360 – Climb Every Eyot

Summary

The Prancing Pony Podcast Episode 360: "Climb Every Eyot"

Release Date: February 23, 2025
Hosts: Alan Sisto and Matt
Podcast Description: A weekly deep dive into J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle-earth, blending detailed analysis with humor and pop culture references.

---

1. Introduction

In Episode 360, titled "Climb Every Eyot," Alan Sisto and Matt delve into a pivotal moment within Tolkien's legendarium: the First Battle of the Fords of Isen, as depicted in Unfinished Tales. The episode promises a blend of scholarly analysis, engaging discussions, and the signature humor that fans have come to love over nine seasons.

---

2. North Wing: Listener Spotlight with Erica Bau

Guest: Erica Bau
Timestamp: [02:49] - [09:01]

Alan and Matt welcome Erica Bau, a dedicated Tolkien enthusiast, to the North Wing segment—a special feature reserved for patrons at the Elronds Honorarium and K Dan's contribution tiers.

• Background:
  Erica, hailing from Texas, is a retired Air Force member now working with the federal government to support the Air Force. Her passion for Tolkien was ignited by her late mother, who introduced her to the works. Erica shares, “I was always ahead of everybody else because Mama had us reading” ([05:29]).

• Tolkien Journey:
  Her first encounter with Tolkien was through the animated Hobbit, but it wasn’t until junior high that she began reading the books. Erica expresses her enduring love for Middle-earth, mentioning, “World's getting too much time to go back to Middle Earth. I play LotRO” ([05:35]).

• Favorites:

  • Legendarium Book: The Hobbit – “I do enjoy because many times I do feel like Bilbo when somebody knocks on the door and I'm trying to eat” ([06:03]).
  • Non-Legendarium Book: Roverandom – Holds special significance as she read it shortly before her mother’s passing ([06:20]).
  • Favorite Hobbits: Samwise Gamgee – “My favorite hobbit would be Sam” ([07:58]).

• Goals:
  Erica aims to attend Oxford Moot in person, having served as an online steward for the past two years ([06:54]).

• Lightning Round Highlights:

  • Favorite Scene: Frodo waking up in Minas Tirith to Aragon and others ([07:26]).
  • Favorite Poem: "The Road Goes Ever On" ([08:22]).
  • Favorite Author: C.S. Lewis ([08:29]).
  • Dream Destination in Middle-earth: Rivendell, specifically Elrond’s library ([08:41]).

Erica’s heartfelt contributions provide a personal touch, showcasing the profound impact Tolkien’s works have on listeners.

---

3. In-Depth Analysis: The First Battle of the Fords of Isen

Main Text Analysis:
Alan reads a passage from Unfinished Tales detailing the strategic and tactical elements leading up to and during the First Battle of the Fords of Isen.

Key Discussion Points:

a. Background and Character Dynamics

• Theoden’s Leadership:
  Alan and Matt explore King Theoden's situation—a beloved ruler whose health begins to falter, possibly due to Grima Wormtongue’s manipulations. “Theoden’s sense of weakness and dependence on Grima was largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counselor's suggestions” ([02:07]).

• Theodred and Eomer:
  Theodred, Theoden’s son, and Eomer, his nephew, are portrayed as devoted and steadfast. Their relationship is further examined, highlighting how familial bonds shield them from Grima’s influence. Matt notes, “Theodred is 13 years older than Eomer at the time that he's brought” ([13:22]).

b. Saruman's Strategy and Grima’s Influence

• Obstacles to Conquest:
  Saruman aims to conquer Rohan, but Theodred and Eomer’s loyalty to Theoden presents significant obstacles. Grima attempts to sow discord between them, unsuccessfully pitting Theodred against Eomer ([12:21]).

• Theodred’s Death:
  Saruman’s order to kill Theodred is a turning point. The commanders’ hesitation leads to Saruman’s strategic mistake of not immediately launching a full-scale invasion, granting Rohan critical reinforcements ([09:28]).

c. Battle Tactics and Geographical Significance

• Fords of Isen as a Strategic Location:
  The Isen River’s narrow points—eyots—are crucial for defense. Saruman’s forces exploit this by attacking from both sides, but Theodred’s troops, though initially successful against the vanguard, face entrenched pikemen ready to counter cavalry charges ([53:32]).

• Rohirrim’s Defensive Maneuvers:
  The battle showcases the Rohirrim’s discipline and tactical acumen, despite heavy losses. Grimbold’s rear-guard action exemplifies heroic defense, though at the cost of Theodred’s life ([78:46]).

d. What-If Speculations and Alternate Scenarios

• Ents’ Potential Intervention:
  Alan and Matt speculate on Tolkien’s footnote regarding the Ents, pondering what might have transpired had Gandalf rallied the Ents earlier. They agree that while it could have devastated Saruman's forces, it might have left Rohan leaderless and crippled Gondor due to Saruman's delay ([40:00]).

• Saruman’s Tactical Errors:
  The hosts discuss how Saruman’s delay in launching a full assault allowed Rohan to sustain and eventually recover, underscoring the delicate balance of strategic timing in warfare ([35:15]).

Notable Quotes:

• Matt: “Theodred and Eomer have effectively been brothers for 10 years” ([21:20]).
• Alan: “Wormtongue was not the name on his resume when he applied” ([24:18]).
• Matt: “You don’t see them as anything else than your son and daughter” ([19:42]).

---

4. Listener Q&A: Appreciated Changes in Adaptations

Segment: Barlaman’s Notes
Timestamp: [91:12] - [112:16]

Listeners send in questions and comments about changes in Tolkien adaptations that they view positively.

Highlights:

• Positive Changes in Adaptations:
  Erica from Texas asks, “Are there any changes you think are actually good?” Matt and Alan discuss several adaptations they appreciate despite common criticisms.

• Examples of Appreciated Changes:

  • Bilbo’s Understanding of Spiders: In the Hobbit films, Bilbo’s realization that his invisibility helps against spiders was a clever cinematic addition not explicitly detailed in the books.
  • Individual Dwarves: Alan praises the films’ portrayal of Dwarves with distinct personalities, enhancing character engagement.
  • Arwen’s Expanded Role: Matt supports replacing Glorfindel with Arwen in film adaptations to deepen her character connection with Aragorn, making her a more integral part of the narrative.
  • Funeral Scenes: Both hosts commend the emotional depth added to scenes like Eowyn’s funeral song, which, while not detailed in the books, effectively conveys the Rohirrim’s loss and valor.

Notable Quotes:

• Matt: “I think it was the right call to give Arwen more screen time” ([103:13]).
• Alan: “The Lord of the Rings prologue is arguably the greatest prologue. It’s a masterpiece of all time” ([95:45]).

---

5. Conclusion

Alan and Matt wrap up Episode 360 with acknowledgments to their team and patrons, emphasizing the community aspect of the Prancing Pony Podcast. They tease the next episode, which will cover the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen, promising further exploration of Rohan’s trials and triumphs.

Final Remarks:

• Community Engagement:
  Listeners are encouraged to join the podcast’s social media channels and support the show via Patreon for exclusive content and perks.

• Upcoming Content:
  The next episode promises a continuation of the intense military engagements in Rohan, likely involving strategic deep dives and listener interactions.

---

Key Takeaways:

• The Battle of the Fords of Isen is a pivotal moment in Rohan’s history, highlighting themes of loyalty, sacrifice, and strategic warfare.
• Character relationships, especially between Theoden, Theodred, and Eomer, play a crucial role in resisting Saruman’s machinations.
• Adaptations of Tolkien’s work can introduce meaningful changes that enhance character development and narrative depth, as appreciated by dedicated fans.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "My dad works in B2B marketing." — Alan Sisto [00:00]

• "I do feel like Bilbo when somebody knocks on the door and I'm trying to eat." — Erica Bau [06:09]

• "Sam is my favorite hobbit." — Erica Bau [07:58]

• "Theoden’s sense of weakness and dependence on Grima was largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counselor's suggestions." — Alan Sisto [12:07]

• "Grimbold, a man of great strength and stature, clove his way through, till with two others he reached Theodred, standing at bay on the knoll, too late." — Matt [78:35]

• "Theoden is like a paternal figure to Eomer and Eowyn, which adds emotional depth to their relationships." — Matt [17:21]

• "You don’t see them as anything else than your son and daughter." — Matt [19:42]

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of Episode 360, providing both seasoned listeners and newcomers with a clear understanding of the discussions and analyses presented by Alan and Matt. From character explorations to strategic battle breakdowns, the episode offers valuable insights into Tolkien’s richly crafted world.

Transcript

[Alan Sisto]

My dad works in B2B marketing.

[Matt]

He came by my school for Career day and said he was a big roas man.

[Alan Sisto]

Then he told everyone how much he.

[Matt]

Loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

[Alan Sisto]

Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Twitter terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be to be. Your data is like gold to hackers. They'll sell it to the highest bidder. Are you protected? McAfee helps shield you blocking suspicious texts, malicious emails and fraudulent websites. McAfee Secure VPN lets you browse safely and its AI powered tech scam detector spots threats instantly. You'll also get up to $2 million of award winning antivirus and identity theft protection, all for just $39.99 for your first year. Visit McAfee.com, cancel anytime terms apply. Good evening little masters, and welcome to episode 360 of the Prancing Pony podcast where, well, the chief obstacles to an easy conquest of Rohan were almost certainly not me and Matt.

[Matt]

I don't think Wormtongue would need to bother discrediting us with Theoden though, because I think we've done a good job of it ourselves.

[Alan Sisto]

We probably have. That's fair.

[Matt]

Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the Nerd of the Rings, and I'm here with the man of the west to whom the loyalty of many remains steadfast even in his apparent dotage, Alan Sisto.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, at least folks are going to know who poisoned me when the day comes. Matt folks, join us as Saruman puts out a contract for Theodred as we continue our move forward in time from Kyrian and Aoral while keeping our focus on Rohan in a three episode look at the battles of the Fords of Isen in Unfinished Tales.

[Matt]

I'm really excited about this one.

[Alan Sisto]

It's going to be fun.

[Matt]

Now folks, no matter how you arrived, you're all welcome here in the common room. As at the Prancing Pony Podcast, we are reading and talking our way through Middle Earth with plenty of speculation and bad jokes along the way.

[Alan Sisto]

Of course, we still love our deep dives into the lore, discussing our favorite themes and a whole lot more, but.

[Matt]

We try to keep it light and fun like a couple friends chatting at the pub, and we're glad You've joined us.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you're going to be glad you joined as well. But before we get to tonight's chapter discussion, it's time to stop over and have a chat with a visitor in the North Wing. And today we're bringing you another new installment of the North Wing.

[Matt]

Barlam and Butterbur had a room or two in the North Wing at the Prancing Pony Inn, made special for hobbits. And this is our place made special for some of our listeners to give us a chance to get to know.

[Alan Sisto]

Them, sans weird accents, though.

[Matt]

Oh, you don't want me to do the accent?

[Alan Sisto]

No, no, I meant our guests. You can do all the accents you want.

[Matt]

Oh, okay. Okay, fair enough.

[Alan Sisto]

Rooms at the North Wing, though, are hard to come by, folks, so only our patrons at the Elronds Honorarium and K Dan's contribution tiers are eligible. So if you'd like to be one of the next patrons to join us, be sure to check out patreon.com prancingponypod Please do.

[Matt]

We've got a waiting list for the North Wing right now, but we'll get to them all soon and we'll make room for more if necessary.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, then, why don't we go ahead and welcome tonight's guest to the North Wing, Erica Bau.

[C]

Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you for joining us. Erica, tell us a little bit about yourself. You've listened to these segments before. You know what we're going to ask. Where are you from, what do you do, and what do your loved ones think of all this Tolkien stuff you're into?

[C]

Well, my dad sort of, you know, I'm from the Texas area. Grew up, born, raised in Texas, retired Air Force, now being federal government, helping out with the Air Force again. As for my family, my late mom was the one who got me into Tolkien and reading, and my brother and a couple of nephews are interested. So I'm still trying to work on the younger nephews. My dad tolerates it, but he's more of a Westerns.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. All right. Well, you know, you could just kind of rephrase the Lord of the Rings and sort of give Aragorn a little bit of a drawl. You know, we were thinking about, weren't we mad about giving Amer a sort of a John Wayne sort of draw?

[Matt]

I mean, well, and we had the. The Southerns.

[Alan Sisto]

The Southerns. Oh, yeah, the Southerns. All right, Matt, you've got a question up next.

[Matt]

Yeah. So the question we ask everyone who comes to the Prancing Pony. When and how did you first discover Tolkien's works? And what was your experience like? Why. Why does it keep bringing you back?

