, you know, where the king would lead the people up three times a year?

[Alan]

Right.

[Matt]

Is this something the king should only visit in particular circumstances? Is it on the anniversary of things? What do we have?

[Alan]

Do I come on a particular date? Do I come when an event takes place?

[Matt]

If you see your shadow, is there more winter?

[Alan]

Yeah. Do we come up here to see if winter's going to be too long? Right, so Isildur gives his successor some advice. Come here from time to time. Thanks a lot, Uncle. That's still very vague. What do you mean from time to time? You know, it's an occasional thing. Right. You don't have to be every year. And it's not bound to a particular date. Right. So it doesn't have to be like on the anniversary of or anything like that. It's just from time to time. But come particularly when you need wisdom, which for us, Matt, would be like every other day. So I don't know how often we just have to live there.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

When you need wisdom, when you're stressed or the kingdom is in danger, and I like this, there's a bit of, maybe Elendil will speak to me. Right. And I love that because it really, really fits with what we read about this place long before we knew what was up here. Remember a few weeks ago that in the wood beneath the summit, there lay a silence, and a man would find himself speaking to his comrades in a whisper, as if he expected to hear the echo of a great voice that called from far away and long and really above your heads. Because he was like, 8ft tall.

[Matt]

Yeah, because he's a very tall guy.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And also, be sure to come here with your heir when he is old enough and tell him what happened here today.

[Alan]

That's right.

[Matt]

And also use that time and the significance of this place to discuss the secrets of the realm. Now, the big question is what?

[Alan]

What are those secrets of the realm? I mean, they're secrets, so I guess we don't know. They were never written down, but they.

[Matt]

Don'T put them in the archives at Minas Tirith.

[Alan]

Is this like, you know, here's. Here's the master password to the password manager.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's the password. The password is password.

[Alan]

Right?

[Matt]

Spoiler alert.

[Alan]

Password 1, 2, 3? Yeah, it's 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, 4. Don't you know? I mean, come on. It's got to be what the password is. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, what are some of the secrets of the realm? Do they have dirt on the council members?

[Matt]

Right? Oh, my gosh.

[Alan]

You know, No, I really don't know what sort of thing that they would keep from their heir until such a special moment, but there's got to be something. Area 51.

[Matt]

Mithrandir came in a meteor.

[Alan]

No, Mithrandir did not show up in a meteor. Wrong. Wrong.

[Matt]

That wasn't the secret. That wasn't the secret. Oh, man.

[Alan]

Man, no. I can't believe you even brought that in. Yeah. That was well done, though, actually. It was really well done. Yeah.

[Matt]

What? Yeah, I don't know. What other. What kind of secrets do rulers typically keep? They don't have nuclear codes here, Alan.

[Alan]

They do not have nuclear codes. That's fair. There are. I mean, everything that we read about is written down in the history. So it's all just speculation, but, you know, maybe just some advice, too, like what it's going to be like to rule the kingdom. But, you know, maybe it's.

[Matt]

Maybe it's like, oh, by the way, this is a weak spot in the geography of our defenses. We don't want to tell people about it. But you should know.

[Alan]

You should know. That's right. And definitely some sort of Area 51 equivalent. But, yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

All right. I don't know what the secret aliens are back. There we go. All right.

[Matt]

So Minel Dill, even though he was pretty happy to have Isildur leave, still followed his advice and brought his son Kimindur here.

[Alan]

And that tradition was followed by all the kings through Ramendakil I. He took the throne in third age 492. So almost 500 years. But at that time, there was a threat to Gondor in the form of the Easterlings.

[Matt]

Yeah. And back when you and dawn were covering the history of Gondor, you read that bit in the Appendices where it says it was Astohair, the seventh king, who rebuilt Minas Anor, where afterwards the kings dwelt in summer rather than Osgiliath in his time, Gondor was first attacked by wild men out of the east. But Tarostar, his son, defeated them and drove them out and took the name of Romendacil East. Victor.

[Alan]

That's right. But then, remember the tradition that we were told about when we covered Ondoher and his Death in battle with the Wainriders. This had always been the custom of Gondor, that the king, if he willed, should command his army in a major battle, provided that an heir with undisputed claim to the throne was left behind.

[Matt]

So we have a new threat, the first significant threat to Gondor since this moment here with Isildur beginning this tradition. Since the king's death could cause a break in this tradition of Isildur, Romendacil had this previously oral only tradition written down on a scroll.

[Alan]

Pretty wise, seeing as how he himself was later slain in battle with fresh hordes of Easterlings. Yeah, yeah. Now, fortunately, his son Turambar was already 144 at the time of Ramenda Kill's death. He'd already presumably been brought here and given the secrets of the realm by his father.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, I would think so. Still, knowing that this could happen with an heir that might be too young to have had this taken place, Romendacil wisely has this written down and sealed. The scroll would be handed to a new king right before he was crowned.

[Alan]

Crowned by the Steward. And it's the footnote to this that reminds us that it was also Ramenda Kill. Very forward thinking of him, who established the office of Steward. But this was long before the stewardship of the House of Hurin and the hereditary nature of the stewardship.

[Matt]

We also learn the qualifications of Stuart at the time this office was established, a man of high trust and wisdom. And that he was usually older because he wasn't allowed to go to war or even travel outside of Gondor. You know, kind of like how Alan.

[Alan]

Yeah, I knew there was something coming. Usually older. I'm like, oh, man, I'm. So why did I let him say that? Yeah, I just knew my. Oh, no, man, no. Yeah, he was usually older, Matt.

[Matt]

But he was wise. But he was wise, just like you, Allan.

[Alan]

You know, he wasn't allowed to travel outside of Gondor. I'm not there yet. I am allowed to travel. They haven't taken away my passport.

[Matt]

They even let you drive sometimes, I've heard.

[Alan]

Wow. Yeah, I guess if I take my medication. Thanks a lot, Matt. Tolkien adds that the Steward was never a member of the royal house. And that makes a lot of sense, right? Given his proximity to the throne and the influence that he would wield, you know, that creates a situation where you could have a conflict of interest.

[Matt]

So with this written safeguard in place, future kings still visited the Hallow with their heirs, but not all of them. The text says Nearly all the kings of Gondor did this. And this immediately makes one wonder which ones didn't.

[Alan]

Right?

[Matt]

Yeah. Tarannon Falastor was the first childless king. So he didn't even have an heir to take up there. So he's one that would not have.

[Alan]

Probably not. And of course he was married. By the way, do you remember who his wife is? Who the wife of Taranon Philostor was.

[Matt]

Was it Beruthiel?

[Alan]

Beruthiel, yes. Yeah. Crazy cat lady.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan]

That was her for sure.

[Matt]

Loveless marriage there.

[Alan]

Loveless marriage and childless marriage. And again, that's probably what you get when you marry somebody who was a black Numenorean. What are you doing, man? Anyway, I'm going to say other kings that didn't do it probably Atanatar II Alcaran. Right. The glorious. The guy that, you know, oh, precious stones are like pebbles in Gondor for children to play with. He enjoyed living in ease and splendor. And it was during his reign that the watch in Mordor was neglected. So he was probably too lazy to go. I would also add probably his two slacker sons, Right? Narmacil and Calmacil. Narmacil inherited the throne as the elder son but died without an heir after a 68 year reign. So he didn't have an heir to take up. And his brother inherited the throne. He only ruled for 10 years before he died.

[Matt]

Wow. Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

[Alan]

No, those three kings were not great.

[Matt]

Yeah. But his son Menalcar, I would bet re established this tradition. Yeah, he was the one who essentially ruled Gondor as its regent for 60 years or so before becoming king. Romanda kill II.

[Alan]

That's right. He was the one who had the Argonath built. Now I would say there's probably one other king that is pretty easy to say. He didn't go up here. Castamere the Usurper. You know, he had a short 10 year reign. Pretty sure he didn't care about going up to this spot. He might even know it existed because nobody told him. Right? Why would they? Why would they give him any of the secrets of the realm?

[Matt]

Right. Either that or he goes up there and he just hears Elendil whisper, go away. But Telemnar probably never had time. He'd only been king for two years when the plague wiped out his whole family.

[Alan]

Yeah. So he didn't really get a lot of time to take a vacation up there. And then Arnor. Right. The very last one. He didn't even have an heir to take up. So I. He didn't go. He was too busy trying. Let me at him. Let me add him. I want to go get him. You know, the Witch King. He keeps calling me. Ticket. I gotta go.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

Gosh, Earnur was way too busy to, you know, actually make his way to the Tradition of Isildur. All right. Well, Matt, I'd like to have you continue pick up the story where we left off, if you would.

[Matt]

All right, let's do it. When the days of the kings came to an end and Gondor was ruled by the stewards descended from Hurin the steward of King Minardil it was held that all the rights and duties of the kings were theirs until the Great King returns. But in the matter of the tradition of Isildur they alone were the judges since it was known only to them. They judged that by the words an heir of Elendil Isildur had meant one of the royal line descended from Elendil who had inherited the throne but that he did not foresee the rule of the stewards if then Mardil had exercised the authority of the king in his absence. The heirs of Mardil who had inherited the stewardship had the right and duty until a king returned. Each steward, therefore, had the right to visit the Hallow when he would and to admit to it those who came with him as he thought fit. As for the words while the kingdom endures they said that Gondor remained a kingdom ruled by a vice regent and that the words must therefore be held to mean as long as the state of Gondor endures. Nonetheless, the stewards partly from awe and partly from the cares of the kingdom went very seldom to the Hallow on the hill of Anwar except when they took their heir to the hilltop according to the custom of the kings. Sometimes it remained for several years unvisited and as Isildur had prayed, it was in the keeping of the Valar. For though the woods might grow tangled and be avoided by men because of the silence so that the upward path was lost still when the way was reopened the Hallow was found unweathered and unprofaned evergreen and at peace under the sky until the kingdom of Gondor was changed.

[Alan]

All right, then. Well, getting back to the beginning of the passage that you read, right? We were talking about the days of the kings coming to an end. Look, folks, you already know. The line of kings ended, right? Ondoher dies along with all of his sons. All of his sons. The two of them. Gondor needed to choose a new line. But instead of uniting the realms and having Arvedwi come down from Arthedain to become king, they choose the victorious Captain Earnil. He was also descended from a king, so that's fine. But his son Earnur was. Let's just say he was stronger than he was wise. Right. He goes off to single combat with the Witch King without leaving an heir. So no more kings.

[Matt]

Yeah. So Gondor came under the rule of the stewards. And you guys already covered the House of the Stewards several episodes back with Don Marshal. So it suffices to say that the text here about the stewards descended from Horan, the steward of King Minardil references the hereditary nature of the stewardship once Minardil chose his kinsman Hurin of Emyn Arnen to be his steward.