[C]

Well, my earliest memory is the animated Hobbit, and I didn't. That's a fun one. Start reading the books. Until junior high. That was my elementary school. The librarian was more of a. You're in the first grade, you stay in the shelf. And my mom was always. Summertime. We were enrolled in the summer reading at the library, and that's what we did. Yeah, I was always ahead of everybody else because Mama had us reading.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. And what. What. What keeps you coming back then to Middle Earth? I mean, that was presumably a very long time ago.

[C]

Yeah, for me, it's, you know, it's a good place to. Okay. World's getting too much time to go back to Middle Earth. I play lotro. That's my. All right, I'll get frustrated. Work. I'm almost still alive. We're good. I'm going to kill some trolls.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, troll killing is always a useful thing. All right, well, which is your favorite book in the legendarium, and why? And then if you have a favorite non legendarium book, what is it and why?

[C]

Well, the Legendarium, you know, mine would probably be the Hobbit.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[C]

Yeah, I do enjoy because many times I do feel like Bilbo when somebody knocks on the door and I'm trying to eat.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a good reason why I like that. I like that.

[C]

My favorite non legendary was Roverdom.

[Alan Sisto]

Roverandom. Ah. Yeah.

[C]

Because I just finished reading it, you know, a few weeks before my mom suddenly passed. And so it has a special.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. I mean, you're reading it at that time, at a time of tragedy, and so it's going to stick with you. It's a really interesting work, too.

[C]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Do you have any Tolkien goals you'd like to share? Whether it's tracking down a special book for your collection or going to a moot or what. Whatever it may be. Do you have anything. Any Tolkien goals?

[C]

Well, one of my goals is one day to make it over to Oxford Moot in person.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, that's a good goal to have.

[C]

The past two years, I've been an online steward for Ox and Mute, but I like to be in the same time zone.

[Alan Sisto]

That would be nice.

[C]

Two in the morning.

[Alan Sisto]

It's quite an event and definitely the kind of thing that any Tolkien fan should try to attend at least once. All right, well, it's time for a lightning round of quick questions. And answers. All right, Erica, what's your favorite scene or moment in the legendarium?

[C]

My favorite scene would be when Frodo wakes up in Minas Tirith and sees Aragon and sees all. Everybody he thought were gone.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[C]

They showed up on him.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. The field of Cormallen there, where he's like, wait a minute, you all are supposed to be dead.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, that's a good one.

[Matt]

Now, you might have played your hand a little bit with. With your earlier answer about favorite book, but who is your favorite hobbit?

[C]

My favorite hobbit would be Sam.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, Matt thought it was going to be Bilbo. I see that on his.

[Matt]

I think it was going to be Bilbo.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, Sam's a good choice. All right, here's an easy one. Well, easy one if you know us. Balrog wings. Actual or metaphorical?

[C]

Metaphorical.

[Alan Sisto]

Thank you. You get to stay.

[Matt]

It's a good one. Favorite poem or song in the legendarium?

[C]

Well, my favorite poem is the Road Goes Ever On.

[Alan Sisto]

Love that one. Favorite author or book other than Tolkien?

[C]

C.S. lewis.

[Alan Sisto]

Good choice. Matt, you've got one more.

[Matt]

Yep. One last question for you. What? What's the one place in Middle Earth that you wish you could visit?

[C]

Rivendell.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, once again, you surprised me. I thought you were going to say the Shire. For sure.

[C]

I want to go to Elrond's library.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think everybody does. That's certainly on the bucket list for all the Middle Earth visitors, right? Well, those are some great answers. Thank you, Eric. I really appreciate you being here today.

[C]

Thank you.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, we've enjoyed having you here in the North Wing, but it is time for all of us to head back over to the Common Room to join the rest of the listeners.

[Matt]

Thanks again, and we'll see you back at our next questions after nightfall, if not sooner.

[Alan Sisto]

And now we return you to the podcast in progress.

[Matt]

Always great to chat over in the North Wing, but it's time to get to the text, Alan. Take it away with the first reading.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. The chief obstacles to an easy conquest of Rohan by Saruman were Theodred and Eomer. Like we said, it's not us. They were vigorous men, devoted to the king and high in his affections as his only son and his sister's son. And they did all that they could to thwart the influence over him that Grima gained when the king's health began to fail. This occurred early in the year 3014, when Theoden was 66. His malady may thus have been due to natural causes, though the Rohirrim commonly lived till near or beyond their 80th year but it may well have been induced or increased by subtle poisons administered by Grima. In any case, Theoden's sense of weakness and dependence on Grima was largely due to the cunning and skill of this evil counselor's suggestions. It was his policy to bring his chief opponents into discredit with Theoden and, if possible, to get rid of them. It proved impossible to set them at odds with one another. Theoden, before his sickness, had been much loved by all his kin and people and the loyalty of Theodred and Eomer remained steadfast even in his apparent dotage. Eomer also was not an ambitious man and his love and respect for Theodred, 13 years older than he was only second to his love of his foster father. Grima therefore tried to play them one against the other in the mind of Theoden representing Eomer as ever, eager to increase his own authority and to act without consulting the king or his heir. In this he had some success which bore fruit when Saruman at last succeeded in achieving the death of Theodred. It was clearly seen in Rohan when the true accounts of the battles at the fords were known that Saruman had given special orders that Theodred should at all costs be slain. At the first battle, all his fiercest warriors were engaged in reckless assaults upon Theodred and his guard disregarding other events of the battle which might otherwise have resulted in a much more damaging defeat for the Rohirrim. When Theodred was at last slain Saruman's commander, no doubt under orders seemed satisfied for the time being. And Saruman made the mistake, fatal as it proved, of not immediately throwing in more forces and proceeding at once to a massive invasion of Westfold. Though the valor of Grimbold and Elfhelm contributed to this delay. If the invasion of Westfold had begun five days earlier there can be little doubt that the reinforcements from Edoras would never have come near Helm's Deep but would have been surrounded and overwhelmed in the open plain if indeed Etteras had not itself been attacked and captured before the arrival of Gandalf.

[Matt]

So we start out with a clear indication that not only is Saruman seeking to conquer Rohan but that the two people standing in its way were Theodred, son and heir to King Theoden, and Eomer.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, a quick reminder, folks, that here at the time of the first battle of the Fords of isen Theodred is 41 years old. That's quite a bit older than the way they portrayed him in the Jackson films. And eomer is only 28. And also, because it's what we do, a quick bit of word nerdery on Theodred's name. We've talked repeatedly about the Theod elements meaning people, as in Theoden. And that's what it means here, people. But the second element, red, means counsel or advice, like we see in Ethelred the Unready, Unread, meaning evil counsel or no counsel, which was a pun on his name that meant noble counsel. So this is like the Council of the People.

[Matt]

And while the text tells us shortly that Eomer loved and respected Theodred more than anyone other than Theoden himself, maybe we should do a quick sidebar to see how that came to be.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we should. And for that, Matt, I'm going to have you take us back to a passage in appendix A3. That's the House of Eorl that you and I actually skipped when we covered this section in episode 353. Go ahead.

[Matt]

In 2989, Theodwyn married Eomund of Eastfold, the chief marshal of the Mark. Her son Eomer was born in 2991 and her daughter Eowyn in 2995. At that time, Sauron had arisen again and the shadow of Mordor reached out to Rohan. Orcs began to raid the eastern regions and slay or steal horses. Others also came down from the Misty Mountains many being great Uruks in the service of Saruman, though it was long before that was suspected. Oman's chief charge lay in the East Marches. And he was a great lover of horses and hater of Orcs. If news came of a raid, he would often ride against them in hot anger, unwarily and with few men. Thus it came about that he was slain in 3002. For he pursued a small band to the borders of the Emyn Muil and was there surprised by a strong force that lay in wait in the rocks. Not long after, Theodwyn took sick and died to the great grief of the king. Her children he took into his house, calling them son and daughter. He had only one child of his own, Theodred, his son, then 24 years old. For the queen Elfhild had died in childbirth and Theoden did not wed again. Eomer and Eowyn grew up at Edoras and saw the Dark Shadow fall on the halls of Theoden.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, we need to start with Theodwin. When we're talking about this situation. And folks, if you don't recall or it wasn't clear in that passage, Theodwin was Theoden's sister. And we read about that a little in the entry for Thengel, that was Theoden's father, that he didn't get married until he was 38, that is Thengel. And that marriage was to Morrowen of losarnak. She was 21. They met in Gondor, which was where Thingal was living thanks to his dad being kind of an idiot. And they had three kids together while they were there.

[Matt]

Theoden was the second of those kids and the only son. He was born in 2948. And when he was just five years old, his grandfather Fengal, the previously mentioned jerk, died and his father was recalled to Rohan to succeed to the throne. And yes, we read that he returned unwillingly, but he proved a good and wise king.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, he and Morwen had two more daughters. And while we don't know when the first of those two was born, we know that Theodwen, the youngest, was born in 2963.

[Matt]

Yeah. She's described as the child of Thengel's age as he was 58 when she was born. Theoden was 15 when his baby sister was born.

[Alan Sisto]

So I kind of want you to put yourself in Theoden's shoes. He's the second of five children, but all four of his siblings are sisters. He spent the first five years of his life in Gondor with his Gondorian mother and of course, his dad, the heir to the throne of Rohan. It's a very different life than I think we imagine the Theoden of the films. I mean, he's got a softer side to him because he grew up with four sisters. How do you know? You know.

[Matt]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think. I mean, even in the films, I feel like that comes across a little bit really well with the. With particularly. I'm thinking of the moment where he says no more despair to Eowyn before they leave Dunharrow. Oh, my God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and I. I've never made this connection before until we actually just talked about it here. But I. I feel like that affinity, that affection that he has for Theodwyn, who's his youngest sister, much younger than him.

[Alan Sisto]

Much younger. 15 years old. When your baby sister's born, you're gonna feel super protective. You know, there's gonna be a real. Just a love there.

[Matt]

Yeah. I mean, at that point, I mean, I have so my youngest sister is 12 years younger than me and like, oh, wow.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay. It's almost a paternal role, isn't it?

[Matt]

Yeah, it's like an extra parent in a way. And so especially when they're young, you know, you. You really take on that protective role and everything. And I feel like, you know, this is the point that I said, I never really made that connection before, but I feel like that kind of transfers to Eowyn a bit, you know, this, this love that he has for Theodwyn and then taking care of her daughter.

[Alan Sisto]

And her son even. I mean, it's a different relationship between him and Amer, but it's especially with the daughter. Right, Yeah, I agree.

[Matt]

I think, I think they've got an extra special bond there.

[Alan Sisto]

I think so.

[Matt]

Dearer than daughter is the line. That always gets me.

[Alan Sisto]

Such a great phrase. I love that.

[Matt]

Yeah. So then 10 years after you've returned to the land of your father's birth but not yours, your baby sister's born. And so it's no wonder the appendix says her brother loved her dearly.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. And I feel like that explains why when his baby sister dies of grief at 39 after the death of her husband, which he was also one of the top marshals who would have been very close to him as well, Theoden took her children in as his own. As his own son and daughter eomer then being 11, and Eowyn only 7. And I feel like there's even more emotional depth to that when you remember what we just read in this passage, Matt, that while Theoden's own son Theodred is 24, I mean, Theoden's an empty nester. His son's 24, and now he's all of a sudden got an 11 year old and a 7 year old. That's a radical change in the way you're running your household. But here's the thing. He couldn't have had more children because his wife died in childbirth. So, man, that's hard. That hits, doesn't it?

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, obviously we find out Theoden grew up in a large family but only had one child. He clearly loved his sister dearly. And, you know, the math is kind of mathing out.

[Alan Sisto]

It is, isn't it? Yeah.

[Matt]

Theoden is clearly one of those guys who comes from a large family and doesn't mind a large family. Not the kind that like, is in a large family and says, I'm never having more than one kid. I'm having one, you know?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. So he's.

[Matt]

He's on board. And, and I think we both have adopted children and so like this story is so close to my heart, like with Theoden adopting Eomer and Eowyn and the way he treats that like as son and daughter and like, yes, it's one of those, like, I don't, I don't know if Tolkien intended it this way, but it's so true in that like you don't see them as anything else than your son and daughter and that's the way Theoden treats them. And I love that.

[Alan Sisto]

I love it too. And I think also, you know, as an older adoptive parent, I feel that too. Right, let's see. Theoden doing the math is 54 when he brings in this 11 year old and 7 year old as his kids. And yeah, I mean, I'm a little older than that and my kids are 12 and 10 and about to be 13 and 11. So yeah, it's an interesting comparison and I just, I really feel for Theoden here and it gives us a little more insight into how much he loved Eomer and Eowyn. But I think it also coming back to where we're at in the story with Theodred the son and Eomer, let's remember that unlike in the films, there is a pretty big age gap between these two. Theodred is 13 years older than Eomer at the time that he's brought. Well, he's actually 13 years older the rest of his life. But at the time Amir comes in as 11, Thadd's 24. Right. Amir has just lost his father. He's been adopted by the king, who's, who's older. But naturally he's going to look up to his cousin. Right. You talked about that sort of that age gap being almost a parental role. Theodore's 24 years old. He's got an 11 year old brother and a 7 year old sister. He's going to take on that role.