[Alan]

Now, that choice of Hurin by Minardil would have been made sometime between third age 1621 and 1634. Those are the years of Minardil's reign. But it would be more than 400 years after Hurin's stewardship, before his descendants in the House of Hurin became the ruling steward after Earnur's disappearance and presumed death.

[Matt]

And the first ruling steward is named here in the passage Mardil.

[Alan]

Right.

[Matt]

But before we get the mention of his name, we get an explanation about how the rights of the kings are in the hands of the stewards until the king returns.

[Alan]

It's really interesting. We get very rules, lawyer y. You know.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan]

Interpreting things. This is really interesting stuff. But of course, they realize they're the only ones who could decide about the tradition of Isildur, because nobody else knew. So they couldn't discuss this with the Council. They couldn't discuss this with the other nobles in Gondor. They're sort of in between a rock and a hard place. There's nobody that they can bounce these ideas off of because they're sworn to secrecy, but they're also not the king. So they got to figure out what are they going to do.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we get a good look at their explanation, or if you disagree with them, maybe you'd call it a rationalization as to why they can take part in this. They interpreted Isildur's words, an heir of Elendil correctly, if even a bit narrowly. Royal descent. Yes, but also who had inherited the throne. So even an heir who was, let's say, second or third in line would not count.

[Alan]

Right. So where does that leave the stewards? Well, they figure that Isildur had not and indeed could not have predicted that the line of kings would end and that Gondor would be ruled by the House of the Stewards. Well, should he have been able to predict that? I mean, could he have? But what if he meant this literally? Right? What if he really means only heirs of Elendil and the minute Elendil's line fails, nobody should.

[Matt]

Nobody should go up there.

[Alan]

I mean, they're really giving themselves the right. It's interesting. They argue and give themselves the right to do it, and then they don't go right when they have to. Right.

[Matt]

Well, and then, like, if that was the case, then Elendil's tomb would still be up there.

[Alan]

Yeah, it would still be up there.

[Matt]

Carrion would never have moved it.

[Alan]

No. They would have done the oath some other place.

[Matt]

So then Elendil would. Would kind of be living in Rohan or be resting in Rohan, you know?

[Alan]

Yeah, right.

[Matt]

Which would be kind of weird. Yeah, yeah. You'd be like, right on the border. But, yeah, it's like.

[Alan]

It's just an interesting thing. Like, what should they have done? What would a more conservative steward have done? Like, oh, I don't have the right to do this. But I suppose that for generations now, the stewards have been ruling when the kings are gone. Right. When a king is out of town, the steward is ruling in the king's stead in their name and doing things that they're supposed to. So, I don't know. Just really interesting. So enter Mar del Voronwe. Right. I mean, that's.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

So first, let's note his epithet. Right. It means the steadfast. And we just saw this word recently in Kyrion's oath. Ar Elendil Verondo Veronwe, which meant and of the faith of Elendil the faithful.

[Matt]

Since he had all the powers of the king and fulfilled the king's duties in his absence. And since the stewards rule in hereditary fashion, I. E. A line of pseudo royal descent, Mardil's heirs would have the same rights and duties that the king would have.

[Alan]

So that would mean that an heir of Mardil who had inherited the White Staff, because, remember, you were only an heir of Elendil not just if you were descended from Elendil, but if you were descended from Elendil and took the throne. So an heir of Mardell would be somebody who was not only a descendant of Mardyll, but had inherited the White Staff. Therefore, they would have the right to go here to the Hollow and the duty to pass on knowledge of the Hollow in that story to his heir and so on. But then they also. To interpret another phrase and it's an important one, while the kingdom endures. And this one is a bit easier. Right. As long as it is a kingdom, even if it's not ruled by a king. That makes sense. So they're interpreting it to mean that as long as the nation of Gondor or exists. Well, I suppose, really, as long as the nation in its current government form. Right. If for some reason God or decided to become a democracy and there's no more king then something has to happen with the Hollow. But for now, as long as the nation stays what it is, the stewards can go.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Just because they could didn't mean that they did, though.

[Alan]

Exactly. Right.

[Matt]

You know, sure, they. They still came when they were required to. To take their heir up there and initiate them into the trad of a seal door. But for a couple reasons, they just didn't go. More than that. The text says it was partly from awe and partly because they were too busy ruling Gondor.

[Alan]

Got a job to do, man. Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Matt]

I mean, you're the ruling steward. It's like, you don't have a steward. Steward.

[Alan]

That's the thing about that. Do they have, like, steward.

[Matt]

That's a good question.

[Alan]

Right? Like steward assistance.

[Matt]

Who's next up? Yeah, who's the speaker of the House there? You know, what is that?

[Alan]

Who's in charge? Right. I mean, we just read about how the stewards or the kings were in charge. The stewards were not allowed to travel outside of Gondor and they were usually older because they weren't allowed to go to war. Well, now that the stewards are taking the place of the kings, they have to go. Right. They have to lead just like a king would. So they've got to have somebody. I mean, I guess the council rules maybe in their stead. The entirety of the council. I don't know.

[Matt]

Yeah, maybe.

[Alan]

It's an interesting question. There's certainly nothing in any of the stories. Yeah.

[Matt]

There's gonna say it's pure hypothesis. Steward. Do we have the assistant to the steward?

[Alan]

Steward JG you know, junior grade, you know, I don't know. It's a really interesting question. There's got to be some sort of structure in place because clearly a steward would then lead.