[Matt]

Very similar. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And with all that as background, let's return to the text that describes both these men as vigorous, devoted to the king and high in his affections.

[Alan Sisto]

Understandably so.

[Matt]

Right, yeah. And it's going to prove difficult to influence Theoden with these two around. And yet influence is precisely what's going on with Grima.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now again with the very direct mention here, Rich, remember this that we're reading is written as a chronicle, as a history. Later on, the writer is going to assume that the reader would have the basic knowledge of the core facts that Saruman sought to conquer Rohan and that Wormtongue was his tool in attempting to influence Theoden. So there's not a lot of story here to build either of those elements up. It's just as given.

[Matt]

You know, speaking of Wormtongue, we get a very clear mention of when his influence began, early in 3014. And that's a little more than five years before the time Gandalf and the three hunters show up in the Two Towers.

[Alan Sisto]

Yep. And since time has now passed, since he has brought the kids in, I want to give you the relevant ages at this point. Theoden is now 66. Right. That we talk about his maybe being related to his old age, but probably not because they typically live a little longer. That means Eomer is 23, Eowyn is 19, and Theodred is 36. So by this point, Eomer and Theodred have effectively been brothers for 10 years.

[Matt]

Now, we're also given the interesting possibility that Theoden's malady could have been simply due to his getting older.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, I'm hearing a joke in there.

[Matt]

I was gonna say, I can think of no better person to discuss this with than Alan. So.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, thank you, Alan.

[Matt]

Let's dive into this.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting that the Chronicler does give us the possibility of this. So how does the Chronicler phrase this? He says something about his malady may thus have been due to natural causes, and then later says, but it may well have been induced or increased. And later he actually phrases sickness with air quotes. So I feel like there is this strong leaning towards the assumption that it was not a malady of his old age, but was in fact related to Grima. And not necessarily just physical poisons, but the psychological poison, the mental draining that his presence would. Would have. But, yeah, I mean, look, I mean, I think it's not out of the question for somebody in their mid-60s to already be suffering a little bit and to be struggling and to be able to be influenced so readily by somebody.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Who has his ear.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think that's the thing is, like, the combination of, you know, maybe age, maybe he's a little less, you know, sharp, you could say, and more susceptible. Maybe like you can't figure out how to use the iPhone.

[Alan Sisto]

You know how to use the iPhone. Or the TV remote.

[Matt]

How do.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Or the TV remote. Or it's like, my Internet's not working. It's like, well, did you. Did you plug it in?

[Alan Sisto]

I was gonna make a joke about the cup holder on the PC. But I don't think anybody even has any CD ROM drives anymore. So the joke doesn't even work.

[Matt]

No, it doesn't. Yeah. But yeah, I think, you know, Grima is obviously someone who's already earned some measure of trust. And then like, I think it's. It's just kind of this perfect.

[Alan Sisto]

He wasn't worm tongue when he applied for the job, let's put it that way. Right, right. Yeah.

[Matt]

And then, I mean that's the thing. Exactly.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And so. And then, you know, you factor in the poisons and like old person with poisons just naturally. That doesn't sound like a good combination.

[Alan Sisto]

No, no. Very bad combination. Yes. Yeah. I mean that's the thing. Sure. It could be in part due to that. Certainly that would make him more susceptible, one would think. I mentioned earlier the fact that he didn't have his wife around anymore. I think that actually is significant when you have, you know, your partner who knows you and has known you for. In this case, they would have known each other for, you know, 40 plus years. I feel like she would have been a balancing figure in relation to Wormtongue. It would have prevented a lot of that. But he's on his own really effectively. Eomer's out there doing a job. Eowyn's 19 at this point, so she hasn't been able to really wield enough influence. But yeah, I feel like maybe the malady isn't due to his age so much as it is that his age makes him a little more susceptible to it.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, before we're given the more likely culprit. Right. You know, I mean, that's the thing.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

We're like, oh, maybe it was due to a sickness and age. Then we get. Yeah, but it's probably the subtle poisons.

[Matt]

Provided by might have had something to do with my.

[Alan Sisto]

Whatever the cause. Right. Causation, correlation. We don't know. The king was actually dependent upon Grima by this point thanks to Wormtongues cunning. And again, I just want to point this out. Wormtongue was not the name on his resume when he applied. Right. He, like you said, had earned a level of trust before he became a betrayer to Theoden in order to benefit Saruman.

[Matt]

Yeah. And one of the things that Grima had been successful in doing so far was to discredit his enemies in the eyes of Theoden.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. Or better yet, just get rid of them.

[Matt]

Right, Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, I think we know what that means.

[Matt]

Tomato, tomato, you know.

[Alan Sisto]

Exactly. You know, Discredit, kill, whatever it takes. Exile at the very least. But that was proving far more difficult to do with these two, of course. I mean, they're both loyal to their father, adoptive father, even, in his apparent dotage.

[Matt]

And.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes, I know, Matt, you're warming up a joke right now.

[Matt]

I would never. I don't know what you're talking about.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm sure you would never.

[Matt]

Moving on here, what do you make of the line? Before his sickness, you know, Theoden had been much loved. Does that mean that during his sickness he wasn't.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, oh, I hadn't thought about that.

[Matt]

Had been much loved.

[Alan Sisto]

Had been much loved. That's exactly what it says. Right. I mean, when we look at this sickness, Theoden, before his sickness, had been much loved by all his kin and people. Though we do read then, the loyalty of Theodred and Eomer remained steadfast. That suggests maybe not everybody's loyalty had remained steadfast.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Grima was a little more successful in getting some of the people to maybe not look up to Theoden anymore. Maybe hard to. If he's really under the control of Wormtongue, the average person is going to be like, ah, you know, it's just worm tongue. He's just a puppet now.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I mean, you could easily see how going alongside this would be like a tendency to be more reclusive.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, yeah.

[Matt]

You know, so maybe he's not the king of the people that he once was. And so it's.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair.

[Matt]

Yeah. But no, I totally. I mean, that's. That's what the text is implying here.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. It really is.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

During his sickness, he must have lost a little bit of that support of.

[Matt]

The people that respect.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. I imagine he probably felt, you know, a little bit of a lack of self respect. You know, I'm sure he, in his more lucid moments would have wondered why he was falling apart so quickly. And, you know, seeing that decline, the people would find themselves being a little bit less, not so much loyal. It's not that we're going to become disloyal and flip to Saruman, but they weren't going to be as all Theoden. That's great.

[Matt]

They talk more about old Theoden, you know, like the Theoden. You remember how awesome Theoden was.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

This is a what have you done for me lately? Sort of people, really.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

Now, coming back to the text, we find that, you know, Eomer simply doesn't have the ambition when it comes to Wormtongue trying to divide him, combined with his love and respect, not just for King Theoden, but for his brother. I mean, Theodred is essentially his brother.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, that meant that Wormtongue is running into trouble. He's not. He's not getting traction on this plan to divide them.

[Alan Sisto]

No. He's not going to be able to get Theodore and Amir to get at each other's throats. Instead, since he can't set them against each other in real life, he's just going to try to set them against each other in. In the mind of the king.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

After all, it's really Theoden's opinion that matters anyway. This is a monarchy and not a democracy. So he starts portraying Eomer as trying to gain power and this sort of ability to act independently of either Theoden or Theodred.

[Matt]

Yeah, which is an interesting ploy in that Eomer himself does have a high rank. You know, he's the third Marshal of the Rittermark, you know. Although it is Theodred who's the second Marshal.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. The King, of course, is actually the one who technically serves as the first Marshal. But we're going to cover that whole Marshall thing in a couple of weeks. The appendix to the Battles of the Fords of Ice. And spends a lot of time talking about the structure of the way that the Marshals are organized. So we'll cover that then.

[Matt]

Yeah. Marshall or not, he's still subordinate to Theodred and Theoden. So Wormtongue's angle here is to cast him as insubordinate.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

And forebodingly, the text says that this effort had some success, which was seen after Saruman managed to get Theodred killed.

[Alan Sisto]

Mm. Wonder what that success looked like. Is it just the fact that he got Theodred killed? I mean, I don't know how. I mean, I suppose maybe after Theodorid's death, it's easier now to pit Eomer against a non existent person. Like, you know, now see, look. Now he's going to try to fill this power vacuum.

[Matt]

Yeah. When it says had some success, I could see that just making some traction in Theoden's mind, you know, like. Yeah, maybe like Theoden gets to be, you know, more paranoid about, like, oh, is Eomer plotting my demise?

[Alan Sisto]

And now that Theodore's dead, does he think he's going to be my heir and. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

[Matt]

Which he is. Which is.

[Alan Sisto]

Which he is. Like, Right. I mean, that's the whole point. Emir is the next in line. If Theodore dies, is it saying that.

[Matt]

This had some success after Theodred's death? Or is it just saying? Or is it. Is that just when we're told about it?

[Alan Sisto]

That's the thing. I'm not quite sure.

[Matt]

Yeah. Because I'm thinking that maybe this had some traction prior to Theodred's death.

[Alan Sisto]

I think it might have. I mean, if you look at the phrasing that it's. That it uses in the text says in this, he had some success which bore fruit when Saruman at last succeeded in achieving the Death of Theodorus. So, yeah, there was some success prior to that death. What would that success look like?

[Matt]

Yeah. And then, you know, obviously, I think the way that Theoden treats Eomer in the Lord of the Rings, we see there's a bit more, I don't know, this undertone of animosity. Like, obviously he comes back and, you know, when the. When the three hunters return to Etterus and Theoden is healed. Eomer's in jail.

[Alan Sisto]

He's in jail. That's right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Nearly forgotten that. Right. Yeah.

[Matt]

Which, you know, like, yes, he disobeyed orders, but they were crappy orders to begin with.

[Alan Sisto]

They were Wormtongues orders. Yeah. I wonder, you know, you mentioned that. And one of the reasons he was out there was. I mean, okay, that is the area that he's the marshal over. Let's be honest, he's responsible for the east side. But, you know, I find his absence at the Battles of the Fords of Isen very significant. And I wonder. I mean, yes, they eventually call for those. Those reinforcements, but you'd think that maybe since you've got the first dance. Well, not the first and second, but you've got the. You've got Theodred and then you've got Elfelm, and you've got Grimbold. Where is Emir? Where was Amer when the Fords fell? No, I mean, we know he was out doing his job in the Eastfold, but you wonder if maybe part of the reason that he was out there was because Wormtongue wanted to keep them apart.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And that. That would have been some of the success. Like, might Theodred have had a harder time getting killed if Amer had been present?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So I don't know. It's an interesting question. I mean, you know, what if. I guess we could always articulate on that in the P5, like, what if Amir had been there, you know.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

But now that we have some background in the text. We get into the actual prelude to the first battle, and we read that after the battles, historians determined that Saruman had ordered the death of Theodred at all costs. Now, as we see later in Helm's Deep. I say later chronologically, but it's about, what, three seasons ago? Saruman's short sightedness will prove to be his disadvantage. And I think we're going to talk about that in a couple of episodes with a special friend of the podcast.

[Matt]

So this at all costs looks just like you think it would. Elite soldiers being tasked with killing Theodred and ignoring everything else going on in the battle.

[Alan Sisto]

I know, exactly. You have one job to do. But, you know, had you actually just treated this like, you know, a battle instead of a really complicated murder, you might actually have inflicted more damage on Rohan.

[Matt]

Yeah, and we also read that it was Saruman's commander, no doubt under his orders, who hesitated after killing Theodred. Again at Helm's Deep, his failure to be present at the battle leads to a strong disadvantage.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. I mean, had he been present to kind of take into consideration the strategic and tactical circumstances, might he have said, let's commit all the troops, let's go?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Whatever the case, this hesitation, the text says, proved fatal. How is this? Well, today, that's the day of the First Battle of the Fords of Isen is February 25th. To connect you to what else is going on, the company are now camping at Parth Gallon. The breaking of the Fellowship takes place tomorrow. Saruman ends up waiting until March 2nd to attack the Fords again. That's when he defeats Eric and Brand, and he reaches helm's deep on March 3rd. Remember, there are 30 days in February in this calendar.

[Matt]

Now, had they invaded the Westfold from here on this day, the war with Rohan is already over. Soldiers from Etterus could never have made it in time. In fact, the text suggests that not only would those reinforcements likely have been defeated on the open plain, vastly superior numbers recall, the capital itself might have been reached and captured before Gandalf even shows up on March 2nd.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow, that changes the whole story, doesn't it? I mean, it changes very much so, everything. Now, keep in mind that it took two days alone for the news of Theodred's death to reach Etteras in the first place. The battle takes place on February 25. News reaching Etterus on February 27. As Wormtongue points out to Gandalf on March 2, it is not yet five days since the bitter tidings came that Theodred, your son was slain. Upon the west marches your right hand, second marshal of the mark.

[Matt]

And we shouldn't underestimate Gandalf's importance here. Without his arrival, Theoden is never healed and likely defeated anyway.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a very good point. I mean, there's no doubt that Theoden as he is before Gandalf's arrival and the healing of Theoden is not going to be able to successfully defend against an attack from Saruman. I mean, it is all over but the crying at that point. But I want to talk about Gandalf's earlier arrival for a minute. We all know he shows up on March 2 with Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas. He heals Theod and everything begins to turn around. That's great, but what about before? And for this we're going to go to the Lord of the Reader's companion from Hammond and Skull in their notes for the chapter the Council of Elrond their talking about when Gandalf is discussing how he came into possession of one Shadowfax. You know, they give us a really long passage with some great detail not just about Gandalf and Shadowfax, but about a character we know is very important here. But we don't get a lot on him. Mostly because he's about to die. Theodred.

[Matt]

Yeah. Hammond and Skull say that this is probably the latest manuscript among the Hunt for the Ring papers marked official and final. And then it gives us this. Gandalf escapes. Night of 1718. That's September 17th or 18th of 3018. Gandalf cannot descend on an eagle before the gates of Etterus and in any case has to avoid the pursuit of Saruman. He is set down therefore by Gwaihir in the foothills of the White Mountains at dawn on September 8th 18th west of Etterus. And he does not come to Etterus until September 19th in a beggarly guise on foot.

[Alan Sisto]

Okay, so far so good. That tracks precisely with what the Tale of Years tells us in Appendix B. But while we're there we also read that Gandalf gained entrance to Etteras the next day, September 20th. Again we're 3018 the year before. That's when Theoden commanded him to go told him to take any horse. But here we get more detail. Yes, he gets that meeting with Theoden on September 20th but it's in this manuscript we learn Wormtongue secretly in Saruman's service and with great influence over the King is absent for some reason and Theodred is more favorable to Gandalf. So Theoden is troubled but will not make up his mind.

[Matt]

Instead, he pushes the decision to the next day. Of course, Wormtongue reappears. And now Theoden tells Gandalf to be gone. Next morning, Wormtongue sends a message to Saruman. But A, Gandalf knows, and B, he also knows it won't get to him in time.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's when we read this. Gandalf says that this is ill treatment, which Theoden will rue. He does not understand the urgency of the times. He mentions the dreadful rumors of the passage of the Black Riders which have terrified Rohan. Now, said Gandalf, if no one else dare oppose these evil things, I dare, but not on foot. One might look for aid in such business from a great king. Lord of horses.

[Matt]

And that's when we get the take any horse, just get out of here bit. We read that after the king says this the willingness to give Gandalf a horse is much to the dislike of Wormtongue. But Theoden is reluctant to take back his word.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's when our hero Theodred pops up again. In the manuscript, Theodred opposes Wormtongue saying that a king cannot take back his word, even to a beggar, but that, for his part, he thinks more honor and heed should be paid to Gandalf. Graham Theodred rocks. I love that. And he. He clearly knows what's up. He's sort of the Faramir of Rohan right here.

[Matt]

Oh, that's a fun way to look at it.

[Alan Sisto]

I really like it. I mean, you know, he's. He's a wizard's pupil. He really admires Gandalf and is like, dad, I know you don't think this guy's so great because Wormtongue says he's not, but trust me, Gandalf's the guy. You need to listen to him. Yeah, and it just makes me so sad that he ends up being killed and we don't really get to know him at all, do we?

[Matt]

We don't. That's the. Yeah, it's unfortunate we don't get to know him. But here we are five months later and while we get to Gandalf's return to Etterus for now, we go back to the text and a really fun little what if. Which, you know, that's. That's part of the job here.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, we do. I mean, Tolkien doing a what if is not cool. No, no, no. That's our job.

[Matt]

I Don't. He does a lot of what ifs in the letters, and that's true.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, the letters are amazing for that. I know.

[Matt]

I love it. Yeah. So, yeah, let's. Let's see what we've got here in the footnote.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. Well, after rightly telling us that not pushing into the Westfold with a full invasion after Theodred's death on February 25th was a mistake, Tolkien observes that this leaves the Ents out of account. But hey, everybody leaves the Ents out of account except for Gandalf.

[Matt]

So what would have happened if there had been an invasion and Gandalf was able to bring about the rising of the Ents? Well, he couldn't have done it before now. So let's speculate. What if he'd stirred the Ents into action after a full invasion of Rohan on February 25th?

[Alan Sisto]

I love this. I love how Tolkien's like, you know, okay, what if. What if. What if the Ents did get stirred to action?

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

Or. I'm sorry. Yeah. What if they got stirred to action, but it was after this invasion had taken place. Right. Saruman and his forces come in. Can the Ents do anything to stop the damage? Let's find out.

[Matt]

Tolkien writes, the Ents might have destroyed Isengard and even captured Saruman if after victory he had not himself followed his army, the Ents and Huorns, with the aid of such riders of the East, Mark as had not yet been engaged, might have destroyed the forces of Saruman in Rohan, but the Mark would have been in ruins and leaderless.

[Alan Sisto]

In other words, no, we really need to make sure this gets stopped now. I love this, this speculation. This hypothetical is certainly bad news for Rohan, but of course, it's much worse news for Gondor. As Tolkien continues in the footnote. He writes, even if the Red Arrow had found anyone with authority to receive it, the call from Gondor would not have been heeded or at most a few companies of weary men would have reached Minas Tirith too late, except to perish with it. Wow.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I love how all of these little threads are so dependent on each other. And the idea that Saruman's delay, his strategic mistake in not pushing in on February 25, is literally what saves Gondor and enables Aragorn to be king.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah, It's a great comparison in that, you know, Saruman delays, whereas Sauron.

[Alan Sisto]

His problem is the other way around, isn't it?

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. That Gandalf and the others are able to do is force him to act too early. And so you've, you've got both sides here. And I just love how, you know, this is, like we said, this is Tolkien doing a what if? And we get such poetic writing here as too late except to perish with it. Like, it's such a great line. It is like, this is a footnote. Like, man, the man is the king. You know, what can you say?

[Alan Sisto]

He's so good at it. Yep.

[Matt]

Now, finally we get a mention that this delay by Saruman's commander, besides being under orders, most likely was caused in part by the valor of Grimbold and Elfhelm.

[Alan Sisto]

In fact, the text essentially repeats itself about their valor, suggesting that the chronicle, as written, perhaps underestimates the importance of those two. Now, we, on the other hand, are not going to underestimate their importance, but we're not going to be talking about them until later this episode. Matt When I think about businesses that are just blowing up, you know, selling through the roof, like Allbirds Shoes or Gymshark, where I bought some stuff, the first thing that hits me is that they sell a great product. Or maybe it's a cool brand. But something that people often overlook is the business behind the business that makes selling. And for shoppers, buying simple. And for millions of businesses, that business is Shopify.

[Matt]

Fact is, nobody does their selling better than Shopify, the home of the number one checkout on the planet. Their shop pay boosts conversions by up to 50%. So way fewer carts are abandoned and more sales go.

[Alan Sisto]

So if you're looking to grow your business, your commerce platform has to be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on their feed or in your store.

[Matt]

Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify.

[Alan Sisto]

Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that Gymshark uses. Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com pony all lowercase.

[Matt]

Go to shopify.com pony to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com pony we talk a lot on.

[Alan Sisto]

The show about immortal elves and their beauty. We even make a few jokes about how good their skin care must be. But I want to tell you about a product that actually does reverse your skin's biological age. The company is Oneskin, founded by an all woman team of scientists with their PhDs in stem cell biology, immunology, bioinformatics. And the ingredient that they've developed is a peptide called OS01, scientifically formulated to penetrate your skin's deeper layers, working at the cellular level to improve collagen production, hydration and key aging biomarkers while still doing, let's be honest, the things we want all skincare products to do reduce the visible signs of aging lines, wrinkles, sagging skin and all that. But what I like about Oneskin is they believe skincare isn't just about looking better, it's about making your skin more resilient to the aging process. By working at the cellular level, Oneskin is redefining the aging process with their proprietary OS01 peptide, the first ingredient proven to help skin look, feel, and behave like its younger self. Get 15% off with Code Pony at OneSkin co. That's 15% off OneSkin co with Code Pony. Now after you purchase, they're going to ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Invest in the health and longevity of your skin with one skin. Your future self will thank you. Now, soon we're going to get back to Saruman's overly complicated hit on Theodore. But before we do, we want to remind you there's a lot more talk going on at the Prancing Pony Podcast than just us.

[Matt]

The PPP has an amazing listener community. They're always coming up with great questions and discussions across all our social media spaces. Check out our Common Room on Facebook, our dedicated subreddit, Twitter, and more on Facebook.

[Alan Sisto]

Just look for the Prancing Pony podcast. Follow the page to get news, but you're going to want to join the group to get involved in some great discussions.

[Matt]

Or if you prefer Reddit, find us there at R prancingponypod. On Twitter and Instagram, we're simply rancingponypod.

[Alan Sisto]

And hey, if you want daily Tolkien content, please check out today's Tolkien times on YouTube and all your favorite podcast apps. It's my short format daily show with everything from Middle Earth Map Mondays to Silmarillion Saturdays. Be sure to check it [e-mail] times and follow @ Tolkien Times on all your social media. Matt, would you go ahead and pick up? We're going to learn a little bit about just why the fords are so important.

[Matt]

All right? Only here, south of Isengard was it possible for large forces, especially those heavily armed or mounted, to cross the river. Saruman thus had this advantage. He could send his troops down either side of the Isen and attack the fords if they were held against him from both sides. Any force of his west of Isen could, if necessary, retreat upon Isengard. On the other hand, Theodred might send men across the fords, either in sufficient strength to engage Saruman's troops or to defend the western bridgehead. But if they were worsted, they would have no retreat except back over the fords with the enemy at their heels and possibly also awaiting them on the eastern bank. South and west along the Isen, they had no way home unless they were provisioned for a long journey into western Gondor. Saruman's attack was not unforeseen, but it came sooner than was expected. Theodred's scouts had warned him of a mustering of troops before the gates of Isengard, mainly as it seemed, on the west side of Isen. He therefore manned the approaches east and west to the fords with sturdy men on foot from the levies of Westfold, leaving three companies of riders together with horse herds and spare mounts on the east bank. He himself passed over with the main strength of his cavalry, eight companies and a company of archers intending to overthrow Saruman's army before it was fully prepared. But Saruman had not revealed his intentions nor the full strength of his forces.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, now that we're going from the historian's sort of pre analysis, well, now that we know all these things that have happened, now we get to the actual story. So it's sort of like we've got this Monday morning quarterbacking out of the way.

[Matt]

Hold up, Alan. I think we're going to need to explain this to the rest of the world and maybe even to our American listeners who don't know sportsball things. Do we need to translate this?

[Alan Sisto]

I think we do. I'll give you kind of the TLDR version. So American football games, we still call it football. Don't try to make me call it anything else. American football games are typically played on Sundays. Quarterbacks are the players most responsible for their team's offensive performance, right. They're the ones who decide who to throw the ball to. They often call plays. So when fans and analysts look at a team's performance on Sunday, second guessing the decisions, right? Oh, if you only called this play. If he hadn't overthrown that ball. They're typically doing it on Monday mornings, but they're not the ones in the field. They're looking at it with 2020 hindsight. So they, the historians are Monday morning quarterbacking about what was intended and what Saruman might have done. That's what I mean by Monday morning quarterbacking.

[Matt]

That was a good job, Alan. You really knocked it out of the park.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh no, another sports analogy.

[Matt]

Now that we've got the sports analogies over with, we'll move to the battle itself starting with a description of the geography and terrain in the area most of which we skipped in the reading. And the key here is the flow of the river Isen.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now closer to its source, which is in the Misty Mountains north of Isengard. It flows quickly and that means it couldn't be crossed by an armored or mounted force. And we read a bit of that back in book three, chapter eight, the Road to Isengard. They had passed into Nan Curinir, the Wizard's Vale. That was a sheltered valley open only to the south. Once it had been fair and green and through it the Isen flowed already deep and strong before it found the plains for it was fed by many springs and lesser streams among the rainwashed hills. And all about it there had lain a pleasant fertile land.