[Matt]

I mean, Kyrion was in battle, you know.

[Alan]

Right. Kyrion was in battle. He was gone for weeks, you know, and dealing with this. So. Yeah, yeah, it's. It's an interesting question. It also was a long journey for Minas Tirith. I mean, sure, it was just as long a journey for the kings, but, I mean, they're gone for so long. If they were to come here, it would be. Yeah, at least a couple of weeks, even. If they were just to come here.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

And spend a day, camp on the hilltop.

[Matt]

Unless they're, like, booking it, you know, like in a rush.

[Alan]

But it's just wild. I don't know. Interesting question, though. You're right.

[Matt]

Back in a week or so and.

[Alan]

Right. I'm sure nothing would go wrong where.

[Matt]

It'S like, man, I can't leave for.

[Alan]

An hour without something burning down around me.

[Matt]

Especially if it's a secret. It's like, where are you going? I can't tell you that.

[Alan]

Yeah, I can't. Absolutely can't.

[Matt]

I'm just going to be gone for a week. Don't worry about it.

[Alan]

Wow. Yeah. Things we can't say for 500. I'm just going to be gone for a week, and I can't tell you where I'm sure my kids will be. Like, you're doing what now? All right. Well, because they only went when they had to, or rarely went, except then it would become years between visits, and so you'd think that the place would get all weedy and overgrown.

[Matt]

Yeah. But no Isildur's Prayer that this place would be cared for and watched over by the Valar. You know, Recall it said, here it shall stand in the keeping of the Valar while the kingdom endures. Well, that was answered, apparently.

[Alan]

Yeah, it was answered. The Valar sent their groundskeeping maia to tend to the place, it seems. You know, even though the trees would grow and block the path up to the hilltop, the Hollow itself was always untouched and looked like it had been freshly mowed.

[Matt]

Nice and manicured lawn. Yeah.

[Alan]

You know, I'm so tempted to just get up there and kick a ball.

[Matt]

Around, you know, of course, that is, until the Kingdom of Gondor was changed. And for more on that, well, you'll have to stick around after the break.

[Alan]

Yep. Absolutely. Have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into the carton? And time just stands still. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it at Progressive Dot, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match, limited by state law. Not available in all states. Now, folks, if you're enjoying the ppp. Please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. It's what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show better. Every season when you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episode recordings and hangouts. Every month we actually just did a hangout and this is a live episode recording. You also get episode postscripts, ad free episodes, free merch, and more.

[Matt]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the North Wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan]

And you can also help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating over on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends.

[Matt]

All right, we've got one last reading for Kyrion and Eorl. Alan, take it away.

[Alan]

All right, I'll close this out for it came to pass that Kirion, the 12th of the ruling stewards, was faced by a new and great danger. Invaders threatened the conquest of all the lands of Gondor north of the White Mountains, and if that were to happen, the downfall and destruction of the whole kingdom must soon follow. As is known in the histories, this peril was averted only by the aid of the Rohirrim, and to them Cirion with great wisdom granted all the northern lands save an Orion, to be under their own rule and king. Though in perpetual alliance with Gondor, there were no longer sufficient men in the realm to people the northward region, nor even to maintain in force the line of forts along the Anduin that had guarded its eastward boundary. Cirion gave long thought to this matter before he granted Calenardhon to the Horsemen of the north, and he judged that its cession must change wholly the tradition of Isildur with regard to the hallow of Amon Anwar to that place he brought the Lord of the Rohirrim, and there, by the mound of Elendil, he with the greatest solemnity, took the oath of Eorl, and was answered by the oath of Cirion, confirming forever the alliance of the Kingdoms of the Rohirrim and of Gondor. But when this was done, and Eorl had returned to the north to bring back all his people to their new dwelling, Cirion removed the tomb of Elendil, for he judged that the tradition of Isildur was now made void. The Hallow was no longer at the midpoint of the Kingdom of the south, but on the borders of another realm and moreover, the words while the kingdom endures referred to the kingdom as it was when Isildur spoke after surveying its bounds and defining them. It was true that other parts of the kingdom had been lost since that day. Minas Ithil was in the hands of the Nazgul and Ithilien was desolate. But Gondor had not relinquished its claim to them. Calenardhon, it had resigned forever under oath. The casket, therefore, that Isildur had set within the mound Cirion removed to the hollows of Minas Tirith. But the green mound remained as the memorial of a memorial nonetheless. Even when it had become the site of a great beacon the Hill of Anwar was still a place of reverence to Gondor and to the Rohirrim who named it in their own tongue, Haloferion, the holy mount.

[Matt]

And that's where we fast forward from the early Stewards to where we started this story. Cirion and the threat he faced from the Balcoth, Wainriders, Easterlings, whatever they're called.

[Alan]

And we're reminded of the genuinely existential nature of this threat. Had the Balchoth been successful in their invasion of Calenardhon and Anorian. That's the lands of Gondor north of the White Mountains that the text mentions. The rest of Gondor would be next. This was a huge threat. I mean, look, Gondor has faced threats before. The Corsair raids along the coast are not, you know, a small problem, but they're not really an existential problem. Corsairs aren't coming to take the land the Valkoth are coming to occupy and then to destroy what's left.

[Matt]

I mean, we see them occupy rhovanion for 40 plus years.

[Alan]

Generations. Exactly.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

And that's the thing. If they get themselves established in Calenard and take over that region. Okay, fine, you've lost some land. No, what you now have is a foe that wants to wipe you out that's now sitting there in peace, growing and growing and getting stronger. When they get strong enough, they're going to come down and wipe you out.