[Matt]

And the road that Gandalf, Theoden, etc. Are taking north to Isengard is on the west side of the Isen. That is, they crossed at the fords, right? The only other place that they could cross would be at Isengard itself where a bridge had been built by Saruman. We learn that in the next chapter, Flotsam and Jetsam, where Merry is explaining what they saw. There must have been 10,000 at the very least, said Mary. They took an hour to pass out of the gates. Some went off down the highway to the fords and some turned away and went eastward. A bridge has been built down there about a mile away where the river runs in a very deep channel. You could see it now if you stood up.

[Alan Sisto]

So all of that sort of the explanation of the way the river flows the way Isengard is near its source and is really the only other place to cross. All that's to say that the fords are absolutely critical.

[Matt]

So it's fast up near its source and uncrossable. What about further down the river? The text tells us that the Isen turns west here. It falls by long slopes down into the low lying coastlands and became deep and rapid.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, there you go. So it's going to be impossible to cross further south. Now, picking up where we started reading we learned that it is only here in the flatter lands of the Gap of Rohan, where the Isen would naturally slow down that it becomes possible for a force to move across the river. Now the river actually splits into two little arms around a small island. That word E, Y, O, T. I think we pronounced it Eyot before. It's actually just pronounced like ate. It's just E.I.T.

[Matt]

Oh, interesting.

[Alan Sisto]

And it simply means a small island, especially an island in a river or lake. There's also a small shelf there made up of all the smaller rocks that have been carried down from the river's source. This is really the only place where the river has slowed down and isn't deep. So it is where an army would cross.

[Matt]

And with that understanding in mind, the text also points out the advantageous position that Saruman finds himself in. Up in Isengard. He can split his forces to go down both the west and east shores of the Isen, attacking the fords from both sides simultaneously.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. So even if the western side were defeated by Theodred and his troops, they could retreat up the road to Isengard. But if Saruman's forces won, well, Theodred and his forces would have to retreat back over the fords into the waiting army on the eastern shore.

[Matt]

Not great.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

The text expands on what we mentioned earlier. They can't go south or west from the fords in part because of the geography of the river but also, as the footnote points out, because of geopolitics.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. See, after the Isen turns west, the land south of the Isen, well, it's technically part of Rohan until the Adorn River.

[Matt]

Right.

[Alan Sisto]

We looked at that recently in Kirian and Aoro when we got the entire bounds of Rohan. But as the footnote points out, that's only nominally part of Rohan.

[Matt]

The people in that region were, the footnote explains, largely of mixed blood with the Dunlendings who had occupied it for a long time. We read their loyalty to Etterus was weak. The slaying of their lord Freca by King Helm was still remembered. Indeed, at this time they were more disposed to side with Saruman and many of their warriors had joined Saruman forces.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, Helm, Hammerhand killed Freca with that one punch all the way back in 2754. So they have a long memory in these parts. But the footnote also reiterates what we have been saying about the geography, pointing out there was no way into their land from the west except for bold swimmers. So probably not heavily armed and armored cavalry then.

[Matt]

Not so much. Unless they're Michael Phelps. They're not making.

[Alan Sisto]

There you go.

[Matt]

Now the tech smooth. Now, guys, that was an Olympian. I'm expecting you guys.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, no, we did another sports thing, didn't we?

[Matt]

I did another sports thing that was Michael Phelps, famous Olympian. Won a lot of gold medals for.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, I think it still holds the record or tied. He broke specifically. Right, yeah. For most gold medals, I think.

[Matt]

So he's got a bajillion medals?

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, something like that.

[Matt]

Sorry, guys, Sorry.

[Alan Sisto]

Gazillion. Bajillion somewhere in that range.

[Matt]

Yeah. Now the text smoothly segues into the attack itself explaining that while Rohan certainly expected an attack from Saruman he did move sooner than he'd hoped or planned for. Theodred had been warned about a buildup of Saruman's troops. They're gathering right at the gates so clearly getting ready for an attack.

[Alan Sisto]

Now his scouts explained that, look, they're mostly on the west side of the Isen. But hey, Theodore is just as aware of the geographical advantage as we are. He leaves some levied infantry on both sides of the ford. And just as a reminder, folks, a levy is a military force raised that means levied, typically from a local conscription. In this case, the Westfold.

[Matt]

Yeah, these are unlikely to be professional soldiers like Theodred's cavalry force. Yeah, this is more like farmer soldiers though hopefully reasonably prepared and equipped, one would hope.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

He also leaves what the text says is three companies of cavalry along with their additional mounts on the east side of the ford.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, the text keeps using the word companies but I have to say I'm hearing areds. Historically, companies of cavalry have been around 100 to 150. We know that a full arid is 120 riders including the commander. So company and arid are virtually interchangeable here. He then takes the bulk of his forces, eight companies plus a company of archers. So that's over a thousand men. And he heads west across the fords and turns up north up the road that goes along the west side of the Isen with the intent to destroy Saruman's army before it can get going. It's a good idea. It sounds like. Right?

[Matt]

It sounds like. But it would seem his scouts had given Theodred an incomplete picture.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Alyn, what comes next?

[Alan Sisto]

They were already on the march when Theodred set out. Some 20 miles north of the fords he encountered their vanguard and scattered it with loss. But when he rode on to attack the main host the resistance stiffened. The enemy was in fact in positions prepared for the event behind trenches manned by pikemen. And Theodred in the leading ered was brought to a stand and almost surrounded for new forces hastening from Isengard were now outflanking him upon the west. He was extricated by the onset of the companies coming up behind him. But as he looked eastward he was dismayed. It had been a dim and misty morning but the mists were now rolling back through the gap. On a breeze from the west and away east of the river he descried other forces now hasting towards the fords Though their strength could not be guessed, he at once ordered a retreat. This the riders, well trained in the maneuver, managed in good order and with little further loss. But the enemy was not shaken off or long outdistanced for the retreat was often delayed when the rear guard under Grimbold was obliged to turn at bay and drive back the the most eager of their pursuers. When Theodred gained the fords, the day was waning. He set Grimbold in command of the garrison of the west bank stiffened with 50 dismounted riders. The rest of his riders and all the horses he at once sent across the river save his own company. With these on foot he manned the eight to cover the retreat of Grimbold if he was driven back. This was barely done when disaster came. Sodoman's eastern force came down with unexpected speed. It was much smaller than the western force but more dangerous. In its van were some dunlending horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orkish wolf riders feared by horses. Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles. The horsemen and wolf riders fell on the horse herds and picketed horses and slew or dispersed them. The garrison of the east bank, surprised by the sudden assault of the massed Uruks was swept away and the riders that had just crossed from the west were caught still in disarray. And though they fought desperately they were driven from the fords along the line of the Isen with the Uruks in pursuit. Oh, this is a bad start.

[Matt]

Now, the problem with relying on messages from scouts is that the circumstances often change in the time that it takes to receive their reports then act on them. And here Saruman's forces are no longer mustering near the gates of Isengard. They're properly on the march.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Which is why Theodred and his nine total companies encountered the lead elements of Saruman's army a little more than halfway from the fords to Isengard.

[Matt]

Now, if we go back to book three, Chapter eight. As they're making their way to Isengard, Legolas asks how far it is from where they are and Gandalf answers. About 15 leagues as the Crows of Saruman make it, said Gandalf. Five from the mouth of the Deeping Coombe to the Fords and 10 more from there to the gates of Isengard.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, then 10 leagues from the fords to the gates of Isengard a league is three miles. So 30 miles from the fords and the text here says some 20 miles north of the fords is where Theodore encountered the vanguard. So two thirds of the way to Isengard.

[Matt]

Not surprisingly, his large mounted force made quick work of Saruman's vanguard. But he runs into a real problem after that.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, he sure does. Not only is the main force significantly stronger than the vanguard, you expect that, but they are ready for a cavalry charge. They dug trenches. They've equipped their forces with pikemen. This is not an army that was going down expecting to engage in battle at the fords. This was an army setting forth with the purpose of luring cavalry into an attack. Now I'm sure most of you can picture trenches and you know, with pikemen in it. But let's talk about a pike. It isn't just a spear or some other weapon with a bit of reach. These are 16 to 18 foot long, typically really, really long. They're made of ash. Because of their length they needed to be of strong wood to prevent sagging. At least they were often made of ash. They needed to be made of some sort of really strong wood. And they were equipped with a spear point at the end. Basically a force equipped with these is specifically an anti cavalry force. And they're prepared in dug trenches. That's pretty insane. They're already ready for this.

[Matt]

Yeah, Aside from the dug trenches. This reminds me of the movie Braveheart. You know, they do that, that one cavalry charge against them and they wait till the last minute to pull up the pikes and they, they are about this length. So yeah, I think huge. Aside from the trenches. You can think Braveheart when you think of this moment.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah. Or you think a little bit of the Two Towers in the Jackson films with Gandalf leading the charge of the horsemen down to save Helm's Deep. And you see that they're ready with their pikes. But then Gandalf does the thing that.

[Matt]

He does with the sunlight and.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, they turn off.

[Matt]

It kind of helps. Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Trolls in daylight. Well, orcs in daylight. They lift up their arms and I'm useless. Just hold those things, point them down. You can look up all you want but keep them pointing.

[Matt]

Right? Yeah, just hold it in the same spot and you're good.

[Alan Sisto]

So I'm trying to figure this out. The Isengard force, did they have Scouts of their own. I mean. Or maybe the vanguard held up the force long enough to dig the trenches. Though that seems unlikely. This seems like a pretty high level of preparedness and tactics from a force that, let's be honest, isn't usually known for tactical complexity or thinking things through beyond. Kill men. Smash.

[Matt]

You know.

[Alan Sisto]

So what do you think? Do you think that they scouted them out? What. What do you think was going on here? Did they just assume we're going to be attacked so let's prepare defensively first?

[Matt]

Yeah. I think, you know, especially if they were confident that their numbers would be underestimated, you know, then they've got to think, okay, they got 10,000.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

The Horsemen are going to have a better advantage not fighting in the water. Well, yeah, that's true on horseback. So, yeah, I think they took an educated guess and maybe they thought like, worst case scenario, we build a bunch of unnecessary trenches. Yeah. Then we continue marching later. But like, the risk reward. The risk reward is much higher for. For digging the trenches than not.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fair point. I also wonder now, now that we also have an understanding of what happens on the east side if they were there to prevent, let's say, the retreat. They were manning the fords and they're just manning the fords pointing outwards, west and east. Force comes down the east side. The Rohirrim retreat over the fords but go north to go attack Eisenguard. Like, hey, well, now that they've come down here to attack us, we're going to go up the northern road to attack Eisengar. Now that they've been emptied and then lo and behold, they run into this. It could have been that. It's just interesting. Like, I don't know that they scouted this out. I mean, we do see that this army makes a lot of mistakes when they attack Helm's Deep. You know, they make some significant errors that cost them that battle.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

So, yeah. I don't know. But I like that you're right. It's risk award. Okay, Worst case scenario, we've dug some unnecessary holes and I don't think anybody there is going to be complaining to their union boss. Right. They were forced.

[Matt]

They made it these stupid holes and then. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. We're killing you now next. Yeah, exactly.

[Matt]

So not only have they dug trenches and equipped the right weapons to fight a cavalry charge. Yeah. The reinforcements still coming from Isengard. And remember, the gates are just 10 miles to the north. Are now coming around and flanking Theodred and his leading Aorid, that's 120 men again to his west.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, fortunately, his other companies arrive and. Get him out of this place. You can't park there, sir. We gotta get. Get him out of there. Get him out of there. Yeah.

[Matt]

But as they're pulling back from this conflict, he looks across the Isen, and thanks to a change in the wind, he can see across the river.

[Alan Sisto]

Not that what he sees is a good thing. No, he sees some of Saruman's forces going down the east side of the river towards the ford. So he wisely calls a retreat. And of course, they're experienced riders. They're able to pull this retreat off without much loss. Right. They're. They know how to do this.

[Matt]

Yeah. But Saruman's forces chase the retreat and harry them, which causes the rear guard company under Grimbold's leadership to turn and drive them off. This slows down the retreat as a whole.

[Alan Sisto]

It does. But once again, we have an important rear guard action. In Tolkien, how many times have we talked about the importance of rear guard actions? Now the day is almost over, right? It says the day is waning by the time Theodore gets back to the forts. Now, we don't know the timing of the previous moves, though it's relatively safe to assume the scouting report was no earlier than daybreak because how would you see the troops massing unless it was daybreak? Scouts come back probably very early in the morning. So it's been an all day sort of thing. Grimbold, having proven himself and his riders in the rear guard, is put in charge of the west bank of the fords. Now, the text says that he's been reinforced by 50 dismounted riders. I want your opinion, Matt. Are these riders strategically dismounted to fight on foot because of the terrain? Right. I mean, they're there at the ford, so like you said, they're not going to fight in the river on their horses. Or are these riders who lost their mounts when charging those pikes in trenches earlier?

[Matt]

Yeah, I, I can't imagine the survival rate is very high if you've lost your steed in a pike incident. That's a fair point.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I mean, that's. Yeah. I don't know.

[Matt]

I kind of always assumed that they had lost their mounts and that they would naturally be toward the back of the retreat because they're unmounted.

[Alan Sisto]

That makes sense. Yeah.

[Matt]

I don't know. Would there be any advantage to, like, purposely unmount it? You know, it seems sacrilegious for the Rohirrim to like.

[Alan Sisto]

Well, depending on how you're going to dismount if you know that you're going to be fighting an infantry force. So a cavalry force is going to do better against infantry if the cavalry is on the move.

[Matt]

Right, right.

[Alan Sisto]

You want the cavalry charging a stationary infantry. You don't want a moving infantry charging a stationary cavalry.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Alan Sisto]

So I think that might be why you would dismount them is if they're fighting a defensive battle at the ford and also where the terrain would be a problem because you don't want the horses getting mud or anything like that, as we saw in Rings of Power.

[Matt]

Oh, right, yeah, yeah. You don't charge right into the mud.

[Alan Sisto]

No, bad idea. So, I don't know. These could be a mix of both. I mean, I have a feeling that's really what it is, is riders who have survived on foot, maybe by fighting in Grimbold's rear guard action, but also some who are being taken off their horses in order to fight effectively in that set of circumstances. Defensive battle at the fords. I don't know. Let's find out.

[Matt]

So Theodred sends the rest of his forces across to the east side to handle this oncoming army while he stays on the small island to be the rear guard for Grimbold if he needs to retreat.

[Alan Sisto]

Just going to call out that rear guard action again. That's what I do. Yeah, we see it all the time. And now that I'm thinking about it, it's like, wow, these are constantly happening.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Now, preparations in place as much as could be when disaster strikes. Saruman's forces on the east side have arrived quicker than anticipated. And yes, it was a smaller force than the one they hit on the west side. But the text says it's more dangerous, partly because it's so mobile, including horsemen from Dunland and Orcs riding wolves.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, these latter troops especially terrify their horses because, as the footnote explains, at need they would pass with reckless ferocity through any gaps in companies of horsemen, slashing at the bellies of the horses. So, yeah, this is not something that the horses are cool with. They are terrified of these Orc wolf riders. Now, these wolf riders were typically used not to attack a cavalry unit, but to chase down retreating foes or wipe out small, isolated groups of soldiers. Soldiers. They were not a heavy cavalry force designed to charge any units.

[Matt]

Now, behind the Dunland horsemen and the Orc wolf Riders came two full battalions of fierce and powerful Uruks.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a lot. I mean, look, Tolkien does not give us numbers. Again, he spoke about Companies. Now he's speaking about battalions. A battalion is always bigger than a company. It's usually made up of several companies. In modern armies, a battalion is around 1,000 troops. So this could easily be 2,000 uruks.

[Matt]

Yeah. And these Uruks, just like we see in the films, are trained to move at great speed for many miles. So they're a perfect infantry force to accompany what is essentially a light cavalry.

[Alan Sisto]

That's true. Yeah. The Dunlon horsemen and the Orc wolf riders. That speed proves fatal for the rohirrim that are on the eastern side of the ford. The extra horses, remember they talked about the horse herd and then the additional war horses that they brought. All those horses are either killed or driven away and the entire garrison that was there was swept away.

[Matt]

It was so bad that even the forces sent over the fords by Theodred to reinforce that side got caught and weren't able to organize and fight.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's a large amount too. Remember he went up with I think it was eight companies plus a company of archers. We know that Grimbold and his company were left behind along with 50 more. So maybe that's the remnants of one arid. He and his own unit stay on top of the the eight in the river. So that's 1, 2, 3 units, 3 arids. So we're looking at least 500 troops that maybe 600 depending on how many got killed in the initial fight, but at least 500. One would assume they were not able to organize. And so they get swept away by the assault.

[Matt]

Yeah. And they retreated from the fords down the riverside, so southwards on the east side of the Isen while the Uruks chase them down and we'll find out.

[Alan Sisto]

What happens to them later on.

[Matt]

I.

[Alan Sisto]

Can say to my new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, hey, find a keto friendly restaurant nearby and text it to Beth and Steve. And it does without me lifting a finger. So. So I can get in more squats anywhere I can. 1, 2, 3. Will that be cash or credit?

[Matt]

Credit.

[Alan Sisto]

4 Galaxy S25 Ultra the AI companion that does the heavy lifting. So you can do you get [e-mail] compatible with select apps.

[Matt]

Requires Google Gemini account.

[Alan Sisto]

Results may vary based on input.

[Matt]

Check responses for accuracy.

[Alan Sisto]

You know what's smart? Enjoying a fresh gourmet meal at home that you didn't have to cook. Meet factor your loophole in the laws of mealtime. Chef crafted meals delivered with a tap, ready in just two minutes. You know what's even smarter? Treating yourself without cheating your goals. Factor is dietitian approved, chef prepared, and you plated. Pretty smart huh? Refresh your routine and eat smart with Factor. Learn more@Factor Meals.com now folks, if you're enjoying the Prancing Money podcast, please consider supporting the show by joining the Fellowship of the Podcast. This is what gives me the time and resources to work on making this show better every season and hopefully every episode. When you join, you get the best discord community around. That includes live episode recordings, hangouts. Every month you get episode post scripts, you can get ad free episodes free free merch and more.

[Matt]

You can also become part of our Questions After Nightfall episodes or even join us as a guest in the north wing. So Please go to patreon.com prancingponypod to show your support and join the Fellowship of the Podcast.

[Alan Sisto]

And of course you can also help us out by giving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and a rating on Spotify. And please recommend us to your friends in the meantime. You know what I'm not going to recommend to my friends? Defending the Fords of Isen. I think it's a tough job, but Matt, would you tell us what happens when Elfhelm arrives As soon as the.

[Matt]

Enemy had gained possession of the eastern end of the fords, there appeared a company of men, or orcmen, evidently dispatched for the purpose. Ferocious mail clad and armed with axes, they hastened to the Eight and assailed it from both sides at the same time. Grimbold, on the west bank, was attacked by Saruman's forces on that side of the Isen. As he looked eastward, dismayed by the sounds of battle and the hideous orc cries of victory, he saw the axemen driving Theodred's men from the shores of the Eight toward the low knoll in its center, and he heard Theodred's great voice crying to me, eorlingas. At once Grimbold, taking a few men that stood near him, ran back to the Eight. So fierce was his onset from the rear of the attackers, that Grimbold, a man of great strength and stature, clove his way through, till with two others he reached Theodred, standing at bay on the knoll, too late. As he came to his side, Theodred fell, hewn down by a great orc man. Grimbold slew him, and stood over the body of Theodred, thinking him dead, and there he would himself soon had died, but for the coming of of Elfhelm. Elfhelm had been riding in haste along the horse road from Edoras, leading four companies in answer to Theodred's summons. He was expecting battle, but not yet for some days. But near the junction of the horse road with the road down from the Deeping, his outriders on the right flank reported that two wolfriders had been seen abroad in the fields. Sensing that things were amiss, he. He did not turn aside to Helm's Deep for the night as he had intended, but rode with all speed towards the fords. The horse road turned northwest after its meeting with the Deeping Road, but again bent sharply west when level with the fords which it approached by a straight path of some two miles long. Elfhelm thus heard and saw nothing of the fighting between the retreating garrison and the Uruks south of the forts. The sun had sunk and light was failing when he drew near the last bend in the road and there encountered some horses running wild and a few fugitives who told him of the disaster.

[Alan Sisto]

All right, well, going back to the beginning of the passage, you read clearly this was the plan all along. Isolate Theodred. Right. You know, we've got, we've got a situation now where it's just Theodora and one company of men on the island in the river. So as soon as Saruman's forces secured the east side of the fords, with many Uterux chasing down the garrison, remember we see an elite company of troops that the chronicler believes had a single mission to find and kill Theodred.

[Matt]

They're well armed and well armored and are described as ferocious.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. And the text says that they're men or orc men. But since we later see that a great orc man is featured, I think we can assume that these are either half orcs or a mix of men and. And half orcs.

[Matt]

Yeah. And they hurried straight to the small island and attacked it from both sides, clearly solely focused on killing the heir to the throne.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now at the same time, and not coincidentally, I'm guessing Grimbold and his forces, that's the garrison that was originally left there, plus Grimbold and his people, along with 50 unmounted cavalry, are attacked by the forces of Sodom and that still remained on the west side. I mean, they'd been harassing the retreat earlier. So it's not a surprise that. That this force is here on the west side so quickly.

[Matt]

Yeah. And we switch briefly to Grimbold's perspective, seeing the attack on Theodred from the west side of the fords as he looks back to the east and he sees these axe wielding half orcs advancing toward the small Hill in the middle of the island. Then he hears his lord, the king's son, cry out to me, aorlingas.

[Alan Sisto]

So Grimbold does as he's commanded. Right. I mean, to me, Aorlingis means what it says. So he heads over there, takes a few men, races towards Theodred, and he attacks these elite forces from the rear because they're surrounding Theodorid. So you combine the fact that he's attacking from the rear with the fierceness of his attack and his own nature as a man of great strength and stature, and no wonder he makes it through the enemy to Theodorus side.

[Matt]

Yeah. But unfortunately, only in time to see him struck down by this giant half orc. Oh, and Grimbold kills the half orc and he stands over Theodred to protect his body, fully expecting that he would die here.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. This is where I stand. This is where I'm going to die. I'm going to die protecting the body of my lord. Man, this is some powerful stuff right here. I mean, this has a real Beowulfian feel to it.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Northern feel to it. I almost think a little bit of son and the battle there at Malden.

[Matt]

Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, there's some real imagery here also. What a line that was. Simple sentence, two words too late.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Man, that hits like a ton of bricks, doesn't it?

[Matt]

It does, it does. Oh, my gosh.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. Well, thankfully, the other hero of tonight's action shows up, and that's Elfilm. And yes, that's the same elf Helm who almost certainly knew Eowyn was riding with his men. The same elf Helm who tripped over the Sleeping Mary. It's a good guy.

[Matt]

And it turns out elf Helm's got some pretty good battlefield instincts. You know, he's been hurrying along the road from Etterus to the Fords, as he'd been summoned by Theodred, presumably for this very fight that they didn't think would happen so quickly.

[Alan Sisto]

Right now, he was leading a sizable force of four companies. Again, I'm thinking four aids. So just shy of 500 men. And he's near the split in the road that would have taken him to Helm's Deep.

[Matt]

Yeah, and that was the original plan, to go to Helm's Deep, rest his men overnight, then link up with Theodred in the morning. But his scouts reported seeing a couple of Orc wolf riders out in the fields, and he knows something's not right here. So, yeah, that's.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a bad sign right there.

[Matt]

That's not a common thing to see or A desirable thing to see, I should say.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

So he heads as fast as he can for the fords.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now, if we go back to the bit with Gandalf explaining how far it was from the Deeping Coombe to Isengard he said it's five leagues from the deep to the fords. That's 15 miles. But this is only the road that leads to the deep. So clearly it's a lot less. It's a very short sprint.

[Matt]

Yeah, but it is more than two miles because the road is said to cut northwest first then go straight west for the final two miles to the fords.

[Alan Sisto]

That's fair. But because of that he didn't see the forces that were retreating and being chased by the Uruks. And in a way that's a good thing because if he had seen Rohirrim being chased by Uruks going down south on the east side of the Isen he might have gone after them to chase rescue them and Grimbold would have died. But instead, Elfelm goes straight to the fords into the setting sun.

[Matt]

And as he gets closer, he gets a few updates from retreating soldiers and steps on the gas ordering his 500 men to charge as they approach the east bank of the ford.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right.

[Matt]

Now let's. Let's just get right into it and find out what happens next.