[Matt]

Yeah. Not great. So then in the text here, we're given the summary of, well, the last few episodes, really. We've got Cirion's foresight in asking Aorl and the Aotheod to come to their aid and giving them Kali Nardhon as a free gift, but with an eternal alliance.

[Alan]

I love that. And, you know, we already talked at length about how Kirion had thought through this whole matter, Right? His geopolitical wisdom in bringing an allied people down here giving sort of a win win, you know, because remember, they were in. In dire straits up there. They had too many numbers, the land wasn't fertile enough. They needed to move. Gondor needed an ally nearby and they wanted their friends closer. So, you know, it was a real win win. Kyrion's a thoughtful guy. He thinks this stuff through. And here he was also forward thinking about how the gift of Calenardhon would impact the tradition of a Seldor.

[Matt]

Yeah. And he knew before he gave Calenardhon to Eorl and his people that it would completely change this tradition of Isildur.

[Alan]

That's right. And it even seems that knowing this fact and what would then have to come of it afterwards might actually have been one of the reasons that he chose this place for the exchange of oaths. Right. I mean, because now the nature of this place is going to change after we do this.

[Matt]

Yeah. You know, he obviously knew that once these oaths were exchanged and Eorl went back north to get his people, he would kind of have to remove the tomb of Elendil.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

After all, this location was no longer the midpoint of the Kingdom of the south. And in fact, it was on the border of another country altogether.

[Alan]

Exactly. And beyond that, he even interpreted while the Kingdom endures as being key to this change as well. He reasoned that Isildur meant the kingdom as it was at the time that he spoke. Now, I don't know about you, I kind of feel like that's a stretch. I don't think that's what Isildur meant.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

I also think it's okay. He doesn't need a reason beyond the fact that it's no longer the midpoint of the Kingdom of the South.

[Matt]

Right? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think so too. I think it just. Like I said earlier, it just feels kind of odd to have your kind of greatest forefather buried on the border. Yeah. It almost be like if you were ashamed of him, it's like how far away.

[Alan]

We basically almost banished him. Right?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

It's like we'll. We'll leave him technically on our property, but at the very edge.

[Alan]

Put him out on the south 40 over by the fence.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah. Turning to the text here. Therefore, since the entire region of colinarthon was being given away forever.

[Alan]

Right.

[Matt]

The kingdom wasn't the same as it was in the days of Isildur is what we're getting at here with Kyrion.

[Alan]

Exactly. I do like the distinction that he makes about the other lost Lands. Right. I mean. Yeah. Ithilien is gone. Minas Ithil is actually in enemy hands. But Gondor hadn't given up those lands. Right. They still had claim to them. And in fact, we know they eventually take them back after King Elessar comes to power. Eventually, Minas Ithil gets cleaned up and. And certainly a thillion gets repopulated because they get their own Prince Faramir.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan]

And so, yeah, I mean, it's a little different here, isn't it?

[Matt]

Yeah, I think it's definitely different, you know, because here he's granting Kalinarthon by oath to another people.

[Alan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Matt]

You know, it's done making this. Yeah. This is a separate and independent nation.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, that's entirely different. And I. I do think it changes the kingdom in this context.

[Alan]

That's fair. I mean, yeah, sure, it feels a bit rules lawyer y. But, you know, it makes sense. Kyrion's taking his role, his powers, his duties and obligations very, very seriously. And I do like how thoughtful he is on this. Interestingly here, Kyrion is said to remove the tomb after Aora left to go north. But in the drafts, he originally moved it a bit sooner, going back to the rivers and beacon hills of Gondor. In the nature of Middle Earth, we read by this agreement. Originally, only a small part of the wood west of the Meringue Stream was included in Rohan. But the hill of Anwar was declared by Cirion to be now a hallowed place of both peoples. And any of them might now ascend to its summit with the leave of the King of the Eotheod or the Steward of Gondor. For the following day, after the taking of the oaths, Cirion and Eora, with 12 men ascended the hill again, and Cirion let open the tomb. It is fitting now at last, he said, that the remains of the Father of Kings should be brought to safekeeping in the hallows of Minas Tirith. Doubtless, had he come back from the war, his tomb would have been far away in the north. But Arnor is withered and Forlost is desolate. And the heirs of Isildur have gone into the shadows and no word of them has come to us for many lives of men.

[Matt]

Now, Christopher Tolkien adds that right after this, his father quit writing and grabbed a new piece of paper and then wrote the text as it stands in Unfinished Tales, postponing the opening of the tomb and the removal of the remains of Elendil to Minas Tirith to a later point in the story.

[Alan]

I love that. I love that we're able to See that thought process at work, Christopher Tolkie.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Well, here. My dad stopped writing on this piece of paper. He grabbed a new piece of paper and. No, nope, nope. I'm changing the story to this.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

We're going to move the tomb later after a oral heads off.

[Matt]

My favorite ones are when, like, Christopher will determine when something was written by the type of typewriter or the type of paper that he was using. Like this must have been in 1941, because he's using this typewriter.

[Alan]

Exactly. I love that. Or sometimes it's through the fact that on the backside of it is a document that he does know is written in a particular period of time, you know?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

I also like it, though, when he says, I had no idea what my dad said here, I can't read his handwriting. It's totally illegible. And yeah, it often is. So it is true that, you know what Carrion says here, that no word had come to them for many lives of men. That last word with Arnor would have been actually Arthedine would have been from arved. We in third age, 1974, more than 500 years before this. That entire time, the Dunedin of the north, the Rangers, have obviously not been in communication with Gondor.

[Matt]

It's a long time.

[Alan]

500 years. I mean, I'm thinking, okay, that's 1524 from now, or 1525. Man, that's a long time ago. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. Wow.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

So Kyrion here, he moves Elendil's tomb. You know, that must have been quite the undertaking. You know, not just an engineering thing, but a spiritual thing as well. You know, this is essentially the father of their nation or, you know. Yeah, the father of the fathers of their nation, I guess you could say.

[Alan]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean. Yeah, that's true. I mean, he and his sons established. Well, I guess he established Arnor. Actually, his sons established Gondor. So you're right. The father of the fathers of the kingdom. Yeah, it's quite the thing. And part of me wants to understand this from a practical perspective. Like, how did they do this? Did they bring a pretty big wagon up there to. To bring the casket back to Minas Tirith? Were there procedures and things sort of, you know, like. Like we have. When a president or a senator or a sitting justice on the Supreme Court passes away and they lie in state in the rotunda at the capitol building and there's. There's a lot of, you know, formality and ceremony and you sort of wonder. I mean, they didn't just dig Them up and go like, well, let's take them all back in the. Administer now. I mean, you know. You know, throw them over your shoulder. Let's go. I mean, no, they would have. This would have been. I mean, I don't really want to draw religious parallels, but, I mean, probably.

[Matt]

Would have been very reverential, though.

[Alan]

That's what I'm thinking. I mean, somewhere between let's throw them in a sack and carry him back home and Israelites carrying the ark. You know what I mean?

[Matt]

Somewhere. Yeah.

[Alan]

Somewhere between those two extremes.

[Matt]

I think it's probably closer to the latter, too.

[Alan]

Closer to the latter in the sense that there's a ton of reverence, a ton of awe. Right. The hill of awe. And that awe is going to be traveling with them as they head back to.

[Matt]

No, I'm sure it was like a host of people accompanying it, you know.

[Alan]

Yeah. What an interesting thing that would have been.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

So, you know, he moves it and, of course, where else is he going to move it? He moves it to the Hallows in Minas Tirith, where the kings and the stewards have all been buried. That totally makes sense. Like he said in the draft that didn't make it into the final version, he undoubtedly would have been buried there in the first place had he come back for more, had he returned. So there you go. And, you know, I also like the fact that he left the mound even without the casket in it. He left the mound as a mound, as the memorial of a memorial. I find that beautiful.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

And then I have questions like, I want to know, can anybody go here now? Do we still have to keep this place a secret? Can anybody go and be at the place that once served as the tomb of Elendil?

[Matt]

Probably, like, charge admission now, if they.

[Alan]

No, they're not going to turn it into a state park, are they?

[Matt]

State park.

[Alan]

They're going to put a blue plaque up. This place was once the tomb of Elendil, man. That's just.

[Matt]

Well, we know that that's where Aragorn and Eomer would renew the oaths, right?

[Alan]

That is correct. You're 100% correct. That is where they go, even though the tomb is no longer there. They go to the.

[Matt]

But they go to the spot for the, you know, the historical significance of.

[Alan]

It, and there it's. The historical significance of the oath.

[Matt]

Of the oath, yes. Yeah.

[Alan]

Which is interesting, Right?

[Matt]

Yeah. I do like the idea that, you know, not only is Elendil, you know, we've got Elendil, Aragorn, like, all These people and Mary and Pippin also get buried, you know, get laid to rest in the Hallows of Minas Tirith.

[Alan]

I know. I love that.

[Matt]

That's pretty great.

[Alan]

That is pretty great.

[Matt]

Same place as a Lendill like day.

[Alan]

I doubt they're in the same wing.

[Matt]

No, they're not. I mean, there's. There's. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there's. It's like the hall of Fame. Like, you know, they go by year.

[Alan]

You know, they go by year. Well, they don't do it by height, that's for sure.

[Matt]

They don't.

[Alan]

They get their own level. Way below, they're in the basement. But they're still in the Hallows. Yeah.

[Matt]

Yeah. So still, as you can imagine, even after Elendil's tomb was moved, you know, this is still a very reverential and awe inspiring location.

[Alan]

It really is. I mean, the history. Now, it's not just the history of the tomb of Elendil, it's the history of the Oath of Kirion. Yeah. To the point that the Rohirrim even named it the Holy Mountain. Right. It's what it says on the tin.

[Matt]

I like how for them it's a mountain, but for Gondor, they call it a hill.

[Alan]

A hill. That's right. That's fair. I mean, these are horse people who live in the Horse People.

[Matt]

They do the plains. Yeah.

[Alan]

Whoa. Look at that mountain light up. Gradient is now a mountain. So, I mean, I think. Though, of course, one of the reasons they call it a holy mountain is not so much about that. Elendil's tomb was once there. It's that their nation began there.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan]

The oaths were exchanged at this place. So.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Well, the bag, therefore, that Barlaman had set within the Mound, Cirion removed to the common room at the Pony. But the green mound remained as the memorial of a lot of mail. Matt, what does Barlman have for us tonight besides more awful, awful mailbag segues?

[Matt]

They just keep coming.

[Alan]

They do.

[Matt]

I feel like they get longer, too.

[Alan]

They do. I think next time I'm going to do the entire last paragraph.