[Alan Sisto]

Absolutely. It was the turn of the Isengarders to be surprised. They heard the thunder of hooves and saw coming like black shadows against the darkening east a great host, as it seemed with Elf Helm at its head and beside him a white standard born as a guide to those that followed. Few stood their ground. Most fled northwards pursued by two of Elfhelm's companies. The others he dismounted to guard the east bank but at once, with the men of his own company rushed to the eight. The axemen were now caught between the surviving defenders and the onslaught of Elfelm. With both banks still held by the Rohirrim they fought on but before the end were slain to a man. Elfhelm himself, however, sprang up towards the gnoll and there he found Grimbold fighting two great axemen for possession of Theodred's body. One Elfhelm at once slew and the other fell before Grimbold. They stooped then to lift the body and found that Theodred still breathed. But he lived only long enough to speak his last words. Let me lie here to keep the fords till Eomer comes. Night fell, a harsh horn sounded and then all was silent. The attack on the west bank ceased and the enemy there faded away into the dark. The Rohirrim held the fords of Isen but their losses were heavy, not least in horses. The king's son was dead and they were leaderless and did not know what might yet befall. When after a cold and sleepless night the gray light returned there was no sign of the Isengarders save those many that they left dead upon the field. Wolves were howling far off waiting for the living men to depart. Many men scattered by the sudden assault of the Isengarders began to return. Some still mounted, some leading horses recaptured. Later in the morning most of the riders that had been driven south down the river by a battalion of black Uruks came back battle worn but in good order. They had a like tale to tell. They came to a stand on a low hill and prepared to defend it. Though they had drawn off part of the attacking force of Isengard retreat south unprovisioned was in the end hopeless. The Uruks had resisted any attempt to burst eastwards and and were driving them towards the now hostile country of the Dunlandish West March. But as the riders prepared to resist their assault though it was now full night, a horn was sounded and soon they discovered that the enemy had gone. They had too few horses to attempt any pursuit or even to act as scouts so far as that would have availed by night. After some time they began cautiously to advance north again but met no opposition. They thought that the Uruks had gone back to reinforce their hold on the fords and expected there to meet in battle again. And they wondered much to find the Rohirrim in command. It was not till later that they discovered whether the Uruks had gone. So ended the first battle of the Fords of Isen.

[Matt]

There it is.

[Alan Sisto]

There it is. The first Battle of the Fords of Isen's in the books.

[Matt]

Yeah. Which in case you guys haven't picked up on, that means there is a second battle of the Forge of Isen because that's.

[Alan Sisto]

That's the clue. That's usually the clue when I say the first. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

[Matt]

Now, if Theodred and the Rohirrim were surprised earlier now it's the forces of Saruman who are seeing the day slip away.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, as an aside, we've seen Tolkien do this sort of thing masterfully before, right? We have one side winning and then something suddenly happens that benefits the other side and so on. It gets this real back and forth and sometimes it happens multiple times in the same battle. To me it seems to show a genuine understanding of the flow of battle and how it really can switch back and forth from one side to the other.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. Now, coming back to the text, these half Orcs, Uruks and Dunlendings are more than a bit dismayed by the onset of Elf Helm.

[Alan Sisto]

Wouldn't we all? I mean, the thunder of hooves like a cavalry charge has got to be one of the most terrifying sights for an unprepared infantry to face. I can't even conceive of what that would be like.

[Matt]

And as the sun goes down in the west, these foes are looking towards the darkening east and see what appears to be a huge force of riders which, as you said earlier, Alan, it's close to 500 men. And they're led by Elf Helm and his standard bearer using a white flag for visibility, I'd guess. Not surprisingly, their units break, with most fleeing to the north followed by half of Elf Helm's force, which would be about two companies.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, about 240 guys. And of course they're going to flee to the north. That's where Isengard is. Now. Elf Helm has most of the rest dismount to fight on foot, which suggests what we talked about earlier, that in this situation if you're going to be fighting a defensive battle at the fords, you're going to get off and be dismounted. Well, he takes his own company to the small island where Grimbald has just reached Theodred. So Elfhelm had a company and was leading four companies, so we could see this as five. But it's more likely that it was he and his company plus three more. So in that case he's got two companies chasing the enemy north and that's on the east side of the Isen. He's got one company dismounted to protect the east bank and one company with him to the island.

[Matt]

Now these elite forces that had attacked Theodred are in a tough spot. They're caught between Grimbold and and the other defenders and this new and strong force attacking from the east. And they couldn't flee, so they fought and died. To a man.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Or to an orc, as the case may be. Or to an orc man, really.

[Matt]

Or an orc man.

[Alan Sisto]

Now Elfilm gets to the top of that small hill where Grimbold is fighting to protect Theodore's body and they each get a kill before tending to the king's son.

[Matt]

And he's actually still alive, but barely. And Only long enough to speak his final words. He says he wants to be left here to guard the fords until Eomer arrives.

[Alan Sisto]

I love that. It goes back to what we talked about at the very beginning of the episode. These two are very close. They're brothers, and they feel that. And even at this very last moment of his life, he is thinking about Amer. Now, of course, Amer is out and about. He does not know about this attack. This is happening the night of February 25th. And two days later, before news of this attack gets to Edoras, Eomer will take his ered in search of the Orc band that has come into Rohan from the Emin Muil. So he won't know until far too late.

[Matt]

Until he gets back. Yeah. Now Theodred dies. Night falls and there's the sound of an enemy horn followed by total silence.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

The attack on the east side was scattered by the arrival of Elfhelm. The attack on the west side has ended with what appears to be a retreat.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, sure, Rohan still holds the fords. You win, but what cost, right? Not only have they lost men, but they've lost horses. That is a heavy price for them. I mean, that's exactly how they fight. They have paid a heavy, heavy toll.

[Matt]

Yeah. But more than that, of course, the king's son is dead now. They don't have a leader and they have no clue to what's going to happen next.

[Alan Sisto]

I would argue they have at least two leaders, Elfhelm and Grimbold. They're just not a. Yet. Yeah, I mean, I know what the text is saying. They're leaderless in that sense because Theodore is dead. They don't have a marshal, though. Elfelm ends up becoming a marshal. Yeah. I mean, clearly they have men who can lead. And these two have made some. Some good decisions. Now, the next morning, which is February 26, also the day of the breaking of the Fellowship and the death of Boromir, the Rohirrim wake up and take stock of the situation.

[Matt]

Yeah. They find only the dead of Saruman's forces. Although they hear the wolves far off.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And some of the Rohirrim that had been driven off were coming back, some with horses. So that's some. Some help.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Especially the ones that are coming back with extra horses. We find out then what happened to those riders that had been driven south along the river the day before. Remember? Then we read the riders that had just crossed from the west were caught still in disarray. And though they fought desperately, they were driven from the fords along the line of the Isen, with the Uruks in pursuit.

[Matt]

Yeah. And they'd come back, the text says, battle worn but intact.

[Alan Sisto]

And that's better than the alternative. It turns out they'd reached the point where they knew, look, we've drawn off part of their forces from attacking the fords. But we cannot keep going south. We simply don't have the provisions to go through Gondor and take the long road home.

[Matt]

Yeah, it'd be a very long road home.

[Alan Sisto]

Months. Months and months. And they have no provisions. They'd start.

[Matt]

They would miss the rest of the War of the Rich, basically. Now, they'd been driven by the Uruks toward the West March, which we talked about earlier as now being very Dunlendish. No loyalty to Etterus. They still remember good old fat Freca.

[Alan Sisto]

I know. And why you remember him in a good light, I don't understand. But okay. Right.

[Matt]

Yes. Yeah. So they finally take their stand on a small hill, ready to die in the middle of the night. But then the horn blows and the enemy retreated.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, normally, you'd think the Rohirrim would do something about that. They would. They would harry the retreat or at least try to scout it out. But they didn't have the men to chase them down or even follow them. So they slowly made their way up very cautiously towards the fords and were more than a bit surprised to find that Rohan was still in control and not fighting the Uruks.

[Matt]

And thus ends the first battle of.

[Alan Sisto]

The Fords of Isen, which again suggests there will be a second battle of the Fords of Isen.

[Matt]

Stay tuned, ladies and gents.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, they thought that the Uruks had gone back to reinforce their hold on the fords and expected there to meet in battle again. And they wondered much. I mean, I would, too, to find Barlaman in command. It was not till later that they discovered whether the mailbag had gone. Matt, what does Barliman have for us tonight besides more awful segues?

[Matt]

So Barlaman's got a note here from Alice from Texas, who says, I think a lot of fans of Tolkien books like to point out changes they don't like when books are made into movies or TV shows. But are there any changes you think are actually good? Obviously, you know, I've. I think I've said here on this podcast, you know, I. I much prefer, like, the book version of Gandalf versus the Witch King. And Mina's here, like, that's. That's one of my big Ones.

[Alan Sisto]

And I much prefer the book version of Faramir.

[Matt]

Yeah. And. And, like, on the Faramir one, like, I understand why.

[Alan Sisto]

Like, sure, I can understand it from a cinematic standpoint, but I'm like, don't you dare do Firemir dirty like that. I mean, he's my favorite character. You've gone and turned him into a. You know, I need to please my dad so much. I'm going to take the ring back to what.

[Matt]

But I like that he gets to where he needs to be by the end. I will say, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, I'll still disagree. Only because they make. They make that out to be a Sam thing. Like, Sam helps Faramir to be the man he was meant to be.

[Matt]

No, I see.

[Alan Sisto]

To me, Faramir is just who he is. I mean, this is the guy who says, were I to find this thing on the side of the road and I could save Minas Tirith, I alone, I would still not do it. Right.

[Matt]

It's a pretty great. Which we get like, a variation of that, like, later in Return of the King. Like the line. I'm glad that they worked the line in, because I do love that line so much.

[Alan Sisto]

But this was about things we like, not things we don't like. So I'm going to stop talking about that. Things we liked in adaptations hinder me. No, I did not like that. Sorry. I'm actually trying to cast my mind back to those early adaptations and think if there's anything in the Rankin and Bass Hobbit or the Bakshi Lord of the Rings that I liked.

[Matt]

Yeah. So. So what I was, you know, kind of building up to that was like, you know, we do kind of think changes that we don't like for whatever reason. Like, that's where our mind goes. But as I was thinking about this, there's some interesting ones that I actually do really like. One, one from the. The Hobbit films is from a filmmaking perspective is how Bilbo understands the spiders when he puts the ring.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. That was good like that.

[Matt]

Because going into those films, I was like, how are they gonna do that? Because they don't have any other talking animals. You know, the eagles don't talk. And I'm like, how are they just gonna have these spiders randomly talk? And I thought that was really clever how they made that work.

[Alan Sisto]

I'll go back to the Hobbit movies as well. I'll say that I really did like the introduction of the Dwarves as individual characters. We didn't get that in the books. No, no disrespect. To Tolkien. He was just doing his job. It was not a story that we needed to. When you've got characters that aren't going to do anything, you don't need to really introduce them as individual characters. So I get why he didn't tell us every single thing about every one of these other Dwarves. But I did, like, since the movie was going to do more in depth and be longer than it needed to be, they had to give the Dwarves some individual personality. And I thought they did a good job with that.

[Matt]

Yeah. And that's part of the reason why I like the first one the best too, is I think it does the best job of giving us individual traits of each of the Dwarves.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. I think the hard part, now that I realize this, the hard part about this question from Alice is that our brains are kind of tending to think of Tolkien's work as so good that any change is going to be bad. And so it's much easier to say, I don't like this change, I don't like that change. I don't like this change. Instead, I like when they really stuck to the lore. Like, I really like when they did this exact thing. Right. But that's not a change. So trying to find things that were changes that we'd like.

[Matt]

So I've got to change. Okay, so this one is kind of a halfway. And then I'll get. I'll get to some outright changes here in a bit. But moving Gandalf's line to Moria instead of Bag End about pity and Gollum.

[Alan Sisto]

Yes. Okay.

[Matt]

I thought that was a great change because we get that wonderful iconic line in Bag End, like half a book from Gollum even entering the picture. And it's great, you know, you're talking about Gollum. Like, it makes sense to like learn that lesson. But the way it hits, when it hits in the films right before we lose Gandalf, like, it's. It's masterful how they. It is fit that. Where they fit that. It was such a good call, I think.

[Alan Sisto]

I think so too. I'm gonna add another one from that film. And that is, though, in this case now I actually have to credit Bakshi a little bit. And it was the idea of a prologue to set the stage. I do love reading the books is a wonderful experience and starting out at a long expected party makes perfect sense. But I do really admire how both Bakshi and Jackson created prologues that gave us enough backstory to get invested in the story immediately. Yeah, I'm not nuts about the way back she executed, I thought it was pretty. Pretty choppy and kind of not so great. But the idea was good, and it's clear that that inspired Jackson to do the springboard.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And he created a prologue that was really, really ideal.

[Matt]

Oh, it's incredible.

[Alan Sisto]

It is. It's really. It sucked me in immediately. And the thing I liked about it is that it would take anybody who'd never read the books and immediately give them enough to care. And it was so well done.

[Matt]

And the. And the masterful thing, and not to get too much into, you know, I. I don't care to, like, pit adaptations against each other, but I think it. It's helpful in. In comparison. One of the things that I've often said is you look at the Lord of the Rings prologue versus, like, the Rings of Power season one prologue.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And on the surface, you have, like, okay, we've got this big, dark villain. We've got the setup and everything. But one of them works in a way, I think, the other doesn't, in that the Lord of the Rings prologue, every character that you meet, every event that happens, is going to have echoes throughout the entire trilogy.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Whereas Rings of Power, we focus on Morgoth, and it's like, Morgoth isn't coming into this story.

[Alan Sisto]

No.

[Matt]

Like, no. And so, like, there's. There's these things doors and I.