[Matt]

You might as well. Yeah. So Barlowman has a message for us from Rodney from Illinois. Rodney says, I just saw War of the Rohirrim last night and really liked it. It dare I hope that this is a good sign for Hunt for Gollum. What are your hopes and fears for it? What do you want to see and what do you not want to see?

[Alan]

I definitely don't want to see CG generated characters that I don't want to see a young Legolas being younger.

[Matt]

You know, like, the face swap thing.

[Alan]

The face swap thing. I don't want to, like, CG and AI characters. I don't want to see AI anything, frankly.

[Matt]

Yeah, no, no. I. I still am scarred from seeing, like, especially season. Season two of Mandalorian. Luke Skywalker, I think it is.

[Alan]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

That was season two. Yeah. I think it's the end of season two where he shows up and he's got like, just those soulless eyes and plastic face and I'm like, please don't do that.

[Alan]

Yeah, don't do that. Please don't do that. So I think it's probably easier for me to talk about my fears and my hopes. Is that terrible?

[Matt]

No, that's.

[Alan]

Have I been scarred and traumatized by.

[Matt]

I think that's where a lot of fans go to after, you know.

[Alan]

Well, I've been burned by the Battle of the Five Armies and. And also burned in some ways by at least some of the storylines in Rings of Power.

[Matt]

Yeah, perfect. We talked about this during the last hangout, but I think Ian McKellen coming back would like. I'd take that any day of the week.

[Alan]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think he can be, you know, so long and. Please, I'm just saying this, knock on wood. So long as he's actually still alive. No grand moff targeting of Gandalf.

[Matt]

Yeah, no, no, no. I don't think that's. Like he said, as long as he's around, he wants to play Gandalf, which I'm like.

[Alan]

And he can because they don't have to de Age him. Him. He's.

[Matt]

No, he's old.

[Alan]

So what? Gandalf's old?

[Matt]

I mean, it's like what he has. He has like five more wrinkles than he did during the Hobbit or whatever. Like, who cares? Like, he's old. Like, there is a certain trade off that you make. And I. I make the same argument. Like, you know, they can do some pretty amazing things with especially Weta. I mean, I can do anything.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, but like, if they were able to with makeup, make Vigo look younger, like young, close enough, I would be okay with him playing Aragorn. But it depends. It depends on how he look. You know, how he looks with the makeup and stuff. And, like, you could do a little digital d. Aging. Just as long as you're not doing the whole face swap thing. Yeah, that face swap thing, that's where it's in Uncanny valley.

[Alan]

Yep, yep.

[Matt]

So, yeah, that's that's one of the things where it's like, on one hand, I would be like, oh, Viggo's coming back. I love Vigo. I'd be excited. But then I'd also be like, viggo's coming back. How's that going to work? I'm a little nervous about that.

[Alan]

You know, I, I also think, like, I would love to see a whole new cast get a chance at this. I really would. I mean, except for maybe Ian McKellen.

[Matt]

Yeah, right.

[Alan]

No, who are you going to get? Who's going to be like, yeah, I'll try to tackle that role?

[Matt]

No, as long as if Ian McKellen is alive and wants to do it, then I'm like, come on in, buddy. Come on, do it. But, yeah, no, I've, I've seen some, some folks kicking around ideas for, you know, someone younger, Ish. Who could play Aragorn. I saw someone post Andrew Lincoln. He was in the Walking Dead is what I'm mainly known for. British actor who in the Walking Dead is. Does an American accent, but.

[Alan]

Yeah, I love that.

[Matt]

Yeah. No, I had no idea that he.

[Alan]

British or Australian actors do American accents.

[Matt]

Yeah, you watch him in the. Behind the scenes and you're like, what the heck? Yeah, but, yeah, he was one where I was like, oh, like, he's got the acting chops I could see him pulling off. But okay. Yeah, so I, I think there's, there's definitely opportunity for, for new actors for, for certain roles.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

I will say that I, I hope that a lot of this does focus on Aragorn. Honestly, I think he's got.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Like, it's kind of up in the air right now. Like, I've heard things kind of both ways, whether, you know, the hunt for Gollum. If it's about the hunt for Gollum, then it's presumably going to be a lot about Aragorn.

[Alan]

Yeah, about Aragorn. Right.

[Matt]

If it's focused on Gollum, which I.

[Alan]

Think it's going to be, I mean, it's.

[Matt]

Which. See, that's what scares me.

[Alan]

That's a fear of mine.

[Matt]

I'm. Yeah, I'm scared of getting too much Gollum. It's kind of like the getting too much Jack Sparrow in Pirates of the Caribbean.

[Alan]

Yeah, you can overdose. I mean, it needs to be in an appropriate amount. I have some hopes that it'll be that way only because he's also directing and so he's going to be too busy to star 50% of his movie.

[Matt]

Oh, that's a good Point.

[Alan]

So maybe, maybe. But yeah, it should focus primarily on Aragorn and give us, I think so, you know, some Gandalf, some Gollum, some Thranduil. There's another returning cast member I would have no problem with. Lee Pace coming back to play Thranduil.

[Matt]

Oh, he's fantastic. Is thrown.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

The attitude like, oh, he's such a diva.

[Alan]

He's great.

[Matt]

He's the closest thing to like a first age elf I feel like we've seen.

[Alan]

Like he really does get the thing all feel, doesn't he?

[Matt]

He does, yeah.

[Alan]

That haughty like that.

[Matt]

Yes. Like you are so freaking stuck up, man. So full of yourself.

[Alan]

No, he really is.

[Matt]

He just does it so well. You can't help but appreciate it.

[Alan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's really good.

[Matt]

I'm patient. I can wait.

[Alan]

And because elves are, well, not immortal. Surly Longeval, I have no problem with him playing that role.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

Yeah. Mostly because I'd like to see him again without ever having to subject myself to the Hobbit. Let's just be clear. Can we say that in all honesty. Yes, we can. What do I hope for? I hope that Howard Shore comes back. I really, really hope that Howard Shore does the music for it. So, so good.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan]

I mean even though the Hobbit film score was not quite up to the same, you know, it's awesomeness. Really, really good. I mean if, if you'd never heard the Lord of the Rings score and you only heard the Hobbit scores, it's really good. It says that you're comparing it to one of the very best scores ever.

[Matt]

But I mean I still will can hum from memory Hobbit scores as well. Like the Lake Town theme is one of my favorites. And obviously the. The Misty Mountains.

[Alan]

Oh, the songs.

[Matt]

Like.

[Alan]

Oh, I love that.

[Matt]

Oh, it's so good.

[Alan]

I know now that stuck in my head. Yes. I hope Howard Shore comes back.

[Matt]

Yeah. I could also see like. Like how good would Lee Pace as Thranduil? You know Thranduil's reaction.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

To seeing Gollum for the first time. Oh, like how repulsed would he be?

[Alan]

So repulsed by dwarves. I mean, by the King of the Dwarves.

[Matt]

Yeah. Like you bring this wretched creature into my house and you want me to keep him here?

[Alan]

You want me to what? Gandalf, you asked too much. Yeah. What do I hope? I do think I Hope for Ian McKellen and Lee Pace, but I also hope for a whole new cast. Other than that, I hope for Howard Shore. I hope for no AI, no Face or place, you know?

[Matt]

Yeah, the.

[Alan]

No.

[Matt]

No creepy stuff.

[Alan]

Governor Tarkin, you know, Grand Moff Tarkin, I should say. No. Princess Leia at the end of Rogue One. Yeah, I don't want to see that. I don't know.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think. Yeah, I. Yeah, I'm pretty. Pretty on the same page, except for, like, I'm willing to see, like, if. If they judge, like, practical makeup and maybe slight digital makeup on vgo and it. And it works.

[Alan]

You're okay with that? I'm a little less okay with vegan.

[Matt]

Because I'm like, okay, he looks a little bit older. Like, I can suspend disbelief enough, you know, Because, I mean, he was no spring chicken when they made Lord of the Rings. Like, he was in his 40s already, so it's not like a minute.

[Alan]

What are you saying about spring chickens, dude?

[Matt]

I'm. I'm 40. I'm just saying, like. I'm just saying.

[Alan]

I feel like you're setting up an old joke here.

[Matt]

Well, no, I feel like there's a bigger difference. You know, when you look like Orlando Bloom, who is, like, 18, you know, when he made Lord of the Rings.

[Alan]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And then, you know, if he were to come back now, like, oh, he's 40, you know, like, he's gonna look it. Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't know how. How that works. Like. No, because he's, you know, somebody who.

[Alan]

Wasn'T youthful to begin with.

[Matt]

Like, Aragorn was already, you know, he was playing an 87 year old.

[Alan]

That's right. He was playing an 87 year old. Who. Who knew when he didn't like a stew.

[Matt]

Although, technically, as. As Tom Shippy has pointed out, he was 88.

[Alan]

That's right.

[Matt]

Because it was after March 1st. But, yeah. So he's got range, man. Like, he played 88 at 40. Like, he could play 87. He's gonna be 87 or 86.

[Alan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

At 65. Like, he still got years, man.

[Alan]

He does. He does. Oh, man. Good stuff. Good question. And I am looking forward to it. I think it's fair to say, given who's putting it together. I'm not even cautiously optimistic. I'm just optimistic.

[Matt]

Yeah, no, I think. And, you know, we're not going to get into spoilers because we'll. We will have had that with the Rohirrim review and stuff, but after watching it, I. I actually felt, like, confidence going forward with these. Sorry, I'm not going to spoil anything. Just after watching it, I was like, all right, giddy up, let's go.

[Alan]

That's right.

[Matt]

Let's get some more movies. I'm ready. I'm ready.

[Alan]

All right, I'm ready too. And folks, that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony Podcast. But please be sure to come back next week when we start another Rohirric digression as we begin our look at the battles of the Fords of Eisen.

[Matt]

That's right. And Alan and I, of course, want to thank all the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells, Marlam and Becca Davis, social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon, community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins, and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan]

Now, please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com that's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony ponderings, and our online storefront where you can get PPP merch, including all the really cool episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show over the last two plus seasons.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books, so if you're interested in a book we mentioned on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase, and we thank you for that.

[Alan]

Indeed we do. And we also want to thank our patrons at the Cairdance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in New Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, and Erica in Texas.

[Matt]

There's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Ann in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for your support.

[Alan]

Indeed. Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments and most of all, your camping tips for the Haloferian to barnum@the.

[Matt]

Brancingponypodcast.Com and if you want your voice literally heard? Well, just send us audio of your question. Visit pod inbox.com prancingponypod to record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barlaman, though.

[Alan]

That's right. Now, even though Barliman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of of mail for us to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners. But until next time, this is the end.

[Matt]

We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.

[Alan]

Sa.