[Alan Sisto]

Locked, man.

[Matt]

Right. Yeah. Where, like, they check the boxes of, like, okay, epic villain, great evil trees, big epic battles. But these are things that don't really echo throughout the rest of the story.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah. There's no callback to the Nirnaeth. There's no callback to the Hill of the Slain. None of those other things that are sort of hinted at in the prologue.

[Matt]

And I mean, to credit where it's due, like, the Lord of the Rings prologue is arguably the greatest prologue. It's a masterpiece of all time.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

You know, it is a masterpiece. So I. I can't harp too much on, like, you didn't do as good of a job. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You didn't do as good a job as perfection. Yeah. Right.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

That's a fair point. I mean, that really is an ideal prologue.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, there are a couple other things I really actually did like. How about one? This is an interesting one. It's a change that initially I did not like. I criticized this change, and Sean helped me kind of come around to a different position on this. And it's the presence of the elves at Helm's Deep, really. Because it's interesting. Yeah. It's the only way, really, that they could show realistically that the elves were as invested in this fight. You know, we learn in the appendices that Lorien was assaulted and had to fight these battles at the edges of the wood. We know that Dale was attacked. We know that Erebor was attacked. This was a way to show that the other. It wasn't just men that were being attacked by Sauron. I think they kind of overplayed the hand a little bit. I'm not necessarily nuts about the way that change was executed, but I think in hindsight, with the understanding of the fact that they couldn't show all that detail in the appendices, that that was really actually a pretty effective change in bringing that element of the story to the fore.

[Matt]

Yeah, no, that makes sense. That's one that I've not. I'm. I'm not as upset about as a lot of people seem to be about the elves being at Helm's Deep. Like, it's. It's not a make or break for me. And it's. It's. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I mean, it was never, like, a major one.

[Matt]

Helm's Deep.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

Helm's Deep is, like, the greatest battle ever committed to film. So I. I'm not gonna critique it because, like, it's freaking amazing.

[Alan Sisto]

I still think the battle of the pollen or fields might be a little better. I like the.

[Matt]

That'd be an interesting debate one day.

[Alan Sisto]

Maybe because I'm old and blind and can't stand watching a battle in the dark.

[Matt]

In the dark. Oh, man. Yeah. The readers don't help with that one. But the.

[Alan Sisto]

Wow. Thanks, Matt.

[Matt]

The survival rate of elves at Helm's Deep is not good, by the way.

[Alan Sisto]

No, it is not. It is not.

[Matt]

Here's one that I think, like, I think there'll be some people who really cringe at me saying this.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh, boy.

[Matt]

Arwen. Placing Glorfindel I actually think is a great move. Like, not that it's. I won't say that it's like an improvement over the book, but I think it's something that was a great move for an adaptation because at the end of the day, Glorfindel, as cool as he is, he's not gonna have a lasting impact on the story. And Arwen, you know, by the end, like, she's the Queen of Gondor at the end. Like, we need to give a crap about why Aragorn cares about Arwen. We need to give a crap about her character and. And see, like, you know, why is. Why is she Important to the story and, like, giving her an introduction that is meaningful and showing her as a quality character in her own right, I think. I think sets her up well. And I think they just did a really good job of taking that opportunity to introduce a character that otherwise you would have had to tack on time, run time to do, and, like, it.

[Alan Sisto]

Would have felt like her.

[Matt]

It would. Yeah. It would have felt like extra tacked on stuff in Rivendell. Whereas it was so economical and so smart the way that they said, okay, we're gonna give Glorfindel his role and his horse to Arwen.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

And let her do that. And. And then we also get, like, one of the most compelling chases, you know, that iconic chase.

[Alan Sisto]

The camera. Yeah.

[Matt]

It's so amazing. So. Yeah, that's one that. That, like, you know, I. I love Glorfindel's story, especially when you factor in the Silmarillion and his killing a Val. Yeah. Killing a Balrog and like, being reincarnated. It's so cool. I think he would be amazing to include in a. In an Angmar adaptation.

[Alan Sisto]

Oh. Oh, yes. In an Angmar adaptation. 100%. I want him in there.

[Matt]

Yeah. If an Angmar adaptation happens, bring in Glorfin.

[Alan Sisto]

He better be there.

[Matt]

And let's.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's have him.

[Matt]

But. But for this case, I think replacing him with Arwen was the right call.

[Alan Sisto]

I'm going to say it made sense. I'm not going to go. I'm not going to cringe and say it was a bad choice on your. On your part to mention it. I don't know that I'm going to say it was a change I really liked, though. It was a change I definitely understood for the exact reasons you cited. Right. Just cinematically, we had to care about this character because she was going to be Aragorn's love interest. We couldn't read about it in appendix A1 5. Right. I mean, we had to have that in the story. So I totally understood it. And I did like the way they executed it. I felt like they did that really well. I felt like she really carried that character strongly. Carry that moment strongly. And like you said, the chase was just flat out epic. I'm going to end this section with one more. And it's actually related to what we talked about today with Theodred in the books. Of course, we don't see anything about Theodred's death. We don't.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

You know, none of this is in the story. Just that, hey, it was only Five days ago that we found out your son died.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

I liked the addition. Now I'm trying to remember because I only watched the extended editions. I think it was only in the extended edition that we see Eomer discovering Theodred's body. I think that's only in the extended edition.

[Matt]

That's correct. Yep.

[Alan Sisto]

But it was also in the original. Did we not also get Eowyn's funeral song?

[Matt]

Yes, we did.

[Alan Sisto]

That may have. I can't remember if that was original or extended. I wonder if maybe the doors to the tomb closed and then it was cut. I don't remember now.

[Matt]

No, I think we did get it in the.

[Alan Sisto]

I think we did in the original in the theater. I see. I seem to remember seeing it and being moved to tears. It was so beautiful. And of course, it's another example of wonderful Old English being brought in to. To. To Rohan. I think seeing the symbol Mina on the mound as his body was being. I mean, all of that. And of course, of course, the incredible moment for Barnard Hill.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

When he weeps. And it's just no parent should have to bury their child.

[Matt]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And even though I can tease about joking and how Theoden wouldn't have said that, he would have said, no father should have because parents French origin word and father is a German origin word and Old English wouldn't have used that word. But whatever. The moment cinematically hit me so hard and still does, even thinking about it. And it's probably the moment in the films that conveys some of the most real emotion.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And it led to that. So I think the addition of Theodred's death and the funeral sequence and all of that was perhaps the change that I liked the most. And I'm glad that it ties it into the episode that we did today.

[Matt]

Yeah. And I will say, you know, there's a lot of little moments too, to like.

[Alan Sisto]

Yeah.

[Matt]

To kind of wrap it, you know, when you talk about that, because it's such a small moment. It's like a line of dialogue here and there that matches so well with the themes of 100. I mean, like, I think of Boromir when he dies in the books, like, it's sad and like Aragorn says, like, you know, you've overcome and everything. But like in the films, when he says, my brother, my captain, my king, like, oh, I know.

[Alan Sisto]

Rip my heart out. Yeah.

[Matt]

Right. Or like, you bow to no one at the end of the Return of the King, like, these are things that, you know, they. They Just do. It's such a good job, you know, when, when you have to, like, sometimes double check yourself. Was that in the books or am I. Like, there are, there's, there's a good number of those where it's like, is that line from the books? And like, that's the mark of a great adaptation. Right? There is like, when.

[Alan Sisto]

If you have to ask yourself that and you genuinely don't know.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah. When you genuinely are like, wait, is that. Am I just remembering that from the films or was that in the books? And like, there's a good number of those.

[Alan Sisto]

I don't want to be too hard on Rings of Power, but can I be honest with you and tell you, there's not a lot of dialogue in that show where I say to myself, hmm, is that something I read in the appendices or maybe. No, it's true Unfinished Tales.

[Matt]

No, I was thinking they're doing a.

[Alan Sisto]

Better job in season two of making it feel Tolkienian, I think, but not. They're nowhere still up to that level.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think, like, I, I still think the high water mark for the show and season two was Celebrimbor saying, hear me, Shadow of Morgoth. So hear now the dying words of Celebrimbor. Like that. That's the closest they've come.

[Alan Sisto]

That felt right there, you know, to.

[Matt]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

And I'm glad you pointed that out because that really was a moment.

[Matt]

Yes. But yet that's hands down, like season one. My. My favorite moment was the shot coming over the hill and seeing Tyrion and the two trees. Yeah, like that. That was hands down, like, that was.

[Alan Sisto]

The moment my heart stopped.

[Matt]

Yeah. But this one, like season two, actually had a moment because of the dialogue and, like, the characters and not just purely visuals.

[Alan Sisto]

Right.

[Matt]

So that was, that was a big improvement because I, I think in season one, the. The one that I point to is Bronwyn where she says, you know, the light. The light about, like, from Sam, you.

[Alan Sisto]

Know, Sam Star line.

[Matt]

The Sam Star line. Yeah. And it's, it's so, you know, the, the contrast there, it's like, oh, okay, well, that's definitely a talking line because that's just way too beautiful than anything I've ever heard so far in season.

[Alan Sisto]

But that's the thing is it stands out too much as being unlike the rest.

[Matt]

There's no confusion. There's no confusion for, like, where did.

[Alan Sisto]

This gem come from? Right.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think it is improving. And like I said, that Celebrimbor moment, I'll Go back and just watch that scene. Cause that scene is really good.

[Alan Sisto]

I will also say the scene with the Durin's as Durin, the elders about to take on the Balrog, there's some really strong dialogue there too. I can't recall it off the top of my head precisely. But of course it's not out of Tolkien. And that's the challenge. They're not adapting existing material. And that is. That does make it hard, in fairness.

[Matt]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Alan Sisto]

All right. Well, we could go on forever on this stuff. In fact, we probably will. But for now, folks, that wraps it up for another episode of the Prancing Pony podcast. Please be sure to come back next week when we've had one Battle of the Fords of Ice. And yes, what about second Battle of the Fords of Ice and I don't think he knows about that, Pip.

[Matt]

I don't think he knows about that. Well, they're about to after next episode.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. That's right. Yes. You're going to know soon enough.

[Matt]

Well, folks, Alan and I want to thank the members of Team PPP editor Jordan Rannells, Barlum and Becca Davis, Social media manager Casey Hilsey, Event and Patreon community coordinator Katie McKenna, graphic artist Megan Collins and website guru Phil Dean.

[Alan Sisto]

Now, please take a minute to check out the prancingponypodcast.com it's where you'll find show notes, outtakes, Prancing Pony Ponderings, our online storefront where you can get PPP merch. And that includes all the great episode artwork that Megan's been doing for the show over the last couple of seasons.

[Matt]

You'll also want to visit our library page. The Prancing Pony Podcast is, after all, a podcast about the books. So if you're interested in a book we mention on the show, you'll find a link for it in our library. We do get a small amount of compensation when you make your purchase and we thank you for that.

[Alan Sisto]

And we also want to thank our patrons at the cir dance contribution tier. I'll start with Demay in Alaska, Chad in Texas, Lance in Jersey, Paul in Colorado, Joseph in Michigan, Kathy from North Carolina, Carlos in California, Brian in the uk, Jerry from Washington, Joe in Washington, Irwin from the Netherlands, Ben in Minnesota, Anthony in Texas, Zaksu in Illinois, Sarah in New Jersey, Joshua in Massachusetts, Lucy in Texas, Keith in Alabama, and Erica in Texas.

[Matt]

There's also Carson in Oklahoma, Vivian in California, James in Massachusetts, Anne Dan in Kentucky, Sean in New Jersey, Mason in California, Maureen from Massachusetts, Olivia in London, Robert in Arizona, Nick in Wisconsin, Lewis in South Carolina, Thomas in Germany, Craig in California, Bailey in Texas, Kevin in Massachusetts, Julie in Washington, Bruce in California, Joe in Maryland, Nathan in Arizona, and Kevin in Pennsylvania. Thank you all so very much for.

[Alan Sisto]

Your support in indeed. Thank you.

[Matt]

Make sure you don't miss any episodes of the Prancing Pony Podcast. Subscribe now through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app.

[Alan Sisto]

And one last thing. As always, don't forget to send your thoughts, comments, and most of all, please your reinforcements for the Fords of Eisen to bartleman@the prancingponypodcast.com Just make sure they're dismounted.

[Matt]

And if you want your voice literally heard, well, just send us audio audio of your question. Visit podinbox.com prancingponypod and record your question for us. Please be sure to still email the question to Barlaman, though.

[Alan Sisto]

That's right. Now. Even though Barlaman's been a lot more reliable lately, there is still a lot of mail to sort through. We'll try to get to you just as soon as we're able. As always, though, this has been far too short a time to spend among such excellent and admirable listeners.

[Matt]

But until next time, this is the end. We are going. We are leaving now. Goodbye.